Jagat's old kirtan rant

[Jagat]

<font color=1238E23>This is a follow-up to my postings earlier today (6-24-01, 4:59 and 5:37a.m.) on the <a href=http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000013.html>Rathayatra cycle</a> thread. <hr></font>

 

<h3>Spiritual experience and the function of the temple</h3>

 

I had the opportunity to reflect a little more on the posting I made this morning. I was wondering what exactly in the R. K. Das's comments that made me think of Iskcon. It comes down to “they don’t seem to know anything about religious experience.”

 

What makes the temple come alive is the experience of the living god. If no religious experience is conveyed to the visitor, then there is little chance that a temple can remain alive forever.

 

So what are the fundamentals of spiritual experience? That’s not hard to answer, from the Hindu viewpoint – you need to be situated in sattva-guna. Now I think that many of us have a mistaken conception about sattva-guna. We expect that it should be a permanent state before we can start having spiritual experience. This is not so.

 

Basically, we are constantly fluctuating between the three modes of existence. Sattva means attentiveness or receptivity. If you are buffeted by desire and distaste, you cannot be receptive to learning of any type, what to speak of spiritual experience. But the essence of the Sanskrit teachings on rasa are that without sattva-guna, you can’t experience the rasa of poetry, drama or music. So there is definitely a parallel between these experiences and that of religion, as Rupa Goswami showed.

 

Now, rather than developing on this parallel, most Iskcon centers play it down. Most kirtan seems stuck in a strange time warp going back to the 70’s. I know this is not always true, but in many cases, most of the best musicians left the movement. The death of the famous traveling road show was really what caused this particular cookie to crumble.

 

So, for the Montreal temple, anyway (I may certainly be wrong about others), we are still in the mode of clang as hard as you can, jump up and down, and so on. No wonder Yati Maharaj complained about the dancing Westerners at Prabhupada’s Madras program! His question was, “Are these people having genuine spiritual experience, that they are jumping up and down like that?”

 

Of course, dancing can be a <u>means</u> as well as the end. But Yati Maharaj may well have perceived something other than sattvik qualities underlying the kirtan. I do remember occasions when the Iskcon Mayapur temple was invited to participate at Harinam Yajnas in West Bengal. This didn’t happen too often, and it is not surprising. One time we went charging in at prime time, after a professional group had done their number, with the idea that we were going to show them what the ecstasy of the Holy Name was all about. We went clanging away, roaring like elephants and dancing like heavy footed stampeding rhinoceroses. Talk about beating people over the head with a hammer. I don’t think that this is really the way the Holy Name works.

 

You have to hear the Holy Name. Shouting it louder doesn’t necessarily mean that people are going to hear it, because it is likely that they will stop listening. Their receptors will close down. Why not use music to penetrate the defenses of the listener? Vishwanath Chakravarti says that until someone has reached the stage of ruchi, the beauty of the music matters. So why do so many temples act as though it doesn’t?

 

We condemn professional reciters of the Bhagavata because they do it for money. But should not someone who does it for the glory of Krishna do it even better than the self-interested professional? There are techniques of speaking; they are perhaps artificial, but they are means for eliciting a response from the audience. It is all technique, but shouldn’t you master the technique if you want to achieve the goal, which is to transmit your message?

 

The same applies to the Jagannath Puri temple. The Pandas are mostly in a bind. They probably still do a lot of things right: the fundamentals of the puja and the festivals, the Maha Prasad, etc., are solid. But they think they can get by on propaganda alone. The Skanda Purana and the other Sthala Purana texts were in part written to drum up business for the tirtha sthan. Puri had its missionaries, who went from village to village to attract people to come to Puri to buy their wares of liberation, bath in the ocean, shraddha to the forefathers, etc., etc. Everybody came to accept that they should go on pilgrimage to Puri at least once, just to see Lord Jagannath. But as R. K. Das so rightly points out, the Pandas often ruined the experience of the pilgrims, not just by robbing them blind of money, but by robbing them of the moment to drink in Lord Jagannath's vision -- another kind of blinding.

 

They did not think about optimizing the pilgrim’s experience so that they would get customer loyalty. It was skin him alive and leave him for dead. Who cares if he ever comes back? It was the maths who did most of the client cultivating over the ages. If they hadn’t, who knows if after one of those Muslim raids, the Orissan people would not have just let the shop close down for good.

 

In the long run, the character of the preacher, his or her personal qualities, probity, sense control, etc., all matter the most. But this does not mean that the mission has the right to neglect the techniques of congregational spiritual life. One who is alone can do as he or she likes. When one participates in a community, then one has to develop the techniques that make it possible for that group of people to experience spiritual life as a communion of souls. When this happens, it is more powerful than individual spiritual practice, but it requires a high level of art.

 

When I hear Gurumayi Chinmayananda of the Siddha Yoga Foundation do kirtan, I think that she has got the idea. How come a Mayavadi does better kirtan than Iskcon? Because she starts slow and builds up for an hour. The tune doesn’t change every two seconds. You get sucked into its hypnotic quality. Listen to the first record Prabhupada made. It is a lot like that -- the same, easy tune, over and over again, with only differences in intonation. The harmonium and sitara droning in the background. Only one or two small kartals and the mridanga.

 

It doesn’t build up to a crescendo in two minutes and then burn out, quickly build up and burn out again repeatedly until everyone just gets disgusted and quits. Have you ever been to an Iskcon kirtan where half the congregation didn’t walk out and go down to the prasadam hall to gossip while a half a dozen die-hards went on bashing away in the temple room?

 

If you get the chance, go and check out professional kirtan singers in Bengal. At first I was turned off by some of the external features of the kirtan – the dressing up, the long hair, the betel stained teeth, the smoking between sets, etc. But when I started to get into and saw what they were doing, I became quite impressed. In Bengal, they slow the name right down until one repetition of the Maha Mantra may take a couple of minutes to complete. Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math mock them, as though chanting 800 mantras will somehow have a greater effect on the soul. But if someone looks you in the eyes and chants the mantra prayerfully, it has a tremendously powerful effect. It has to take a great amount of surrender to do what those guys do. Denigrate it as performance – as the power of performers in modern culture indicates, performance is not a negligeable talent.

 

To some extent, <u>it is <font size=2>all</font> performance,</U> like Shakespeare said, whether you play the role of sadhu or sinner. When we become pompous and take our role for reality, we end up looking foolish. I am not a sadhu, I am playing the role of a sadhu in the best way I can, in the hope that one day I may become one. It’s when you give up hope and you are caught in a particular dress, in a role you have ceased believing in, and you simply try to exploit it for the basest reasons that you turn into a mockery of human life.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

I can see what you mean. Often times I see a certain immaturity among some devotees during kirtan. Too often they are trying to attract attention to themselves through their dancing, or singing. I think you can tell the spiritual maturity of devotees simply by watching them in kirtan. Not all are like that, actually most aren't, but still there is a somewhat large percentage. I remember a few months ago, an old Prabhupada disciple led kirtan in my temple. He's a rtvik (not that that matters) but his kirtan was very moving. Very old tunes. Nothing fancy. Just the prayers to Srila Prabhupada, Hare Krsna, Pancha-tattva prayers etc.... But at certain points I almost started to cry. Partly this was due to the old sounding, simplicity of his kirtan. A bit of nostalgia. There is a difference between maturity in kirtan and formalism. Just as there is a difference between immaturity and spontaneous devotion.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra]

Just wanted to make one other point. This deals with formalized kirtan. For me personally, I tend not to like the formalized professional kirtaneers. Atleast the ones I've heard. They seem to be working too hard at pulling at the emotions, but for me tend to come off as very hollow. Atleast the one's I've heard. If you want to hear some great kirtan check out a recording on this site by Srila Gour Govinda Swami. I believe it is Jaya Gopala in the Audio section. What I like about Srila Gour Govinda Swami's singing, is that sometimes the beats are off, or he is shouting practically etc... but it is so much fun to listen to. Nothing formalized, and not immature. Just great kirtan.

 

Gauracandra

[Jagat]

Actually I agree with you about the "pulling at the emotions."

 

I went to the temple for the Sunday feast. It's too late to retract everything I said above, but I would like to say that the atmosphere was very nice at the temple today.

 

The nice young lad who gave the Gita class time led the kirtan and did a much better job of it than he did of giving class.

 

Jagat

 

[dasanudas]

Kirtan is a vast and variegated topic Basicly I feel it's in the heart of the sadhaka, but the variations are intrigueing, what is milk to one may well be toxic to another.

 

I remember talking to Madhumangala Prabhu the blind kirtan leader in Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math. Who Achutananda prabhu learned many of the original Iskcon kirtans from. Madhumangal was very familiar with most of the Navadwip sound vibration due to him intensely listening, to compensate for his lack of sight. Much of the time you could hear kirtan parties broadcasting their different moods thru the atmosphere, sometimes for days on end seemingly sweet harinam would rise and fall in waves of jubilation, and then level into soft and gentle musical expertise. Not knowing much about where it was coming from and being charmed by the sweet sound we would often approach Madhumangala to ask what his view was. Most every time we got the same reply

"bogus," even tho at times it even sounded far more enlivened and sweeter than our own kirtan. The consideration was from the devotional point of view. Where the mood of separation, union and enjoyment are to be traced.

It made me wonder where I'm really coming from. As I tended to like soothing ragas and appreciated the classical musicians of India, even ghazals, and other forms of traditional raag. But the paradox in me is I also love to dance in tumultuous kirtans with 6 mrdangas and 20 karatahls, till we drop, and the drummers hands can't take any more. Where babies and the elderly are drawn into the deafning intensity that breaks thru all those preconceived mental barriers, 'Oh no, not kirtan again'. .where the males are wet with perspiration and the ladies are (udelling?) with joy.

It does happen when everyone is connected and having fun, this is what we came to KC for; a happy family, happy to see everyone else happy in the holy Names.

It still comes down to 'no hard and fast rules.'

I used to chant with someone they called 'the sandman' because he put everyone to sleep. Then we also had a balancing energy in our sanga I called 'panchajanya' because they woke the dead.

Anyway one day I took a tape of Siddha Swarup Ananda called Mantra Electric to Madhumangala and asked him to listen to it, in his walkman thinking he may not be able to relate to the symphony of western arranged music with kirtan. When I returned the following day he was still listening attentively, I asked what he thought. And his answer was '1st class' Mixed content but 1st class.And he's a pure traditionalist in the mood of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur.

Still we went to a travelling Iskcon sankirtan program a few weeks back and the kirtan definately was'nt together, but still over 100 new people happily joined in probably not knowing any difference. Yet seemed to be tasting something they probably never encounter anywhere else in life.

I kind of lost the point I was meaning to make here, maybe it will show another time.

Gaura Hari Gaura Hari.

 

 

[SaRup]

 

To some extent, <u>it is <font size=2>all</font> performance,</U> like Shakespeare said, whether you play the role of sadhu or sinner. When we become pompous and take our role for reality, we end up looking foolish. I am not a sadhu, I am playing the role of a sadhu in the best way I can, in the hope that one day I may become one. It’s when you give up hope and you are caught in a particular dress, in a role you have ceased believing in, and you simply try to exploit it for the basest reasons that you turn into a mockery of human life.

 

 

[atma]

For me nothing compare to Srila Prabhupada's bhajans and kirtans. The potency and devotion in his voice is amazing to say the least.

[BDas]

Dear Jagat,

 

I'm sorry but I do not think this is your best work and it may be an example of over-objectivity.

 

I can only say that I am reminded of the story of Sridhar Maharaja, Puri Maharaja and the song Sri Rupa Manjari Pada.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddanta indicated he was interested in the quality of devotion and not the sweet tune.

 

Professionals and others may have the sweet tune but the bhaktas regardless of thier affiliation or position have the devotion.

 

Yes, persons like Yati Maharaja have a right to comment and their comments are valid. But when Prabhupad was here he would defend his disciples against such comments while at the same time correcting them if need be. Prabhupad was very protective of Iskcon and because of criticism became to some degree an isolationist. Now continuing in that vein Iskcon will go it's own way.

 

Those of different missions will do kirtan and other things differently and souls will connect with a mission according to their elegibility. You understand this beter than almost anyone and that is why I think this is not among your best work.

 

With Respects, Brahma

 

P.S. I love all your Puri material

[kailasa]

There is any judgement about kirtana Aindra Prabhu?

 

 

[Maitreya]

Devotion over professionalism wins everytime.But I share some of Jagat's feelings.

 

Of course it is all personal taste I guess.

 

I like nice simple tunes that don't change often.Maha-mantra can just keep going on and on.No need to change up every few minutes.

 

Simple not overly stylized.

 

When the kartals drown out the name its a problem.I used to hide the temple whompers, but they were always found.The name must remain prominent.Everything else is meant to accompany the name.

 

One thing that drives me crazy is on Sunday feast chanting of various bhajans etc. that the guests are not likely to know.They are left kind of standing there watching.I know that's good too but so much effort to bring them there to teach them primarily the Hare Krishna maha-mantra.Inclusion is the whole idea behind preaching.

 

I know the love feast is for everyone but maybe its more for the new folks.

 

I'm not trying to criticize.I hope it's not taken that way.I never have lead kirtans as my singing is something like..well its pretty bad, so I'm happy whenever anyone else steps up.

 

MC

[Jagat]

Haribol Brahma Prabhu,

 

Dandavats. Actually, I went to the temple on Sunday and had a very nice time. The same young devotee who gave the Gita class I was talking about in my rant led the kirtan. It was definitely an Iskcon kirtan, but it left me feeling warm and pleasant, which is good enough for me.

 

Vishwambhar gave the Gita class and it was short and direct. He did not quote any Sanskrit verses, which was good for me, because I can't stand to hear Sanskrit butchered.

 

There was a Bharata Natyam dance after the class, which went over very well. The prasad was good and the atmosphere in the prasad hall very convivial. Funnily enough, the usual crowd that attended the Montreal feasts seems to be gone. I guess they have all gone "ritvik." I haven't been to a Sunday feast at the ritvik temple, so I can't compare, but perhaps their departure from the scene here has taken away some of the tension that was in the air.

 

Anyway, Vishwambhar seems to provide a kind of stability. He has been around the block a little in his KC life and he exudes a certain mellowness and simplicity that seems to have permeated the entire temple.

 

I counted about 135 people, of which 40% were of Indian origin.

 

It's basic Iskcon, nothing fancy, but seems at least to be back on track.

 

Haribol again,

 

Jagat

[dasanudas]

Dear Kailasa Prabhu,

Just a short invitation if you per chance can find Srila Govinda Maharaj and his travelling sankirtan party who should be in Russia at present, there are many wonderful sincere vaisnavas in his company from various countries. I can only hope that you connect with his affectionate sanga.

Srila Govinda Maharaj's kirtans are truly out of this world. He grew up in a vaisnava family hearing all the uncountable vaisnava bhajans of Srila Jayadev Goswami, Chandi das, Govinda das, Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur, Srila Narrotama das, Sur das, Tuka Ram, Chandrasekara so many since childhood from his father who was also a professional singer in west Bengal, also he is a 1st class musician to boot.

And then when he was in his teens he spent many years living in the company of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad preaching and chanting together every day. He has an endless repertoire of vasnava songs that he chants usually in Navadwip with those who are familiar. But when travelling globally he keeps to a few simple basic chants for the public. Still it is a kirtan not to be missed. I think they will be mostly in Moscow and St.Petersburg. If you can find them. Good luck.

Kailasa if you catch this post "What, in your view is happening in Russia regarding Krsna consciousness, how is it being received and how much is it spreading?"

I have heard mixed reports from different sources.

[Radharaman01]

I agree with you Jagat. Last yearI took the boat across the Ganga from Mayapura to Navadvipa and visited a temple known as the Radharani Temple. The place was real crowded and once inside I could understand why. There was an amazing kirtana going on, lovely singing and brilliant mridanga playing, those kirtaniyas teased so much feeling out of every sylable.

[Maitreya]

 

Originally posted by Jagat:

There is a bias that kirtan always has to be participatory. I think that when there are good kirtaniyas, who can hold complex tunes and extract more from the holy sound of the Name, that the less musically endowed should participate by engaging in shravan, which, last I heard, was still number one on the bhakti marg.

 

This might be nice for some bhajans in some settings.But to try to apply this to the chanting of the maha-mantra would be a huge mistake I feel.Each individual shravanam is enhanced by their own participation in kirtan.The idea is to enter in as a child crying for the Mother.Not just as a spectator.

 

That is why I agree perfectly with the above comment about Prabhupada's kirtans. I don't think anything inspired me more as a new devotee than Prabhupada's version of Sikshashtakam, with that loopy harmonium sound. Certainly we could sing along when he chanted Hare Krishna, but his bhajans were very sophisticated and not meant as "singalongs." They were meant to be listened to.

 

That's a nice example.

 

 

I am all for democracy, but when it comes to bringing delight to the Lord and His devotees, I believe that some discipline should be imposed. And that this applies to kirtan as much as to anything else.

 

So only those with nice voices by human relative calculation can please the Lord by their chanting?Only they should be allowed to chant to the Lord in the temple?Smacks of snobbery a bit.Sorry.

 

So forget that.Everyone chants.Even the children.Even a person with one of those artifical voice things you hold to your throat should sing out during kirtan.Maybe not at top amplification though.

 

Your dance example doesn't hold either.It by nature demands training.Chanting is simple.

No hard and fast rules for chanting.

 

KISS- keep it simple sadhakas

 

Chant dance and be happy.

 

 

[DayalGovinda dasa]

I agree mostly with Jagat. The point I wish to reiterate (for I think that Jagat mentioned it before) is that, for Krsna Bhaktas it is the devotion that counts in whatever we do, singing, offering bhoga, Deity worship etc but we should not use that as an excuse for being sloppy. If we are trying to imbue every action with devotion then will we not want to perform it technically correct as well? (within our capability of course)

So of course kirtan can get carried away with fancy mrdanga playing and sweet voices but if done with devotion they serve to enhance the mood.

in service

DayalGovinda dasa

[BDas]

Hari Bol to you also Jagat,

 

Another point: I believe we all saw some over the top kirtans in front of Prabhupad with roaring chanting and dancing. Prabhupad seemed pleased with this style of wild kirtan. However I do remember he stopped some of the more theatrical style dancing that was being done by Sudama and others during one Mayapur festival. Anyone else remember this?

 

Someone mentioned Aindra Prabhu. If we are talking the same Aindra than I have to say I was overwhelmed by his sincere roaring kirtans that I experianced last year at Krishna Balarama. Thumbs up for Aindra.

 

Hare Krishna,Brahma Das

[Maitreya]

Bdas,

 

Are you refering to one mayapur festival where different temples were being judged on their kirtans and some gold plated kartals were to rewarded as the trophy?

[Jagat]

MC,

 

I was there. It was rigged! You KNEW it was going to be an Iskcon group that would win, right? It was Satsvarupa Prabhu who won, as I recall.

 

No, basically Brahma Prabhu, you are right. It's a question of taste. And there are obviously many fans of the roaring kirtan out there. I used to be fairly enthusiastic too, in my testosterone days. I tend to appreciate a more contemplative mood nowadays.

 

I like what Santosh does, with a pretty traditional Hindustani approach to kirtan. And Agnideva has done a nice job on his latest CD. New age influences on Kim Watters' "Darshan" (I don't know her spiritual name.) I also like Prahlad Das (Patrick Bernhardt)'s new age approach, though it might be going too far for many. I am sure there are many others out there. Anyone recommend anything?

 

 

Jagat

[Maitreya]

 

Originally posted by Jagat:

MC,

 

I was there. It was rigged! You KNEW it was going to be an Iskcon group that would win, right? It was Satsvarupa Prabhu who won, as I recall.

 

It was rigged! LOL!!! I believe it.I vividly remember becoming so embarrassed when I heard that.SOOOOOOOO Tacky.

 

On roaring kirtans its all about what motivates the roaring.Same with other styles also.

 

MC

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 06-26-2001).]

[Gauracandra]

Indradyumna Swami held kirtan at my temple a few years back and did a real nice job. One devotee in the back used an electric guitar as a sort of background humming. It was really mellow and beautiful kirtan. Also, I've been to kirtans by disciples of Narayan Maharaj, and they have been very nice.

 

As for songs, there is only one that really gets my hair to stand up on end. Its Mother Yamuna's singing of the Govindam prayers. Have you ever just sat there and listened to it? Its almost alien, very ethereal sounding. Its so beautiful, simple, and different.

 

Gauracandra

[amanpeter]

I remember being on a stage some where with the devotees and Srila Prabhupada. We were all sitting while he spoke, then as he ended the public presentation and stood up, suddenly it was as if the entire floor where we sat had become electrified! Wild dancing or what! The difference as I see it is orchestration vs. spontaneity and sincerity as opposed to show. Here in Toronto it's often difficult to follow the maha-mantra and one well-known Indian kirtan leader is really more of a solo act. Still, others seem to be enjoying, so I guess the problem rests with me. I'm with Maitreya prabhu in appreciating simple steady chanting though, hopefully from the heart, that everyone is inclined and able to participate in. I do feel, too, that the dieties should be the focus of attention while they are visible, not a tight little circle of men who appear to be competing with each other in intensity. Once I even suggested as a joke to Bhakti Marg Swami that the bottom half of his dunda pole might be marked like a ruler so he could rate the jumpers! HARI HARIBOL!!!

 

------------------

No offense meant to anyone...

[kailasa]

Hare Krisna, dasanudas. A thank for the prompt.

 

I heard Govinda Svmi, me to like, as for Prabhupada, never grows old. The spiritual teacher already in Moscow, unfortunately has failed to go.

 

>Kailasa if you catch this post "What, in your view is happening in Russia regarding Krsna consciousness, how is it being received and how much is it spreading?"

I have heard mixed reports from different sources.

 

I do not know about what it. I sometimes badly understand, though has improved Translator. Here is more and more less normal, for yours matha a good temple in St. Petersburg, I there was also many I know. In Siberia it is a lot of devoted in some cities on 400 devoted, all in Russia in ISCKON 10 000 devoted of which 5000 regular ïðèõîæàí(?). The temple in St. Petersburg ours has departed, but they continue to worship the God and we catch there occasionally. Certainly, up to a maintenance Sri Visnupada was even more, main(basic) there was, who that now in matha, whom maya Educates.

Nevertheless Russian in depth of soul want to be arranged, therefore as there is a chance, they do(make) it and. In Moscow the Indian consulate can be will help to construct a temple, there now small temple and any more does not suffice it(him). Sri Visnupad knew that it happen, I have some obvious proofs, purely on last lecture in St. Petersburg and it there was last lecture in Russia, it(he) has told it almost direct, then I have told by all " Now I shall sign by all the books Prabhupada (it(he) never it earlier so did(made), on any to the requests.)

 

And it(he) wrote to everyone a wish, and to some wrote such things, which were known only by(with) they. One devoted have deceived earlier in his(its) temple, Sri Visnupad has written to it(him) - " Look, that you would not deceive once again. "

 

It that is to go on a cross.

 

For marathon in Russia or Moscov have spread 35 Thousand of the books, not in quantity business, understandably, but nevertheless. In Russia ascetically and there are a lot of conditions for spiritual life. The danger is represented by(with) the communists and church, they almost have accepted the law against all religions except, But to act it(he) did not begin. If I have not answered, update your question please.

 

P.S. Even if there will be 20 men, as it was earlier, all of us shall begin again and again will be 20 000 .

 

[suryaz]

What makes the temple come alive is the experience of the living god. If no religious experience is conveyed to the visitor, then there is little chance that a temple can remain alive forever.

 

What do you mean by "the experience of the living god"?

 

I do not understand this bit.

 

[Jagat]

Mark Twain once said, "The devil has all the good tunes!"

 

We Vaishnavas could ask, "Why should the Sahajiyas have all the good kirtans?"

 

There are many good musicians who became devotees because of the kirtan. But somehow, their talents have never been fully utilized.

 

There is a bias that kirtan always has to be participatory. I think that when there are good kirtaniyas, who can hold complex tunes and extract more from the holy sound of the Name, that the less musically endowed should participate by engaging in shravan, which, last I heard, was still number one on the bhakti marg.

 

That is why I agree perfectly with the above comment about Prabhupada's kirtans. I don't think anything inspired me more as a new devotee than Prabhupada's version of Sikshashtakam, with that loopy harmonium sound. Certainly we could sing along when he chanted Hare Krishna, but his bhajans were very sophisticated and not meant as "singalongs." They were meant to be listened to.

 

I think there are a number of factors involved in making a good kirtaniya. Musical talent is not negligeable. Everyone should serve Krishna according to his or her talents. Look at the Devadasis in Puri. They were trained from childhood to dance and sing Gita Govinda for Lord Jagannath, so that it would be done in expert fashion.

 

As far as devotion is concerned, a lot of it comes "in the doing." A singer also reflects the devotional mood of the audience. Ask the professional Bengali kirtaniyas what they think of going to Vraj to do kirtan once a year. They will tell you that when there are exalted Vaishnavas in the sangha, then they themselves become more empowered to chant with genuine devotion. That is why they are constantly paying dandavats to the bhaktas in the audience.

 

If I complained there were too many chilis in the sabji, there were rocks in the sweet rice and the dahl was burned, or if I had said that the temple deities were dressed sloppily and that the pujari was dirty and wearing the dhoti he had slept in, no one would think that my criticism was unjustified. And I say that in full knowledge of the babaji standard set by folks like Lokanath Goswami and Vamsi Das.

 

Sure there are great exalted devotees who can't sing a note and others who carry their deities around in a dirty bag hanging around the neck, and they offer them madhukari. There's nothing wrong with that -- for a bhajananandi. A gosthyanandi operates by different standards.

 

I am all for democracy, but when it comes to bringing delight to the Lord and His devotees, I believe that some discipline should be imposed. And that this applies to kirtan as much as to anything else.

 

Jagat

<small><font color=#FFFFFF>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 06-26-2001).]

[Guest guest]

What makes the temple come alive is the experience of the living god. If no religious experience is conveyed to the visitor, then there is little chance that a temple can remain alive forever. (Jagatji)

 

Dear Jagatji;

 

For certain you admit that the religion's god , the god described by the rituals of religions and ruled by smrti, Agamas, Pañcaratra, Tantras and so on, whose forms, dhamas, associates, etc are vividly described in these texts, the qualified istadeva attained by mantras, yantras, and other religious processes should be alive to attract His devotees.

 

But here you may also infer that the philosophy's God, that is sung by sruti (Veda, Upanisada, Vedanta) texts as the Absolute Truth, who is a non-dual substance, Who is realized by seers as the Ultimate Reality and described as threefold: Brahma, Paramatma and Bhagavan according the unique and individual aspects of their own realizations, Who is largely glorified by all Vedanta's schools, Who is not attained by rituals and religious processes, etc. is a death God.

 

Is that the inference you mean? That the Upanisadic's God is a death God? Or that the religion's god that some are worshiping by now may suddenly die?