Jagat's old kirtan rant

[Jagat]

By "the living God" I mean a God of experience not one of theory. It's a Christian expression. I guess it comes out of their critique of idolatry.

[amanpeter]

As I understand it, `living God` means personal relationship BEYOND religion. Actually, Krsna prefers that we do NOT relate with Him as God, since that necessarily destroys intimacy. This unique position is available ONLY by the grace of Srimati Radharani and Her close girlfriends, whom we consider all Gaudiya-vaisnava acharyas to be. In fact, we are asked by Krsna to "Abandon ALL varieties of religion," are we not? Why then do the `trappings` of religion continue to be the main topic of discussion here? Do we truly believe that spiritual=religion? Should we not instead focus on "enlightening one another on My glories" as Krsna desires, and is His greatest glory not Srimati Radharani Herself? The question arises, do we really want a personal loving relationship with the `living God` and consequently each other, or are we after the `fruits` of religion, philosophical discussion, etc.? Your call, prabhus. JAI SRI RADHE!

 

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No offense meant to anyone...

[Maitreya]

amanpeter, please consider these staements by Bhaktisiddhanta from 100 Warnings.

 

One who is distracted by bogus philosophical conclusions about devotional service[ku-siddhanta] is not performing actual devotional service to Krishna.

 

Divine rasa can never be factually attained merely by talking of spontaneous devotion[by claiming"I am a raganuga-bhakta."]

There is benefit indeed in discussing these topics because Hari is the subject.The danger comes when the mode of passion is dominant over the mode of goodness.Then the discussions are not enlightening but competitive.

 

YS MC

[Guest guest]

By "the living God" I mean a God of experience not one of theory.

 

So, you got two different gods, one of experience and another of theory. That's indeed a curious assertive, as sruti states that "God is one; and that too without a second."

 

The religion's god thesis states that a person may have an EXPERIENCE (such as prema) starting from a BELIEF (sraddha). But without sruti basis, how one may establish that either the experience is divine or that it is not divine?

 

Schools of Vedanta who are concerned with the Ultimate Reality would never accept smrti texts such as Bhagavata Purana as conclusions of such experiences. Religious conclusions supported by smrtis are not eternal. The religion proposed by Sri Caitanya's followers is said to be the religion for the next 10,000 years. It is a temporary religion too, as many others Kali-yuga's sects. They are not supported by any sruti.

 

According to Vandanta-acaryas, a person having a BELIEF in God established by sruti goes on to experience that substantiates it or goes on to no experience at all. His statements are not meant to preclude the recognition that a BELIEF itself is an EXPERIENCE, or that one may have a valid experience on basis in a belief supported by a temporary religion's God .

 

Therefore we may agree with you that the living God of that kind of religious experience may die too.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Therefore we may agree with you that the living God of that kind of religious experience may die too.

<h1><marquee>Touche!</marquee></h1>

[Jagat]

To be honest, Satyarajji, I don't really understand what you are saying. Nor do I understand what exactly has been "touché".

 

We can juggle words, but for personalists, there is a definite difference between the theoretical god of philosophy and the God who enters and transforms our lives.

 

The meaning of the Holy Name historically is that its chanting bestowed "prema" on everyone who chanted it.

 

Now, we usually translate "prema" as "love of God," which is OK, but I don't think we can divorce it from a particular type of ecstatic experience. If you think of the Chaitanya Bhagavata where Mahaprabhu did not give "prema" to his mother because of her offences to Advaita Acharya. What was that "prema"? It obviously couldn't have been love for Mahaprabhu, because she already had that. What is clearly meant in that context is a particular type of ecstatic experience.

 

If you look at the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, you will see that Sattvikas are experienced when the mind is perfectly sattvika. The Holy Name has the power to arrest the distracting power of the senses and to invade the consciousness, which results in a transforming spiritual experience. When this happens, one becomes a devotee.

 

Now God, as you know, doesn't die. It is not because of my experience or non-experience of God that He is called "the living God." Ultimately, what this expression means is that He is a personal being who participates in your life as your dearest friend. We become aware of Him as such through the chanting of the Holy Name.

 

For me, the musical aspect of chanting is like the sugar that you put in the medicine. Of course, the Holy Name is already sweet, but if you put the Holy Name into an ugly container -- raucous, unpleasant sounding music accompanied by aggressive dancing and loud pounding on percussion instruments -- then you may succeed in destroying its appeal. What comes through then is not the living God, but the rajasik egos of the participants in the kirtan.

 

Your servant,

 

Jagadananda Das.

<small><font color=#ffffff>

 

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 06-27-2001).]

[Ananga]

An excellent topic, Jagat! Since you brought it up, here is my humble analysis of various kirtaniyas. I do not consider myself a music critic, but do have a considerable amount of formal training as a composer of classical and jazz music, and know some of the fundamentals of improvisation in ragas.

 

The late Visnujana Swami – a very strong keyboard backup to some ethereal vocals, but not very Indian sounding. In fact, his renderings were much more a form of rock n roll/raga fusion. His recordings with Acyutananda Das definitely shake down the house. Anyone know where one can obtain a copy of those?

 

Baradvaja Das – extremely authentic (especially with his South Indian bhajans). The man is an artist in every sense of the word, both in the visual arts as well as musically. Visnujana Swami was an ardent admirer of his style and emotive approach.

 

Vanamali Das Babaji – you had to be there! Hypnotic in the extreme, and that is about as good as it gets.

 

Agnidev Das – has a strong R&B quality. Extremely polished as a performer, but as in the case of Visnujana Swami – not very Indian sounding.

 

Jayasacinandan Das – very professional and relaxed.

 

To be continued…

 

[Jagat]

Dear Satyarajji,

 

I reread your post and I think I see what you are getting at here. You really are a Gatling gun of a debater. One never knows from what position you will be arguing next. It seems that every time you read another book, you get all excited and take on the position of its author. This is probably why scripture advises against reading too many books. I, of course, don't advise you in that way. I am sure that you will find some steady "sthayi bhava" some day. I hope that it is not too laced with bitter flavors, as often seems to be the case in every one of your passing philosophical fads.

 

Of course, for me, the Sruti is pretty irrelevant in this particular debate. Let us start from the premise that we all share some kind of religious experience that was mediated through the Holy Name. If someone on this forum has not had such an experience, then it is a mystery how he or she got here.

 

This experience may then be interpreted in various ways -- according to the Advaita doctrine, according to the doctrines of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, according to Freudian psychoanalytical theory, or whatever else happens to be meaningful to you. It is not impossible that someone may change interpretations according to his sanga or in an effort to deepen his understanding.

 

It is quite true that the philosophical position (or lack of one) we take will make a difference in how we understand a spiritual experience. I happen to take the theistic position as having more meaning for me.

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 06-27-2001).]

[Jagat]

Good post, Anangaji. "Not very Indian sounding." I don't know whether that needs to be a requirement. As a matter of fact, I think the opposite -- every religion has to take on the cultural attributes of its devotees. There is give and take, of course, but new age, R+B, jazz, even classical, influences can enrich kirtan and make it more glorious.

 

I agree with your assessments. Bharadraj's rendering of the Damodarashtakam sounds very Indian, but it was completely original. And very influential, as everyone likes to sing it his way. Pretty glorious.

 

[Maitreya]

All glories to the living God.Sing praises unto His name.

 

'Living God,' now how could a phrase like that be controversial amongst Vaisnava's?

[Gauracandra]

Just wanted to give a thumbs up as well to Bharadraj's singing.

 

Gauracandra

[Ananga]

Jagat Baba: I guess I was not clear in my posting. I did not intend to give anyone the impression that I feel that being 100% authentic was somehow superior from either an aesthetic standpoint or a spiritual one. I just thought it would be interesting to compare the western Vaishnava’s singing with that of the Indian born kirtaniyas.

 

At any rate, some more analyses:

 

Saccidananda Das – Hats off to his interpretation of the songs of Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur. I guess I have a particular empathy for him as a musician, since we both tend to speed up and slow down our tempos while performing, unless there is a rhythm section to keep us even. He definitely enhanced the ambience at Krsna Balarama Mandir on many occasions. His choice of studio musicians was to be applauded, particularly the flautist.

 

Paban Das Baul – If you have not heard his CD yet, it is a must. Reminiscent of our own homegrown American blue grass styles.

 

Pandit Ragunath Panigrahi – I would have to call him the Pavarotti (maybe even the Caruso) of modern raga performers. His 3 CD set of Jayadeva’s Gita Govinda is hauntingly beautiful, to say the least. This is more of the classical north Indian genre than the Bengali kirton styles, which for a purist like myself makes it stand out.

 

Hey Jagat Ji – who was that one old male alto Baba that used to lead the kirtons in Vrndavan after the lectures (I am thinking of the place where Ananta Das Baba used to give path)? That had to be some of the sweetest Bengali kirton I have ever heard.

 

 

 

[dasanudas]

Isn't it somewhat extraordinary how every culture, race and language can come from every corner of the globe, meet in a temple somewhere in India and all dance to the same song and speak the same common language of joy together. When you look into the eyes of any of the participants you can appreciate they are focussed on the same person all the others are. Who said we don't have anything in common?

Jaya sachinandana Gaura Hari

[Gauracandra]

I also wanted to mention Bahudak Prabhu as being, in my opinion, one of the best kirtaneers out there. Great voice and great musician. He could do soothing or energetic. Just reminicing on old times.

 

Gauracandra

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

I also wanted to mention Bahudak Prabhu as being, in my opinion, one of the best kirtaneers out there. Great voice and great musician. He could do soothing or energetic. Just reminicing on old times.

 

Gauracandra

Tapes of those famous kirtans are available here. Bahudak's famous LA Rathyatra tape is on the top of my play list.

[Gauracandra]

Prabhu,

 

Is there a reason I get an error message when I click on them? I was so excited to be able to hear those great kirtans again. But now it wont play

 

Gauracandra

[Guest guest]

Wow! You are correct. I had this page bookmarked from years ago, and it looks as now the links are expired. I'll email the webmasters and try to find out wazzup!

[BDas]

Dear Maitreya and all,

 

In my last post I was talking about an incident that happened I believe at the first Mayapur pilgrimage in 1973. I was there with Mahendra as the representatives of the Pitts temple.

 

IN Mayapur Gurukripa and Maduvisa led many powerful kirtans. Sudama who had been a professional dancer began to hot foot back and forth between the Vyasasana and the alter. The crowd parted like the red sea and watched sudama dance. Gurukripa joined in the fun and they danced back and forth with Sudama doing spins and many fancy moves. The croud loved it and the general chanting and dancing intensified.

 

But when Prabhupad heard what happened he put a stop to it. And said something to the effect that one should not try to show off in front of the Deity.

 

I was wondering if anyone remembered this incident and had any info or insights on it.

 

Hari Bol to you and all, Brahma Das

[Jagat]

Well, whatever happened on that day, it certainly didn't influence subsequent behavior at Mayapur. We used to do that kind of thing on a regular basis -- forming circles while one dancer did his version of a Tandava in the middle. It was great fun. I think that it was a Guru Kripa/Yasodanandan innovation.

[BDas]

Dear Jagat and all,

 

On RDTSKP we had mass gatherings usually right before the Christmas season. The busses would come together and up to 150 brahmacharies would have a big party. The meeting I remember best was held at the New Orleans temple in 1974. Looking back I can say that the kirtans at this party were more than "over the top".

 

TKG believed that if the brahmacharies got wild and crazy it would fire them up for the Christmas season. At the 1974 party Visnu Jana Swami led the longest wildest kirtans I ever witnessed. He chanted and played mrdanga while jumping, sitting, or crawling on the floor, as well as backward, foreword, and upside down. He went on for hours and appeared in bliss the entire time. Visnu Jana always overwhelmed everyone by his kirtans but during this party he had the devotees in a frenzy of mad dancing. TKG encouraged everyone to be innovative and soon the devotees were performing wild dances some known later as “the Egyptian, the Popeye, and the Off the Wall.”

 

The “Off the Wall” was literally that and during the kirtans big holes were punched into the walls by the feet of the devotees who jumped up and sprang off the walls. Vrikodara was Pres. of New Orleans and loved the kirtan and didn’t care at all about the holes in the walls. Some of our readers may not like this but he also told the women to stay out of the temple room during these kirtans so the swirling mass of brahmachari energy could manifest without concerns. And it did.

 

The memory of Visnu Jana Swami leading this mad kirtan is the one I remember most. He disappeared in Mayapur during the festival that coming March never to be seen again.

 

I will be the first to admit that this kirtan and others like it were not exactly in sattva guna but I do not believe there was any great fault in this style of chanting. It certainly had the desired effect and we all left New Orleans happy and eager to serve. We should consider that whatever inspires devotees to serve in any of their stages of development should be appreciated in some way. What inspired us once may have to be left behind in the future but still we should try to remember “The Way We Were.”

 

Hari Bol, Brahma

 

P.S. On my next post I will tell the story of VJ Swami’s “Dial a Bhajan Program”.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Jagat:

Well, whatever happened on that day, it certainly didn't influence subsequent behavior at Mayapur. We used to do that kind of thing on a regular basis -- forming circles while one dancer did his version of a Tandava in the middle. It was great fun. I think that it was a Guru Kripa/Yasodanandan innovation.

So now we see what happens by disobeying the orders of the spiritual master.

 

Thanx for the proof.

[Maitreya]

Dial a Bhajan? Come on Brahma, times up.Tell us about this.

[Ananga]

Hey Brahma Das!

 

Here is a flash from the past, but you may not remember it. During the L.A. rathayatra of 1979 I was wearing a crazy duck mask (the temple authorities had me on a 'list' at the time) to hide my identity and you kept following me around in the crowd (apparently with the intention of unmasking me). I knew you were trying to get to me, so I kept dodging off into the masses and you never succeeded in catching up to me.

 

[Jagat]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

So now we see what happens by disobeying the orders of the spiritual master.

 

Thanks for the proof.

You've got to be joking. Or just trying to get my goat.

 

Anyway, if I ever, disobeyed Srila Prabhupada (which I have) it certainly was not done on these particular occasions, at least not consciously. That was my point -- none of us had ever heard about that prohibition.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Jagat:

You've got to be joking. Or just trying to get my goat.

 

 

Neither.

 

Think about it a little more, and perhaps you will see the meaning.