The Iskcon position paper issue

[shvu]

 

http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/critics.shtml

 

In connection to this, also check out the last message in the Mailing list on the web site.

 

Cheers

 

[Ananga]

That website raises some important issues. GM/ISKCON do try to get a lot of mileage with the purported connection with Madhvacaraya, despite the tenuous nature of such claims of that being an earlier branch that Gaudiya Vaishnavism is derived from.

[shvu]

 

In the past, some iskconites stated that Chaitanya accepted Madhva's teachings in full and "improved" upon them. These discussions used to go on in the dvaita forum, ah, srv, etc. Obviously there was a lot of misunderstanding here. This raised a need to come out with a paper clarifying the positions of the two schools.

 

Cheers

 

[kailasa]

>But Tattvavâda holds that only devotion can get Mukthi and never dvesha or hatred for God,

It materialistik to think that the God frees only those who worships it (him). Unfortunately to me is difficult (complex) to understand the majority of the text. Their philosophy following, here in a material world so much people is held parent and matrimonial attitudes (relations), but in a spiritual world it is not present. Is not present, is not present, is not present. Girlfriend for the God? Never! Only for me. Parent, matrimonial of the attitude (relation), it maya (just as for impersonalist the spiritual form (shape) it too maya),

 

Actually it is a part of the concept or the rests envy.

 

[Guest guest]

In the past, some iskconites stated that Chaitanya accepted Madhva's teachings in full and "improved" upon them.

 

"The Siksastakam slokas are authentic, and they are more important than the Vedas, Upanisads, and

other sastras. I think that they are even more important than the Srimad Bhagavatam. We can say that Srimad Bhagavatam is the bhasya, commentary, of the Siksastakam. This is so because Sri Siksastakam was spoken - by whom? It was not spoken by Vyasa, who is only kala, an incarnation. It was spoken by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the source of all incarnations. Sri Siksastakam should be considered to be the most important sastra and superior to all others."(Sri Narayana Maharaja, the most prominent Gaudiya leader nowadays, Lecture at Alachua, FL. may 2001)

 

This statement vanish forever any hope that one may have that Gaudiyas may really follow any of Madhva's teachings.

 

Gaudiyas are a Tantric order and not a Vedanta's school.

 

[Guest guest]

"We should discuss these eight slokas (Siksastakam) of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, according to the explanations of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Then you can understand something. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained everything about the name." (Sri Narayana Maharaja, the most prominent Gaudiya leader nowadays, same lecture at Alachua, FL. may 2001)

 

Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda was the Gaudiya theologian from last century who made the shape of the Gaudiya's sect in the present, including Iskcon. He has written and published many books on theology, including "Sri Caitanya Upanisad." He fond a single copy of that manuscript, he has published it and the original has disappeared forever, and no one else could ever seen it.

 

This Caitanya Upanisad (linked to Atharva Veda, according to Bhaktivinoda ) is the main sastric proof of Sri Caitanya's divinity present by Gaudiyas even nowadays.

 

If Siksastakam is to be considered more important than all sruti and smrti, superior than all sastras, one who may give explanations on it is to be consider greater than Vayasa, and for certain may compile his own Upanisads. What is the necessity of the old and dark Sri Krsna Dvapayana Vayasa?

 

[Puru Das Adhikari]

Sri Madhavacarya & Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

 

By Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja

 

Pujyapada BV Tirtha Maharaja Q&A

 

Recently there has been some discussion on the internet (see also VNN Story 6750) regarding the statements of the Sri

Madhavacarya Sampradaya's website wherein they are not accepting Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in their line. They say the

sastric evidence we use to support our position is invalid. One devotee following the discussion asked Maharaja to comment.

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Jayatah!

 

You inquired about some persons who do not accept the Gaudiya Sampridaya in the line of

Sri Madhavacarya. I think they surely do not understand the mood of Madhavacarya. Nor do

they understand the philosophy of Sri Madhavacarya. They are surely blind men. Have they never seen the Deity established by Sri Madhavacarya Bala Krsna, Sri Nartak Gopal? He did not establish Laksmi Narayana Deities. He served Vraja vilasi Sri Krsna only. He wrote Sri Vedanta Bhasya,Brhad Brahma sutrabhasya. He wrote Srimad Bhagavatam commentary, and there he is giving many verses from many other sastras to support the Srimad

Bhagavatam.

 

At this time in India, there are many sastras that have not been seen for many years. But, I donot disbelieve their existence or authenticity because I have not seen them. I have not seen Sriman Madhavacarya. I was not

there to watch him write, but I am repeating, a disciple of his sampradaya. What is the meaning of Narayan tattva and what isthe meaning of Sri Krsna tattva - they do not know. The difference between opulence and sweetness they cannot understand, they cannot see. Surely they have never seen or understood the mood of Gaudiya Vasinava books. So they are talking like this,

with this mood. Their thinking is like someone saying that although my forefather was a president I accept him as police officer only. I am a great man so I am preaching my conclusion!

 

My dear friend you can see yourself what Srila Jiva Gosvamipada has said in his Sat Sandharbas and all the books of our Gosvamis. In the Srimad Bhagavatam we find only Krsna lila. And the 24 avataras- all are incarnations of the Supreme Lord,Sri Krsna. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is the Supreme Lord. Brahma prayed to him, calling him Narayan. Sukadeva Gosvami said, Sri Visnu is playing in Rasa Lila with the Vraj Gopis. Sri Krsna is Visnu, Narayana, He is all in all.

 

In Kali yuga, Sri Krsna is manifested in His form as Mahaprabhu. He tastes his own unatta-ujjvala rasa. He revealed His rasa

raja mahabhava form to Raya Ramananda in Godavari. He showed His sad-bhuja, six armed, form to Sarvabhauma Bhathacarya. And many other devotes saw Mahaprabhu exhibit the forms of many different avataras. All sages, Gaudiya Vaisnavas, they have experienced, realized, and have told everything. "But, I don't accept them." But who will accept you? Our necessity is to understand all sastras, guru, and vaisnavas. What they are saying we accept, in this line.

 

Jaya Sri Radhe!

 

Tridandi Swami Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 06-28-2001).]

[shvu]

 

 

http://www.dvaita.net/pdf/iskcon.pdf

 

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_40/msg00084.html [user name = password = dvaita]

 

Now the Pejavara Swamiji has come to know about the dream sequence from the navadvipa dham and this is his response. For those who are not aware of what the dream sequence is, please read the navadvipa dham mahatmya.

 

It is about a 19th century person (from west bengal) going back in time and seeing a 16th century person going back in time and appearing in a dream of a 13th century person.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-29-2001).]

[Puru Das Adhikari]

 

The unfortunate position of nondevotees

 

3. 77

bhagavad-bhakti-hinasya jatim sastram japas-tapam

apranasyaiva dehasyama gunam loka-ra-janam

sucim sad-bhakti-diptagni-dagdha-durjati-kalmasam

svapako'pi budhaim slaghye na veda-j-o'pi nastikam

For onne who is devoid of transcendental devotion to Sri Krsna, his knowledge of scripture, his japa and chanting of mantras, as well as all his austerites are simply decorations on a dead body. For one who takes to pure devotional service, all the reactions of his past sinful life are burned to

ashes. In this regard, the outcaste is equal to the highly learned who also take to this path. But those who refuse to surrender, the atheists and agnostics, will remain ignorant of the real conclusions of the Vedas, and get no credit for all their study. (Hari-Bhakti-Sudhodaya 3.11.12)

 

Pure devotion to Sri Gauranga is best of all

Nondevotees, karmis, jnanis, and yogis are all cheaters who are cheated out of life's goal.

 

3. 78

kriyasaktan dig dig vikatatapaso dhik ca yamena

dhigastu brahmaham vadana-pariphullan jadamatin

kimetan socamo visaya-rasa-mattan-narapasun

na kesa-cil-leso'py ahaha milito gaura-madhunam

Woe to the smarta brahmanas, who blindly follow the Vedic rituals! To hell with those who unnecessarily practice harsh penances. Woe to those who try to control the mind and senses by following the eightfold yoga system. Woe to those who imagine that they have become liberated simply by saying "aham brahmasmi: I am God." Woe to those whose voices are filled with the flowery words of dry speculation. Why should we lament for these animals in the guise of men?

They are intoxicated by the taste of things other than Krsna. We lament because, alas - they havenot tasted even a tiny drop of the nectar from the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga.

(Caitanya-Candamrta 32)

 

Without devotion to Sri Gauranga, one's "knowledge" of the scriptures is foolish nonsense

 

3. 79

acaitanyam-idam visvam yadi caitanyam-isvaram

na vidum sarva-sastra-jna hyapi bhramyanti te janam

Great scholars of the scriptues who do not accept Sri Gauranga as the Supreme Personality of Godhead are forced to wander aimlessly throughout this universe of dead matter. Their so-called knowledge of the scriptures will be useless to them. Birth after birth, they will wander from one

planet to the next, propelled by their pious and impious acts. (Caitanya-Candamrta 37)

 

Without the mercy of a devotee of Sri Gauranga, everything is impossible.

 

3. 80

tavad-brahma-katha vimukti-padavi tavan na tikti-bhavet

tavac-capi visrnkhalatvamayate no loka-veda-sthitim

tavac-chastra-vidam mitham kalakalo nana-bahir-vartmastu

sri-caitanya-padambuja-priyajano yavan na drg gocaram

As long as one has not seen a pure devotee of Sri Gauranga Maharabhu, he will be engaged in

tasting bitter talks about the impersonal path of liberation. As long as one has not seen a devoteeof Sri Gauranga, he will be bound by social and Vedic conventions, blindly following formalities and traditions without understanding their purpose. As long as one never sees one of the beelike devotees addicted to drinking the nectar from the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, he will be forced to walk in endless circles on the labyrinthine paths of dry Vedic scholarship, wasting valuable time in useless discussions on futile religious practices. (Caitanya-Candamrta 19)

Thus ends the third jewel of the Gaudiya Kanthahara, entitled, Vaisnava-Tattva

GAUDIYA KANTHAHARA

 

According to the Bhagavad-gita (2.42, 7.15), mistaken mundane educators are known as veda-vada-rata and mayayapahrta-jnana. They may also be atheistic demons, the lowest of men. Those who are veda-vada-rata pose themselves as very learned in the Vedic literature, but unfortunately they are completely diverted from the purpose of the Vedas. In the Bhagavad-gita (15.15) it is said that the purpose of the Vedas is to know the Personality of Godhead, but these veda-vada-rata men are not at all interested in the Personality of Godhead. On the contrary, they are fascinated by such fruitive results as the attainment of heaven.

 

. . .As stated in Mantra One, we should know that the Personality of Godhead is the proprietor of everything and that we must be satisfied with our allotted portions of the necessities of life. The purpose of all Vedic literature is to awaken this God consciousness in the forgetful living being, and this same purpose is presented in various ways in the different scriptures of the world for the understanding of a foolish mankind. Thus the ultimate purpose of all religions is to bring one back to Godhead.

But the veda-vada-rata people, instead of realizing that the purpose of the Vedas is to revive the forgetful soul's lost relationship with the Personality of Godhead, take it for granted that such side issues as the attainment of heavenly pleasure for sense gratification--the lust for which causes their material bondage in the first place--are the ultimate end of the Vedas. Such people misguide others by misinterpreting the Vedic literature. Sometimes they even condemn the Puranas, which are authentic Vedic explanations for laymen. The veda-vada-ratas give their own explanations of the Vedas, neglecting the authority of great teachers (acaryas). They also tend to raise some unscrupulous person from among themselves and present him as the leading exponent of Vedic knowledge. Such veda-vada-ratas are especially condemned in this mantra by the very appropriate Sanskrit words vidyayam ratah. Vidyayam refers to the study of the Vedas because the Vedas are the origin of all knowledge (vidya), and ratah means "those engaged." Vidyayam ratah thus means "those engaged in the study of the Vedas." The so-called students of the Vedas are condemned herein because they are ignorant of the actual purpose of the Vedas on account of their disobeying the acaryas. Such veda-vada-ratas search out meanings in every word of the Vedas to suit their own purposes. They do not know that the Vedic literature is a collection of extraordinary books that can be understood only through the chain of disciplic succession.

One must approach a bona fide spiritual master in order to understand the transcendental message of the Vedas. That is the direction of the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12). These veda-vada-rata people, however, have their own acaryas, who are not in the chain of transcendental succession. Thus they progress into the darkest region of ignorance by misinterpreting the Vedic literature. They fall even further into ignorance than those who have no knowledge of the Vedas at all.

 

HDGACBSP

Sri Isopanisad

Purport Sloka 9

 

)

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by shvu:

 

 

http://www.dvaita.net/pdf/iskcon.pdf

 

 

Shvu,

 

Could you explain why the signature on the letter is a graphic cut and pasted from another letter? Have a look for your self. The entire letter was electronically produced. It is not a real letter printed on a letter head. This does not necessarily mean the letter is fake, but it was never signed nor written by the Swamiji. We will find out whether it was authorized by him.

 

It is just very odd that someone would cut and paste a signature onto a letter. Just have a look at the color of the background around the square signature graphic and the adjoing letter paper. You may have to look closely because the shade of grey in the signature is very close to the white background, but clearly different.

 

The same is the case with the letter head picture of Udupi Krishna. Someone cut and pasted the signature and letter head, and then merged them in Adobe Acrobat writer.

 

I wonder if the swamiji did that? Maybe he's a computer wiz.

 

 

[shvu]

 

Sorry, I cannot. I cannot explain the content of the dvaita.org because I am not aprt of that team, just like I cannot ask you to explain the content of gosai.com. I did examine the pdf closely, but my untrained eye found nothing suspicious. Of course, that does not mean that you are wrong. However the question is, what will your reaction be if it is authentic? I have a feeling nothing will change (of course, I may be wrong). We support others so long as their position does not threaten our own.

 

So what is important? the truth or defending our own position at all costs? This is rhetorical and am not seeking an answer.

 

Cheers