Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Krsna Himself

[Guest guest]

We do not accept satyaraj's premise that only evidence from sruti is acceptable concerning Mahaprabhu's divnity.(Puru)

 

So, you have a Tantric god, not Hari.

 

Actually you are saktas, not real Vaisnavas, as you deny sruti.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Ananga:

Welcome to the forums, Puru!

 

I noticed that your postings are much, much shorter here than your ones on VNN.

Uh-oh. That can be fixed, I'm certain.

[Guest guest]

Here is Bhagavan Siva's opinion on Bhavisya Purana, stated in Siva-gita (Padma Purana);

 

"I influenced some of the sage that I has mentioned so that they composed Puranas contaminated by the inferior manners of the nature, where there is confusion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead as being myself. Matsya, Kurma, Linga, Siva, Skanda and Agni Puranas are in the path of the ignorance. Brahmanda, Brahmavaivarta, Markandeya, Bhavisya, Vamana and Brahma are in the path of the passion. A wise man should avoid them."

 

So, this Purana should be considered as a bona fide source of evidence on Caitanya avatara?

 

[talasiga]

FOR SATYARAJA

 

You are standing in Tomorrow's Temple

Adorned with yesteryear's garlands

Caste them off!

For they are rank with age

Reclaim your innocence

and come, empty handed

Leaving aside your offerings

Your theories on Grace

 

In Tomorrow's Temple

You are the fruit, the flower

the leaf

And don't you know

That your Falling

Is with the waterfall

Diving into the abyss of Love?

 

Talasiga

 

[Puru Das Adhikari]

Indulging sataraj's race for spiritual self destruction is a useless waste of everyone's energy. If anyone cannot appreciate the contributions of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura,

Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and our other acaryas we have little to say to them. It appears that I should follow the same advice I gave to satyaraj some months ago, to avoid useless argument with faithless persons.

 

Srila Bhaktinovda Thakurs' books are written in samadhi bhasya. If someone doubts his level of realization, his nitya-siddha status and the disciplic line that comes from his lotus feet, we are not concerned. Such is their loss. Love is never forced. Lord Krsna says in the Bg.

TEXT 15

 

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham

 

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

Bg. As It is 15.15

 

In his purport my gurudeva has written:

". . .He is not only worshipable as the impersonal Brahman, the Supreme Personality

of Godhead, and the localized Paramatma, but as the form of the incarnation of the Vedas as well. The Vedas give the right direction to the people so that they can properly mold their lives and come back to Godhead, back to home. The Vedas offer knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, and Krsna in His incarnation as Vyasadeva is the compiler of the Vedanta-sutra. The commentation on the Vedanta-sutra by Vyasadeva in the Srimad-Bhagavatam gives the

real understanding of Vedanta-sutra. The Supreme Lord is so full that for the deliverance of the conditioned soul He is the supplier and digester of foodstuff, the witness of his activity, the giver of knowledge in the form of Vedas and as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna,

the teacher of the Bhagavad-gita. He is worshipable by the conditioned soul. Thus God is all-good; God is all-merciful . . . In

all Vedic literature, beginning from the four Vedas, Vedanta-sutra and the Upanisads and Puranas, the glories of the Supreme Lord are

celebrated. By performing Vedic rituals, discussing the Vedic philosophyand worshiping the Lord in devotional service, He is attained. Therefore the purpose of the Vedas is to understand Krsna. The Vedas give us

direction to understand Krsna and the process of undertanding the ultimate goal is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedanta-sutra

confirms this in the following words: tat tu samanvayat. One can attain perfection by understanding Vedic literature, and one can understand his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead by performing the

different processes. Thus one can approach Him and at the end attain the supreme goal, who is no other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this verse, however, the purpose of the Vedas, the understanding of the Vedas and the goal of the Vedas are clearly defined."

Bg. As It Is 15.15 purport

HDGACBSP

 

In the preface to his translation of the Sri Caitanya Caritamrta His Divine Grace has also written:

 

"There is no difference between the teachings of Lord Caitanya presented here and the teachings of Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita. The teachings of Lord Caitanya are practical demonstrations of Lord Krsna's teachings. . . The Upanisads confirm that one has to penetrate the dazzling effulgence of Brahman before one can see the real face of the Personality of Godhead.

Lord Caitanya therefore teaches direct worship of Lord Krsna, who appeared as the foster child of the King of Vraja. He also suggests that the place known as Vrndavana is as good as Lord Krsna because there is no difference between the name, quality, form, pastimes, entourage and paraphernalia of Lord Krsna and Lord Krsna Himself. That is the absolute nature of the Absolute Truth.

Lord Caitanya also recommended that the highest mode of worship in the highest perfectional stage is the method practiced by the damsels of Vraja. These damsels (gopis, or cowherd girls) simply loved Krsna without a motive for material or spiritual gain. Lord Caitanya also recommended Srimad-Bhagavatam as the spotless narration of transcendental knowledge, and He pointed out that the highest goal in human life is to develop unalloyed love for Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Lord Caitanya's teachings are identical to those given by Lord Kapila, the original propounder of sankhya-yoga, the sankhya system of philosophy. This authorized system of yoga recommends meditation on the transcendental form of the Lord. There is no question of meditating on something void or impersonal. One can meditate on the transcendental form of Lord Visnu even without practicing involved sitting postures. Such meditation is called perfect samadhi. This perfect samadhi is verified at the end of the Sixth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita, where Lord Krsna says, "And of all yogis, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself, and renders transcendental loving service to Me--he is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is My opinion." (Bg. 6.47)

Lord Caitanya instructed the mass of people in the sankhya philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which maintains that the Supreme Lord is simultaneously one with and different from His creation. Lord Caitanya taught this philosophy through the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. He taught that the holy name of the Lord is the sound incarnation of the Lord and that since the Lord is the absolute whole, there is no difference between His holy name and His transcendental form. Thus by chanting the holy name of the Lord one can directly associate with the Supreme Lord by sound vibration. As one practices this sound vibration, one passes through three stages of development: the offensive stage, the clearing stage and the transcendental stage. In the offensive stage one may desire all kinds of material happiness, but in the second stage one becomes clear of all material contamination. When one is situated on the transcendental stage, one attains the most coveted position--the stage of loving God. Lord Caitanya taught that this is the highest stage of perfection for human beings.

HDGACBSP

Preface

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta

 

Since I beleive that my spiritual masters can speak on these topics with more effective realization and potency I often chose to cut and paste their words, which is cyberspace for repetition. As I understand it any disciple is supposed to repeat what he has heard from the preceptorial link. A keyoard and a computer do not necessarily translate into actual realization,and I try not to say anything that I have not read or heard directly from our acaryas . Sometimes it is a good idea to go to the the source of our information.

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti advises us in his explanation of Srila Rupa Gosvami's 62nd anga of bhakti (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu)to seek out sajatiya and snigdha association in the matter of who to associate with. We can apply that priniciple in real life as well as cyber dialogues, or we can ignore the advice of our preceptors and waste time going tit for tat with anyone's, vaisnava aparadha and fickle mental evaluations.

 

It is one thing to make sincere inquiry and quite another to find fault with acaryas like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami because of our own doubts and misplaced respect for our own intellect.

 

If anyone will express any interest in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's view that:

 

"By studying the history of the world, it is found that the spiritual science reached its peak in Navadwipa."

I can try to either summarize or present some of his observations from his introduction to Sri Krsna Samhita, otherwise not

 

 

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-01-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

"I influenced some of the sage that I has mentioned so that they composed Puranas contaminated by the inferior manners of the nature, where there is confusion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead as being myself. Matsya, Kurma, Linga, Siva, Skanda and Agni Puranas are in the path of the ignorance. Brahmanda, Brahmavaivarta, Markandeya, Bhavisya, Vamana and Brahma are in the path of the passion. A wise man should avoid them."

 

That the 18 Puranas are classified according to the three modes of material nature is a universally accepted fact among all schools of Vedic philosophers. This in no way invalidates the information present within them. They are authored by Sri Vyasa Muni, the incarnation of the Lord, to cater to people influenced by different modes. As such, the spiritual instructions in each will vary based on the intended audience. Though Srimad Bhagavatam is the 'amala purana', or spotless purana, still Vaishnavas, including the Gaudiya Vaishnavas accept all 18 puranas as authoritative and refer to them for much of their scriptural pramana.

 

For example, the pastimes of Srimati Radhika are found primarily in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, a purana which is classified under rajo-guna. Most of bhakti-rasamrita sindhu and hari-bhakti-vilasa are quotes from Puranas categorized under rajo-guna and tamo-guna.

 

The author of these texts is the Lord Himself, so these scriptures are eternally pure. It is the audience which is influenced by the particular mode, and the Purana - though pure - caters to their level of consciousness.

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the sloka Talasigaji, I will keep its deep meaning in my heart with love and affection.

 

Here we are testing these gurus according to Kabir instructions:

 

Bijak/Sakhi 168:

 

hIrA soi srAhiye / sahai ghanan kI choT / kapaT kurangI mAnavA / parakhat nikrA khot

 

"Admire the diamond that can bear the hits of a hammer. Many deceptive preachers, when critically examined, turn out to be false."

 

[Maitreya]

Calling Bhaktiviode a fraud now Satyaraj?You are indeed showing yourself to be a mouse who having eatten too much rotten cheese is now experiencing the relief of passing the resulting gas as a type of orgasm and thinking it samadhi.Unfortunately you are passing said gas in public.

 

Prognosis:very poor.

 

Only known remedy:fasting from said cheese and praying to the one you offended for forgivness.

 

The concept of the individual knowing by their own experience is well known by Bhaktivinode Thakur.

In Jaiva Dharma ch.15 Babaji tells Vrajanatha:

A human being bewildered by matter cannot describe these things. Still, a saintly devotee can attain the spiritual vision to see these spiritual truths directly. My words are inevitably influenced by matter. I will describe these things as far as I am able. My words will inevitably be imperfect. O baba, you will be able to see the pure spiritual truth. However, logic will not help you. Why will logic not help? Because logic is useless in grasping what is beyond the mind's understanding. I know you will not be able to understand this all at once. Still, the more you follow the spiritual path the more you will be able to see the difference between matter and spirit. Your body is material. All the body's actions are material. But the truth is that You yourself are not material. You are a tiny particle of conscious spirit. The more you understand that truth, the more you will be able to perceive your own identity and the truth that you are superior to the material world. You will not understand this merely by hearing me tell you about it. As you follow the path of regularly chanting the holy names of Lord Hari, these spiritual truths will gradually spontaneously appear before you. Then you will understand the spiritual world. As long as the mind and words are influenced by matter, try as one may one will not be able to touch the spiritual truth. The Vedas (Taittiriya Upanisad 2.4.1.) explain:

 

"The descriptive power of speech fails in the realm of the Absolute Truth and the speculative power of the mind cannot achieve Him."*

 

My advice to you is: Don't ask anyone what they think of these conclusions. Experience them yourself. I can only give a hint about them.

Hare Krishna,

YS MC

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 07-01-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Sometimes it is a good idea to go to the source of our information.(Puru)

 

Yes, you may check out the fraud by yourself. Just read some Upanisadas you had quoted as 'proof' on Caitanya avatara such as Chandogya, Svetasvatara, and others and you will see what a ridiculous role you are playing.

 

[Guest guest]

Calling Bhaktiviode a fraud now Satyaraj?(Maitreya)

 

Kwon that the arguments, objections and refutations presented in his books such as Jaiva-dharma, Prema-pradipa, and so on are only concoctions and empirical viewpoint without any basis on sruti. It is very easy

you imagine an objection made by an imaginary mayavadi and make an imaginary refutation defeating his objection. Theses books are the Nobel Premium of literature full of concoctions, imaginary debates, imaginary victories, and biased opinions presented as 'tattvas'.

 

Undoubtedly they are very utile to make a sect, to found a new religion, but they are far way from trai-mata-acaryas' eternal instructions and precepts. They are only the basis of a new and temporary religion of Kali-yuga.

 

[Krishnananda dasa]

I hope Puru Prabhu realizes the irony of his objections to Satyaraja's comments.

 

For months and months, Satyaraja carried on EXACTLY the SAME kind of vitriol against Vaishnavas and bona-fide sampradaya acharyas.

 

Yet his Godbrothers made it clear that they supported him, and that he was right to act as he did. Indeed, it is clear that Satyaraja learned both his ad hominem and his "chopping" techniques from his Gaudiya Matha training.

 

So now, how can they in good conscience complain about his behavior? The ONLY things that have changed are the names of the ones he is slandering.

 

Vaishnava sadacara goes beyond "party spirit." There are standards of behavior that apply even when you are disputing an opponent.

 

But I guess hypocrisy breeds such contradictions. Just as you may notice that the followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja have been strangely silent about ISKCON Mayapur's recent armed attack on the ISKCON Calcutta temple. Could their silence have something to do with Srila Kesava Maharaja's own armed attack on his godbrothers' temple years ago? One wonders...

 

 

[Puru Das Adhikari]

. . ."In the Prti-sandarbha, Sril

a Jiva Gosvämi explains . . . there are three types of discussions-väda, jalpa, and vitandi. In a väda discussion the motive of all concerned is to find out the truth. This is the ideal kind of discussion. It is for persons who are sober and impartial about the outcome; they simply want to know what is the truth of the matter. They are in the mode of goodness. Jalpa is a discussion wherein one is not interested in what is said by others, whether it has some truth or all of the truth, because one simply wants to be heard. Any other view or contribution is of no interest. This is the way for a person in the mode of passion. A vitandi discussion is in the mode of ignorance. In this version the truth is of no value. One simply wants to win at all costs."

Kundali Das

In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall

 

It doesn't seem that anyone will be benefitted from this kind of vitandi discussion where no real dialogue is possible. As I mentioned before Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has directed us:

 

 

"....Spiritual association means to meet together for the purpose of spiritual advancement, to discuss topics of

eternal truth, and to render reciprocal service and welfare which awakens one s devotional sentiments. To avoid

the association of people with whom such types of exchanges are not possible is called upeksa.

 

". . . When an inimical person who has adopted divergent opinions hears glorification of suddha bhakti, or virtuous instructions regarding bhakti, he will immediately retort with some futile argument, beneficial neither for you nor for him. One should avoid such fruitless arguments and interact with such people only so far as routine social

dealings are concerned. If you say it would be best to include inimical people among the ignorant and bestow mercy upon them, then far from helping them, you will only harm yourself. Benevolence should be applied but it should be done with

caution.

 

"Madhyama-adhikari suddha-bhaktas should certainly carry out these four types of behavior. Any negligence on their part in

this regard makes them guilty of improper behavior and failure to do that for which they are qualified. This is considered as a

serious defect."

 

The Gaudiya community has seen this kind of defection before in others throughout history who have "realized" they know more than their gurudeva and all of our predecessor acaryas. It is a manifestation of mayavada to think I have no need for Vaisnava association and throw away the guru. The diksa guru reveals the Lord's form(rupa)and the siksa guru reveals his qualities (svarupa). Any effort to annihilate the need for both is some kind of spiritual suicide we don't need to witness any longer.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-01-2001).]

[Krishnananda dasa]

Puru Prabhu is funny.

 

He thinks we will forget Satyaraja Prabhu's real stated objection to his former guru. He had heard his guru say "Don't slander Vaishnavas." Yet he observed his guru slandering Vaishnavas.

 

When ISKCON gurus do that, Srila Narayana Maharaja urges their disciples to abandon them. So this is no more than a case of "the chickens coming home to roost."

 

Satyaraja Prabhu, whatever his many obvious faults, has not once said that he does not require Vaishnava association, as Puru Prabhup as falsely accused in his typical Gaudiya Matha ad hominem attack. Satayaraja Prabhu has simply accepted other Vaishnava authorities whom he believes are free from the hypocrisy and scriptural dishonesty he believes he has detected in his former sangha.

 

For Puru Prabhu to distort Satyaraja's words as he has done does not serve his gurudeva's cause.

[Puru Das Adhikari]

Krsnananda prabhu,

I haven't seen or read Srila Narayana Maharaj "slander" anyone. Only preach for the benefit of his disciples what topics he feels they should approach. His transcendental role is to offer that kind of particular guidance.

I will search out the particular remark from Srila Narayan Maharaj that satyaraj objected to and anyone can then make up his own mind in the matter.

 

If you beleive his rejection of our guru varga is acceptable behavior then perhaps you should write to your spiritual master and ask his opinion in the matter. When disciples think they can judge the behavior of a bona fide spiritual master from their own conditioned perspective they stop being disciples. If they fail to even approach their gurudeva and submissively inquire to clear their doubts concerning his instruction, but act simply on their own whim and speculation what can anyone do?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has written than no one should follow anything blindly, but inquiries should be made with respect for the speaker. Those remarks are in the Bg. 10.4-5,and SB 1.1.5 and 6 purports. Take them or leave them.

 

Srila Narahari Sakara Thakura gives substantial reasons for rejecting a guru and they don't include simply not agreeing with his instruction because of one's own material conception of what is suitable. Why submit to the advice of a physican if you don't trust his prescription? In Bg. 4.34 Lord Krsna gives the threefold formula for the receipt of transcendental knowledge, approach, inquire submissively and render service.

 

Your "support" of satyaraj's pespective does him no spiritual benefit, but only minmizes the importance of the guru disciple relationship,and the necessity for anugatya in approaching the lila of Radha and Krsna conjugal. If you beleive that he will make progress disobeying the order of his guru because his own estimation has more merit, then I have nothing further to say.

 

 

I don't like the order of my superior so I have to minmize his position and then I can reject him with a clear conscience, but an unclear spirital position.

Here we see clear examples of undue criticism of Srila Bhaktivnoda Thakura by individuals who are unwilling to hear from him, because his realization interferes with their agenda.

Quite a useless mentality for making advancement in developing our bhakti.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-01-2001).]

[Krishnananda dasa]

 

...If you believe the rejection of our guru varga is acceptable behavior

 

Not necessarily acceptable, but perfectly consistent with what he has been taught by his guru and senior godbrothers.

 

... Srila Prabhupada has written than no one should follow anything blindly, but inquiries should be made with respect for the speaker.

 

And whether he is right or wrong in his decision, that is apparently what Satyaraja Prabhu has done.

 

... minimizes the importance of the guru disciple relationship,and the necessity for anugatya in apporaching the lila of Radha and Krsna conjugal.

 

I haven't seen Satyaraja Prabhu minimize the importance of the guru-disciple relationship. He has simply suffered a loss of faith in a guru... just as hundreds of ISKCON devotees have done when confronting their own gurus' inadequacies. If he's automatically wrong to do what he did, then so are the hundreds who have given up their gurus and gone to Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

 

 

[kailasa]

This is confirmed by Madhvacarya: pauëòrake narake caiva çälve kaàse ca rukmiëi äviñöäs tu harer bhaktäs tad-bhaktyä harim äpire

 

Pauëòraka, Narakasura, Salva and Kamsa were all inimical toward the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because all these kings constantly thought of Him, they achieved the same liberation—särüpya-mukti.

 

But when Hiraëyakaçipu came to know of these events, he was very angry at his grandsons. “You have given up my association and have gone to worship Lord Brahmä,” he said, “and therefore I no longer have any affection for you. You have tried to save yourselves from the hands of the demigods, but I curse you in this way: Your father will take birth as Kaàsa and kill all of you because you will take birth as sons of Devaké.” Because of this curse, the grandsons of Hiraëyakaçipu had to take birth from the womb of Devaké and be killed by Kaàsa, although he was previously their father. This description is mentioned in the Hari-vaàça, Viñëu-parva, Second Chapter. According to the comments of the Vaiñëava-toñaëé, the son of Devaké known as Kértimän was the third incarnation. In his first incarnation he was known as Smara and was the son of Maréci, and later he became the son of Kälanemi. This is mentioned in the histories.

An additional verse in this chapter of Çrémad-Bhägavatam is accepted by the Madhväcärya-sampradäya, represented by Vijayadhvaja Tértha. The verse is as follows:

atha kaàsam upägamya

närado brahma-nandanaù

ekäntam upasaìgamya

väkyam etad uväca ha

atha—in this way; kaàsam—unto Kaàsa; upägamya—after going; näradaù—the great sage Närada; brahma-nandanaù—who is the son of Brahmä; ekäntam upasaìgamya—after going to a very solitary place; väkyam—the following instruction; etat—this; uväca—said; ha—in the past.

Translation: “Thereafter, Närada, the mental son of Lord Brahmä, approached Kamsa and, in a very solitary place, informed him of the following news.”

The great saint Närada descended from the heavenly planets to the forest of Mathura and sent his messenger to Kamsa. When the messenger approached Kaàsa and informed him of Närada’s arrival, Kaàsa, the leader of the asuras, was very happy and immediately came out of his palace to receive Närada, who was as bright as the sun, as powerful as fire, and free from all tinges of sinful activities. Kaàsa accepted Närada as his guest, offered him respectful obeisances and gave him a golden seat, brilliant like the sun. Närada was a friend of the King of heaven, and thus he told Kaàsa, the son of Ugrasena, “My dear hero, you have satisfied me with a proper reception, and therefore I shall tell you something secret and confidential. While I was coming here from Nandakänana through the Caitraratha forest, I saw a great meeting of the demigods, who followed me to Sumeru Parvata. We traveled through many holy places, and finally we saw the holy Ganges. While Lord Brahmä was consulting the other demigods at the top of Sumeru Hill, I was also present with my stringed instrument, the véëä. I shall tell you confidentially that the meeting was held just to plan to kill the asuras, headed by you. You have a younger sister named Devaké, and it is a fact that her eighth son will kill you.” (reference: Hari-vaàça, Viñëu-parva 1.2–16)

 

The great Madhväcärya quotes the following relevant passages from the Skanda Puräëa:

krisna-kämäs tadä gopyas

tyaktvä dehaà divaà gatäù

samyak kåñëaà para-brahma

jïätvä kälät paraà yayuù

“At that time the gopés, who desired Krisna, gave up their bodies and went to the spiritual world. Because they properly understood Kåñëa to be the Supreme Absolute Truth, they transcended the influence of time.”

pürvaà ca jïäna-saàyuktäs

taträpi präyaças tathä

atas täsäà paraà brahma

gatir äsén na kämataù

“In their previous lives most of the gopés were already fully endowed with transcendental knowledge. It is because of this knowledge, not their lust, that they were able to attain the Supreme Brahman.”

na tu jïänam åte mokño

nänyaù pantheti hi çrutiù

käma-yuktä tadä bhaktir

jïänaà cäto vimukti-gäù

“The Vedas declare that without spiritual knowledge there is no valid path to liberation. Because these apparently lusty gopés possessed devotion and knowledge, they achieved liberation.”

ato mokñe ’pi täsäà ca

kämo bhaktyänuvartate

mukti-çabdodito caidya-

prabhåtau dveña-bhäginaù

“Thus even in their attainment of liberation, ‘lust’ followed as a manifestation of their pure devotion. After all, what we call liberation was experienced even by envious persons like Çiçupäla.”

 

As it seems, while there will be attempts of direct penetration in race, especially mathurya, tatvavadi will prosper. It corresponds(meets) to a verse

 

“In their previous lives most of the gopés were already fully endowed with transcendental knowledge. It is because of this knowledge, not their lust, that they were able to attain the Supreme Brahman.”

na tu jïänam åte mokño

nänyaù pantheti hi çrutiù

käma-yuktä tadä bhaktir

jïänaà cäto vimukti-gäù

 

All who will tell on this verse, what in the past they already have reached(achieved) Supreme Brahman, it is possible to ask, and why you were not born gopi in games Krisna?

 

On the one hand Goloka guard... I do not remember, but with another - caturviuha

 

kailasa.

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Thank you for the sloka Talasigaji, I will keep its deep meaning in my heart with love and affection.

 

Here we are testing these gurus according to Kabir instructions:

Bijak/Sakhi 168:

"Admire the diamond that can bear the hits of a hammer. Many deceptive preachers, when critically examined, turn out to be false."

Talasiga says:

No matter how much

One hammers the beads and baubles

The poor cannot afford diamonds

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 07-01-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Some people have put forward theview that Sri Chaitanya's divinity must be established in the shruti texts of the Vedas and Upanishads.

 

The fact is the subject of the shruti is not history, and one will generally not find such statements within it. One will not find a prediction of the Buddha avatara in the shruti, nor kalki, nor even a mention of most of the incarnations of the Lord. That is not the subject matter of the shruti. The shruti deals with principles and injunctions of religion. The history is dealt with in the Puranas, Itihasas and Kavyas - the smriti texts. It is there that one will find descriptions and predictions of the Lord's incarnations.

 

[Guest guest]

Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda was the Gaudiya theologian from last century...

 

 

>>> This message has been deleted as it was already posted four times to these forums. Messages are not allowed to be reposted from time to time. Initially I will delte the messages. If it continues I will ban people who do this. - Jndas

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-01-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Some people have put forward the view that Sri Chaitanya's divinity must be established in the shruti texts of the Vedas and Upanishads.

 

Yes, we agree with Jndas in that point. Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda for certain was an ardent defender of the viewpoint that Sri Caitanya's divinity must to be established by sruti texts of Vedas and Upanisadas. Therefore he has invented an Upanisad named Caitanya Upanisad to support his point of view.

 

We also fully agree that Sri Caitanya avatara's story may be fond in a rajasic Purana such as Bhavisya Purana. A religion's god like that, whose rein will be in this Earth during the next 10,000 years and then he will vanish for a kalpa, should be mentioned in tamasic and rajasic sastras such as black Puranas, Tantras, Agamas and Pañcaratras, that also deals with ghosts and spirits.

 

Bhagavan Siva is very clear in his statement; "A wise man should avoid these texts." (Siva-gita; Padma Purana)

 

A dual and temporary Tantric god like that is not Hari, the non-dual and eternal Ultimate Reality: na iti. Therefore one should continue his research for Hari. The alternative of this religion's god should be discarded by the wise.

 

[Guest guest]

>>> Message about castrating God and transplanting sexual organs deleted. - Jndas

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-02-2001).]

 

That is your forum and you are the ruler. You can do as you like. But you simply cannot hide the truth! These facts are all public!

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 07-02-2001).]

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Puru Das Adhikari:

4. 1

mahan-prabhur vai purusam sattvasyesu pravarttakam

surnimalam imam santisano jyotiravyam

The Personality of Godhead [sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu] is brilliantly effulgence [like molten gold], and he is imperishable. He is

the Supreme Controller. He controls the mode of goodness and [through the performance of sankirtana] he bestows upon theliving beings [the] spiritual intelligence [by which they can understand devotional service]. [in his acarya-lila, as a sannyasi] Heis the source of spiritual purity and of liberation. He is therefore known as "Mahaprabhu." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 2.12)

 

The Sruti establishes that The Supreme Lord

will appear in a golden form as Sri Gauranga

 

 

Come again!

Svetasvatara Upanishad 2.12 reference to Mahaprabhu Gauranga?

Are you fair dinkum?

Please check it out.

And let us know your results.

Ta.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Gramatically one may interpret the verse to refer to Guaranga, but it isn't the direct meaning of the verse. Certainly it isn't a proof.

 

 

[shvu]

 

We also fully agree that Sri Caitanya avatara's story may be fond in a rajasic Purana such as Bhavisya Purana.

I don't.

 

If Vyasa wrote the Bhavisya purana and devoted chapters to chaitanya by providing his name explicitly, then what makes chaitanya a hidden avatar? Why try to twist verses in the Bhagavatam to falsely show him as a "hidden" avatar?

 

This purana would have been available to the numerous acharyas who came before chaitanya. Yet no one noticed this avatar before his arrival.

 

The ultimate point is the list in gosai.com which was also posted here a few months back by jndas. At the end of it, it says these references were hidden until his passing and then they magically appeared everywhere.

 

Anyone can see that these claims are bogus. It is only emotion and sentiment that prevents people from seeing so. Having invested too much time and effort into all this, they simply cannot bear to accept this simple truth.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Puru Prabhu is funny.

He thinks we will forget Satyaraja Prabhu's real stated objection to his former guru. He had heard his guru say "Don't slander Vaishnavas." Yet he observed his guru slandering Vaishnavas.( Krishnananda dasa)

 

"Srila Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja is also a sahajiya. One who is not taking guidance form Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's line can have only many bad qualities. But those who are reading his books should be very careful. In our Gaudiya Line, one can be confident." (by Narayana Mahajara. Letter to all of his disciples and followers in a Q&A mail list)

 

Most have read purports of Narayan Maharaja on Vilap Kusumanjali, where he is widely quoting Ananda Gopal Gosvami, a 'caste' Gosvami, and Ananta das Babaji, a 'sahajiya'. Then he is himself also a sahajiya and a Caste Gosvami?

 

We had translated and published all of SNM's books in our country and also had studied some of Srila Ananta

Das Bbj's books. It is unbelievable! Not only Vilap Kusumanjali was plagiarized , but many other books. Some quotes are placed in his books without even a change of the translator's mood, that seems that they

could not find any new translator and put them as they were in the original! What a shame!