To Satyaraja Dasa [Liberation according to Vallabha]

[talasiga]

 

Vallabha's "Shoodh (pure)" Advaita is really the classical Advaita of Shankara/Gaudapad minus the later "advaita" accretions such as Prakashananda's drishtishisti vaad, and couched in the theistic terminology of Ramanuja's Vishishta Advaita.

 

All of which please see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 08-07-2001).]

[shvu]

Liberation according to Shankara [in brief] is realizing identity with Brahman, which will happen when ignorance is removed after which there is no more duality. This identity was always true, but was covered due to ignorance. Thus mukti is not gaining anything anew. I have the sutras with Shankara's commentary and will see what he has to say on 4.4.4-15.

 

Can you explain Liberation according to Vallabha? Since his teaching is also a form of Advaita, I am curious to know how it differ's from Shankara's.

 

Thanx

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 08-07-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

In the system of suddha-advaita Vedanta, otherwise known as Brahma-vada, the one, secondless, Ultimate Reality, is the only category . Every other thing has proceeded from it at the time of creation, is non-different from it during creation, and merges into it at the time of dissolution.

 

Animate souls and the inanimate objects are respectively its parts and modifications. The animate souls are its parts because they retain to some extent the essential quantities thereof, namely, consciousness and joy. The inanimate objects are its modifications, because the above said qualities are absent therein.

 

"God" is nothing but a convenient theological term for this Ultimate reality. In the Vedic Scriptures, it is called "Brahma" because it is greater than its parts, the animate souls and its modifications, the inanimate objects. It is also called "Paramatama", because it pervades them all.

 

So, there is no real modification in the stage of mukti. The mukta attains sayujiya, ie, he actually remains in a state of non-separation from Hari. (Vedanta 4.4..4). But this sayujiya is in fact manifested even in the material condition, as nothing is different than Hari. Therefore jiva is always merged in Hari at any condition. Vallabha does not consider mayc universe as a non-reality, or as something different than Hari at any stage.

 

Vallabha has followed Badarayana explanations literally concerning mukta's options: he may have a body or not, and he may have several different bodies. Muktas are satya-sankalpa, their will is always prevalent. He can creates different worlds to reciprocate with Hari with these bodies or not. His creations, however, are limited, as he cannot create a whole universe, only localized places such Goloka and other Vaikunthas into the samvyoma or even into de material world.

 

Even Baladeva could not transgress the meaning these sutras (4.4.4-15) due their characteristic of been too much clear and direct. He had to admit sayujiya mukti, something that all Gaudiyas had rejected, including his own guru, Visvanatha.

 

According to Sankara mukti is to realize the identity with Brahman, which will happen when ignorance is removed after which there is no more duality. Sankara's thesis is that this Ultimate Reality has to be ascertained with the help of the scriptures alone. Vallabha stress that beside the help of scripture, Hari's Grace is always preponderant, as one may be versed in all Vedas and in spite of this he may not attain brahmavit without Hari's Grace (Pushti).

 

[shvu]

 

Got it,

 

Thanx

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Sankara's thesis is that this Ultimate Reality has to be ascertained with the help of the scriptures alone.

This assertion needs to be reviewed in the light of Shankaracharya's own statement in his Maandookya Kaarikaa commentary 4:73 which please see.

 

 

[shvu]

 

Here is the kArika from the alAtashAnti prakarana [translation by nikhilananda]

 

yo asti kalpitasanvrityA paramArthena nAstyasau |

paratantrAbhisanvrityA syANAsti paramArthataha ||

 

That which exists on the strength of illusory experiences does not really exist. That which is said to exist on the strength of the views supported by the other schools of thought does not really exist. - MK 4.73

 

Shankara's bhAshya on this kArika says [not in full],

 

Scriptures, Guru, teaching, etc are all unreal and have no real existence. It has already been said that duality vanishes when the ultimate reality is known. Again, the objects as explained as existent by other schools of thought, do not verily exist when analyzed from the standpoint of the ultimate reality.

 

Now reviewing SD's statement in the light of this bhAshya, what is the inference and what is the connection?

 

Thanx

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 08-08-2001).]

[talasiga]

so far this little SS lovefest has provided these two references

 

ref 1 - Satyaraja dasa:

Sankara's thesis is that this Ultimate Reality has to be ascertained with the help of the scriptures alone.

 

ref 2 - shvu:

Shankara's bhAshya ..... says [not in full],

"Scriptures, Guru, teaching, etc are all unreal and have no real existence..........."

 

 

Shvu asks, "Now reviewing SD's statement in the light of this bhAshya, what is the inference and what is the connection?"

 

Talasiga says, "Let the spark plug make its own connections".

Nieti nieti

[amanpeter]

Nieti nieti

Nyuck Nyuck...

[Guest guest]

Connection

 

"It has already been said that duality vanishes when the ultimate reality is known.." (MK 4.73)

 

Sankara's thesis is that this Ultimate Reality has to be ascertained with the help of the scriptures alone. (sastrayonitvat).

 

This Ultimate Reality is an Absolute non-dual substance.

 

Inference

 

"Scriptures, Guru, teaching, etc are all unreal and have no real existence..."(MK 4.73)

 

Vallabha does not consider mayc universe as a non-reality, or as something different than Hari at any stage. Hari is an Absolute reality.

 

Sankara makes an inference on a possibility of a non-reality, Vallabha makes an inference on an Absolute reality who should harmonize any kind of 'non-reality.'

 

[talasiga]

Satyaraja "It has already been said that duality vanishes when the ultimate reality is known.." (MK 4.73)

 

talasiga This is Shankara commentary. I think Satyaraja is cryptically suggesting that although Shankara considers scripture illusory its illusory nature dissolves when the Ultimate is reached.

This suggestion may also be applied to Tantra which Satyaraja decries. That is, the illusory nature of Tantra disappears when the Ultimate is reached.

Some even say that "Art is the Lie that reveals the Truth".

On the subject of art and Tantra, I note that one of the great aesthetic scriptures is the Saundarya Lahiri, a Tantric poetic dedication to the Devi. Who wrote it?

SHANKARA.

So much for the so-called ipso facto dichotomy between Vedaanta and Tantra.

 

Satyaraja Sankara's thesis is that this Ultimate Reality has to be ascertained with the help of the scriptures alone.

 

talasiga My reading shows that he said scripture is illusory and serves only as A means to the realisation of Reality.

(there is a significant difference between "a" and "the")

 

Satyaraja This Ultimate Reality is an Absolute non-dual substance.

 

talasiga You are limiting the Absolute to a singular (non-dual) status. This is your problem.

The Absolute is Unlimited. Therefore I can accept the saint who says "It is Absolute in its Singularity" one day and the next day says "It is Absolute in its Multiplicity".

 

Satyaraja Hari is an Absolute reality.

 

talasiga I dont think Vallabha would have said this. He would have said "Hari is THE Absolute Reality". Satyaraja seems to be having a problem with "a" vis a vis "the".

 

references:

Saundarya Lahiri of Shree Shankara Bhagavatpaad

Advaita Ved[aa]nta, A Philosophical Reconstruction Professor Eliot Deutsch, University of Hawaii Press,ISBN 0-8248-0271-3

 

 

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 08-09-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

Talasigaji: I dont think Vallabha would have said this. He would have said "Hari is THE Absolute Reality". Satyaraja seems to be having a problem with "a" vis a vis "the".

 

Satyaraj: I am stating that Hari is the vocative case as well as the locative, ablative, genitive, and all cases. So the article in English may be employed to make these subtle inferences. Thank you for your remark.

 

Please be aware that I am not decrying Tantra. My point is that Tantra is mainly employed to establish religion's affairs, while sruti are employed to establish philosophy's affairs. The Tao, or the equilibrium between both is very salutary to any seeker like me, and as a had a overdose of Tantra for certain now I need some pills of Vedanta to heal my headache.

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

had a overdose of Tantra for certain now I need some pills of Vedanta to heal my headache.

My Dear Doctor Manjari

 

I am referring this Brasilian gentleman for your urgent attention.

He has been taking self prescribed wisdom pills for a self diagnosed headache purportedly of Tantric aetiology.

As you will see from the enclosed faecal analysis the pills remained undigested.

 

He does not tolerate very well the rules and routine approach to treatment practised by many outstanding nurses, and I would recommend hospitalisation ONLY on a strictly self catering basis.

 

Without prejudice to your treatment, may I suggest that he be allowed to continue with his wisdom pills and that you provide him with some appropriate digestive agent for it from your Armentarium.

 

His illness is not contagious and it is not an influenza. However, as he has been the subject of unwarranted ostracization and prejudice on account of it, I have provided him with a Certificate confirming his non-contagious non-influential status.

 

Kind Regards

Dr Quack

[Guest guest]

Dr Quack: I have provided him with a Certificate confirming his non-contagious non-influential status.

 

Doctor Manjari: Your Certificate will be very helpful indeed. Otherwise they would put that patient into an insane asylum. Can you imagine how bizarre someone affected by Tantra and under the effect of some pills of Vedantism could seem to most of people in Brazil?

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Brazil

Shiva SAMBA Shiva SAMBA

Gauri Shankara Jaya Bom BOM

Shiva SAMBA Shiva SAMBA

 

Ahh Brasil ! Samba Brasil !

 

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Actually Vallabhacrya does not admit that all jivas can attain mukti. At least not at a every kalpa. According to his theology a jiva can remain pravahi only till 'Pralaya kala'. When 'Brahman' wants to wind up his lila, He highlights all His three gunas (sat, cit and ananda) in the universe. This results in the whole universe becoming one and merging into the original form of Brahman. All the jivas become pure with no discrimination of a 'pravahi', 'maryada' or 'pushti', or any other kind of jivas can be done. They thus, become 'shuddha' and thus become eligible to take up any form.

 

This happens during 'pralaya kala'. After this, when once again the creation of the universe takes place, the

different kinds of 'jivas' are created. The cycle goes on and on. So you see, ultimately no one can point out that this particular jiva was 'pravahi' before the creation or not. All jivas are similar before creation and after the 'Pralaya'. All the difference lies only in between these two stages. If one is considering the kind of mukti that occurs during the creation season, not all jivas are eligible to attain mukti.