SB class, relationships,etc.

[atma]

For the last 10 days in the temple here, the devotees had been reading from Chaitanya Charitamrita about the pastimes of Sri Mahaprabhu in Puri and Ratha Yatra. Yesterday, a visiting sannyasi read a little bit and then started his class about how abominable sex life is and he was very graphic about it giving examples from animals and other things. I was really upset because I knew that one of my daughters was listening to the class. Normally I won't object to this kind of preaching if it was a class for brahmacharis but not for women and children present.

The point that I want to make here and I hope that I won't be misunderstood is that, very few people can be celibate, most of the population are or will get married. If we stress all the negative aspects of sex life it will be very difficult for a couple to be successful in their marriage. Because I have daughters I'm concerned about their marriage. Hopefully they'll get married to devotees and even if they do so what are the chances that their husbands will be saints and have sex only for procreation? Now if from a tender age, in the Srimad Bhagavatam class, the kids are hearing about how abominable sex life is, what is going to happen when they discover that they have desires or that their husbands want sex more than only for procreation?

It is going to be hell for both of them.

 

This morning I met a lady who has been married for 25 years and has been very faithful to her husband. She was telling me that he wants to take another wife, he already proposed to another woman, because he wants babies(read sex). No wonder that the man wants somebody else because for many years nothing is happening with the wife since she is strict in her vows. But this marriage is going down the drain.

 

During lunch a gurukuli from Mayapur told me that a famous senior devotee just informed his family that he took another woman because she needs shelter (read sex again). The wife and kids (like 6 of them) are really upset with him but they are tolerating because well, what to do? And these guys are in their 50s.

 

Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly and I want to make it very clear that I'm not propagating free sex or something like that. I believe in monogamous relationships and sex within the marriage but it is really difficult to control the senses even within the couples and if the women think that it is a terrible sin for their husbands to want sex and they don't allow it then the men will go somewhere else for it.

 

I know shastra and what the sadhus and gurus say about it but we have to be practical here and see why most of the marriages fail in our society.

 

I gave the example of this 2 guys because I just heard about them but sometimes it is the other way around.

 

Any comments?

 

 

 

[Gauracandra]

I think there is actually a larger issue that needs to be addressed in your posting. Let me preface my comments by saying that I am in no way spiritually advanced, and my remarks are not directed at the sannyasi you are referring to. However, it seems to me that there are certain individuals who fundamentally do not believe in a Varnashram system. Varnashram means there are different levels of individuals with different functions. This is broken down by occupation, and by levels of renunciation. There are those who think that everyone is supposed to be a sannyasi RIGHT NOW. That was not Srila Prabhupada’s vision at all. I believe he wanted a householder led movement.

 

This was really brought to my attention when a few months back one website was having a debate on whether or not devotee children should play sports. I just shook my head and couldn’t believe the utter stupidity of the side that said “Sports is Maya, no sports”. There are some people who just don’t know how society functions and what society means. They like to search for a few quotes here and there, taken out of context, and ascribe them to all others for all time. I believe most often this is done out of spiritual immaturity and a desire to control others. They have “their” way of doing things and like to control others into doing things “their” way.

 

Now there is a difference between this immature approach and setting a standard by which we may objectively measure our own spiritual progress. I’m reminded of something I read once about Swami Sivananda. One day one of his disciples heard him instructing his disciples how women were simply bags of bones, blood, muscle, urine, bile etc…. the disciple became disturbed. Afterwards, he met privately with his guru. He asked him humbly “You said so many things about how women are simply bags of bones etc…. but don’t the scriptures say that we should love and honor our mothers. I don’t understand how you could say such things.” Swami Sivananda told him that yes, one should always honor the mother and love and respect her, still for the purpose of breaking the disciple’s attachment for worldly pleasures sometimes he needs to speak very strongly, to break that attraction. The problem comes, in my opinion, when spiritually immature individuals take such instances and decide they will preach publicly like this. The purpose is for a guru to instruct a disciple, to break that disciple’s hold on the temporary and illusory. But it is also important to understand that there are many people of different levels of advancement. An intelligent preacher understands this and tailors his message to the audience (keeping the essence), understanding to whom he is speaking, and the need to get across his point. Very often those who don’t REALLY know the philosophy (again not that I do) take a blunt instrument to the cancer of maya, rather than a surgeon’s scalpel. In the process they may do damage to the patient (perhaps driving them away from the spiritual path). The solution? we need more highly trained surgeons.

 

Gauracandra

 

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 08-02-2001).]

[Bhaktavasya]

While loathe to bring up the 'M' word, isn't core Mayavad way of thinking that everything is Maya; sex is maya, family life is maya, the entire world is maya or illusion. On the other hand, a personalist sees everything as an extension of God's energy and this world not as false, but as real although temporary. Love is the transforming element. Sex without love and respect is mundane and empty, even if you're just doing it for reasons of procreation.

It is an amazing phenomenon, that after almost 40 years of glaring examples during iskcon rocky renunciates history, there are sannyasis still obsessed over the evils of sex life. I say "if it's not your ashram, butt out of it".

 

[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 08-03-2001).]

[JRdd]

Interesting discussion here, hope it continues rather than fades. I am glad Atma brought up the point, and appreciate Gaurachandra's points expecially about the blunt instrument which may harm as opposed to a delicately precise surgical instrument, and then the point made by BV about Mayavadism, and unfortunately, though the "preachers" should be qualified to speak across the whole section of ashrams, seems like some just can't. I sat through too many classes where I was embarrased due to the presence of guests or children, where the topics seemed anally centered, so much talk of stool and also sex that one really wondered just what the speaker was hanging on to. Once I walked out of a sannyasi's class, only to be met in the hallway by a much older and well-respected Indian-bodied sannyasi, fatherly type, who had also left the class, who shook his head at me and clicked his tongue and said something to the effect that it was a shame the way some spoke about women. But the point he made was much deeper, in its reference to the effect of such preaching on our society. And this type of talk was rampant.

Personally I would hate it if my daughter heard lectures like that. I am sure it would drive her away Krsna consciousness, not to it. Better to just focus on the unlimited positive points and stories in our divine legacy.

ys, Jayaradhe

PS Hope youre enjoying all those devotees, Atma. Wish I was there. Maybe you can tell us aobut the Gurukuli Balaram play?

[Jagat]

Notice that this conversation is mostly being taken up by "Mayadevis." I am 100% with Bhaktavasya on this one.

 

Jagat

[Audarya lila]

I find this to be a very interesting topic. Thank you Atma for bringing it up. I am married with two children and don't plan on having any more children. My wife and I love and respect each other very much and our sexual relations have always been more about expressing that love than satisfying our senses. We both realize that the ideal is to be totally devoted and surrendered and have every action we take be a total commitment to serving God, but we also realize who we are and where we are along the spiritual path and we are trying together to make tangible progress.

 

I have always felt that it was one of the symptoms of a disfunctional spiritual society that alienates most of it's members by constantly hammering on them and telling them what maya they are in and how useless they are. It, in my opinion, is one of the reasons for the overwhelming feeling of impersonal and non-caring relationships that permeate Iskcon. I think that the goal and the ideal should always be understood and strived for, but we should also encourage one another and be thankful for where we are and what progress we have made. Iskcon would be a lot larger and filled with more psychologically sound individuals if honesty and sincerity replaced show bottle renunciation and loud talk that isn't matched by action.

 

What happened in Iskcon is that not only was sex a dirty word, but any relation with the opposite sex was maya and looked down upon. This led to viewing others as objects of disdain rather than seeing the beauty of the heart of all sincere devotees. Why is it that all the family relations we read about in Krsna lila and Guara lila relect what we really feel human and family relations should be all about yet we are preached to by some that 'it is all maya'. We are personalists and we should learn to love and care about each other. We must learn to express our emotions and embrace them as given by Krsna and see them as they relate to other servants of Krsna. We have given up material life and a pursuit of happiness through 'only sense pleasure and family relations'. We have put Krsna in the center and now we should learn that what that means is we truly love each other in that relationship.

 

Sridhara Maharaja has said that Krsna consciousness means proper adjustment, that's all. So we have to readjust and realize that treating people poorly and seeing them as objects of maya is an incorrect adjustment and is not Krsna conscious. One time when Sridhara Maharaja was giving sanyasa to one devotee he told him, 'So, you are prepared to deal with the ladies?' The devotee and many others in the assembly were taken by suprise - they were thinking just the opposite - now he doesn't have to 'deal with the ladies'. But Sridhara Maharaja was giving Krsna consciousness and he saw what the proper adjustment was. We have to be prepared to see everything and everyone in relation to Krsna and see the harmony in the environment. He wasn't giving a danda and expecting his disciple to function as a false renunciate - he wanted him to be Krsna conscious and realize his duty to serve all others.

 

Besides all of this I think that the shock value of these type of graphic statements about sex and it's abominable nature have passed their usefulness and it is time that devotees mature and seek a more balanced approach to preaching. We have to learn from history and history tells us that the expectation that devotees will be able to follow the edict of sex only for procreation is unrealistic for all but a few. So let's be honest and quit trying to force people into roles they don't fit and trying to make them feel bad because of it. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was prepared to serve meat to his vistitors in order to get them to hear about Krsna and take up the path of bhakti. Shocking isn't it? He was practical and he wanted to spread Krsna consiciousness and he was prepared to do it at all costs.

 

The negative impetus only works for so long. Better to encourage devotees and those who would practice devotion to take it up practically and honestly and progress steadily.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

While loathe to bring up the 'M' word, isn't core Mayavad way of thinking that everything is Maya; sex is maya, family life is maya, the entire world is maya or illusion. On the other hand, a personalist sees everything as an extension of God's energy and this world not as false, but as real although temporary. Love is the transforming element. Sex without love and respect is mundane and empty, even if you're just doing it for reasons of procreation.

It is an amazing phenomenon, that after almost 40 years of glaring examples during iskcon rocky renunciates history, there are sannyasis still obsessed over the evils of sex life. I say "if it's not your ashram, butt out of it".

 

 

Yes you have taken the point right out of my mouth and thus saved this forum from another smug Talasiga haiku.

Thank you Bhaktavasya.

Brava !

Down with Mayavada !

 

 

[atma]

JRdd said:

PS Hope youre enjoying all those devotees, Atma. Wish I was there. Maybe you can tell us about the Gurukuli Balaram play?

 

 

Unfortunately I couldn't see it. I had to go to work. Everybody told me that was really good. It was about Maha Bharata..

Maddy, the main kuli for the plays got kind of upset with me because I didn't see it. I saw his work in Vrindavan and Mayapur and he is really good. He is here studying drama and working at the same time. That day was Lord Balarama appearance's day and the gurukulis lead all the kirtans. For Mangala Aratik, Vishvambhar (Ananga Manjari's song) lead really nicely. A girl sang for Tulasi Aratik. Amarendra's son gave morning class.

During the morning while we were making garlands for decorating the carts, a girl not more than 20 years old sang for the noon aratik and her kirtan was pure nectar. So full of life. Reminded me Vrindavan.

 

I saw many of the kids that I knew from India when they were little and I'm happy that I got their association. Many of them went through rough times but they are still in KC. The little girls that I knew are already married and having babies and doing really great.

 

BTW Jayaradhe, Mahamaya said that she is sorry that she couldn't said bye to you.

 

Another thing that I remember now is that while we were making garlands a few people showed up to help. I was amazed how diverse in every sense we were. There was this old Prabhupada's disciple talking non-stop about the years in New York and the Road Show. A gurukuli boy from NY (rittvic) with her girl friend (she is suing ISKCON). Two indian ladies talking about Delhi. A greek lady trying to finish everything in time. Another boy from Alachua quiet and sweet. Somehow we were all together doing service for the Lord.

[JRdd]

Thanks for the nectar, loved reading every bit of it. I too felt the diversity and yet such oneness while decorating Subhadra's cart, and was really struck with the joint devotional mood I remember from the old days, now humble and happy everyone was to be serving, and with such a spirit of cooperation and helpfulness. Humble delight being my main impression of it all. I felt very fortunate to be mingling with such heartful devotees, young and old alike, with bodies of various genders and colors.

 

Mahamaya was great to see but I was too busy eating to miss her goodbye. I need all the prasad I can get. Now, with belly full, I do miss her though. When I first saw her at Rathayatra I thought she was a very young girl who resembled Mahamaya. She gave a talk that night on the old days of the Road Show, and memories of Srila Prabhupada, and her book Srila Prabhupada Is coming is really nectarean, I recommend anyone to get hold of it.

 

The gurukulis! Most impressive! My high point in that area was meeting Raghunath who I remember from when he was just a boy, don't know why I expected him to still be a boy and he took me by surprise. Leading kirtans with great bearing and confidence, speaking strongly about the principles of ROOPA (Responsibility of One's Products & Actions), the economics of love and hate--anyone who wants a copy of his newsletter write me at theopenheart@--and he is coming out with a book on it. He emphasizes the contributions of Mom (and his own mother is a stalwart and wonderful devotee), with a section about those who do good deeds such as parents, teachers and priests are allowed to share in the long term reqrds of their economic contributions, explained further in "Family Franchise". The mother works for the equivalent of $507,000 annually at standard professional rates, and does this not for money but for love.

Wish more could respect mother than see her as Mayadevi, and talk about her body. (Heh heh, sorry about that last downer note, but had to tie it in to the theme of this thread). Back to the high stuff, Raghunath represents a sector of the gurukulis who are ardent followers of Srila Prabhupada and who are pitching in to the mix with great enthusiasm and energy, and it's very encouraging. He told me to get down to see that play you also missed, Atma, as he reckoned it was probably the best play in the world, ever shown. Hope someone filmed it, does anyone know?

 

ys, JR