Modern Bhajans???

[suryaz]

 

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

God, guns & ghee, make Amerika great.

 

-------

<h3>With God on Our Side</h3>

by Bob Dylan

 

RandOM aXiS

 

Is God not on the "Side" of us all?

Is God's grace not for all?

 

We as individuals are evidently intent on organising our spiritual direction (free will). The idea that one can do so only by virtue of the unadulterated surrender is psychologically the hardest lesson for us all to digest. But until it has been digested, too many of us will retain the destructive view that "we", ie those of us who agree with "us" are somehow "special". As a consequence, we can do or say what we like to those who differ from "us", and not worry too much about the consequences of, and/or even the virtue of, what we are saying.

 

Technically, of course this is true. We are sufficiently evolved to be able to make decisions about what we believe and/or imagine to be true. We even remember events and experience and make decision about what we imagine of them and/or believe justifiable of them. Yes! Our imaginations are amazing.

 

The question is, have we evolved enough to make intelligent decisions (especially concerning beliefs, memories, experiences we imagine or believe are true to/of another person and their relationships with others)?

 

This, of course, brings into question:

 

What of our 'intelligent' decisions?

 

I agree with Bhaktvasya "In the eyes of God no-one is worthless, all are worthy of receiving Grace." And therefore we should aspire to direct our intelligence, if not our imagination in that way.

 

And randOM aXiS do you think it is becoming to speak of Jagat in that way?

 

And Jagat, "laughable" Humm that choice in language also waves a red flag.

 

Is God not on the "Side" of us all?

Is God's grace not for all?

 

Suryaz

 

[amanpeter]

So much easier to KILL our enemies than LOVE them. Killing them with love, though, well that's something else entirely, isn't it? Beads or bullets, bhajans or bombs--what'll it be, BB?

[Bhaktavasya]

Justin Heyward looks great in a sarong, and Knights in White Satin doesn't mean soldiers in sheets.

 

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Gee, BV, maybe He stops the war by us winning it. Go back to your bong.

 

I thought you'd be watching the Moody Blues concert on PBS. Go figure.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

So much easier to KILL our enemies than LOVE them. Killing them with love, though, well that's something else entirely, isn't it? Beads or bullets, bhajans or bombs--what'll it be, BB?

What do you think?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Justin Heyward looks great in a sarong, and Knights in White Satin doesn't mean soldiers in sheets.

 

Ya mean they ain't talking 'bout the KKK?

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

What do you think?

Chant softly and carry a big stick?

[Guest guest]

LOL!

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Chant softly and carry a big stick?

Reminds me of japa walks in Vrindavan watching out for monkey ambushes!

[Jagat]

I have held off saying anything more on this thread because I feel it difficult to say anything brief that would be of any value in this discussion. BB has presented so many fallacies in such a short space, that I don't really want to waste my time answering to them all.

 

Though I don't agree with the example he gave, Gaurachandra's brief statement that right and left are not clear designations, but in effect constantly moving goalposts, is perfectly correct. This was my original point: Bhutabhavana Prabhu was using a Biblical passage to prove that "God" supports his modern American right wing agenda. This would indeed be laughable, Suryaz, if it were not so insidious.

 

Bhutabhavana's preoccupations with the "artha-shastra" rather than "paramartha-shastra" are a key to explaining his point of view. His zealousness for mundane American nationalism and Bush-bhakti seem rather out of place on forums dedicated to spiritual matters. We are used to that, but it seems to me that at the very least Krishna consciousness would have given him a small sense of perspective about such things.

 

Thus, he can lead off his ten things that are good about guns with a little cheer for American imperialism, once again proving my point about the arrogant self-righteousness of the "successful."

 

I see that BB has teamed up with Puru Prabhu. Well, though they are two very different individuals, they do indeed seem to be birds of a feather.

 

Haribol,

 

Jagat

 

 

[Jagat]

I want to add another thing before I let this thread drop. Bhutabhavanaji is no doubt a Kshatriya in spirit and quality. His opinions are quite in line with that spirit; they have their place and I have no fundamental objection to his holding them.

 

However, just as the founders of the American nation wisely separated religion from the state, they also wisely placed the military under civilian control. They were foresighted enough to recognize that opinions like those of BB, if given free reign, do not lead to more freedom, but less.

 

[Guest guest]

<font size="4">"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the

hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776. </font>

[Guest guest]

Jagat suffers from over-objectivity. And suffering he certainly is because he thinks he must resolve these unresolvable issues in his mind.

 

But he never will.

 

Here is some Patrick Henry for you:

 

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the house. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the house is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at the truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.</P>

 

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the numbers of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.</P>

 

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received?</P>

 

Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlement assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation.</P>

 

There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free--if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us! They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength but irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late

to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.</P>

 

It is in vain, sir, to extentuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace--but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!</P>

 

March 23, 1775

[Bhaktavasya]

My last comment to BB on the subject of America going to war with the rest of the world (which again has nothing to do with the thread topic);

 

The quote by American Patrick Henry and the date it was spoken says it all:

 

"Have we anything new to offer on the subject? Nothing." March 23, 1775

 

 

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Jagat suffers from over-objectivity. And suffering he certainly is because he thinks he must resolve these unresolvable issues in his mind.

 

But he never will.

 

Here is some Patrick Henry for you:

 

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the house. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the house is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at the truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.</P>

 

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the numbers of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.</P>

 

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received?</P>

 

Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlement assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation.</P>

 

There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free--if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us! They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength but irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late

to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.</P>

 

It is in vain, sir, to extentuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace--but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!</P>

 

March 23, 1775

 

[amanpeter]

We may continue to quote great souls ad infinitum, yet we remain bereft of their vision and few, if any of us, are even made of the same fiber. Though followers may think themselves leaders, they obviously are not. "Many are called, but few are chosen..."

 

Preaching others' words certainly requires far less from us than actually helping, encouraging, and supporting one another in meaningful and practical ways. Love philosophy ad nauseum vs. Love reality in absentium!

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

We may continue to quote great souls ad infinitum, yet we remain bereft of their vision and few, if any of us, are even made of the same fiber. Though followers may think themselves leaders, they obviously are not. "Many are called, but few are chosen..."

 

Preaching others' words certainly requires far less from us than actually helping, encouraging, and supporting one another in meaningful and practical ways. Love philosophy ad nauseum vs. Love reality in absentium!

Okay amanpeter. You sure talk the talk, but do you walk the walk? What have you done besides sit a a keyboard and critisize others? Methinks you are an armchair quaterback.

 

While I have not done much for my guru maharaja, I have at least done a minute amount of service: including smuggle Srila Prabhupada's transcendental books into the former Soviet Union, opening a Govinda's restaurant and distributing prasadam, serving with and donating thousands of dollars to Food For Life, publishing one of the first temple web pages when the net was i its infancy.

 

What are your accomplishments?

[suryaz]

"So back to the subject at hand on my first response: didn't Kieth Ham try modernising the kirtans and bhajans with English and Xtion stuff? Yes, did."

 

I guess he did in a way. But so also did Siddha. Siddha in 1974-5 produced an audiotape that contained chanting, English lyrics and Indian bhajans.

 

The English lyrics ranged from "I want to Open my heart to all" to a love song about Radha and Krishna under a willow tree. It was a big issue in Australia/New Zealand zone. As I remember it, there was much controversy as to whether there were "Willow" trees in Vrindavan.

 

 

Further as Talasiga pointed out "In the early days in Melbourne there was singing with just bongos, guitars and Upendra with his violin. Kirtans were ecstatic."

 

Certainly guitars and tambourines, as with mrdangas and kartals were used in kirtan (both in the temple and on Hari-nam) in Australian up until 1975. Then Madhudvisa changed the focus and emphasised more "Vedic" musical instruments for temple programs, although occasionally guitars were used for Hari-nam. In the1980-90’s however, travelling ‘sankirtan’ bus-parties headed by Ramai Swami were equipped with electric guitars and all the typical Jazz, Rock and modern instruments. Again chanting, English lyrics and Indian bhajans were engaged.

 

Suryaz

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 08-05-2001).]

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Okay amanpeter. You sure talk the talk, but do you walk the walk? What have you done besides sit a a keyboard and critisize others? Methinks you are an armchair quaterback.

 

While I have not done much for my guru maharaja, I have at least done a minute amount of service: including smuggle Srila Prabhupada's transcendental books into the former Soviet Union, opening a Govinda's restaurant and distributing prasadam, serving with and donating thousands of dollars to Food For Life, publishing one of the first temple web pages when the net was i its infancy.

 

What are your accomplishments?

Your obviously worthwhile service still does not give you the right to belittle or demean others, no matter how pathetic their little lives might appear to you. I'm sure many could find your personal experiences inspiring and I for one would greatly appreciate your sharing them here. I'm equally certain that, as a devotee, you give all glories to God and guru, not guns and politics.

 

My own wretched history and present fallen useless position has already been sufficiently exposed to ridicule on both VNN and Dharma-mela forums, so I see no need to debase myself any further here. Then again, I am not a devotee nor am I a disciple of any particular guru and do not expect to become one in this lifetime. I do feel strongly, however, that how those who are treat each other is extremely significant, both for themselves and Lord Caitanya's movement as a whole. Building one's self-esteem at the expense of others' is definitely not the way to go, in my humble opinion. If there were a little more empathy and understanding between the devotees of all camps, they might reveal their own stories and accomplishments to the benefit of all. Sorry for taking this thread off topic, prabhus. JAI SRI RADHE!

[suryaz]

BB, a rough diamond no doubt, but you just cannot help yourself.

 

Why must everything be a red flag?

 

Now my good man, try opening your "heart to all and let the warmth" of Krsna's "love shine in" (c/f Siddha 1974/5).

 

Search for that Zone unknown to many (I think they call it Chintamani-dham or something. Brahma Samhita: Ch 5, V 56 talks about it).

 

Anyway it is the zone where every step is a dance and every word a song – yes, BB - far removed from: anger, blood, fighting and the rest of that.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 08-06-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

My last comment to BB on the subject of America going to war with the rest of the world (which again has nothing to do with the thread topic).....

 

Is that a promise? I doubt it.

 

Jagat was the one who changed the subject of this thread because he was offended by my sigfile.

 

So back to the subject at hand on my first response: didn't Kieth Ham try modernising the kirtans and bhajans with English and Xtion stuff? Yes, did. And look at the results. He didn't lose his head like your boyfriend, but the results are similar: infamy for KC in Amerika.

 

Why don't you just role in the choir, church organ and orchestra and have them play My Sweet Lord, violins and all for

evening arotik? Give me a break.

 

Kieth Ham's English prayer program in NYC is the strangest mixture of speculation, pseudo-chrisitanity style format, and interfaith, sounds to me like

not enough faith in the purva acaryas.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Now, back to the subject at hand. Devotees produced two western-styled KC albums 1978.

 

Mongolananda (Michael Cassidy) produced Change of Heart from the LA community and Gurudas (Jorge O. Barerro [JOB Orchestra]) produced Open the Doors to your Heart from NYC.

 

Mongolananda's album was released first, with a folksy/mellow mood, and he showed up at the NYC Ratha-yatra that year as Tarun Krsna was finishing up the album cover for JOB's album. JOB was a disco genre, but the album cover was more far out.

 

I don't remember how successful either was, I didn't stick around long after that. Maybe Tarun can remember. I recall watching JOB Orchestra record from Music Farm Studios, in the same building as Club 54.

[Jagat]

Prahlad Das also did several albums in both French and English, including I believe a version of Ramayan that was sold by devotees on the streets. This would be in the Jayatirtha days. Maybe Bhaktavasya Deviji remembers that one. I forget the name of the French album, "Le petit garçon bleu" or something like that. It was also quite popularly received.

 

Now, of course, Prahlad Dasji is eking out a living as a new age musician, chanting primarily Gaudiya Vaishnava mantras along with mantras from other religious traditions.

 

During the post-Prabhupada period in Montreal, Nandikeshwar invited a number of francophone musicians to establish themselves here with great positive preaching effect. They were writing much original material, though not much of it was recorded. I believe that Mahavirya has written a number of songs in French on Krishna conscious themes, but I don't know what he has done with them.

 

There were over a hundred devotees living at the temple at that time. Gopal Krishna, I believe, put a stop to all that nonsense. There are about 6-8 devotees at any one time here these days.

 

Wasn't there also a big Italian music star who became a devotee and wrote songs?

 

The point is, though, that none of this material really pervaded the consciousness of the movement or became popular vehicles for spreading Krishna consciousness. I don't necessarily mean during mangal arati or formal temple activities, but certainly in informal singalong sessions, or whatever.

 

Think of the traditional, pre-Gaudiya Math, situation in India.

 

Haribol,

 

Jagat

[atma]

The Italian devotee was Krsna Chaitanya Das. He was very famous before he became a devotee and wrote lots of songs about Krishna.Unfortunately he and his family blooped after Bhagavan left.

 

Yesterday during the beautiful Ratha Yatra here in LA, they had lots of devotees singing. Govinda sang rap, Mangalanda was very melodious and Goravani and the gurukulis enlivened everybody with their songs in the main stage.

I have to say that the best kirtan during the parade was in front of Subhadra Devi and Srila Prabhupada with the gurukulis leading.

We had a very nice festival and I'm glad that I was here to get the mercy.

[Jagat]

What we need is some kind of an archive to collect all this material. We can even include Mahaksha's stuff. It'll need a special language category, though.

 

Anybody got a head start on it?

 

 

 

[Jagat]

BTW, Atma Deviji, I am glad to see you are out of your funk and finding pleasure in sadhusanga again, or finding sadhus to have sanga with. Maybe it's your irrepressible sense of humor. We've been enjoying your joke contributions.

 

Jagat

[atma]

Originally posted by Jagat:

BTW, Atma Deviji, I am glad to see you are out of your funk and finding pleasure in sadhusanga again, or finding sadhus to have sanga with. Maybe it's your irrepressible sense of humor. We've been enjoying your joke contributions.

 

Jagat

It is all Krsna's mercy and as I said before that chapter in my life is closed. It is not only a brand new day it is a brand new life.

I have lots of jokes but somehow I can't send them because is some error in this computer with the cutting and pasting thing and I'm too lazy to type them. I think that some of them will be too much for BB and we don't want to upset him.