Why Differences among the Gods ?

[dubeyrakesh]

That was an excellent post Mr Jijaji.

 

Actually I feel that the 36Cr Gods represent the different desires/dilemmas/thoughts that a human mind experiences at all times. And just like we desire something more than something else at one point of time but desire the opposite at some other point of time, we have one God seeming superior to other at times.

 

But for someone like me (and most of Indian-Hindu youths) who hasnt been taught to worship one particular God, its difficult to determine which deity is "mine".

 

Tell me this: Which of the 36Cr Gods, "deserves" a Purana? Who decided? Who worte them and when?

 

You may be knowing this but Jijaji is kind of weird to address someone who is not your Jijaji; It means Sister's husband.

 

Thanks,

Rakesh

 

[dubeyrakesh]

What is the basis of classifying our literature into Vedas, Shastras, Puranas, Smritis, Upanishads and others that I missed?

When were all of these composed and by whom?

Thanks,

Rakesh

 

[jijaji]

I am fully knowing the meaning of jijaji...it was a nickname jokingly given to me by some Indians I used to work with years ago.

I have assumed it as my cyber-name if you don't mind good sir!

 

 

namaskar

 

jijaji

 

------------------

PEACE NOW

[karo]

Brahman is Absolute and unconditioned in His

true state.When we try to comprehend Brahman

we condition Him through our finite minds.Not

that Brahman is then conditioned and made to

be something that one can put in a box,it is

merely a perception of Brahman.My given name

is one thing,my nick-name is another,and yet

I will answer to my last name as well.So it

is with the Supreme Reality,we may call Him

by different names,yet,this does not change

the nature of that Reality.

[Ananga]

You should get a trademark on your name, jijaji, then nobody can challenge your right to use it. Of, coures, you'll have to do a patent search first and then fill out all of the paperwork and pay the exorbitant fees. Heck, you may as well register it as a pen name with the Library of Congress, while you're at it.

[Maitreya]

Here are three verses from Krishna that relate.

 

 

Bg 9.23 - Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way.

 

Bg 9.24 - I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down.

 

Bg 9.25 - Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

 

Hare Krishna

[jijaji]

Why Differences among the Gods ?

(HinduDharma: Puranas)

 

Each Purana is in the main devoted to a particular devata. In the Siva Purana it is stated: "Siva is the Supreme Being. He is the highest authority for creation, sustenance and dissolution. It is at his behest, and under him, that Visnu funtions as protector. Visnu is a mere bhogin, trapped in Maya. Siva is a yogin and jnana incarnate. Visnu is subject to Siva and worships him. Once when he opposed Siva he suffered humiliation at his hands". Stories are told to illustrate such assertions.

 

In the Vaisnava Puranas you see the reverse. They contain stories to support the view that Visnu is superior to Siva. "Is Siva a god, he who dwells in the burning grounds with spirits and goblins for company? " these Puranas ask.

 

In each Purana thus a particular deity is exalted over others. It may be Subrahmanya, Ganapati or Surya. Each such deity is declared to be the Supreme God and all others are said to worship him. When, out of pride, they refuse to worship him they are humbled.

 

Doubts arise in our minds about such contradictory accounts. "Which of these stories is true? " we are inclined to ask. "And which is false? They cannot all of them be true. If Siva worships Visnu, how does it stand to reason that Visnu should adore Siva? If Amba is superior to the Trimurti (Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara), how is it right to say that she remains submissive to Parameswara as his devoted consort? Are all the Puranas true? Or are they all lies? "

 

Logical thinking seems to point to the conclusion that all Puranic stories cannot be true. But, as a matter of fact, they are. A deity that suffers defeat at one time at the hands of another emerges triumphant on another occasion. And a god who worships another deity is himself the object of worship at other times. How is this so and why?

 

The Paramatman is one and only one. He it is that creates, sustains and destroys. And it is he who exfoliates as the the many different deities. Why does he do so? He has not cast people in the same mould. He has created them all differently, with different attitudes, the purpose being to make the affairs of the world interesting by imparting variety to them. The Paramatman himself assumes different forms to suit the temperament of different people so that each worship him in the form he likes and obtain happiness. This is the reason why the one and only Paramatman manifests himself as so many different deities.

 

Everybody must have firm faith in, and devotion for, his chosen deity. He must learn to believe that this deity of his is the Paramatman, that there is no power higher. That is the reason why each manifestation or form of the Supreme Godhead reveals itself to be higher than other forms or manifestations. It is thus that these other forms are shown to have worshipped it or suffered defeat at its hands. Altogether it means that each deity worships other deities and is in turn worshipped by others. Also each god suffers defeat at the hands of other gods and, at the same time, inflicts defeat on them.

 

In the Saiva Puranas all those aspects that proclaim the glory of Siva are brought together. Similarly, in the case of the Vaisnava Puranas that deal with Visnu. Amba, Subrahmanya and other deities are each of them dealt with in such a way as to show him or her to be the highest among the devatas.

 

The purpose of exalting a particular deity over the another is not to depreciate the latter. The underlying idea is that a person who worships his chosen god has unflinching faith in him and becomes totally devoted to him. Such exclusive devotion is called "ananyabhakti". The idea here, however, is not to regard other devatas as inferior to one's own chosen deity- an example of "nahi ninda nyaya".

 

Those who are capable of looking upon all deities as the manifestations of the one and only Paramatman have no cause for exclusive devotion to any one of them. It is only when we think that one deity is separate from- or alien to- another that the question arises of giving up one for another. If we realise that all are the different disguises of the One Reality, the various gods and goddesses potrayed in the Puranas, with all the differences among them, will be understood to be nothing but the lila or sport of Supreme Being. It is the One alone that seems divided into manifold entities. This is to help men of various attitudes and temperaments. If this truth is recognised we shall be able to see the stories in the Puranas- stories that seem contradictory- in the true light.

 

In the story of Banasura we see that Siva is vanquished by Krsna. But in the story of Tiruvannamalai, Visnu meets with failure in finding the feet of Siva. Both stories must be treated as truthful. The first is to make devotees of Krsna worship him as the Paramatman and the second to make devotees of Siva adore him similarly. Although we think that one is winner and the other the loser or that the one is superior to the other or inferior to him, the two know themselves to be one. Does one triumph over oneself- or does one inflict defeat upon oneself? So all this is play. The Parmatman indulges in sport assuming multifarious forms.

 

The purpose of the Puranas is to show people the right path. Pativratya is a virtue that is of the utmost importance. Amba herself exemplifies it. The Parasakti, the Supreme Power that she is, remains subject to her husband. Faith and devotion must grow in the world and for it the Lord himself must show the way. This is why in some temples Visnu is represented as a worshipper of Siva and in some other shrines Siva is seen as a devotee of Visnu. The same with other deities. I have spoken more about Siva and Visnu since Saivism and Vaisnavism are the two major divisions.

 

To sum up, if a deity is glorified in the Puranas, and stories told in support of it, it is to create exclusive devotion to him as the Paramatman. And, if any god is potrayed as inferior to another, the true purpose of it is not to denigrate him but to develop unflinching faith in the latter.

 

(HinduDharma: Puranas)

 

Each Purana is in the main devoted to a particular devata. In the Siva Purana it is stated: "Siva is the Supreme Being. He is the highest authority for creation, sustenance and dissolution. It is at his behest, and under him, that Visnu funtions as protector. Visnu is a mere bhogin, trapped in Maya. Siva is a yogin and jnana incarnate. Visnu is subject to Siva and worships him. Once when he opposed Siva he suffered humiliation at his hands". Stories are told to illustrate such assertions.

 

In the Vaisnava Puranas you see the reverse. They contain stories to support the view that Visnu is superior to Siva. "Is Siva a god, he who dwells in the burning grounds with spirits and goblins for company? " these Puranas ask.

 

In each Purana thus a particular deity is exalted over others. It may be Subrahmanya, Ganapati or Surya. Each such deity is declared to be the Supreme God and all others are said to worship him. When, out of pride, they refuse to worship him they are humbled.

 

Doubts arise in our minds about such contradictory accounts. "Which of these stories is true? " we are inclined to ask. "And which is false? They cannot all of them be true. If Siva worships Visnu, how does it stand to reason that Visnu should adore Siva? If Amba is superior to the Trimurti (Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara), how is it right to say that she remains submissive to Parameswara as his devoted consort? The Puranas cannot all of them be true. Or are they all lies? "

 

Logical thinking seems to point to the conclusion that all Puranic stories cannot be true. But, as a matter of fact, they are. A deity that suffers defeat at one time at the hands of another emerges triumphant on another occasion. And a god who worships another deity is himself the object of worship at other times. How is this so and why?

 

The Paramatman is one and only one. He it is that creates, sustains and destroys. And it is he who exfoliates as the the many different deities. Why does he do so? He has not cast people in the same mould. He has created them all differently, with different attitudes, the purpose being to make the affairs of the world interesting by imparting variety to them. The Paramatman himself assumes different forms to suit the temperament of different people so that each worship him in the form he likes and obtain happiness. This is the reason why the one and only Paramatman manifests himself as so many different deities.

 

Everybody must have firm faith in, and devotion for, his chosen deity. He must learn to believe that this deity of his is the Paramatman, that there is no power higher. That is the reason why each manifestation or form of the Supreme Godhead reveals itself to be higher than other forms or manifestations. It is thus that these other forms are shown to have worshipped it or suffered defeat at its hands. Altogether it means that each deity worships other deities and is in turn worshipped by others. Also each god suffers defeat at the hands of other gods and, at the same time, inflicts defeat on them.

 

In the Saiva Puranas all those aspects that proclaim the glory of Siva are brought together. Similarly, in the case of the Vaisnava Puranas that deal with Visnu. Amba, Subrahmanya and other deities are each of them dealt with in such a way as to show him or her to be the highest among the devatas.

 

The purpose of exalting a particular deity over the another is not to depreciate the latter. The underlying idea is that a person who worships his chosen god has unflinching faith in him and becomes totally devoted to him. Such exclusive devotion is called "ananyabhakti". The idea here, however, is not to regard other devatas as inferior to one's own chosen deity- an example of "nahi ninda nyaya".

 

Those who are capable of looking upon all deities as the manifestations of the one and only Paramatman have no cause for exclusive devotion to any one of them. It is only when we think that one deity is separate from- or alien to- another that the question arises of giving up one for another. If we realise that all are the different disguises of the One Reality, the various gods and goddesses potrayed in the Puranas, with all the differences among them, will be understood to be nothing but the lila or sport of Supreme Being. It is the One alone that seems divided into manifold entities. This is to help men of various attitudes and temperaments. If this truth is recognised we shall be able to see the stories in the Puranas- stories that seem contradictory- in the true light.

 

In the story of Banasura we see that Siva is vanquished by Krsna. But in the story of Tiruvannamalai, Visnu meets with failure in finding the feet of Siva. Both stories must be treated as truthful. The first is to make devotees of Krsna worship him as the Paramatman and the second to make devotees of Siva adore him similarly. Although we think that one is winner and the other the loser or that the one is superior to the other or inferior to him, the two know themselves to be one. Does one triumph over oneself- or does one inflict defeat upon oneself? So all this is play. The Parmatman indulges in sport assuming multifarious forms.

 

The purpose of the Puranas is to show people the right path. Pativratya is a virtue that is of the utmost importance. Amba herself exemplifies it. The Parasakti, the Supreme Power that she is, remains subject to her husband. Faith and devotion must grow in the world and for it the Lord himself must show the way. This is why in some temples Visnu is represented as a worshipper of Siva and in some other shrines Siva is seen as a devotee of Visnu. The same with other deities. I have spoken more about Siva and Visnu since Saivism and Vaisnavism are the two major divisions.

 

To sum up, if a deity is glorified in the Puranas, and stories told in support of it, it is to create exclusive devotion to him as the Paramatman. And, if any god is potrayed as inferior to another, the true purpose of it is not to denigrate him but to develop unflinching faith in the latter.

 

 

from kamakoti.org

 

 

------------------

PEACE NOW

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 07-17-2001).]

[jijaji]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Here are three verses from Krishna that relate.

 

 

Bg 9.23 - Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way.

 

Bg 9.24 - I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down.

 

Bg 9.25 - Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

 

Hare Krishna

 

Very significant verses Maitreyaji I agree...

 

The Vedanta schools base their doctrines on the Upanishads. The Upanishads, the Vedanta Sutras and the Bhagavad Gita are regarded as the authoritative scriptures. They are called Prasthana-Traya Granthas.

My question is how does the Vedantic schools deal with these quotes from Sri Krishna? And if the Bhagavad Gita is considered Prasthana what about the rest of the Mahabharata?

Anyone?

 

namaskar

 

 

 

 

 

------------------

PEACE NOW

[shvu]

 

 

ye yathA mAM prapadyante tAnstathaiva bhajAmyaham |

mama vartmAnuvartante manushyAha pArtha sarvashaha ||

 

By whatsoever ways men worship me, even so do I accept them;

for in all ways , O pArtha, men walk in my path. - BG 4.11

 

yo yo yAn yAn tanum bhaktaha shraddhayArchitumichchhati |

tasya tasyAchalAn shraddhAn tAmeva vidadhAmyaham ||

 

Whatever form a particular devotee wishes to worship with faith;

concerning that alone, I make his faith unflinching. - BG 7.21

 

Jijaji,

 

Smriti including the BG is valid for vedAntins only when it does not contradict Sruti. That also includes the mahabhAratha. The BG just happened to become more popular. After the war, Arjuna asks Krishna to repeat the BG to him. But Krishna says he cannot do that and proceeds to instruct him in the Anu Gita instead. Although the Anu Gita is held important, it is not as popular as the BG.

 

Cheers

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

Demigods means halfgods.

Where does Bhagavad Gita 9.25 mention half gods?

 

"Yaanti devrataa devaan

pitreen yaanti pitrivrataaha

bhootaani yaanti bhootejyaa

yaanti madyaajino 'pi maam"

 

devaan means gods.

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by shvu:

Smriti including the BG is valid for vedAntins only when it does not contradict Sruti. That also includes the mahabhAratha.

 

Bhagavad Geeta itself is the song of God

directly from Lord Krishna

It is shrooti

That is why its colophonic name: bhagavadgeeta upanishad

 

 

[shvu]

 

Talasiga,

 

we have gone thru this earlier. By tradition, Sruti is what is part of the 4 vedAs [revealed and eternal]. Everything else is composed by man and is Smriti. The prasthana-trayi is Sruti, BS and BG. Notice that the latter 2 are not Sruti.

 

If there is only one God, then Allah = God and the Kuran is also Sruti, so is the NT, Buddhism and so on. Satya Sai Baba's devotees believe that he is an avatar, so his words are Sruti too. But all this is not accepted by vedAntins as Sruti as they are all teachings of humans.

 

About upanishads, there are hordes of upanishads including an allah upanishad. Not all of them are authoritative and only the 10 main Upanishads are common authority for all schools of vedAnta. In addition a few other upanishads like shvetAshvatara, mahA-nArAyana, kaivalya, jAbala are also important, but not to all schools.

 

Where is the BG referred to as an upanishad and by whom? upanishads are veda-anta which form the concluding part of one of the four vedas. Which veda is this part of?

 

Cheers

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Where is the BG referred to as an upanishad and by whom? upanishads are veda-anta which form the concluding part of one of the four vedas. Which veda is this part of?

Gita is refered to as Gitaopanishad by countless vedantists. It doesn't mean that it is one of the 108 upanishads, but that subject wise, it is an upanishad. Even Shankara's Gita Mahatmya describes the Gita as the milk coming from the cow of the Upanishads. The Gita is the essence of the Upanishads, and therefore it is respected on the same level as the Upanishads.

 

As far as Veda-anta, it has no connection with a physical end or section of the vedas. The Upanishads are the end of the Vedas because they give the ultimate conclusion of the Vedas. Thus your question as to which Veda does Bhagavad Gita belong to is pointless, as that is not the meaning of Veda-anta.

 

Krishna does say, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah. He is the object of knowledge of the Vedas. Thus the Gita is on an equal level, giving complete knowledge of Himself.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

For these reason only supreme power has created powers like Vishnu and Shiva. And these powers are called Gods and they are proficient in their defined work.

Do you really believe this has anything to do with what Vallabha taught. This is pukka Hinduism mixed with a little general Vaishnavism; nothing to do with Vallabha.

 

Anyway, Jai Sri Krishna. Pass the Srikhand.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by talasiga:

Demigods means halfgods. Where does Bhagavad Gita 9.25 mention half gods?

I think if we look at the literal meaning of demi-god, it refers to a personality possessing some degree of power. From what I have read, God is derived from an old german word meaning one who possesses power. If this is true, then demi-god is one who possesses partial power. That is pretty much what a deva or vibhuti is.

 

devaan means gods.

Well, if you want to get particular, it actually doesn't mean gods either. That is just an interpretive translation of the word, as much as demigods is as well.

 

Regardless, we can just as well say "one who worships the devatas goes to the devatas." The meaning remains the same.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-18-2001).]

[talasiga]

Originally posted by shvu:

Talasiga,

 

we have gone thru this earlier. By tradition, Sruti is what is part of the 4 vedAs [revealed and eternal]. Everything else is composed by man and is Smriti. The prasthana-trayi is Sruti, BS and BG. Notice that the latter 2 are not Sruti.

 

1. We have NOT gone "THRU" it at all. Your response is still pending to my my post of 26 June 12:38AM on the thread "Bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti".

 

2.The vedaanta prasthaana-trayi do not include shrooti per se (this would mean all the Vedas) but the vedaanta shrootis of the Upanishads, the Geetopanishad (Bhagavad Geeta) and the smirti of Brahma Sootra-s.

 

3. The prasthaans are literally the foundational pillars for vedaanta exegesis and therefore are equal primacy regardless of whether one is shrooti or smirti.

(Jijaji Peacenow has done a wonderful posting on the shrooti-smirti relationship on a recent thread and the equality between them is particularly the case with the scriptural cluster of the Prasthaana-traya).

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by shvu:

 

Where is the BG referred to as an upanishad and by whom? upanishads are veda-anta which form the concluding part of one of the four vedas. Which veda is this part of?

 

 

JN Das has already just responded quite well to these humble questions of Shvu.

 

Talasiga also refers Shvu to the final line of Bhagavad Geeta.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Gods and Sri Vallabha's BALBODH

The salvation of soul favored by others (Gods) Brahmaji is already worshipped as Brahmanas by doing

study of Vedas. Moreover, Brahmaji is generator of life, so he will not give exaltation to soul because it is

reverse process of generation.

 

Brahmaaji never gives exaltation. He has created Shastra named Vaikhanasa related to exaltation. Therefore, for exaltation, Shiva and Vishnu are capable. Vishnu's job is to operate and protect the world. Whereas, Shiva's job is to destroy the world. Both are prominent and proficient in their work.

 

For these reason only supreme power has created powers like Vishnu and Shiva. And these powers are

called Gods and they are proficient in their defined work.

 

Shiva's innocence and versatility for universe is described in "Pashupatshashtra" and for Vishnu it is described in "Naradpanchratra." Shiva and Vishnu both are capable to give worldly physical comforts and

also exaltation of soul. But as a matter of fact, Shiva always gives worldly physical emetics and Vishnu always gives exaltation of soul. But there are some exceptions. If we think deeply, as in real world owners

who are enjoying physical comforts will not allow their servants to enjoy same physical comforts. So applying this simple logic, Shiva always wants exaltation for himself so he will not give exaltation to his

devotees, but he will give physical comfort for sure. It is reverse for Vishnu, that he likes physical comforts, so he will give exaltation of soul to his devotees.

 

As we understood ahead that every god is capable of giving exaltation and physical comforts but they will normally give what they do not want; but for very favorite devotees, they will give what they want. In other words Shiva will give exaltation of soul to his very favorite devotee and Vishnu will give physical comforts. But to do so Shiva and Vishnu has to go very great exertion.

 

Shri Vallabh draws our attention that human mind is faulty and immersed in worldly affairs by nature. To get freedom from all worldly affairs and achieve true happiness, one should perform nine fold devotion.

 

Nine fold devotions are:

 

1. To hear about Shri Krshna

2. To Praise the Shri Krshna

3. To remember Shri Krshna every second

4. To offer service in the lotus feet of Shri Krshna

5. Worship, devotion

6. A respectful bowing

7. Servitude

8. Friendship

9. Self dedication with love

 

By doing nine fold devotion, one can easily achieve happiness from Shiva and exaltation from Vishnu.

 

Those who dedicate self, wealth, family including wife and children etc. to Shri Krshna, always achieve best love and devotion from God. But those who have not achieved that devotion through self dedication and always surrender themselves to Shri Krshna also gets sublimation of soul towards God head.

 

In conclusion, to understand His divineness, we should accept total surrenderness towards Supreme Being, the Krshna. And we should perform our duties toward Him (nine fold devotion) and also we should perform worldly duties too. Failure to perform both duties we are doing double sin, and Krshna has to do extra to exalt those souls. and it takes longer for those souls to be exalted.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

(Jijaji Peacenow has done a wonderful posting on the shrooti-smirti relationship on a recent thread and the equality between them is particularly the case with the scriptural cluster of the Prasthaana-traya).

It should be noted that that article was by people belonging to the smarta sect, who are advaitis; thus it is not just a Vaishnava view (which is the usual claim).

 

In regards to the Gita being and Upanishad, this is stated in the colophone of the Bhagavad Gita, wherein it states Bhagavad Gita is an Upanishad, yoga-shastra, and brahma-vidya. This is chanted along with any recitation of the Gita.

 

As a note, the colophone is not found in Prabhupada's edition of the Gita.

 

It isn't clear who has composed the colophone (whether Vyasa or a later saint), but it has been accepted in principle by all the Acharyas including Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva.

 

In recent times, Sri Prabhupada has also propagated this concept. One can notice the devanagari title of his Bhagavad Gita is "Gitopanishad" even though in english it says "Bhagavad Gita As It Is".

[Guest guest]

Jnadas: Do you really believe this has anything to do with what Vallabha taught. This is pukka Hinduism mixed with a little general Vaishnavism; nothing to do with Vallabha.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, you are somewhat right in your appreciation. This work by Sri Vallabha is called BALBODH. Here Shri Mahaprabhuji (Shri Vallabh) addresses all the juniors devotees in the pathway of spiritual life. He addresses all the principles in short and sweet type of form. He also describes the form of God with all happiness and capability of God to take away all the worries of a person. As most of the juniors devotees at his time were Hindus with some notion on Vaisnavism, Sri Vallabha is giving instructions to this kind of people.

 

The original verse in Baldobha is:

 

te sarvartha na chadyen, shastran kim chidudeeritam,

ataha shivasch vishnusch, jagato hita karankou,

vastunaha sthiti samhaarau, karyan shastra pravartakau.

 

"Brahmaaji never gives exaltation. He has created Shastra named Vaikhanasa related to exaltation. Therefore, for exaltation, Shiva and Vishnu are capable. Vishnu's job is to operate and protect the world. Whereas, Shiva's job is to destroy the world. Both are prominent and proficient in their work."

 

[animesh]

If we think deeply, as in real world owners who are enjoying physical comforts will not allow their servants to enjoy same physical comforts. So applying this simple logic, Shiva always wants exaltation for himself so he will not give exaltation to his

devotees, but he will give physical comfort for sure. It is reverse for Vishnu, that he likes physical comforts, so he will give exaltation of soul to his devotees.

 

I liked this one. Does it mean that Shiva and Vishnu are selfish like "real world owners"?

 

[shvu]

 

1. We have NOT gone "THRU" it at all. Your response is still pending to my my post of 26 June 12:38AM on the thread "Bhakti is the ultimate goal beyond mukti".

I had nothing more to say and so I kept silent rather than repeating the same thing all over again.

 

2.The vedaanta prasthaana-trayi do not include shrooti per se (this would mean all the Vedas) but the vedaanta shrootis of the Upanishads, the Geetopanishad (Bhagavad Geeta) and the smirti of Brahma Sootra-s.

To you, the BG and Shikshashtaka are Sruti. It is a freew world and you can call anything as Sruti. By this logic, one can say Buddhism is Sruti, Kapila's sAnkya is Sruti, etc.

 

I am saying that traditionally Sruti is the 4 Vedas, period and nothing else.

 

3. The prasthaans are literally the foundational pillars for vedaanta exegesis and therefore are equal primacy regardless of whether one is shrooti or smirti.

Of course, for none of the Smriti in the Trayi contradict Sruti anywhere. That is the idea.

 

Cheers

 

[talasiga]

shvu said

I had nothing more to say and so I kept silent rather than repeating the same thing all over again.

 

talasiga says

the indigestible is repeated

the truth is not repetitive

at every round it is ever new

________________

 

shvu said

I am saying that traditionally Sruti is the 4 Vedas, period and nothing else.

 

talasiga says

The Vedas do not say what shvu said.

________________

 

shvu said

Of course, for none of the Smriti in the Trayi contradict Sruti anywhere. That is the idea.

 

talasiga says

1. Yes, this is an idea that shvu believes.

It is a reality known by the realized.

2. As only the Upanishad portion of the Vedas is included in the prasthaan-traya, shvu's position is open to the inference that

(i)the shrooti in the balance of the Veda would raise contradictions and that is why they are not included in the traya. This is corollary to the inference that those smirti not included in the traya would be contradictory to the shrooti; or

(ii)just as the prasthaan-traya does not include amy smirti that would contradict the shrooti included in it, so it does not include any shrooti (Vedas minus Upanishads) that would contradict any smirti included in it.

3. For the Enlightened there is no contradiction in what they remember (smirti) of what they hear(shruti).

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 07-19-2001).]

[shvu]

 

Free world, Talasiga. Everything that any 'realized' man said is Sruti. Doesn't matter if they are all different.

 

In fact, if I can manage to collect a set of gullible people as my followers and convince them that I am enlightened [a very easy task because I know most of the tricks in the bag], then according to your logic, my teaching will be Sruti too.

 

Yeah baby !

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by shvu:

In fact, if I can manage to collect a set of gullible people as my followers and convince them that I am enlightened [a very easy task because I know most of the tricks in the bag], then according to your logic, my teaching will be Sruti too.

 

you cannot bag me

you know not my logic

your beliefs have no magic