Modern Bhajans???

[Gauracandra]

I was wondering what people would think about temple singing that was done in English, and with western tunes? Would this be appropriate? The problem I see would be not to just have any song, but rather a highly spiritually advance person who would write devotional songs. Right now all singing is based in Sanskrit or Bengali. I know some people don't even like modern musical instrumentation in the kirtans, though I tend to like it. Indradyumna Swami once came to my temple and led a really nice, mellow kirtan, and in the background one devotee was playing an electric guitar. It was really nice and in the mode of goodness. So what do you guys think of both singing in the language of the country the temple is located in (whether it be English, Spanish, Russian, French etc...) and the use of modern instruments. Just curious what your thoughts might be on this.

 

Gauracandra

[Jagat]

Dear Gaurachandra,

 

I think that this is an inevitable and necessary step for the eventual propagation of Krishna consciousness. It will be interesting to see how and when it happens. You may know that there was a lot of artistic activity in the movement during Prabhupada's time on the planet, but in a letter to Sankarshan he nixed anyone who wasn't a pure devotee writing bhajans. The crushing of the Road Show was another backward step for such developments.

 

There are always going to be divided opinions on the question of using the vernacular. Just recently I heard a French Canadian comedian joke about how everyone stopped going to church when the mass changed from Latin to the vernacular. The foreignness of the "sacred language" adds a certain "otherness" to the rituals that helps the devotee go outside himself into another space, making it easy for him to forget his identification with his body.

 

I tend to belong to this school, to be honest with you. I always like my religion in foreign languages... A perfectly banal statement, if made in Sanskrit, suddenly sounds profound and quotable. The problem is that once you learn Sanskrit, you penetrate its mystery and it might sound completely banal again! (You might want to read Jeffrey Masson's autobiography "My Father's Guru" for a case in point.)

 

Still, I think it is inevitable that essential concepts of Krishna consciousness will need to be artistically presented in vernacular languages and sung congregationally in order for Krishna consciousness to be spread more widely. Perhaps a hybrid style of Indian and western music will catch on.

 

Remember that Bengali songs about Radha and Krishna were the medium through which Krishna consciousness spread in Bengal. Historically, bhakti movements have always been vernacular-based, starting with the Alvars. These "home-grown" saints tended not to be Brahmins, who preserved their status by their ownership of the sacred language and texts. Making the religion vernacular-based was another way of empowering the people and democratizing religious experience.

 

Nevertheless, I imagine that the language of the vernacular hymns to come will contain many Bengali and Sanskrit words, the ones that have become a part of every western Vaishnava's vocabulary -- bhakti, prem, raga, etc, a kind of "mani-pravala" or combination of pearls and coral, as the Sri Vaishnavas call it.

 

Haribol,

 

Jagat

[Bhakta's Gopala]

"Let is come from the heart of a suddha-bhakta. The Hare-Krsna mantra is published in english around the world.

 

Why are the Goswami's literary works most in Sanksrit? Not Persian, Urdu, Arabic, or Hindi. This is a question for the advanced scholars of Chaitanyaite Vedanta on these forums.

 

Good luck."

[Bhakta's Gopala]

Posted by jagat das

"I think that this is an inevitable and necessary step for the eventual propagation of Krishna consciousness. It will be interesting to see how and when it happens. You may know that there was a lot of artistic activity in the movement during Prabhupada's time on the planet, but in a letter to Sankarshan he nixed anyone who wasn't a pure devotee writing bhajans. The crushing of the Road Show was another backward step for such developments."

 

 

What is the name of this Sankarshan and when was He incorrectly initiated by HDG? Provide us more information regarding this topic.

 

Sincerely,

 

The Bhakta's Gopala waiting for Pizza. YUM.

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta's Gopala (edited 08-01-2001).]

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

(a)I was wondering what people would think about temple singing that was done in English,

(b) and with western tunes?

© some people don't even like modern musical instrumentation in the kirtans ,

(d) what do you guys think

 

(a) Fine ! After all Bengali, Hindi etc are vernaculars just like English. As long as the names Radha, Krishna and so on are untouched (as far as possible within the idiosyncrasies of speakers of various languages including the variety within India itself).

 

(b) "western tunes" - what are these? Most traditional folk music throughout the world tend to be based on ancient airs as is the Raag based music of the indian sub continent. Sometimes when I have taken a friend, who might do Celtic or Irish singing, to my parents' house, my father, on hearing a song for the first time, will immediately render it on his beat up harmonium and sing a bhajan in Hindi to the "new" melody. The Celtic mode may carry the yearning of the song just as well as an Indian mode.

Personally I dont see a great divide between

east west melodies per se. (The division tends to be reinforced more by attitude, style and approach to the music.) If the focus is soulful, one may find passage along any of the various streams blissful.

 

© A lot of the purists for traditional instruments in "indian" music forget that the harmonium is really a german instrument introduced hundreds of years ago by missionaries.

 

According to some traditions the lineage of all instruments can ultimately be traced back to the human voice. The voice - the most traditional and yet the most universal!

 

In the early days in Melbourne there was singing with just bongos, guitars and Upendra with his violin. Kirtans were ecstatic.

 

(d) "Guys"? what about the "gals"? They have made some of the most significant contribution to bhajans in the "west".

 

 

[mahak]

Haribol, this is opinion only. As a musician who has done many original melodies, it has been a great boon to have the music of the self introduced by my Guru Maharaja. Some have said that "only" certain tunes are bonafide, but I personally regard that music fits into the catagory of what Lord Krsna states "I am the ability in humankind".

 

I, myself, cannot find better words than the one's given by my spiritual master, but the tunes often create everfresh variety which symbolizes the variegatedness of the spiritual world. So, The Hare Krsna mantra is done to dancehall reggae, loreena mckennett type lovliness, bob dylan ballads (in tribute to my old mentor, gaurasundara das), and my own phi slamma jamma style when I feel a little wildness.

 

Lyrical praise of the Lord is also quite nice, and if one is a songwriter by nature, it is only natural that psalms of praise of the Supreme Lord will come from a devotee of the Lord. Srila Prabhupada may have stopped the "road show" but not because of the "english songs", it was done to curb the "rock star" mentality that was being formed, not necessarily by jayatirtha and other devotees in the group, but for those who wanted to make their devotional service a "rock and roll" experiance. Egomania and "wannabeism" are things that a spiritual master must curb in the desire of disciples.

 

Srila Prabhupada often encouraged artistic disciples in their creativity and helped them dovetail their art with Krsna pleasing activities.

 

Good question, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadassa

[atma]

One devotee from Venezuela, Havi Das, has very nice songs in Spanish and he is very famous in his country. TK has this nice Gaura Arati in English in a very melodious tune. I enjoy the songs of different devotees but I won't change the bhajans at the temple. The Sanskrit and Bengali are very sweet to hear and chant.

 

Hey Mahak, I like Loreena McKennett too.

I don't like some devotees who try to imitate rock-and-roll and come out with a very poor version of it.

 

In Vrindavan you hear all over the place the famous Hindi film songs but with devotional lyrics and they have a very catchy tune. Without thinking you catch yourself singing along with the song.

 

Radhe Radhe rato chale ayenge Bihari!

 

Chant Radha Radha and Bihari will come to you!

[Gauracandra]

I think certainly in the short term all temple kirtans will be done in Sanskrit and Bengali. I can’t exactly picture what English kirtans would be like, or how to maintain quality control. But certainly for wider distribution of Krsna Consciousness I think music of all styles should be embraced. I overheard one black devotee a few months back saying he was using rap to reach people in the inner city. I don’t think rap would be appropriate in the temple, but hey if it works, and people are receptive to the message of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu through rap go for it.

 

I like the idea of having all sorts of musical forms express the Gaudiya Vaisnava theology. Not that I would want to hear them in the temple, or all the time, but simply as a way of having a diverse set of sounds. I have wondered what various bhajans would sound like performed in a choir, where you have professional singers of all vocal ranges, in harmony. Or what about a barbershop quartet style rendering. Devotees like Mangalananda have made some nice folk-country devotional songs. There have been some punk renderings –like in the whole “Straight-edge” scene. As I understand it there are some devotees who are very big musicians in “Straight-edge” style punk rock. Personally I’m not real familiar with it. As I understand it Straight-edgers don’t eat meat, don’t smoke, don’t drink alcohol, don’t have sex before marriage, but are into heavy punk rock music. So devotees have done well in this music genre. Also, isn’t there a band in England that was very successful called Kulashaker? I remember reading about them. They combined rock and traditional devotional songs and were very successful in England. I think they even had a few number one hits. I’d be interested in hearing some of their music.

 

If nothing else the Maha-mantra is very flexible and suits almost all music styles I have heard it in. Partly this is due to its simplicity and the fact that it wraps around on itself creating a continuous loop. So I think a philosophy based so much on music and sound should embrace all sorts of musical forms. Devotional artistic expressions will certainly enhance all of our spiritual lives.

 

Gauracandra

 

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 08-02-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Kirtans and Padas of Pushti Marg

 

Kirtans are different from most bhajans in that they describe a lila of the Lord and are essentially full of joy.

 

Joy of Yashoda playing with her Natakhata Nanda-Kishor.

Joy of Gopal and his friends playing in the woods of Vrindavan.

Joy of gopies roaming the flowering groves of Kadamb, tala, Madhu etc on the banks of the sacred Yamuna.

Joy of the Lord's lila with his beloved gopies, stealing their butter, their clothes and their hearts.

Joy of the Lord appeasing his beloved gopi, having upset her by his infidelities.

Joy of devotees appreciating the grace of their beloved Lord upon them.

 

All this and more is expressed in a poetry and sung in the various classical ragas.

 

Rarely do kirtans and padas express sadness at being alive, or express a complaint against the Lord for the woes of life. Even when there is a complaint, it is about the Lord stealing their hearts, or butter - never about being poor or less fortunate than others. This is what really sets padas and kirtans apart from the conventional bhajans.

 

The original padas and Kirtans were written by the devotees who were initially converted to Pushti Marg by Shri Vallabhacharyaji and Shri Gusaiji. They were inspired by the visions inspired by their conversion and were blessed enough to experience and indeed "see" the lilas of the Lord. The joy of this insight into the Lord's lila sprouted forth as poetry. The sublime nature of this has inspired countless devotees and literary great throughout the last 500 years.

 

Of the true "greats" amongst Pushti Poets, Surdas commands a special place of honour. He is well known for his wide range of poetry and his ability of express the most complex of human emotions in the most simplest of words. Unlike most others, his poetry is well known outside the sect and his padas are sung throughout India.

 

Though born blind, he was a gifted child and was a revered saint even before he met Shri Vallabh. Upon his

conversion, he renounced his own status as a "guru" in his own right and became a disciple of Shri Vallabh. He wrote a huge number of padas and kirtans and is reputed to have written 100,000 poems. His "Sur-sagar"

literally an "Ocean of Music", is a vast collection of Surdas's works. Unfortunately, some are now lost, but

through the efforts of many vaisnavas and scholars, much is now published in various languages. The aura of thegreat saint is such that many tales have grown up around him. One such tale is that once, Surdas was upset at the thought that he was now too old to write any more and will not be able to reach his goal of 100,000 poems he wanted to write. Ever compassionate, the Lord and Shri Radha came to his rescue and wrote padas to help him complete the Sur-sagar for him, writing many padas in Surdas' name.

 

Others have continued the tradition of the poet saints of Pushti Marg and these have been preserved in the

collections of various havelies around India. Written in Vraj-bhasha - the language of the people of Vraj, the padas retain the original feel of how the Lord and his friends might have communicated. It is a very sweet dialect of Hindi and is full of raw beauty. Some of the padas were written in Sanskrit and much later, some were written in Gujarati and other regional languages of the Vaishnavs. These are often known as dhoula and kirtans.

 

The idea of popular bhajans and kirtans in the vernacular of the place is already followed by Sri Vallabha's sampradaya. But they use to sing the poems of the sampradayas' saints in vernacular, and aren't compositions made by some lay people.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Didn't Kieth Ham in Non Vrndaban have the songs and bhajans translated into English?

 

 

 

------------------

The heart of the wise inclines to the right,

but the heart of the fool to the left.

[Ecclesiastes 10:2]

[Jagat]

I decided to check this rather laughable attempt by Bhutabhavana to quote the Bible with obvious political intent.

 

There are basically two versions of this verse:

 

(Authorized version, King James, etc.)

 

"A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left."

 

The one BB uses is close to the Revised Standard Version:

 

"A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."

 

In either case, however, to think that left and right can be interpreted according to modern political categories is sheer nonsense.

 

See how the word "left" is used in the Gospel according to Matthew:

 

<blockquote>36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.</blockquote>

 

[Guest guest]

Liberalism wins because of its essentially satanic glamour, which appeals to and propagates all that is weak, broken and ugly in mankind:

 

If you are lazy, it offers a handout.

If you are stupid, it dumbs down your competition.

If you are worthless, it offers (false) self-esteem.

If you are confused, it says that certainty is the REAL confusion.

If you are evil, it offers a denial of guilt.

If you are a liar, it offers a denial of the existence of truth.

If you are a slave to sin, it names your shackles, FREEDOM.

If you are a coward, it offers its own false security.

 

 

[This message has been edited by rand0M aXiS (edited 08-03-2001).]

[Jagat]

So I take it that you are not really into the Gospel? Which says, "blessed are the meek", etc.

[Jagat]

Actually, the more I look at your statement, the more I see the huge excuse for intolerance that it is. The smug self-superiority of the so-called winners in society. And the essential weakness that it masks.

 

All human beings are weak. We all grow old, we are all diseased and we all die. We are shackled by original sin, or if you like by the immemorial desire to lord it over material nature. We don't want to admit that when we see weakness, disease and sin, that it is ourselves that we see, "but for the grace of fortune." And that grace is only a hair's breadth thin.

 

The air's thin up there in the mountains, BB Prabhu. But Mahaprabhu's humbly suggests becoming "lower than the straw in the street."

 

The doctrine that associates material success with the blessings of the Supreme Lord goes against both the faith of my childhood and the faith of my adoption. It makes the rich hypocrite the spokesman for religious truth and that to me is the most detestable state and the bane of modern America.

 

Humbly yours,

 

Jagat

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Jagat:

So I take it that you are not really into the Gospel? Which says, "blessed are the meek", etc.

Nah, you can inherit the earth. I'll take the Kingdom of God.

 

 

---------

 

"It is the soldier, not the reporter,

"Who has given us freedom of the press.

 

"It is the soldier, not the poet,

"Who has given us freedom of speech.

 

"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,

"Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

 

"It is the soldier,

"Who salutes the flag,

"Who serves beneath the flag,

"And whose coffin is draped by the flag,

"Who allows the protester to burn the flag."

 

-- Father Denis Edward O'Brien, U.S. Marine Corps

[Gauracandra]

Random,

 

I must say I love that last quote you gave about the glory of the soldier. God bless those who have served and died to protect our freedoms.

 

Gauracandra

[Guest guest]

Actually, the more I read Jagat's writings, the more I see why Srila Prabhupada threw him out of the movement.

 

He claims to be humble, but it is a false facade that is evident in his puffed-up scholasticism. He thinks he knows more that the acaryas in our guru-varga.

 

-----------

<font size="4">Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

 

LUKE 22:36</font>

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Random,

 

I must say I love that last quote you gave about the glory of the soldier. God bless those who have served and died to protect our freedoms.

 

Gauracandra

 

Thank you and you are most welcome.

 

--------

TEN GOOD THINGS ABOUT GUNS:

 

10. They won the west.

9. They helped win freedom for slaves

8. They won the Gulf War in record time.

7. They won WW1

6. They won WW2

5. They win wars period!

4. Police use them for protection.

3. They are used for self-defence to protect homes.

2. They won your rights for freedom of speech to post stupid liberal commericals

1. We got them, and you don't! When your utopia goes to hell, your the ones that'll be killed, not us!

 

 

[Gauracandra]

Just wanted to mention that yesterday I was loaned the 2 tapes made by Kulashekar. They are really quite good. Its obvious they have been influenced by the Beatles and the whole 60s sound. Still they did add their own mix to it all. There are a few tracks that combine tabla and sitar with electric guitars and drums. The songs themselves have a spiritual message, and a few are purely modern interpretations of Indian songs (Govinda, Radhe Radhe, and one other). Anyways, if you get a chance check them out.

 

Gauracandra

[Bhaktavasya]

Seeing as the original topic is about modern bhajans, songs written and sung by 'highly spiritually advanced persons', can anyone come up with the lyrics to 'masters of war' and 'with God on our side' by Bob Dylan. It seems appropriate to what the discussion had denigrated to.

(hey BB, it's a chakra and not a gun that Vishnu resorts to when all else fails, as did Mahaprabhu that one recorded time, until Nityananda reminded him of why They came here.)

Perhaps Jijaji the dee-jay could unearth these classics.

 

[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 08-04-2001).]

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Thank you and you are most welcome.

 

--------

TEN GOOD THINGS ABOUT GUNS:

 

10. They won the west.

9. They helped win freedom for slaves

8. They won the Gulf War in record time.

7. They won WW1

6. They won WW2

5. They win wars period!

4. Police use them for protection.

3. They are used for self-defence to protect homes.

2. They won your rights for freedom of speech to post stupid liberal commericals

1. We got them, and you don't! When your utopia goes to hell, your the ones that'll be killed, not us!

 

There, but for the Grace of `Guns`, go I...or, maybe, God is `guns`...???

 

 

[Guest guest]

God, guns & ghee, make Amerika great.

 

-------

<h3>With God on Our Side</h3>

by Bob Dylan

 

 

Oh my name it is nothin'

My age it means less

The country I come from

Is called the Midwest

I's taught and brought up there

The laws to abide

And that land that I live in

Has God on its side.

 

Oh the history books tell it

They tell it so well

The cavalries charged

The Indians fell

The cavalries charged

The Indians died

Oh the country was young

With God on its side.

 

Oh the Spanish-American

War had its day

And the Civil War too

Was soon laid away

And the names of the heroes

I's made to memorize

With guns in their hands

And God on their side.

 

Oh the First World War, boys

It closed out its fate

The reason for fighting

I never got straight

But I learned to accept it

Accept it with pride

For you don't count the dead

When God's on your side.

 

When the Second World War

Came to an end

We forgave the Germans

And we were friends

Though they murdered six million

In the ovens they fried

The Germans now too

Have God on their side.

 

I've learned to hate Russians

All through my whole life

If another war starts

It's them we must fight

To hate them and fear them

To run and to hide

And accept it all bravely

With God on my side.

 

But now we got weapons

Of the chemical dust

If fire them we're forced to

Then fire them we must

One push of the button

And a shot the world wide

And you never ask questions

When God's on your side.

 

In a many dark hour

I've been thinkin' about this

That Jesus Christ

Was betrayed by a kiss

But I can't think for you

You'll have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot

Had God on his side.

 

So now as I'm leavin'

I'm weary as Hell

The confusion I'm feelin'

Ain't no tongue can tell

The words fill my head

And fall to the floor

If God's on our side

He'll stop the next war.

 

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

There, but for the Grace of `Guns`, go I...or, maybe, God is `guns`...???

 

`Amazing guns, how sweet the sound, that strafed a wretch like thee...`

 

[Bhaktavasya]

As usual,RA/BB, you don't get it. What Dylan is saying is that everyone who fights a war thinks that God is one his/her side. This is hardly a glorification of war and violence. As the last line says, "If God's on our side, he'll stop the next war."

 

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

God, guns & ghee, make Amerika great.

 

-------

<h3>With God on Our Side</h3>

by Bob Dylan

 

 

Oh my name it is nothin'

My age it means less

The country I come from

Is called the Midwest

I's taught and brought up there

The laws to abide

And that land that I live in

Has God on its side.

 

Oh the history books tell it

They tell it so well

The cavalries charged

The Indians fell

The cavalries charged

The Indians died

Oh the country was young

With God on its side.

 

Oh the Spanish-American

War had its day

And the Civil War too

Was soon laid away

And the names of the heroes

I's made to memorize

With guns in their hands

And God on their side.

 

Oh the First World War, boys

It closed out its fate

The reason for fighting

I never got straight

But I learned to accept it

Accept it with pride

For you don't count the dead

When God's on your side.

 

When the Second World War

Came to an end

We forgave the Germans

And we were friends

Though they murdered six million

In the ovens they fried

The Germans now too

Have God on their side.

 

I've learned to hate Russians

All through my whole life

If another war starts

It's them we must fight

To hate them and fear them

To run and to hide

And accept it all bravely

With God on my side.

 

But now we got weapons

Of the chemical dust

If fire them we're forced to

Then fire them we must

One push of the button

And a shot the world wide

And you never ask questions

When God's on your side.

 

In a many dark hour

I've been thinkin' about this

That Jesus Christ

Was betrayed by a kiss

But I can't think for you

You'll have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot

Had God on his side.

 

So now as I'm leavin'

I'm weary as Hell

The confusion I'm feelin'

Ain't no tongue can tell

The words fill my head

And fall to the floor

If God's on our side

He'll stop the next war.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Gee, BV, maybe He stops the war by us winning it. Go back to your bong.

 

I thought you'd be watching the Moody Blues concert on PBS. Go figure.