Genetics and the three modes

[atma]

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, Ch.3, text6:

 

Translation:

 

Narakasura, the son of Dharitri, the earth, tried to grasp the whole sky, and for this he was killed by the Lord in a fight. His mother then prayed to the Lord. This led to the return of the kingdom to the son of Narakasura, and thus the Lord entered the house of the demon.

 

Purport:

 

It is said in other Puranas that Narakasura was the son of Dharitri, the earth, by the Lord Himself. But he became a demon due to the bad association of Bana, another demon. An atheist is called a demon, and it is a fact that even a person born of good parents can turn into a demon by bad association. Birth is not always the criterion of goodness; unless and until one is trained in the culture of good association, one cannnot become good.

[atma]

Maitreya:

I did not get how from popping a blister in your big toe you got a case of cellulitis??? Most women suffer from cellulitis and they don't finish in the ER.

Something wrong somewhere?

 

[This message has been edited by atma (edited 07-24-2001).]

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

 

You termed material creation, maintenance and destruction as a so-called lilas that we are all supposed to be engaged in with Hari, and that these activities just don't fit your present conception of lila. But Bhagavata Purana's 2nd Canto, supported by Vedanta's (2.1.33) clearly state that these activities are Hari's lilas, and that these lilas are very difficult to understand.

 

 

O King, the rivers are the veins of the gigantic body, the trees are the hairs of His body, and the omnipotent air is His breath. The passing ages are His movements, and His activities are the reactions of the three modes of material nature.SB 2.1.33

 

In this section the virat-rupa is being described.

 

Do you consider that Krishna's lila in Goloka is comparably equal to His represented activities as the three gunas?

[Maitreya]

Jndas,

 

Sorry for the multiple posts.My browser just flipped out.Or is it Hari just sporting about?Hmmm...?

 

I've rebooted and it looks okay now.I am sure you will delete them.Sorry.

 

atma,cellulitis is different from cellulite.Are you thinking of that?That cottage cheese pattern women get especially on the thighs?

 

I got some bacteria trapped under the skin and it entered my blood stream.I woke up Sunday to this bright red streak running up a vein.It had reached my inner thigh.Blood poisoning.Not too painfull but very dangerous.

 

I'm fed up.Very tired of trying to play with Hari on this third class playground composed of the three gunas.I'm tired of playing pretend that my suffering is bliss.How about you?Let's go Home,back(?) to loving Krishna.

 

YS MC

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maitreya: Do you consider that Krishna's lila in Goloka is comparably equal to His represented activities as the three gunas?

 

Satyaraja: This is an interesting point indeed. When Krsna has showed Arjuna His virat-rupa, He has given him the vision of a devata. Arjuna got terrified with that vision and he has asked Krsna why that happened. Krsna told him that He gave him the vision of a devata but not the mind of a devata.

 

Devata's devotion is quite different than a parisada's devotion. One is termed by aisvarya and the other is termed by madhurya. Their minds are quite different. Are there devatas playing with Krsna in samvyoma's lilas? Are there gopis and gopas controlling hells in this material world?

 

Hari has different sports with different kind of devotees. Maybe that is the reason why parisadas' instructions to their followers are to leave and to reject this material world, while devatas' instructions to their followers are to remain up here and to relish this material world without attachment. Both instructions can be found in sruti texts.

 

[animesh]

It is fascinating in a ghastly sort of way, to see one's body just start to rot right off oneself.

 

But I feel very sad thinking that one day this would happen to me. I don't understand how you find this fascinating.

 

[This message has been edited by animesh (edited 07-25-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Maybe that is the reason why parisadas' instructions to their followers are to leave and to reject this material world, while devatas' instructions to their followers are to remain up here and to relish this material world without attachment.

You impy that the Devas and nitya-parshadas (eternal associates) of the Lord are different; but we find many cases where the devas are themselves nitya-parshadas. Thus your conclusion that devas speak material instructions and nitya-parshadas speak spiritual instructions is incorrect. Also one can find many instances of nitya-parshadas speaking material instructions to those who are interested in such conclusions. What to speak of the parshadas, the Lord Himself speaks all varieties of instructions to benefit all varieties of living entities.

 

The devas are a category of life form. It has nothing at all to do with the level of spiritual understanding or advancement. Thus your conclusion is similar to saying something like "Germans always speak about pure devotion whereas Chinese always speak about material life." It is an absurd statement.

 

In general the devas are pious living entities engaged someway or another in the service of the Lord, and thus there is a higher percentage of devotees among them then among the other human species.

 

Devata's devotion is quite different than a parisada's devotion.

Based on the above point, this statement of yours is equally invalid. 'Deva' and 'parshada' are two completely unrelated categories. One refers to a species of birth, whereas the other refers to an eternal level of consciousness.

 

Karma-vasana is the expression of jiva's free will until he shows full saranagati for Him.

So you accept that the jivas are not surrendered to the Lord at the present. Thus the argument that we are also devotees serving the Lord through His creation lila is false.

 

But Bhagavata Purana's 2nd Canto, supported by Vedanta's (2.1.33) clearly state that these activities are Hari's lilas, and that these lilas are very difficult to understand.

You are arguing against an imaginary person. It is accepted that the material creation is the Lord's lila. What is disagreed upon is why some jivas are in this lila where they suffer, and others are in the Vaikuntha lila where they enjoy.

 

Hari does not have anything to do with jiva's karma-vasana and with the results of his karma. Karma-vasana is the expression of jiva's free will until he shows full saranagati for Him. This jiva's option is always opened.

So after all your talk about how the jiva is not the cause of his bondage because it is all Hari's own will, you finally come to the point of saying the jiva is the cause of his own bondage?

 

That's to say, all sort of religion (theologies) should be abandoned, sankhya, vaisesika, pasupata, jaina, sunyam, yoga, Buddhism, and sakta...

Sankhya, Vaiseshika, Yoga, etc., of the shad-darshanas are not religions, they are systems of vedic philosophy (darshanas).

 

Gaudiya's theology is mainly sakta.

You don't have a fundamental understanding of the divisions of religion and philosophy in Vedic thought, and you use technical words like shakta, vaiseshika, etc., in distorted manners.

 

Shakta is a religion enunciated in the agamas. It is one of the five divisions of Vedic worship, the others being Shaiva, Saurya, Ganapatya, and Vaishnava. Gaudiya philosophy is neither based on the shaktagama, nor supports the conclusions of the shaktagama.

 

You seem to want to justify your rejecting Gaudiya teachings by somehow finding fault with them. In the end, after so much talking, you finally say the same conclusion, that the jiva is the cause of his bondage. What's the point of going around in circles?

 

It tries to explain Hari's lilas by the action of His saktis, or energies. But Badarayana Muni has rejected this theology too.

Practically every vaidika siddhanta explains the function of God in terms of himself and his shakti. Your thinking that such a conclusion indicates that it is a shakta school is foolish. You have read too little of too many books, and the result is you do not have proper definitions for what you speak. In such a situation you like to speak on all sorts of topics, which just mislead readers who are not familiar with these topics. Then after a couple weeks you change your opinion like the grasshopper jumping from one patch of grass to another; but by then you have already confused many people. Your interest is not to help others in their spiritual life, it is simply to philosophize about reality. Thus you don't seem to feel bad about the manner in which you misrepresent conclusions. A couple months ago you were fighting and criticizing some other schools of philosophy, then like the grasshopper you hopped to another view. What about all the people you had mislead at that time? After a couple months you will again hop to someother view, and you won't think twice about what you speak in the present. It is true that some people preach due to their own insecurity in their faith. This is not how it should be. We should speak for the eternal benefit of all, and not just to smash our own doubts.

 

As a general rule, one should not follow fly by night philosophers, for they may have changed their view by the time you wake up in the morning.

 

[Guest guest]

Jndas: In the end, after so much talking, you finally say the same conclusion, that the jiva is the cause of his bondage.

 

Satyaraj: That is not my conclusion, that's is your inference on a conclusion that I did not make. Most of the theories on jiva's 'avant premiere' at this material world state that karma-vasana comes after the development of ahamkara an mamata, not before. So, jiva's desires for karma are not the cause of his bondage.

 

I had stressed that some theologies in sanatana-dharma stress the 'dream-like' condition of a dormant jiva in the moment that he is placed in this material world having no option, while others stress that jiva is a kind of wrongdoer and he comes to this world to be punished.

 

Jndas: You impy that the Devas and nitya-parshadas (eternal associates) of the Lord are different; but we find many cases where the devas are themselves nitya-parshadas.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, that is right in many cases devas are themselves nitya-parshadas. I did not had stated that they are different, but that their relationship with Hari in the lilas is different. One is termed by aisvarya and the other is termed by madhurya.

 

If you only see the devas as category of life form, your previous statement that you found out 'in many cases where the devas are themselves nitya-parshadas,' is contradictory. By following your reasoning we could say that gopis and gopas are also only categories of life forms.

 

I had only make distinctions between devas and parikaras according to the kind of their mood of devotion: aisvarya and madhurya. Visvanatha has made this same distinction while commenting Gita's 11th Chapter. Better you read his beautiful commentary.

 

Jndas: What is disagreed upon is why some jivas are in this lila where they suffer, and others are in the Vaikuntha lila where they enjoy.

 

Satyaraj: This is your opinion and disagreement on Hari's lilas. That is not Hari's opinion. Are you envious on the jivas who are at Vaikhunta enjoying? Do you want to administrate Hari's lila? To establish His 'modus operandi'?

 

Jndas: ...(you) just mislead readers who are not familiar with these topics. Then after a couple weeks you change your opinion like the grasshopper jumping from one patch of grass to another; but by then you have already confused many people. Your interest is not to help others in their spiritual life, it is simply to philosophize about reality.

 

Satyaraj: You are right in your premise. I am not a guru, I do not have any sect, math, or asrama, I am not a religious one, and not a faithful one. I am plagued by countless faults and I am unqualified to help or to disturb someone in his path. Philosophy and theological arguments are not eternal truths, but inferences that we make on Hari's eternal statements, therefore one can change his opinion on such premises at any time. I believe that the scope of forums like that is to discuss these philosophical and theological arguments, and not to covert people to our own beliefs. Perhaps I am in the wrong place; is this a sectarian forum meant to covert people to a specific creed?

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 07-25-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Jndas: Practically every vaidika siddhanta explains the function of God in terms of himself and his shakti.

 

Satyaraj: This is a non-sense. No one else follows Pañcaratra like Gaudiyas. Shakti's theory is an exclusivity of Gaudiya's theology and a conclusion inferred by Pañcaratras.

 

In his famous work called 'Anubhasya' , Shri Vallabhacharya has used the Vedanta-sutras (2.2.43, 44, 45) to refute the theory of 'Pañcharatras'. According to the 'Pañcharatras' the universe is the work of Brahman which is four-fold. The four 'vyuhas' according to them are 'Vasudev', 'Sankarsan', 'Pradyumna', and 'Aniruddha'. The 'Vasudev vyuha' is the root cause from which 'Sankarsana' the 'Jiva' emerges. Out of this 'Sankarsana vyuha' emerges 'Pradyumna' which is 'mind' and from this emerges 'Aniruddha vyuha' which is ego ('Ahamkara'). Now, the first sutra (2.2.43) says " Na ca kartuh-karanam ", which is explained by Shri Vallabhacharya as " Just as a potter's staff cannot be produced out of the potter himself, in the same way, an instrumental cause cannot be produced out of its 'Kartta'. Therefore, the theory that 'Pradyumna 'emerges out of 'Sankarsana' does not hold ground because 'Sankarsana' according to their theory is of 'Jiva' category.

 

The next sutra (2.2.44) says "Vidnyanadi bhave va Tad apratishedhah", i.e. if you say that all the four 'vyuhas' hold the six 'dharmas' viz. 'Gnana', 'Shakti', 'Aishwarya', 'Bal', 'Virya' and 'Teja', then that too is not possible

because in that case the acceptance of 'many Ishwara theory' will take place. This goes against the theory of 'single Ishwara' believed by the 'Pañcharatras'. The last sutra (2.2.45) says "Vipratishedhat cha" which means that the 'Pañcharatras' theory happens to believe in too many imaginations and moreover, it also condemns 'Vedas'. Therefore, their theory cannot be accepted. This is how Shri Vallabhacharya has explained these three sutras.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I said:

Practically every vaidika siddhanta explains the function of God in terms of himself and his shakti.

And you replied:

This is a non-sense. No one else follows Pañcaratra like Gaudiyas. Shakti's theory is an exclusivity of Gaudiya's theology and a conclusion inferred by Pañcaratras.

Again you are really in a confused state. I am speaking about vaidika siddhantas and you are babling something about pancharatras.

 

And as far as following pancharatras, they are followed by Madhva and Ramanuja as well; so you are wrong there, even though it had nothing to do with what I was speaking about.

 

The theory of isvara and shakti is present in all Agamas (in a technical senses, not refering to pancharatras which are sometimes called as agamas). Even in the darshanas the theory of isvara and shakti are accepted to varying degrees.

 

Anyway, I don't have time to discuss these topics with you. I would suggest you find a guru who will teach you these subjects, or at least take up a serious study of these topics in a systematic manner.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 07-25-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

By the way, your sudden changes in methods of spelling words is a clear give away of your copying from other sources. Switching between hindi-ized words, sanskrit, northern pronunciation, southern pronunciation, etc., are dead give aways.

 

You used to do this when you were criticizing other schools of philosophy, now you are doing the same with Vallabha's teachings.

[Guest guest]

Jndas: By the way, your sudden changes in methods of spelling words is a clear give away of your copying from other sources.

 

Satyaraj: While pointing out Sri Vallabha's point of view what kind of source would you imagine I should use? Maybe Muslin sources? Or Gaudiya sources as you has employed in the other thread?

 

[atma]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

 

 

atma,cellulitis is different from cellulite.Are you thinking of that?That cottage cheese pattern women get especially on the thighs?

 

I got some bacteria trapped under the skin and it entered my blood stream.I woke up Sunday to this bright red streak running up a vein.It had reached my inner thigh.Blood poisoning.Not too painfull but very dangerous.

 

I'm fed up.Very tired of trying to play with Hari on this third class playground composed of the three gunas.I'm tired of playing pretend that my suffering is bliss.How about you?Let's go Home,back(?) to loving Krishna.

 

YS MC

 

 

I'm very ignorant in all this terms . Good that you're OK now.

 

I agree 100% that it's time to get serious and go to loving Krsna. Back or not it doesn't matter to me. Just lets get out of here. No more lives in this material world. I like that: "playing pretend that my suffering is bliss". So true.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

atma: Just lets get out of here. No more lives in this material world. I like that: "playing pretend that my suffering is bliss". So true.

 

Satyaraj: Then, according to sruti (Vedanta Adhikarana 13), and corroborated by Gita , Hari will quickly come to rescue you. In that case Hari won't wish that you should remain behind only to help humankind. He will destroy immediately your prarabdha-karma (good and bad deeds) and will give you mukti. This an exception that He left opened to His nirapeksa devotees.

 

Most will have to follow the path of archi, the path of light, through 13 successive stages at different lokas until Satya-loka, in a gradual evolutionary process. Very slowly indeed. At the time of their departure from a material body, their soul will have to enter the coronal artery (the hundred first artery among one hundred other paths). At that time, Hari Himself will conduce them showing them the way. Most of sages go to Hari's world by this path, after so many lifetimes. Meanwhile, they will remain at these material worlds, serving Hari's lilas of creation, support and destruction of these worlds in different ways.

 

Hari is always merciful and compassionate!

[Bhakta Shakta]

Previously posted:

atma,cellulitis is different from cellulite.Are you thinking of that?That cottage cheese pattern women get especially on the thighs?

 

something needs to be done about this. it has become a national tragedy. I don't need thoughts of cottage cheese watching thighs.

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Shakta (edited 07-27-2001).]

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Bhakta Shakta:

Previously posted:

something needs to be done about this. it has become a national tragedy. I don't need thoughts of cottage cheese watching thighs.

 

Lol.I know what you mean.It's just impossible to maintain the false enjoying spirit when the cottage cheese conception comes in.Makes no difference large curd or small.

 

"Blood and fat,just blood and fat".

 

I go to Vraja in late Sept.First trip but better late than never.

 

[Bhakta Shakta]

Previously posted by maitreya:

Lol.I know what you mean.It's just impossible to maintain the false enjoying spirit when the cottage cheese conception comes in.Makes no difference large curd or small.

Cottage cheese conception or Pamela Anderson Conception. Same side of the Same coin.

"Blood and fat,just blood and fat".

 

Gopala and Venu,just Gopala and Venu.

 

I go to Vraja in late Sept.First trip but better late than never.

 

alright that is great to here.

 

Keep a journal of your visit.Make sure you include a list of the preparations you went through in getting there (travel-visa etc...).Also make sure you visit the Radha-Raman mandir and tell me what it was like.Tell me if you see Nitai's or Jahnavi's bhajan-kutir there.See you around.

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Shakta (edited 07-28-2001).]

[Bhakta Shakta]

who deleted this post?

 

Originally posted by Maitreya:

 

 

atma,cellulitis is different from cellulite.Are you thinking of that?That cottage cheese pattern women get especially on the thighs?

 

I got some bacteria trapped under the skin and it entered my blood stream.I woke up Sunday to this bright red streak running up a vein.It had reached my inner thigh.Blood poisoning.Not too painfull but very dangerous.

 

I'm fed up.Very tired of trying to play with Hari on this third class playground composed of the three gunas.I'm tired of playing pretend that my suffering is bliss.How about you?Let's go Home,back(?) to loving Krishna.

 

YS MC

 

 

I thought you went to visit Bharata. You won't have to see much cottage cheese there but chocolate candies.