Genetics and the three modes

[Gauracandra]

As I understand it, based on one’s consciousness at the time of death on receives a particular body in one’s next life. So this question is a bit like “What came first the chicken or the egg” - once we get a body, is it our pre-existent consciousness that controls us or is it our genetics which our pre-existent consciousness selected for us? I have noticed that people whom I would consider to be in the mode of goodness (very calm, mellow, level headed) tend to have children who are also in the mode of goodness. While people whom I would consider passionate, tend to produce children who are easily agitated, aggressive etc…. So what is the relationship between the three modes and the body we receive? and to what degree does each influence our temperament in life?

 

Gauracandra

 

[animesh]

Interesting topic :-) Let me think on this. Hmmm

Hmmm

 

[animesh]

Lots of experiments over the years have shown that genetics is responsible. So, we can not just rule that out. Now the question is regarding "soul". One very easy answer will be

"soul has nothing to do with all these".

 

Now the question is

"Is it possible that both soul and genetics are involved in this?"

 

Well, it is quite possible. I do not find why these should be mutually exclusive.

[Guest guest]

 

"What came first the chicken or the egg?"

 

According to some smrti first it comes karma-vasana, the desire to perform activities. This desire is the cause of ahamkara, or the self-identification of jiva as something different than Hari. Ahamkara causes the feeling of mamata, 'this is mine,' this is not Hari's.

 

Ahamkara and mamata are the cause of the subtle body formed by senses, mind and intelligence. This subtle body is the cause of different gross bodies according to guna and karma. That's to say, prakrti manifests the gunas that are influencing the jiva and karma-vasana is always there developing new karmas.

 

If we are only considering the gross body, genetics is the expression of one's former guna and karma. Present guna and karma will give the genetic expression of the next body.

 

Notice that this is only a theology, a theoretic explanation on jiva's fall down. There are countless other theories like that in smrti texts following different point of views of different sages.

 

But sruti states that Hari's 'modus operandi' is beyond any reasoning. All sort of theories that try to explain jiva's affairs in this material world are to be rejected according to Badarayana Muni's opinion. Only Hari's absolute and free will is always prevalent over jiva's fate at any time. That's to say, Hari is both the chicken and the egg.

 

 

[shvu]

 

I'll state that the chicken came first. I will not offer proof and no one can prove me wrong either. Likewise if I had stated that the egg came first, no one could have disproved me either.

 

The point is, anything that one says about such things is speculation and hence has no value. Anything goes.

 

Cheers

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

But sruti states that Hari's 'modus operandi' is beyond any reasoning.

Hari's 'modus operandi' is explained by Sri Hari Himself in scriptures such as Bhagavad Gita. What the shruti states is that Hari is not fully knowable, but it is possible to know about Hari and His method of acting and relating with us. Of course perhaps I am not understanding what it is you mean by 'modus operandi'. Please tell me which word from the shruti properly translates as 'modus operandi', then I can get a clearer understanding of what you are conveying.

 

As far as Krishna's own words, he states:

 

jnatva mam, shantim ricchati

 

"Knowing me, one attains peace."

 

Thus it is clear that Brahman is knowable, and every shruti statement that says otherwise should be understood in connection with Sri Krishna's own direct statement. The shruti does not speak about some 'modus operandi' of Hari, they simply state that Brahman cannot be known. At the same time, there are twice as many shruti statements that say Brahman can be known and must be known - for that is the goal of life.

 

Regarding the conception that everything is just Hari:

 

One who thinks we are also Hari engaged in His lila of material creation has no destination to attain, for we are already engaged within His lila causing ananda to Him through creation. We should ask ourselves why this Jiva Hari is taking part in the creation lila and not the Vaikuntha lila, and why has Hari put us in the suffering lila and not the ananda lila? There is a cause that we are not seeing - a cause that is not Hari. Though Hari is the cause of all causes as the facilitator of action and generation, still the jivas have their free will by which they may choose their fate. Hari is the cause of the power to choose, as well as the cause of the fulfiment of their choice, but the choice is the product of the jiva. Hari is supremely nuetral and not involved in choosing which jivas suffer and which enjoy.

 

karya-karana-kartritve

hetuh prakritir ucyate

purushah sukha-duhkhanam

bhoktritve hetur ucyate

 

"Nature is said to be the cause of all material activities and effects, whereas the living entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world."

 

It is the jiva who is the cause of his own suffering, not Sri Hari.

 

Those who mistake the jiva to also be Hari are influenced by illusion. Though, as His energy they are one with Him, still the jiva is always vibhinna. This is stated by Krishna in the Gita

 

mamaivamsho jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah

 

"The living entities are eternally my fragmental parts."

 

Madhva cites the following verses from Padma Purana which stresses the importance of the difference between Hari and jiva:

 

upapadayet paratmanam

jivebhyo yah pade pade

bhedenaiva na caitasmat

priyo vishnos tu kashcana

 

"One who sees the living entity and the Supreme Lord as always distinct is very dear to the Lord."

 

yo hares caiva jivanam

bheda-vakta hareh priyah

 

"One who preaches that the living entities are separate from the Supreme Lord is very dear to Lord Visnu."

 

The Hari Vamsha gives us the proper conclusion on this matter as follows:

 

The Hari Vamsa confirms this as follows:

 

sarvam harer vashatvena

shariram tasya bhanyate

ananyadhipatitvac ca

tad ananyam udiryate

na capy abhedo jagatam

vishnoh purna-gunasya tu

 

“Because everything is under the control of the Supreme Lord, Hari, everything is considered to be His body. He is the original source and master of everything, and therefore nothing should be seen as different from Him. Nonetheless, one should not foolishly conclude that there is absolutely no difference between the material universe and Lord Vishnu, who is full of His own unique spiritual qualities.”

 

If we are only considering the gross body, genetics is the expression of one's former guna and karma.

Though generally one's guna and karma develop one's next body, it is actually the state of the mind at death that determines this. This is clear from the countless sinful souls who attained good birth by various activities of sukriti at the time of death. Despite having lived sinful lives, and despite being influenced heavily by the lower modes of nature, by chance they were able to absorb their minds in some higher thought when their body died.

 

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam

tyajaty ante kalevaram

tam tam evaiti kaunteya

sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

 

"Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail."

 

That's to say, Hari is both the chicken and the egg.

Could it be that you are hinting at brahma-parinama-vada, the conception that Brahman transforms to become the material universe? That is clearly rejected by Vyasa in his Vedanta-sutras.

 

[shvu]

 

At the same time, there are twice as many shruti statements that say Brahman can be known and must be known - for that is the goal of life.

Haah !!!

 

Nectar to my ears, I must say. So can I presume that you do not discard Mukti as something inferior basedo nsome west bengal literature? So it appears you do give credence to the Gita when it says param gatim, etc.

 

udArAha sarva evaite gyAnI tvAtmaiva me matam |

Asthitaha sa hi yuktAtmA mAmevAnuttamAn gatim || 7.18 ||

 

Concerning 'everything is Hari', I can produce a number of verses to with Shankara's justification, just like someone else can produce several of Madhva's commentaries to show otherwise. So it really means little.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Jndas: Could it be that you are hinting at brahma-parinama-vada, the conception that Brahman transforms to become the material universe? That is clearly rejected by Vyasa in his Vedanta-sutras.

 

Satyaraj: No, this is another smrti. I am not defending brahma-parinama-vada, but the concept that Hari Himself is the material universe, as states the Bhagavata Purana while describing the Mahapurusa (12 Th Canto). This is Vyasa's conclusion.

 

Jndas: There is a cause that we are not seeing - a cause that is not Hari.

 

Satyaraj: So, now you are plagiarizing Sankara. Sakara'a another cause different then Hari is called maya, what is the name of yours?

 

Jndas: We should ask ourselves why this Jiva Hari is taking part in the creation lila and not the Vaikuntha lila, and why has Hari put us in the suffering lila and not the ananda lila?

 

Satyaraj: "The motive of the Lord in creating the world is a mere sport only, as we see in ordinary life' (Vedanta 2.1.33)

 

Therefore Badarayana Rsi refutes all sort of theories and theologies that try to explain Hari's 'modus operandi' are not sanctioned by sruti. Sankhya, vaisesika, pasupata, jaina, sunyam, yoga, and sakta, etc. are all strongly refuted by Vedanta-sutras (2.2.1-45).

 

'Modus operandi' = the way that Hari plays His lilas.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Haah !!! Nectar to my ears, I must say.

nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam

shuka-mukhad amrita-drava-samyutam

 

"The Srimad Bhagavatam is the ripened fruit of the Vedas. Coming from the lips of Sri Shuka Muni, it is the sweetest nectar."

 

So can I presume that you do not discard Mukti as something inferior basedo nsome west bengal literature? So it appears you do give credence to the Gita when it says param gatim, etc.

 

I didn't follow the rest of you post. I couldn't make the connection between A and B. But the nectar part was clear that you were aluding to the effulgent light of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Concerning 'everything is Hari'...

Hari is everything (vasudevah sarvam iti), but everything is not Hari. When one only sees the first part, his understanding is incomplete.

 

I can produce a number of verses to with Shankara's justification, just like someone else can produce several of Madhva's commentaries to show otherwise.

Please do. I enjoy reading the writings of acharya's such as Shankara. It will certainly benefit all of us and help us to understand the illusory nature of the material world.

 

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Jndas: We should ask ourselves why this Jiva Hari is taking part in the creation lila and not the Vaikuntha lila, and why has Hari put us in the suffering lila and not the ananda lila?

 

Satyaraj: "The motive of the Lord in creating the world is a mere sport only, as we see in ordinary life' (Vedanta 2.1.33)

 

Therefore Badarayana Rsi refutes all sort of theories and theologies that try to explain Hari's 'modus operandi' are not sanctioned by sruti. Sankhya, vaisesika, pasupata, jaina, sunyam, yoga, and sakta, etc. are all strongly refuted by Vedanta-sutras (2.2.1-45).

 

'Modus operandi' = the way that Hari plays His lilas.

Satyaraja,

 

Last Friday night while trying to pop a blister on my big toe I managad to start a case of cellulitis.This resulted in my spending yesterday at the emergency unit of the hospital receiving blood checks and iv antibiotics.I go back today.

 

My question is. is that Hari's lila or a result of my own foolishness?I think the latter.

 

Why would Hari place me by force in the world of suffering instead of Vaikuntha?What kind of sport is this?

 

Surely not for His pleasure in my suffering.That would be sadistic.To teach a lesson?All we can learn from our material sojourn's seems to be that Vaikuntha is the place to be as this is just a land of suffering.

 

When I read some of your posts you seem to be negating the jiva souls participation in it's own fate.

 

Am I misunderstanding you?

[shvu]

Last Friday night while trying to pop a blister on my big toe I managad to start a case of cellulitis.This resulted in my spending yesterday at the emergency unit of the hospital receiving blood checks and iv antibiotics.I go back today.

 

My question is. is that Hari's lila or a result of my own foolishness?I think the latter.

Maitreya,

 

How do you explain Gita 18.61 in relation to the above incident? What if it had happened accidentally without you doing a thing?

 

Thanx

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 07-23-2001).]

[Maitreya]

 

Originally posted by shvu:

Maitreya,

 

How do you explain Gita 18.61 in relation to the above incident? What if it had happened accidentally without you doing a thing?

 

Thanx

 

Hare Krishna Shvu,

 

I agree that Supersoul is directing the wandering of all conditioned souls.But based on what criteria are we placed in diverse situations?Others at the hospital were in worse shape?

 

In the section of BG that you refered to Krishna is trying to persuade Arjuna to act according to His direction.He taught the Gita and then told Arjuna to do as he wished.So free will was there.It's minute and hard to perceive apart from our conditioning I admit.

 

I don't believe in accidents or chance Shvu.From our perspective we talk like that in common discussions perhaps, but ultimately I accept the Supreme Controller.

 

MC

 

 

 

[shvu]

 

I guess my question is, how do you view an accident? Do you accept it as a causeless random occurence or do you view it as an unavoidable effect of previous Karma? If it is the latter, you cannot blame yourself for what happened.

 

There is a verse from the Bhagavatam in which Krishna says "whomsoever my grace falls upon, him I shall rob of everything." So by that verse, suffering and pain can be viewed as part of Hari's Lilas, where he is guiding the devotee by making his faith stronger.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Satyaraj: I hope you are better now. Please take your medicine!

 

Vedanta also states that jiva is an active agent. He is not the only kartta (agent) as there are 4 others that do nor depend on his will. But jiva is a small kartta, no doubt. He also has free will in an atomic size. He is part and parcel of Hari.

 

Now the question of jiva's suffering is relative. According to Vedanta Hari is not biased towards any jiva, He is impartial towards everyone and partial towards His devotees. Most of jivas are not aware of their suffering in this world. Just ask your neighbor if he is suffering, he will probably say; 'No I'm very happy!" Only a very few jivas are aware of mundane suffering and are desiring mukti. This kind of desire is the first condition to seek after Hari.

 

Only in such condition a jiva will seek after jñana and may attain bhakti. In a position like that he will surely be freed from bondage.

 

Now, concerning the cause of bondage, sastras state that Hari's free will is the cause of it. There is a theology that state that jiva has became bahir-mukha, he has turned his face towards Hari and has fallen down to this material world as a kind of punishment.

 

There is another theology that states that jivas are placed here to help Hari to perform His material lilas. They are devotees, and Hari creates the conditions to them to be always satisfied here and hereafter. According to that theology the material world is not a prison house for embryos.

 

I personally prefer the second theology, as it shows Hari's compassionate heart and sportive nature. Not a malevolent and vindictive God.

 

[kailasa]

At first there are maximum forms(shapes) of life and from them all remaining. All forms(shapes) of life Form in some stages(phases) also exist simultaneously showing themselves in miscellaneous places pursuant to conditions. The changes of aircraft attitude from a germ to the man were not. Just as from combination of a man's and female beginning there is a child, is exact as there are no Obstacles for similar occurrence(appearance) of the forms(shapes) of life in permanently varying conditions of a material world.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

As I see it, genetics may play some role in temperament as well as one's consciousness. The example of Ajamila comes to mind. He was born in a very pious family and led a pious life. But eventually he chose a certain path and degraded his mentality. So there is free will there. Still perhaps one's physical characteristics (genetics) may influence one's temperament. One could still counteract it, though for someone who is naturally agitated easily, it would be harder to perform in the mode of goodness compared to a person who is naturally in that mode.

 

It is sort of a question of nature vs. nurture. Both play a role. Nature may create certain possibilities that are more likely, but the environment one grows up in and the choices one makes put a person on a certain path.

 

There has been a lot of talk lately of E.Q. or emotional intelligence (as opposed to just IQ). It tries to measure how one approaches life, people, problems in an other than logical fashion. They'll put some candy before a child and say "We'll give you double the candy in five minutes if you don't eat this candy". Some kids naturally are able to remain detached and self-controlled, others need the instant gratification of the candy. Still, through practice ("sadhana") I'm sure you could get those kids to hold out longer, and remain calm and detached as well. Just a few things I thought I'd bring up.

 

Gauracandra

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

All we can learn from our material sojourn's seems to be that Vaikuntha is the place to be as this is just a land of suffering.

That is what the Bhagavatam states:

 

sthitir vaikuntha vijayah

 

"The actually realm of the living entitiy is the victorious abode of Vaikuntha."

 

And the Gita also states:

 

dukhalayam ashashvatam

 

"The material world is a temporal place full of suffering."

 

Put two and two together and you have your statement above.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

There is another theology that states that jivas are placed here to help Hari to perform His material lilas. They are devotees, and Hari creates the conditions to them to be always satisfied here and hereafter. According to that theology the material world is not a prison house for embryos.

I think Hari may have missed a few people with that "always satisfying stuff".

 

The creation is certainly a lila of the Lord for reclaiming the fallen conditioned souls from avidya. But why one living entity is put into the suffering samsara lila and another is put into the full of bliss vaikuntha lila? It is because of their own choice and free will.

 

I personally prefer the second theology, as it shows Hari's compassionate heart and sportive nature. Not a malevolent and vindictive God.

To me it shows that God is partial to some living entities, which is not true.

 

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by shvu:

I'll state that the chicken came first. I will not offer proof and no one can prove me wrong either. Likewise if I had stated that the egg came first, no one could have disproved me either.

 

The point is, anything that one says about such things is speculation and hence has no value. Anything goes.

 

Cheers

 

I am the eggman Goo Goo Ga Joob

 

 

[Maitreya]

Yeah Jndas, you can put in with those souls that Hari missed when passing out the satisfaction.I don't blame Him though, my mistake.

 

The glorious thing is His kindly expanding Himself as Supersoul for us that we may someday be reclaimed.

 

Doc Satyaraja, thanks for the well wishes. I am taking my medicine as prescribed.I am fast approaching 50 and am trying to take everything as a wake up call.

 

It is fascinating in a ghastly sort of way, to see one's body just start to rot right off oneself.

 

LOL and chant!

 

YS MC

[Guest guest]

Jndas: To me it shows that God is partial to some living entities, which is not true.

 

Satyaraj: "And because it is proved that all attributes are present in Brahman, however conflicting they may be with each other, therefore He is just to all and 'partial' to His devotees." (Vedanta 2.1.37)

 

Read Baladeva's commentary on that sutra.

 

So, I'm personally leaned to chose the theology that shows Hari's compassionate heart and sportive nature, and some jivas are really relishing this material world.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I said:

 

Jndas: To me it shows that God is partial to some living entities, which is not true.

And you replied:

 

Satyaraj: "And because it is proved that all attributes are present in Brahman, however conflicting they may be with each other, therefore He is just to all and 'partial' to His devotees." (Vedanta 2.1.37)

You seem to be slipping off the topic. No one is arguing that the Lord does not favour his devotees. You have already stated that everyone was a devotee of the Lord, including those that the Lord put into the suffering of samsara. Thus your quote is completely non-relevant.

 

A reminder of what you said:

 

There is another theology that states that jivas are placed here to help Hari to perform His material lilas. They are devotees, and Hari creates the conditions to them to be always satisfied here and hereafter.

Already it has been pointed out that some of us missed the passing out of eternal satisfaction, which Hari was giving to all the conditioned living entities. Also it has been pointed out that Krishna says this world is a place of suffering (duhkhalayam), not a place of eternal satisfaction.

 

Now it is being pointed out that you claim all the jivas suffering are devotees of the Lord. Again my point was, "What determines that we are put into the suffering lila, and another living entity is put into the blissul Vaikuntha lila." Your answer is we can't understand God. My response is such a God is apparently being partial to some devotees by giving them ananda and giving others duhkha (suffering) without any choice of their own.

 

I for one would rather be in the ananda lila; maybe you are happy in the present lila of suffering birth and death.

 

I can accept that I am here because of my own fault; you prefer to pass the blame to a God who just flips a coin; some go here, some go there.

 

The creation is the lila of the Lord, but who takes part in this lila is left to the living entity to choose.

 

[Guest guest]

Jndas: I can accept that I am here because of my own fault; you prefer to pass the blame to a God who just flips a coin; some go here, some go there.

 

The creation is the lila of the Lord, but who takes part in this lila is left to the living entity to choose.

 

Satyaraj: Again you are pointing out different theologies on how Hari sports.

 

Sruti and Gita states that the jivas are the support of this material world, that is a place meant to Hari's lilas. Therefore some theologians prefer to infer that Hari is always merciful towards His devotees who are serving Him by supporting this material world. Even in Gaudiya-vaisnavism we find this theology. Kavikarnapura has mentioned it in his Ananta Vrindavana Campu. Different acaryas of other darsanas also prefer this theory.

 

Some others prefer the inference that jiva's fall down was caused by his misdeeds, and this material is a kind of a prison house. This is also the Semitic point of view stressed in Bible. Some may consider it as a perpetual prison, others as a temporary prison.

 

Some smrtis state that jiva has fallen from the Causal Ocean, and they actually never had been at Vaikuntha. This jivas are tatastha, or of a marginal tendency. They may live in the spiritual realm or in the material realm. They are generated by the skin of the Maha Visnu who is in a yoga-nindra state, and these jiva are also sleeping. They are immature and cannot make any option. The Maha Visnu send them here and there according to His free will, placing them by the glances of His eyes. This theology does not give any free will to these tatastha jivas.

 

Sankara consider jiva as Brahman covered by avidya. But many theologians would say that his jiva-tattva is inconsistent as he cannot establish the cause of this avidya.

 

Acttualy I personally prefer the theology that consider Hari as merciful, sportive and a joker, whose lilas are impossible to understand. Jivas are His minute and fragile parts and parcels, Hari would never be a sadist who places these defenseless jivas into a prison house. This is not His nature.

 

[Maitreya]

Satyaraj:Sruti and Gita states that the jivas are the support of this material world, that is a place meant to Hari's lilas.

 

Jivas support this world by our misdirected desires.The Lord kindly allows some facility for us to work them out of our system.In other words to beat our heads against the wall until we become exhausted enough to listen to reason.

 

Satyaraja, please explain the nature of these so-called lilas that we are all supposed to be engaged in with Hari.The activities just don't fit my present conception of lila.Like the 'World War's lila' where people are bombed and gassed.Or the living beings getting 'smashed by trucks in the street lila'.How about the 'being eaten alive lila' that lower forms are experiencing.

Other than rescuing the living entities please detail how Hari is relishing sporting in this way.

 

Some others prefer the inference that jiva's fall down was caused by his misdeeds, and this material is a kind of a prison house. This is also the Semitic point of view stressed in Bible. Some may consider it as a perpetual prison, others as a temporary prison.

 

Prision refers to being bound in avidya.What does baddha-jiva mean?

 

 

Acttualy I personally prefer the theology that consider Hari as merciful, sportive and a joker, whose lilas are impossible to understand. Jivas are His minute and fragile parts and parcels, Hari would never be a sadist who places these defenseless jivas into a prison house. This is not His nature.

 

You are trying to have it both ways.You say Hari would never send defenseless jivas into a prision house.We agree, He didn't, we did.

 

But then you do say He sends everyone into the material dimension.How can you deny material life is a imprisioned state?

 

Hari thinks it is.Not for Him,but for us. That is why He comes from time to time or sends His representitive to reform us.

 

Please explain according to your theories, what is meant by baddha-jiva.

 

YS MC

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maiteya: Please explain according to your theories, what is meant by baddha-jiva.

 

Satyaraj: Please do not have the concept that these theories are mine. Badarayana Rsi actually has said in his Brahma-sutras that all theories that try to explain Hari's 'modus operandi' should be discard (Vedanta 2.2.1-45). That's to say, all sort of religion (theologies) should be abandoned, sankhya, vaisesika, pasupata, jaina, sunyam, yoga, Buddhism, and sakta, etc. are all strongly refuted by him. Hari states the same in Gita (18.66). Gaudiya's theology is mainly sakta. It tries to explain Hari's lilas by the action of His saktis, or energies. But Badarayana Muni has rejected this theology too.

 

The concepts of baddha-jiva and mukta-jiva are theological conceptions. They are not absolute at all, and may be helpful in a religious system. Not all religious systems adopt these conceptions.

 

Sruti state that in fact jiva never suffer any death, or any birth. Sukha and dukha are not soul's conceptions, but material conceptions created by mind. They are very relative and one's suffer and happiness cannot be understood by someone else.

 

Hari does not have anything to do with jiva's karma-vasana and with the results of his karma. Karma-vasana is the expression of jiva's free will until he shows full saranagati for Him. This jiva's option is always opened.

 

Some jivas are not interested in mukti in spite of their condition of mukta-jivas, and they prefer to stay at this brahmanda in some administrative works, even if they have to face material death and birth and some other material conditions. That's way some acaryas such as Madhva and Vallabha prefer to classify different kinds of jivas in this universe according to their position, and not only as baddha-jivas.

 

Regarding your argument that prison refers to being bound in avidya, Vedanta states that vidya is also a material condition. It is not transcendental. Vidya is a material condition that may leads to mukti or not, as mukti always depends on Hari's Grace and never on jiva's material conditions. Brahmavit stage is Hari's Grace, not the absence of avidya caused by vidya, as one may be very learned in Vedas and he may not be a brahmavit.

 

You termed material creation, maintenance and destruction as a so-called lilas that we are all supposed to be engaged in with Hari, and that these activities just don't fit your present conception of lila. But Bhagavata Purana's 2nd Canto, supported by Vedanta's (2.1.33) clearly state that these activities are Hari's lilas, and that these lilas are very difficult to understand.