Jagat's old kirtan rant

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Better be careful of Random, Jagat prabhu. He's got an anonymous friend with apparently enormous `cajones`!

 

You speculate too much, little boy. What makes you think this anonymous person is my friend?

 

Besides, even Jagat has cajones, which obviously you don't. Go run back under the skirt.

 

BTW, you sig is REALLY lame.

[BDas]

Dear Ananga,

 

I did a lot of odd things in my Iskcon days but I don't remember that one. Why were you on the list and why would I try to unmask you? I am not saying I could not have done it I just don't remember the incident.

 

Recently I came across a devotee that I always wanted to apologise to for mistreating while he was on my bus. As I apologised to him he began to apologise to me. He said he was always hoping that he would meet me to apologise. So we were thinking the same way and apologising at the same time.

 

I think apologies are good if they are sincere. There are certainly a lot of devotees out there I should apologise to.

 

I joined the movement at 18 and at 21 was in charge of a bus with 28 devotees on it. I never read Miss Manners and had no training in transpersonal psychology. I made a lot of mistakes and some of them still haunt me.

 

I hope you will forgive me for any offence I may have done to you. Sincerely, Brahma

 

[BDas]

In my previous post I wrote:

 

(In my last post I was talking about an incident that happened I believe at the first Mayapur pilgrimage in 1973. I was wondering if anyone remembered this incident and had any info or insights on it.)

 

At the time I was a new devotee less than two years in the movement. I was not privilage to all the discussions of the higher ups. I was told that sudama was told to stop dancing in that manner by Prabhupad because of the reason I gave. But I was hopeing someone else was there and could conferm or give some insight into the incident and its aftermath.

 

Sudama did stop dancing in that manner at that time but the dancing of the movement on whole seemed to get wilder as the years went on. Prabhupad seems to appreciate enthuiastic dancing but I don't remember seeing anyone do the hotfoot or some other similar gyration in front of Prabhupad.

 

So I would like to know if anyone saw any of this hotfoot stuff in front of Prabhupad?

 

Hare Bol, Brahma

[Ananga]

My Dear 4-faced one:

 

No need to apologize. You never offended me because you never caught up with me in the first place. Perhaps your intentions were to just have a casual conversation. It is just that I was not all that willing to find out at the time.

 

We always had a friendly relationship as far as I can remember. We first me on Visnujana's bus in Pittsburgh, if memory serves me.

 

As far as why I was gray-listed (as opposed to actually being black-listed) - that is anyone's guess. I never actually confronted the perpetrators.

[BDas]

Whew! Thanks, Thats one less offence I have to rectify.

 

Visnu Jana's bus in Pitts: Than you must have been with the roadshow that came through in 72. Thier last performance.

What a thrill that was!

 

How about another hint as to your real identity. Brahma

[Ananga]

Oh, lotus-born one, it was actually 1974 (the RDTSKP era), but you were close. We had some great laughs at the Washington D.C. temple. Back then you knew me as bhakta Mark and I played the musette (a Chinese version of the Indian double reed instrument called a shanai).

 

Anyways, back to kirtaniyas:

Lata Mangeshkar - a true diva! I listen to her recording w/Bhimsen Joshi (Ram Shyam Gun Gaan) all the time while driving in my SUV. It tends to transport one to a higher place and is a sure fire stress buster. The quality of her unparalleled soprano voice is like a cyrstal clear white diamond of the highest grade.

 

Another great bhajaniya was a little old sadhu that used to chant at the MahaLakshmi temple in Mumbai (Bombay). He was accompanied by harmonium and strings and I felt as though I was floating through Vaikuntha.

 

[Tarun]

Haribol BrahmA, Jagat et al,

Should we have purchased Pittsburgh Ellsworth Mandir or what?

Did PrabhupAd want that building or what?

Am I in illusion or what?

I went back there 3 yrs ago and knocked on the door.

A nice couple owns it. I asked, "Did you know that...

They said, "Yes, we've heard that this was once a Hare KRSNa temple."

Very well kept. Wrought Iron Fence still intact.

1st large annual ISKCON Mayapur festival was 1974.

A few days before 1976 Gaur-purnima, 16Mar that year, so around 11Mar76, Visnujan Svami led mangalAratrik at Mayapur festival.

Nice but something was gone. Missing.

An hour later he went on morning walk with PrabhupAd.

Ater that, we never saw him again.

We've all heard his Triveni Atma-ha story.

But have you heard this one?

2 yrs later, just after PrabhupAd's tirobhav, I drove through Houston, Texas.

(When Vayasaki interviewed me, maybe he included this story. Maybe not.)

One Radha-kanta from New VrndAvan had a foreign auto repair shop about 20 miles outside Houston. I went to see him, passed through.

Radhakanta claims the following (also verified by Sarvezvari dd of Cedarhurst, 5 towns, Long Island, NY):

A man from California pulls up and needs some auto work done.

While in RKdas' office, he notices something familiar: a Hare KRSNa painting.

He inquires: "Are you affiliated with hare Krsnas?"

RK says: "Yes, I was an active member a few years back."

"Oh, I have a neighbor who used to be a Hare KRSNa Svami. Now he's married."

"Oh really! What was his initiated name; maybe I know him."

"I don't recall his spiritual name, but I do have a photo with him in it."

He showed Radhakanta the photo. Plus hair, Shaw nuf...

One never knows, do one.

 

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by BDas:

In my previous post I wrote:

 

(In my last post I was talking about an incident that happened I believe at the first Mayapur pilgrimage in 1973. I was wondering if anyone remembered this incident and had any info or insights on it.)

 

At the time I was a new devotee less than two years in the movement. I was not privilage to all the discussions of the higher ups. I was told that sudama was told to stop dancing in that manner by Prabhupad because of the reason I gave. But I was hopeing someone else was there and could conferm or give some insight into the incident and its aftermath.

 

Sudama did stop dancing in that manner at that time but the dancing of the movement on whole seemed to get wilder as the years went on. Prabhupad seems to appreciate enthuiastic dancing but I don't remember seeing anyone do the hotfoot or some other similar gyration in front of Prabhupad.

 

So I would like to know if anyone saw any of this hotfoot stuff in front of Prabhupad?

 

Hare Bol, Brahma

Hare Krishna Brahma,

 

I came upon this this morning while looking for something else and remembering your post thought this might relate.

 

From a room conversation July 10 1976:

 

Prabhupäda: Who has introduced this peculiar dancing?

 

Hari-çauri: It just evolved. (laughs)

 

Rüpänuga: We were speaking about that the other day. It’s changed from the original dancing that you showed us to something else. Too much like the modern dancing.

 

Prabhupäda: Hmm. I think this is not good.

 

Tamäla Kåñëa: Shall I read on? “The service has become...” What way should we dance, Srila Prabhupäda? With our hands outstretched? Sometimes the devotees like to jump around. Is that all right?

 

Prabhupäda: In ecstasy one can do anything, that is another... But artificially to do something is not good.

 

Tamäla Kåñëa: But if one feels like jumping, it is all right?

 

Prabhupäda: Anything artificial is not required.

 

Rüpänuga: So running back and forth is not...

 

Prabhupäda: No, no, that should not be an artificial.

 

Hari-çauri: We don’t dance for show, we dance for the pleasure of the Deities.

 

[BDas]

Thanks Maitreya,

 

This post answers everything. Brahma

[BDas]

Hari Bol to you also Tarun,

 

You wrote

(Should we have purchased Pittsburgh Ellsworth Mandir or what?)

 

reply: Couldn't purchase because we had no money at the time and besides we were kicked out of that Grand building because of noise and zoning laws.

 

(1st large annual ISKCON Mayapur festival was 1974.)

 

Reply: Thanks, That means all the dates relating to my posts are off about a year.

 

(A few days before 1976 Gaur-purnima, 16Mar that year, so around 11Mar76, Visnujan Svami led mangalAratrik at Mayapur festival.

Nice but something was gone. Missing.

An hour later he went on morning walk with PrabhupAd. Ater that, we never saw him again.)

 

reply: I roomed with VJS, TKG, and DDS in Mayapur that festival. I did not notice a distraught VJS but later others said they did. VJS just disappeared and TKG and all thought he went into Calcutta or somewhere to get away from the politics. When he did not return after a few days TKG had me move to the former bed of VJS and because of crowding moved another Swami into our room. I was not on that famous morning walk that supposedly sent VJS to the triveni.

 

(We've all heard his Triveni Atma-ha story.

But have you heard this one?)

 

I never heard that story and I told all my stories and thoughts to Vyasaki for his second volume of RD Vilasa. I will say this:

 

After the Mayapur festival I went to SF Rathayatra and parked the bus at the site and set up our little bhajan stage at the festival gate. This was across the meadow from the big main stage.

 

Visnu Jana's mom and dad came by to see me and ask for news of VJS. I had the origional Grayhound RD bus and they asked to look around inside. They were very sad and heard so many rumors but I had no conclusive knowledge of what happened to VJS so could not tell them much or do little to comfort them. They continued to contact RDTSKP office for a few years about the whereabouts of their son.

 

If Visnu Jana Swami was alive and married than the parents did not know of it. At least for those next few years. Hare Krishna, Brahma

[Ananga]

I have to confess that I have been saving the best for last: Prabhupada's disciple Yamuna Devi. The voice of this queen of kirton is like some celestial strains falling like shimmering rain from Gokula. Govindam adi purusam - tam aham bhajami, govindam adi purusam - tam aham bhajami. I am in heaven just thinking about that recording.

 

[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-03-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-03-2001).]

[Gauracandra]

Yes, that recording is just celestial sounding. Whenever I hear it, it just sounds out of this world, almost alien.

 

Gauracandra

[Tarun]

Wasn't George Harrison playing lead guitar on that entire album?

And Paul McCartney sound engineer?

If you love ISKCON, you have to love that 7am standard.

In 1976, some sannyAsis tried to stop its playing in favor of live Brahma-saMhitA recitation.

These sannyAsis got tired of hearing the same woman chant the same 2 zlokas every morning, over and over again.

PrabhupAd may have replied in several ways to them.

One was: "It's not just one woman; many are chanting together."

Many devotees who've been humming along for 30 yrs still don't know the words.

Many devotees who know the words don't know the word meanings.

No offense intended. Just an observation.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Tarun:

Wasn't George Harrison playing lead guitar on that entire album?

And Paul McCartney sound engineer?

 

That is a good question. I'll ask him when he arrives in the SF Bay Area at the end of the month for the New Order tour. I'll see if he wants to go to Ratha-yatra, which coincidentaly is happening the same week.

[Ananga]

[begining of messages lost...]

 

I would like to express a personal opinion: That the best hope for an evil empire like ISKCON at this juncture is for the women to take over and kick out all the men. After all, it was mostly men that were behaving badly over the years.

 

[end of messages lost...]

 

>>> This message accidentally got cut up and the beginning and end got lost. If you remember what you wrote please try to repost it. The above portion is all I could recover. - Jndas

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-05-2001).]

[Ananga]

Now, back to the subject of artistic kirtons:

 

I think fireworks (which are some of the most impressive visual displays that mankind has yet produced) would be a good adjunct to Vaishnava festivals. Just picture it: Multi-colored rockets spraying out patterns in the four symbols of Visnu and other important imagery.

 

[Tarun]

Ananga: KirtanAnanda SvAmi used fireworks every year starting 1979 for his New VrndAvan Labor Day weekend festivals.

Very expert. Very impressive.

BTG PrabhupAd with one finger pointing up all lit @ sparkling.

Mountain side. You had to see it to believe it.

Hired one West Virginia family dedicated to that sort thing.

Hey Random: Is it true both Father George B & Son GWB were both on hand at Liverpool Airport's renaming ceremony in honor of John Lennon?

Or was it just a rumour? Or more like a rumble?

[Guest guest]

Possible. When was it renamed, last week? I'll check his itenary. Today is Dubya's 55th bday, he's visiting Dad in Kennebunkport.

[BDas]

The RDTSKP College Festival Preaching Program.

 

When TKG returned to the states from India in late 1973 he had the idea to introduce a new program that would revolutionize preaching. To do this he planned to team up with his old friend Visnu Jana Swami and with his preaching and management expertise along with VJS heart and mystique they would together make things happen. He also openly believed the way book distribution was going on was ruining the movement in America and he meant to introduce a better way to promote Krishna Consciousness.

 

At that time VJS traveled in an old school bus with about ten brahmacharies distributing books, visiting temples and performing sankirtan. He was well received and appreciated wherever he went and even loved by the temple presidents. When TKG joined VJS they began visiting the temples and recruiting men. Together they had much success drawing many that had been on the verge of joining the movement but needed a little impetus to do so. VJS and TKG provided that impetus with their grand plan of a bus festival preaching lifestyle and those brahmacharies who were dissatisfied or simply swept away by the idea also left the temples to join. This of course did not sit well with the temple presidents.

 

Soon TKG replaced the old school bus with a converted 1955 Greyhound. The seats were taken out of the bus and in their place was a nice temple room, kitchen and altar for Radha Damodar. The toilet in back was also removed and replaced with a shower. Small lockers for the devotees were also added. The bus was beautiful and sported a yellow and orange racing stripe and a bold Hare Krishna in front where the destination sign had been.

 

A devotee was trained to travel ahead of the bus and book festivals at college campuses.

These festivals featured amplified kirtans with Visnu Jana Swami chanting and playing harmonium while the devotees responded and played various exotic instruments. After each chanting set VJS would give a short heartfelt lecture. Along with chanting Radha Damodar was brought out of the bus and displayed. Prasadam was served and there was also a book table. Anyone who remembers Visnu Jana Swami knows how sweet his kirtans and lectures were. The students loved VJS and these festivals. TKG was also spoke in college classes on various religious and social topics. Soon a stage was added to make the kirtan more visible and a prasadam cart to make prasadam distribution cleaner and more appealing. Things were going great and proceeding according to TKG’s master plan and Dristadumna Das was recruited to lead a second bus.

 

 

Soon after DD went on the road with his bus TKG and VJS visited the Boston temple. Adi-Kesava the brahmachari president there was so impressed with RDTSKP that he joined the bus program with almost the entire brahmachari ashram of about twenty devotees. TKG then had another bus converted and given to Adi-Kesava to lead. So now with three busloads of devotees TKG felt his program was a grand success.

 

Prabhupad liked the festival/ bus program but was dissatisfied that not much in the way of book distribution was going on along with the festivals. TKG was dismayed at Prabhupads apparent dissatisfaction and pointed out to Prabhupad how many new men had joined him in such a short time. But through a number of conversations Prabhupad made it clear to TKG that he wanted his disciples to distribute his books. In order to please Prabhupad TKG then instituted an impressive BTG distribution program that he promoted along with his festival kirtans.

 

Soon RDTSKP became the biggest force for distributing BTG in the movement. RDTSKP alone distributed over 60% of BTGs printed. With this leverage TKG was able to induce BTG management to include an ad in each BTG promoting the bus/ festival program. The add featured a picture of the bus and a festival with Visnu Jana chanting and playing harmonium. The title read “Travel with advanced devotees of the Hare Krishna Movement” and “Learn to Play Ancient Indian Instruments.” These ads brought many more people to RDTSKP and by the beginning of 1975 almost every brahmachari in the movement aspired to join RDTSKP and the bus program had over a hundred devotees aboard.

 

TKG now had two more busses refurbished and recruited Kavi Chandra and myself from Tripurari Swami’s BBT airport book distribution party to lead them. Also Guru Das and Parivrajakacharya Swami joined from Canada with their own bus to bring the total to six busses and about 120 devotees. Prabhupad posed with the RDTSKP party in Chicago and the busses each were directed to zones to work in by TKG. Each bus party was had Gaur- Nitai deities to worship and was to institute the same schedule and festival/ book distribution program started by TKG and VJS. ( by 1975 the busses were also selling big books as per Prabhupads order)

 

After a mass initiation by Prabhupad in Chicago the busses went their separate ways. I was on my way to Texas (my zone) with college festivals and lectures booked all along my route. I also stopped in whatever temples I could and a number of devotees left those temples and joined my bus. The five other busses had this same scenario with more temple brahmacharies and “fringe” devotees joining the party. Needless to say the temple presidents were not happy with the Radha-Damodar traveling festival program. BDas

 

[talasiga]

how many names

can one man drop

before he sees the I?

[Ananga]

Oh yeah, that famous kirtaniya, Bob Dylan!

 

So you think name-dropping is symptomatic of an ego-trip, Tall-cool-one? I never thought of it that way, but perhaps you have a point.

 

Anyways... Back to the subject of music. I think most people do not really understand what it is that attracts them to certain genres. Outside of the functionally tone deaf individuals, most are responding to a beat they can literally dance to (hence the current popularity of the sub-genres of gangsta rap and hip-hop here in the ol' US of A). Granted, kirton falls under a whole other category entirely, since we are discussing the aesthetics involved, it might be helpful to those in the audience that do not have formal training in music theory to examine the basic components in both Eastern and Western styles.

 

There are basically two approaches to performance, irrespective of geographic regions: 1) Scripted (literally playing the notes as written on the page – or by ear if one does not read music) and 2) Improvisational. In both Eastern and Western music, these tend to be combined. In the case of the ragas, for example, it is virtually entirely improvisation within a framework or structure, without any modulation between keys. Western music has historically reached its pinnacle with respect to improvisation with the jazz artists of the 20th century, yet they still largely play around key changes that fit standard forms. Granted, Bach and Beethoven were famous for being improvisers in performance, aside for the occasional cadenzas found in concertos and other pieces, Western classical music is devoid of true improvisation (there are interpretive nuances, but the notes are played as written by the composers).

 

In considering ensembles, whether those be symphony orchestras, swing bands or Vaishnavas assembled in kirton, the tempo, rhythm, volume, etc. should be controlled by whoever is directing the performance. If an orchestra did not understand the motions of their conductor's baton and other visual cues, it would result in cacophony.

 

Then there are those that maintain that the aesthetics are secondary and that it is all one, as long as there is congregational bhajan. Sounds like mayavadi philosophy to me!

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-07-2001).]

[Ananga]

Does anyone know if that album with Yamuna singing was ever released on CD? Also, where can one obtain a copy - vinyl, cassette or CD?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Ananga:

Does anyone know if that album with Yamuna singing was ever released on CD? Also, where can one obtain a copy - vinyl, cassette or CD?

It has been on CD for more than two decades. One of the first recordings to be burned on CD.

 

Look for Radha-Krsna Temple Album. Saw it in Rasputin's (Berkeley) last year.

[Jagat]

http://www-mtl.look.ca/~xxi-21/page5.html

[Tarun]

RAdhA-DAmodar TSP was started by KIrtanAnanda SvAmI Sep1971.

15Mar1972 ViSNujan SvAmI joined KIrtanAnanda SvAmI at Atlanta festival.

TKG was India GBC.

TKG returned to USA to join VJS Summer 1974.

Karandhar took a "vacation" Jan1974.

JayatIrtha wore 3 hats Jan-Jun1974: Spiritual Sky pres, LA temple pres, West Coast GBC.

Ramezvar became BBT Trustee Jan 1974, after Karandhar left.

Karandhar returned to ISKCON Summer 1974.

He became India GBC for a few months.

He was switched to LA Spiritual Sky pres Fall 1974.

Tulasi dAs was Juhu, Mumbai temple pres.

He became LA Temple pres in Summer 1974, removing one of JT's hats, burdens.