Debate series

[Maitreya]

Haribol Jndas prabhu,

 

With a new article appearing every few days on Chakra about Narayana Maharaja and then a week later a response coming from VNN I thought maybe sponsoring a series of debates here at Audarya Fellowship might be a good idea.

 

At both the above mentioned venues there is really no way for the audience to ask questions.And the bias is so strong at each site.

 

And between them there is no question that some mature dialogue needs to take place.

 

I was thinking something like having both camps submit position papers of a length determined by you to make their basic points.They would each have one spokes-person only.But it should be from those who are top level from each respective group.

 

Then they would question each other as well as make new points.Maybe a time limit of two days or even one for responses to keep it flowing nicely.

 

Also a few questions would be chosen by you from submissions that we could post on a separate thread.A response to these questions from the audience would be mandatory. We could also have a running discussion on the debate on this thread.

 

I feel that Audarya Fellowship would be the perfect place for some top level debates like this.The topics are endless.The possibities vast. The partipants could be invited by you or even challenges could entertained.

 

It would be run as a closed thread to others apart from those designated.This would preserve concisely the best arguements from both sides on any controversial issue in one place and on one thread for future reference.

 

A structured top level civilized debate forum.What do you and others think?Feasible or not worth the effort?

 

[And just after I chided Jagat for trying to make more work for you. ]

 

Hare Krishna,

YS MC

 

[dasanudas]

Personally I think it is a good idea prabhu but I have my doubts whether it will fly. Mainly because I think both camps feel more at home in their own freedom-comfort zones They seem to both regularly feel victorious and vindicated in their conclusions. I think if they come head to head it could get a little nasty, any impartial objective volunteers to referee? I think it will just stalemate like the ole ritvic rag and other distasteful skirmishes, put two raging bulls in the ring and it could end up one messy blood bath, but you never know honor may prevail and a sweeter synthesis develop for the benfit of all. Blessed be the peacemakers.

[Maitreya]

dasanudas prabhu,

 

It is nasty and messy already though.The referee idea is the whole point.It's like little boys when caught fighting are taking in the gym given gloves and headgear and then allowed to work it out.

 

I have nominated Jndas as referee.I'm not sure what he thinks about it all though.

 

If not there is always Micheal Buffer:

 

"let's get ready to rummmmmmble..."

 

Mcpromoter

[Jagat]

The last thing I want to see here is a Narayan Maharaj anti Narayan Maharaj debate.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Jagat:

The last thing I want to see here is a Narayan Maharaj anti Narayan Maharaj debate.

Well there are a lot of other topics Jagat.I think bring some dialouge MIGHT be helpful on that issue also.I am interested in each groups views but not in the ranchor that is currently going on.

You yourself started a thread on 6-28 entitled 'LA ISKCON policy on Narayana Maharaja' in the world review section, but minds can change.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Jagat:

The last thing I want to see here is a Narayan Maharaj anti Narayan Maharaj debate.

Uh-oh. This is the second time in as many days as I am in complete agreement with Jagat.

 

Gotta check the moon tonight and see if its blue.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Uh-oh. This is the second time in as many days as I am in complete agreement with Jagat.

 

Gotta check the moon tonight and see if its blue.

randOM, watch for deliveries.I'm sending brahmi oil special delivery to you in Idaho.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

randOM, watch for deliveries.I'm sending brahmi oil special delivery to you in Idaho.

 

Do I need to scan the package in the Xray machine?

 

[Gauracandra]

How about this? In my college days I remember my professor once asked our philosophy class our opinions on various controversial issues (drug legalization, abortion etc...). We didn't know what he was going to do. Once we gave our opinion, he then had us debate taking the other side.

 

So we could have reps from Iskcon debating why Narayan Maharaj should be invited to speak at Iskcon temples, and disciples of Narayan Maharaj explaining why not.

 

That would be soooooooo cool. Never would happen, but would be interesting reading

 

Gauracandra

[Maitreya]

randOM,

 

You are safe with me.Who else can I go after JJ with?

 

Gaurachandra that would be wild.But each side would probaly try to lose on purpose.

[Guest guest]

DOVERYAY NO PROVERYAY

 

(russki for "trust but verify"), and thats why all packages to my household get screened. Xrays won't hurt brahmi oil, right? Is brahmi oil related to honey oil (afghan kind)?

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

DOVERYAY NO PROVERYAY

 

(russki for "trust but verify"), and thats why all packages to my household get screened. Xrays won't hurt brahmi oil, right? Is brahmi oil related to honey oil (afghan kind)?

NOT that kind of oil.You rub it on your forehead to cure diturbances of life air.You are agreeing far to often with Jagat.

 

X-rays may harm it.Hire a liberal to open all your packages.Then its no loss either way.

 

 

[dubeyrakesh]

 

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Haribol Jndas prabhu,

 

With a new article appearing every few days on Chakra about Narayana Maharaja and then a week later a response coming from VNN I thought maybe sponsoring a series of debates here at Audarya Fellowship might be a good idea.

 

What is Chakra and VNN? Who is Narayan Maharaja?

Just curious, whats your connection with Jagat/random Axix 0 etc?

Do you guys stay together but dont talk to each other, so that you can discuss stuff here

More seriously, I would like to know if you guys lead a religious life with minimum connections (like internet) to the material world Please let me know to what degree am I right/wrong.

 

I do sometimes feel like living a life worshipping God aka Krsna which would be altogether different from the one I am living now. I would like to have your guidance in case tommmorw I decide to do that.

 

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

 

Thanks all,

Rakesh

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

NOT that kind of oil.

 

Bummer.

 

Originally posted by Maitreya:

You rub it on your forehead to cure diturbances of life air.You are agreeing far to often with Jagat.

 

 

He is my GodBuddy.

 

Originally posted by Maitreya:

X-rays may harm it.Hire a liberal to open all your packages.Then its no loss either way.

 

Ha-ha-ha. I'd rather act as always, according to my eternal dharma.

 

Satyam eva jayate.

 

BB

[Janus]

"But it should be from those who are top level from each respective group."

 

Not only "top level" persons are being impacted by the issues and that is only one reason that I consider that limiting such a debate to "top level" persons may be a mistake. What does "top level" refer to anyway? I know that it seems apparent, but is it? Are the "top level" members of ISKCON, the Rtviks (who cannot be excluded in any invitation to devate), or Srila Narayana Maharajas disciples necessarily the most qualified to debate the claims made of SNM for or against him? If they are not, and supposing one side looses the debate simply because the topmost person that they offer is not capable of succesfully challenging the opposition, might that not only serve to further increase confusion, or worse? How bout opening the debate up to anyone who has a stake in this, to the lowliest person to SNM himself?

 

 

[Janus]

>>>>How about this? In my college days I remember my professor once asked our philosophy class our opinions on various controversial issues (drug legalization, abortion etc...). We didn't know what he was going to do. Once we gave our opinion, he then had us debate taking the other side.

So we could have reps from Iskcon debating why Narayan Maharaj should be invited to speak at Iskcon temples, and disciples of Narayan Maharaj explaining why not.

 

That would be soooooooo cool. Never would happen, but would be interesting reading

 

Gauracandra

 

It would not only be "soooooooo cool" Gaurachandra prabhu, but it also would be more in keeping with the methodology which Sri Jiva Goswami established for attaining to the understanding of the Absolute Truth.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja has commented that there may be a few middle class, or madhyama devotees about, but no uttamas. The inference is that every else one of us is a kanistha, and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has commented in his Sri Krsna Samhita that the kanistha class devotee is entirely controlled by his prejudices. Your professors trick neutralized (or minimized rather that prejudice, forcing peoples minds to observe that which otherwise they would have been unable to see. Heresy is simply not tuned in when one has certainty.

 

Anyway, Sri Jivas methodology for establising the Absolute Truth included arguely strongly (purvapaksa) against his own postulates (visaya). This is (as Sri Jiva recognized) necessary simply because doubts (samsaya) arise automatically towards the validity of any postulate and are recognized by the objective observer (I consider Sri Jiva to be objective). Supporters of SNM and his detractors will not even recognize that doubts arise as in most of all cases they are proceding from an emotional need, rather than from a philosophical justification. I too would find it "sooooo cool" and also very useful for SNM's defenders and detractors to argue each others positions but I also agree with you on the lack of likelyhood of that happening.

Hari bol

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Janus:

"But it should be from those who are top level from each respective group."

 

Not only "top level" persons are being impacted by the issues and that is only one reason that I consider that limiting such a debate to "top level" persons may be a mistake. What does "top level" refer to anyway? I know that it seems apparent, but is it? Are the "top level" members of ISKCON, the Rtviks (who cannot be excluded in any invitation to devate), or Srila Narayana Maharajas disciples necessarily the most qualified to debate the claims made of SNM for or against him? If they are not, and supposing one side looses the debate simply because the topmost person that they offer is not capable of succesfully challenging the opposition, might that not only serve to further increase confusion, or worse? How bout opening the debate up to anyone who has a stake in this, to the lowliest person to SNM himself?

 

 

Haribol Janus,

 

Its seems there is little interest in the idea anyway.By top level I meant those chosen by their group to represent them.You would get the ones with the best scriptural knowledge and debate ability to present their case.I understand that really the top devotee may be illiterate and scrubbing the temple latrine everyday.

The idea of limiting the formal debate to one or two presenters is that it keeps a certain consistancy in the exchange.I also suggested a paralle thread for the rest of us to discuss it.With questions from us going through Jndas to the guests.

As it is now it is like an open sore that has the prospect of festering on for decades.

But this was also only an example idea.I was picturing many subjects being discussed by many different people from different fields.

 

And the format wouldn't have to be adversarial always.I was picturing say a Catholic theologian discussing Catholcism with a knowledgeable Chaitanya Bhakta.Now if we were all firing in on him at once it would be very confusing for him.But structured well it may serve as a bridge for common understanding.

 

Some debates, some dialogues.I probably should have avoided using the SNM controvesry as a first example.

 

Now I want to see you next post.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 07-06-2001).]

[Maitreya]

The idea to argue against one's own position as being raised by Gauracandra and discussed by Janus must be very powerfull.

 

I noticed a certain unease as I began to imagine myself doing it, which must be pointing to an area of weak faith within myself.A true kanistha.Hmmm...revealing already.

[Janus]

Its seems there is little interest in the idea anyway.By top level I meant those chosen by their group to represent them.You would get the ones with the best scriptural knowledge and debate ability to present their case.I understand that really the top devotee may be illiterate and scrubbing the temple latrine everyday.

The idea of limiting the formal debate to one or two presenters is that it keeps a certain consistancy in the exchange.I also suggested a paralle thread for the rest of us to discuss it.With questions from us going through Jndas to the guests.

As it is now it is like an open sore that has the prospect of festering on for decades.

But this was also only an example idea.I was picturing many subjects being discussed by many different people from different fields.

And the format wouldn't have to be adversarial always.I was picturing say a Catholic theologian discussing Catholcism with a knowledgeable Chaitanya Bhakta.Now if we were all firing in on him at once it would be very confusing for him.But structured well it may serve as a bridge for common understanding.

Some debates, some dialogues.I probably should have avoided using the SNM controvesry as a first example.

Now I want to see you next post.

 

Maitreya rishi

People will fight for their beliefs, they will die for them, and they will kill for them, and so you create in them belief, and they will fight for you, die for you and kill for you. No, you probably should have avoided the SNM controversy. As any example, for you such debates as you suggest challenge the beliefs of the people who account him to be a pure devotee.

 

I do not mean that SNM would ever issue a command for the destruction of anyone challenging his position. He is not like some of the ISKCON guru’s that I have heard and read about. But the “dust of his lotus feet might be offended, and even one particle of that is enough to put paid to your accout, or to mine, or to anyones who challenges what they believe of their Guru in debate.

 

And what happens if ISKCON or the Rtviks win? Are we talking about another Guyana, another Waco? We could be, so we must be clear.

 

Whose purpose would it serve to insist upon such a debate? You’ll notice that I said “insist” rather than invite. What leader ,seeing his objective in sight would walk across a mine field to get to it when he can simply go around the field. Or if even existential pressure compels such a short cut, why go himself when he can send in other peoples kids, his devotees. So what if they die in battle, they are fighting for religious principles and are thus assured by Lord Krsna in Bhagavad Gita that the least that they will achieve will be the sun planet. So why, oh why prabhu would you expect for a moment that the “topmost” members of this argument would be willing to enter into such debate, whaat have they to win, and what have they to loose? It is gambling, and it is not a sure bet. Those who are most eager, the Rtviks, are the least powerful, and those who are the most powerful SNM, is the least eager, and in the middle you have ISKCON, poor, poor ISKCON.

There is an old saying that the friend of my enemy is my friend and Srila Narayana Maharaja has in the past favored ISKCON and ISKCON gurus with many high recommendations.

Sure, right now that is a thing of the past but if ISKCON swings over to supporting SNM, well, who might not again be in good favor? Not Kirtananada, oh no, but what about some of the others, what about any of the others. From such as this you expect great resolve?

 

[Maitreya]

Janus prabhu,

 

There is a lot of reality in what you said.Imagine our present factions ever conceding that another might by right and they wrong.Just longing for days of yore I guess.When it was honorable to accept defeat and grow by the experience and the victor sought not the defeat of an opponent as the goal, but rather the resulting unity.

 

I must have been dreaming.

 

Look next for my idea on how to implement world peace in our lifetime.

 

Jaya Prabhupada,

YS MC

 

 

[dasanudas]

"Blessed be the cheesemakers"

 

I was just wondering if all those martyres that die fighting for their cause all around the world, take their attitude to paradise with them,or if they kind of get a wash down on their journey thru the Brahmajhoti.

 

Oh for a gentle stream and a banyan tree to sing the glories of the vaisnavas with some like souls. Gaura Hari

 

The Nature Of Affection

Devotee: We have heard the guru can only be defeated by his son or disciple. Can you explain this?

Srila Sridhara Maharaj: One sloka has told It is desirable that one will attain victory at every place, but only defeat from his own son or disciple. That is, the disciple will be of greater merit and prospect because that will enhance his guru’s position. It is also said that a person’s merit of his past lives is judged by what type of son he has got. That will show the merit of his previous birth. So the guru sincerely wills that his disciple may surpass him even in his own service to the Lord. He will expect more from his disciple than himself, that he may have a greater position in the circle of the eternal servitors. Such affection the guru has towards his disciple, he is such a well-wisher of his disciple.

Mahaprabhu gave everything that He knew to Rupa Goswsami and when in Puri, He stated, “He is a proper person to propagate devotion, so I have given My everything to him. And I request that you also give whatever you have got to him.” So guru loves his disciple, making himself empty and feels pleasure by giving everything to the disciple. Such is the nature of the affection that a true guru reveals to his real disciple. This is the principle. And how will the disciple respond in turn? He should give more respect to his guru than to Lord Krishna. He is abiding by the order of guru, so radha-dasyam comes from there. He will be servant to his immediate master. He does not know what the absolute purpose of the Lord is, but he will be more faithful to his master, one’s great well-wisher. Whatever he requires him to do, that is his life.

What is the symptom of pure devotion? Where the highest authority is submissive to the servant - there is devotion. The highest has been forcibly taken down to serve the devotee, His servant. That is the peculiar power of devotion. The last acquisition of devotion is this, that it can control the Supreme Lord and forcibly take Him to the devotee as a friendly servant. The master submits, surrenders to the servant, a most peculiar thing. That is there, so what more could we expect. The infinite at the disposal of the finite. Can you conceive of this? And it is done very stealthily in various diplomatic ways. So the finite has got its supreme most glorious unthinkable position, and that can be obtained only through love. So how precious is that all-powerful love.To get a drop of that divine love, no sacrifice is sufficient. SSM

 

'Big head or big heart' that is the question to open the debate!

 

[amanpeter]

The Nature Of Affection

Devotee: We have heard the guru can only be defeated by his son or disciple. Can you explain

this?

Srila Sridhara Maharaj: One sloka has told It is desirable that one will attain victory at every

place, but only defeat from his own son or disciple. That is, the disciple will be of greater

merit and prospect because that will enhance his guru’s position. It is also said that a

person’s merit of his past lives is judged by what type of son he has got. That will show the

merit of his previous birth. So the guru sincerely wills that his disciple may surpass him even

in his own service to the Lord. He will expect more from his disciple than himself, that he

may have a greater position in the circle of the eternal servitors. Such affection the guru has

towards his disciple, he is such a well-wisher of his disciple.

Mahaprabhu gave everything that He knew to Rupa Goswsami and when in Puri, He stated,

“He is a proper person to propagate devotion, so I have given My everything to him. And I

request that you also give whatever you have got to him.” So guru loves his disciple, making

himself empty and feels pleasure by giving everything to the disciple. Such is the nature of

the affection that a true guru reveals to his real disciple. This is the principle. And how will

the disciple respond in turn? He should give more respect to his guru than to Lord Krishna.

He is abiding by the order of guru, so radha-dasyam comes from there. He will be servant to

his immediate master. He does not know what the absolute purpose of the Lord is, but he

will be more faithful to his master, one’s great well-wisher. Whatever he requires him to do,

that is his life.

What is the symptom of pure devotion? Where the highest authority is submissive to the

servant - there is devotion. The highest has been forcibly taken down to serve the devotee,

His servant. That is the peculiar power of devotion. The last acquisition of devotion is this,

that it can control the Supreme Lord and forcibly take Him to the devotee as a friendly

servant. The master submits, surrenders to the servant, a most peculiar thing. That is there, so

what more could we expect. The infinite at the disposal of the finite. Can you conceive of

this? And it is done very stealthily in various diplomatic ways. So the finite has got its

supreme most glorious unthinkable position, and that can be obtained only through love. So

how precious is that all-powerful love.To get a drop of that divine love, no sacrifice is

sufficient. SSM

What supreme munificence has been invested in each of us, we can hardly begin to imagine. All blessed hearts pregnant with unlimited expressions of Divinity never before revealed. What precious untold gifts we must carry, prabhus...

[dubeyrakesh]

Hey guys,

 

Your sense of humour is great but PLEASE reply to my post.

 

Thanks

Rakesh

 

[Audarya lila]

 

 

What is Chakra and VNN? Who is Narayan Maharaja?

 

Answer:

Find out for yourself what VNN and Chakra are by visiting the web sites - Chara.org and VNN.org repectively. These are sites dedicated to vaishnavism with slightly different affilitations. Narayana Maharaja is a well known Gaudiya teacher with many disciples around the world. He is a spiritual cousin to the disciples of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as his guru is Prabhupada's god brother.

 

Just curious, whats your connection with Jagat/random Axix 0 etc?

 

Answer:

Jagat is up in Canada and Random is in Idaho with the potatoes - the connection is Krsna.

 

 

Do you guys stay together but dont talk to each other, so that you can discuss stuff here

More seriously, I would like to know if you guys lead a religious life with minimum connections (like internet) to the material world Please let me know to what degree am I right/wrong.

 

Answer:

Each person who posts here has a different story and living situation. Some are physically closely associated with other devotees regularly, others are not.

 

I do sometimes feel like living a life worshipping God aka Krsna which would be altogether different from the one I am living now. I would like to have your guidance in case tommmorw I decide to do that.

 

Answer:

Don't wait. Start right away. Krsna says that there is no loss on your part and even a little advancement on the path of devotion can protect you from the most dangerous fear. You should start by simply sitting in a quiet place where you will not be disturbed and try chanting the Maha mantra: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare,

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Focus your mind on the mantra and chant peacefully with full concentration as long as you can. Do this each day and pray to Krsna for guidance. Your sincerity is what is required and will not go unnoticed or unrewarded.

 

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

 

Thanks all,

Rakesh

[dasanudas]

 

 

Patience is a virtue Rakesh, especially on the internet.I thought someone else would have answered your question, but seeing as no one is, I'll try to.we would'nt want to see you going away frustrated.

To start with Chakra and VNN are two Vaisnava websites broadcasting the message of Krsna Consciousness as given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Due to different spiritual pursuasions they tend to clash on various points of philosophy. VNN I could safely say are followers of Narayan Maharaj who is one branch of the tree of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Cakra on the other hand only accept Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad as their spiritual preceptor. Of course neither concede the others validity which is the cause of much contention.

Some on this forum have various affiliations an sympathies to these lines. I can't speak for everyone here but I think you'll find most posting here have much background in common, as many of us came to KC thru the Grace Of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami but in coming into contact with other acharayas conceptions of Divinity in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu we are giving a variety of perspectives, which altho at times appears to be a little disturbing should be seen as healthy, considering the endless streams of nectarean conclusions emanating from Swayam Bhagavan. Some have difficulty for various reasons accomodating others point of view, while others endeavour to.

Most of us here if you follow regularly are stationed all around the world, Like Maitreya is in California, Peter (Valaya) and Jagat in different parts of Canada, I am in Australia etc. Altho most of us have some devotional association in their respective environments, I have never met most on the forums personally and live a life divorced from spiritual institutions as you will find most others do. This is the mainstay of our devotional Sanga. As grihastas we no doubt have various sadhanas according to our devotional conections- Initiations etc. as regarding our daily practice within our own homes. Some of us have families children etc. while others don't.

It's no doubt a wonderful step for you in the right direction to practise spiritual life as this will lead eventually to a life of inner fullfillment and lasting satisfaction. And it gives us all great joy to see anyone take to the path of Krsna Consciousness. If you can find encouraging Vaisnava association on this path it will surely be an inestimatable great fortune to your eternal and present wellfare. I wish you all the very best. I haven't the time at present to elaborate further but hope this may have answered some of your question.

Affectionately

Ys

dasanudas

 

Originally posted by dubeyrakesh:

What is Chakra and VNN? Who is Narayan Maharaja?

Just curious, whats your connection with Jagat/random Axix 0 etc?

Do you guys stay together but dont talk to each other, so that you can discuss stuff here

More seriously, I would like to know if you guys lead a religious life with minimum connections (like internet) to the material world Please let me know to what degree am I right/wrong.

 

I do sometimes feel like living a life worshipping God aka Krsna which would be altogether different from the one I am living now. I would like to have your guidance in case tommmorw I decide to do that.

 

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

Please let me know.

 

Thanks all,

Rakesh