The Third Sex: Gay Vaisnavas

[atma]

I have a question too:

If it is true that Srila Prabhupada did approve of Upendra to settle down with a nice boy, then how is it, that the same Upendra married a woman in the presence of Srila Prabhupada? This just show that Srila Prabhupada never supported gay relationships, rather he always advised them to marry women to satisfy their sex desires in a proper manner.

 

 

[This message has been edited by atma (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by atma:

I have a question too:

If it is true that Srila Prabhupada did approve of Upendra to settle down with a nice boy, then how is it, that the same Upendra married a woman in the presence of Srila Prabhupada? This just show that Srila Prabhupada never supported gay relationships, rather he always advised them to marry women to satisfy their sex desires in a proper manner.

 

 

[This message has been edited by atma (edited 09-03-2001).]

No it is not true that Srila Prabhupada told him to settle down with a "nice boy". That is what these fag revisionists claim, but they cannot prove it with a letter, tape or shastra.

[nine9]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

What is being objected to is the concoction of homosex marriage,not you as a soul.

Maitreya prabhu,

 

Thank you for your kind and very calming comments. I just must ask a small question. You say "homosex marriage"... I wasn't aware I was asking for that. I don't actually like the idea of civic unions, per se. I want to ask you, though, because I must know: do you consider a guru giving his blessing to a relationship to be "marriage"?

 

Please know that I ask this question out of sincere naivety,

 

Your humble servant,

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Srila Prabhupada has warned us that butter brought near fire will melt. With this example he told us that we should avoid intimate association with those we are attracted to otherwise we will fall down.

 

Those who want to have celibate homosexual marriages are going against this simple instruction of Srila Prabhupada's.

 

Why try to keep the butter solid while keeping it next to a fire?

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by nine9:

Surely you are jesting? (I mean about a mother lusting after her child?)

Lust is what binds us to this material body/world/conciousness. It is not simply gross or subtle sex desire, although that may be seen as the root. Spiritual conciousness is not a relative concept such as the three modes of nature. One is either in or out and it begins when identification with the body, and all that entails, CEASES.

 

Unfortunately, many seek out gurus for what they can GET from them, not what they can GIVE. Thus they become misled ever further and increasingly entangled in confusion. The solution lies in realizing the frighteningly desperate situation we are in here and crying out sincerely from our hearts, in complete helplessness, for that Divine Grace which alone can free us from ALL our misconceptions. Then we may be able to actually appreciate His Divine Grace when he appears before us personally.

 

Trouble is, these days there's a whole buffet of `gurus` to choose from, as if it were ever our choice to begin with. Gee, I'm black so I better choose the black guru. No, I'm French so probably the French guru will understand me better. Hey, that one seems kind...but that other one writes such good books...etc. etc.

 

Maybe better just to chant and pray, eh? Meanwhile, it can't hurt to consider oneself the very lowest and try to respect/serve EVERYONE, whether or not we can apparently benefit from them. At least theoretically, we can all realize that each of us is part and parcel of the Supreme, can we not? Peter/valaya

 

 

 

 

[nine9]

Originally posted by jndas:

Srila Prabhupada has warned us that butter brought near fire will melt. With this example he told us that we should avoid intimate association with those we are attracted to otherwise we will fall down.

I really don't understand anymore. Gaudiya Vaishnavas get married...I've seen such celebrations myself. Surely those marriages are motivated out of attraction, even a slight amount? Plus, I will be honest, this relationship is not just motivated out of attraction, it is also motivated out of loneliness (a need for companionship), and a need to live with someone who is like-minded and who, instead of hampering my spiritual pursuits, aids in that.

 

Surely it does not matter if the butter melts...it is still the same substance, just a different form. Now, if it evaporates then you lose subtance, too? Surely we are talking about not taking things to extremes, here? I cannot believe that you are all advocating that all relationships are completely useless. That's just oversimplifying Gaudiya precepts.

 

Your confused servant,

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by nine9:

I really don't understand anymore.

 

 

<h2>You never did!</h2>

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The point is there is sex life according to religious principles.

 

Those who want to live in celebate homosexual relationships risk fall down into sinful activity, as there is no religious manner for them to dovetail their weakness. Why take unnecessary risks?

 

[Maitreya]

Mark what ever you decide to do you will do.The thing is just don't pretend.Be honest with yourself.

 

You are not alone in experiencing material dilemnas.Material life means confusion, lonliness etc.Everyone is going through some version of it.Your mind has some demands that are not dovetailable.Your homosex thing like my desire for promiscuous sex with no responsibility are simply outside the prescribed rules of conduct for executing proper sadhana-bhakti.We are both physicaly celibate and yet plagued still by the minds desires.Tough for us.We have to suffer the mess we made for ourselves.That is just how it goes.So we do what we can to try and move towards Krishna.

 

Many years ago I was maintaining the rules and sadhana pretty well for a while,and then started working and living in Waikiki.I was selling jewelry on the beach and started falling down on a regular basis.I compounded this mistake by trying to pretend I was still keeping up a higher standard then I really was.My friends could sense something was up but I denied it.Women?What women?Not me.I just couldn't admit my failure to myself.

 

Finnaly this one devotee friend looked me in the face and asked me a question.It was this:"Do you want to know the truthWell yes I said, of course"His answer:"Then stop lying".

 

It was a real slap in the face, but the effect was good.Real friends just don't go along with your games, they will help you see past them.

 

You must know homosex is unnatural.I am asking your intelligence and not your feelings.Stop lying to yourself.

 

Any attempt to try and change Prabhupada's teachings on this matter will just be met with resistence.And people should understand that this resistence is not going away, it will only get stronger.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

[talasiga]

Originally posted by jndas:

Those who want to live in celebate homosexual relationships risk fall down into sinful activity, as there is no religious manner for them to dovetail their weakness. Why take unnecessary risks?

1. A NON-SEXUAL loving Friendship between two same gender persons need not have a homosexual base.

 

2. That even such a refined relationship may be "tainted" by Eros at some level, by virtue of its material situation, need not impede its potential for dovetailing with spiritual devotion. This, particularly where such a friendship

 

a) is sanctioned by guidance of a spiritual mentor;

b) arises from the context of a spiritual pursuit;

c) promotes the furtherance of the spiritual pursuit.

 

3. Anyone can fall from anywhere anytime.

It is better to fall in the line of one's native destiny than to be a king on a foreign throne. So, have courage nine9, and remember:

 

One can never fall

lower than His Feet.

Where does perfection begin?

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Bhaktaboy]

All glories to all Vaisnava devotees!

 

Haribol,

As I expected, the discussions on the Third-gender have reached an intensity that does not appear healthy. It is only so useful to force our opinions on others. Unfortunately it appears that words are falling on deaf ears on this network. Many times in devotional life we must recognize our fallibility, and this includes admitting we are wrong or ending a fruitless discussion. I was saying to Mark that it is impossible sometimes to sincerely reflect on the nature and experience of a homosexual person unless we have been very intimately associated with one or have had these emotions ourselves. This does not mean that it is impossible to be sufficiently empathic to relate with the experience of a homosexual without this, but it is more uncommon. I believe what we are finding this to be the case here. My Guru Maharaja related a story to me a month ago of a wonderful pastime between a Godbrother of his and Srila Prabhupada. As this devotee was looking down off a balcony in India he saw a person pleading for alms who was physically disfigured. Although philosophically we understand this to be a the man's proper karma he could not help but feel compassion. At this thought he turned to Srila Prabhupada and said, "Srila Prabhupada, sometimes I feel compassion for these people.", and Srila Prabhupada responded, "Sometimes? Not sometimes...always." We must be understanding and compassionate to others positions. We cannot fling words such as fag or pedophile around casually. Homosexuality is not a defect, but it is the natural position of millions of people in this world. Unless one knows this basic truth inherantly, then maybe she/he should keep their thoughts to themselves. This would be the most cautious position one could take. Because if one's prejudice, hatred and discrimination prove to be unfounded it would be better to have caused minimal harm to other sincere Vaisnavas.

 

In all honesty a person's Guru is not everybody's business. I think that choosing a Guru as well as disclosing who he/she may be is personal. It is clear that this information has been requested from Mark in order to utilize it as propaganda. I think we can all agree that more propaganda is not what we need in the Vaisnava community at this time. If we do not agree with the position of third-gendered Vaisnavas then we should express our opinions and establish ourselves seperately so as to not be bothered by them. This means that we may have to "offer our obeisances from afar" as one devotee once said to me about a friend of mine. However we must recognize and honor their aspiring relationship with our sweet cowherd boy Sri Krsna no matter what we think about their mundane relationships.

 

Please remember that the energy we are utilizing to critisize others, invent conspiracies, and research slokas that degrade the position of another can easily be utilized to advance our own understanding and promote our growth. It seems malicious to spend so much energy in oppressing and offending others when there is so much each of us can work on and learn for ourselves. Some people on this network must believe themselves faultless to be pressuming so much of others. I believe we should harnass our energy and direct it towards the Supreme Lord rather than wasting it on fruitless and hurtful discussions.

 

I am a third-gendered aspiring devotee.....and my Guru Maharaja does know of my position. Who this is should not make a difference to most of you. It is a concern of mine that my Guru Maharaja accept me, not only on this matter, but as a sincere aspirant. There are also many other more significant reasons the Guru should be accepted. If one has any inkling in one's heart to find fault in this reciprocal relationship, then the problem is with that person....not the Guru or disciple.

 

I hope this letter meets everyone well,

Your friend and servant,

Albert

[Dayal_Govinda]

quote: by jndas

 

"They are doing something worse. They are misrepresenting the Vedic teachings and claiming homosexuality is sanctioned in the scriptures and in Vedic culture."

 

Not sanctioned, just that it existed.

 

quote:by jndas

 

"Srila Prabhupada, the real guru,"

 

The real guru? Are you insinuating that Prabhupada is the only guru, all others are false? The only one to take instruction from? This is a ritvik idea, something that has been dealt with time and time again. If you do not mean this then you must accept that other guru's (bone fide of course) may do things differently.

 

quote:by jndas

"Any so-called guru, claiming to follow Srila Prabhupada, who makes such distortions in the teachings is bogus. It only makes me doubt whether or not such a personality may himself be homosexual."

 

Distortions? did prabhupada distort the teachings when he allowed men and women to dance together in kirtan and live in the same temple? No he adjusted that which is non-essential to bhakti to engage everyone according to their propensity.

I also assume you therefore think that I am gay just because I wrote in support of them?

 

 

quote:by jndas

 

"Srila Prabhupada never compromised on spiritual principles. He told his disciples that they must strictly follow four regulative principles - no meat eating, non intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling. What if someone was serious about devotional life but couldn't give up meat eating? Prabhupada would not initiate them. The fact is, if they aren't willing to change their life style to suit the gurus instructions then they are not serious about devotion."

 

If you will kindly re-read my post you will see that I never said that Prabhupada compromised on devotional principles, just that he adjusted the non-essential aspects of devotional life. You must aknowledge that Prabhupada did this. As I said before he allowed men and women to live in the same building and that was unheard of previously.He saw the way the society worked and adjusted accordingly.

 

quote:by jndas

 

"guru sanctioned non-celibate homosexual marriages, and "Prabhupada said it was alright".

 

Where did I say non-celibate? I said that some may not be suited to celibate brahmacari life not that they should enter into a relationship based on sex. I also never said "Prabhupada said it was alright".

 

quote:by jndas

 

"The problem is sinful activities fo not create a conducive atmosphere for Krishna consciousness:"

 

No they don't, but why imply that they are inherently sinful because they are gay?

How many grhasta couples do not engage in any form of sexual activity? very few, that is why they are grhastas. Bhaktisiddhanta taught his disciples that sex is for marriage, only prahupdada stressed the regulation of sex life within marriage.

The idea that because they are gay there are therefore breaking the 'illicit sex' regulation is absurd. refer to my above point.

 

quote:by jndas

 

"I also find it a shame that such people will try to mislead the devotee public through a well-organized program of dis-information [such as occured on chakra]."

 

This is homophobic paranoia

 

DGd

[amanpeter]

In all honesty a person's Guru is not everybody's business. I think that choosing a Guru as well as disclosing who he/she may be is personal. It is clear that this information has been requested from Mark in order to utilize it as propaganda. I think we can all agree that more propaganda is not what we need in the Vaisnava community at this time. If we do not agree with the position of third-gendered Vaisnavas then we should express our opinions and establish ourselves seperately so as to not be bothered by them. This means that we may have to "offer our obeisances from afar" as one devotee once said to me about a friend of mine. However we must recognize and honor their aspiring relationship with our sweet cowherd boy Sri Krsna no matter what we think about their mundane relationships.

 

Please remember that the energy we are utilizing to critisize others, invent conspiracies, and research slokas that degrade the position of another can easily be utilized to advance our own understanding and promote our growth. It seems malicious to spend so much energy in oppressing and offending others when there is so much each of us can work on and learn for ourselves. Some people on this network must believe themselves faultless to be pressuming so much of others. I believe we should harnass our energy and direct it towards the Supreme Lord rather than wasting it on fruitless and hurtful discussions.

 

Agreed 100% and I hope my more positive posts have outweighed the negative ones. As aspiring devotees, self-reflection is an integral part of the process for self-realization. Sometimes harsh words or even actions may be necessary, though I would prefer not to be the one to deliver either. Ultimately, Radha and Krsna are the Supreme Controllers and sometimes their love is perceived as painful. This is Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement and we have all been caught up in it through His Divine Grace. So much has yet to be sorted out, but we have another 9,500 years and many more lifetimes ahead of us, do we not? If it is necessary for someone to walk in another's shoes, that can surely be arranged.

 

The same truths that hurt can also set us free, prabhus. There was a song by a group called The Carrs that said, "It doesn't matter where you've been, as long as it was deep!" While we experience our unique bodies in relation to others, I believe it best to go deep into our heart-of-hearts because that is where the understanding of achintya-bhedabheda-tattva lies and that is the ABSOLUTE truth we are all seeking.

 

Spontaneous emotional expression is important and should not be stifled without due cause, however we are obliged to consider who we are and why we meet here in this Audarya Fellowship so as to remind ourselves that self-discipline is also an integral part of the process for self-realization. Even if we are unable for whatever reason to humble ourselves or admit regrets to each other, both must be done before God and/or Sri Guru. When restraint needs to be applied externally, it reflects badly on this forum, it's participants, devotees in general, Bhakti-devi, guru parampara, etc. etc.

 

Words can be posted in haste, then later retracted. Escalations can be avoided. Although accusations and counter-accusations might be flying about during a heated discussion, name calling is not at all helpful and in fact makes those involved appear too ignorant to express themselves any other way. Again, if we look at ourselves we can easily see what sets us off and use caution at those times or with those particular individuals.

 

I am personally disturbed when there appears to be mean-spirited conflict between the devotees. Differences in opinion and between personalities can at least be dealt with in a mature manner, if not with empathy and compassion. Certain individuals seem to reinforce each other when battles ensue, to the point of alienating others or actually hounding them off these forums altogether. This isn't a game like King of the Castle or Steal the Flag, prabhus. MIGHT does not indicate RIGHT, no matter how large your font. Cajoling can be more effective than cajoles...Peter/valaya

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Maitreya]

I know what you mean about name calling peter.

 

Imagine people who agree with Srila Prabhupada's words being labeled as 'homophobic paranoids'.

 

Is there no decency left?

[Dayal_Govinda]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

I know what you mean about name calling peter.

 

Imagine people who agree with Srila Prabhupada's words being labeled as 'homophobic paranoids'.

 

Is there no decency left?

Dear Maitraya,

You should understand to whom and to what I am refering when I stated that the comment was homophobic paranoia. I know members of galva and they are not plotting to decieve the devotee community. The very idea that they are is laughable. I called this homophobic paranoia because many devotees on this forum seem to be threatened by the very existance of homosexuals, thus they equate them with many abominable things such as paedophilia, promiscuity and deception.

Showing no compassion and understanding to other vaisnavas has nothing to do with following Prabhupada. It is true that he can be quoted to support many different opinions, take the womens issue for example. But what he said and how he acted were often different. We are to extract the essence of these instructions and apply them to the present situation rather than to fanatically hold on to every word that Prabhupada said as absolute for all time. Do you really believe that everything Prabhupada said will be relevant for the next 10000 years?

 

Dayal Govinda

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

This discussion seem to keep going around in circles. Just to make things clear, I am not against anyone for their weaknesses. What am I against?

 

1) Claiming a vice to be a virtue, and then trying to propagate it as harmonious and beneficial to Sri Chaitanya's path of pure devotion.

 

2) Claiming our spiritual master, Sri A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, in a secret unrecorded conversation, authorized some disciples to accept homosexual marriages. This is a great insult and offense to Srila Prabhupada. His position on this matter is not a secret. It is clearly established in his books, letters and conversations. I am sure some here would be willing to call him homophobic for his views as well.

 

3) Misrepresenting the Vedic teachings through various deceptive means to propagate that homosexuality was commonly accepted in ancient India. For example, they claim the word "napumsaka" means "homosexual" when in reality it does not mean anything even remotely similar. Even today this word is still in use in nearly all Indic languages, and it refers to one who is born with no sexual organs, it indicates one who has a physical deformaty.

 

4) That in the Srimad Bhagavatam, the word "nartaka" refers to homosexuals. The word is used throughout the Puranas to refer to "dancers". Anyone with the slightest knowledge of sanskrit understands this. Any claim that this word refers to homosexuals is an intentional distortion.

 

The real guru? Are you insinuating that Prabhupada is the only guru...

Srila Prabhupada is the "real guru", or sad-guru in sanskrit. Anyone who follows him and represents him perfectly is also a guru. But if someone claims to be his disciple, and at the same time propagates teachings contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's, that person is a cheater or bogus guru. I am not accusing anyone in particular. This is a simple principle.

 

Only 24 years has passed since Srila Prabhupada was personally present on this planet. He wanted his instructions to be the law books of man kind for the next 10,000 years. He didn't want Swami Tom, Swami Dick and Swami Harry coming along to change his instructions 24 years after he left.

 

Perhaps someone's guru has taught something different than Prabhupada. As a disciple it is their duty to accept and follow it. But you should not expect me or anyone else who is following Srila Prabhupada to accept your guru's statements. We are not his disciple. We are free to reject whatever he says in contradiction to Srila Prabhupada, and in fact it is our duty to reject it.

 

Srila Prabhupada is our samsthapaka-acharya. It is the duty of the samsthapaka-acharya to establish the rules, regulations and siddhanta of a sampradaya. He has the right and obligation to adjust external principles to suit time, place and circumstance. Others are only acharya in as much as they follow his standard. Let's not have another Kirtanananda, who claimed he was the "samsthapaka-acharya of New Vrindavana". There are no two samsthapaka-acharyas. The founder-acharya is one, and for our line it is Srila Prabhupada. Others who think they can adjust the teachings of the samsthapaka-acharya are nothing but pretenders; their authority is lost.

 

Prabhupada: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupada said." They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that.

Regarding the sinfulness of homosex:

 

Why imply that they are inherently sinful because they are gay?

We are not speaking about any particular individual. We are speaking in regards to homosexual activities in general. They are sinful, and that is clearly what Prabhupada said. Some people want us to believe Srila Prabhupada was fallible and that his views were due to his imperfect knowledge and faulty senses. This is yet another offense to the spiritual master, who is sarva-jna and akshara.

 

As far as the scriptures own view, let us look at a verse quoted in the GALVA article (which was intentionally mistranslated):

 

"Those foolish men of evil conduct who engage in all forms of intercourse, taking advantage of improper wombs (viyoni), and forcing themselves upon other men (pumsaka), are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52)

 

First, this confirms that the eunuch is born without a sexual organ of any type. It is not just a matter of sexual preference. Due to their evil conduct, they are born as eunuchs in their next life with a physical deformaty. What is that evil conduct that brings them this fate? The correct translation of viyoni is "without a female reproductive organ". So this verse actually reads:

 

"Foolish and evil men engage in all forms of sexual intercourse without a female womb, forcing themselves upon other men."

 

Their evil activity is that they are homosexual, and because of engaging in such a sinful activity they are born in the next life without their sexual organ, as a eunuch. By living as a homosexual in the present life, one becomes a eunuch (not homosexual) in the next life. This is the result of that sinful activity.

 

The shastra's statement is clear. Those who don't want to accept this try to mistranslate texts of scripture to suit their own mental concotion.

 

[Maitreya]

 

Originally posted by Dayal_Govinda:

Dear Maitraya,

You should understand to whom and to what I am refering when I stated that the comment was homophobic paranoia. I know members of galva and they are not plotting to decieve the devotee community. The very idea that they are is laughable.

 

Well facts were presented showing that none of the letters that objected to the article on Chakra were printed.The few that did supported it were printed however.You may not call it a plot but how can you deny that it is a conscious effort to stear the thinking of the devotional community in a certain direction?

Of course we all do that to some degree when we post our views on any subject.But when it is being controled in the way that Chakra's webmaster's appear to have done it easily rises to a plot on their part.

 

A reasonable person could come to that opinion.If there was collaboration with these galva folks or not is irrelevant.There is definetly a problem with the webmasters there censoring while pretending to offer a place where devotees can express dissenting opinions.

 

We are not paranoid for noticing this.

 

 

I called this homophobic paranoia because many devotees on this forum seem to be threatened by the very existance of homosexuals, thus they equate them with many abominable things such as paedophilia, promiscuity and deception.

 

Threatened?No. Disgusted with the idea of ignoring Srila Prabhupada's clear teachings on the subject,yes.Homosex IS abominable.Pretending otherwise helps no one.

 

Showing no compassion and understanding to other vaisnavas has nothing to do with following Prabhupada.

 

To me compassion means open kirtans, open classes, honoring prasad together etc.What homo has been excluded on the basis of their homosexuality?Unless they were flaunting and causing a distraction.Is there such a case?Maybe, but I have yet to hear of it.

 

It is true that he can be quoted to support many different opinions, take the womens issue for example. But what he said and how he acted were often different.

 

Yes so we should take the example.That is the point.

Example means:

Preach as he preached.Don't change anything.Which includes opposing homosex so-called marriages.

 

Do as he did.Accept anyone who is wanting to chant without the need to prequalify.

 

Offer prasadam to all without restriction.

 

In other words receive the love of Godhead from Lord Caitanya's representitives as they help Him plunder the storehouse,and as we receive also help distribute to the measure of our realization and ability.

 

 

We are to extract the essence of these instructions and apply them to the present situation rather than to fanatically hold on to every word that Prabhupada said as absolute for all time. Do you really believe that everything Prabhupada said will be relevant for the next 10000 years?

 

You are advocating directly opposing Srila Prabhupada's instructions in this matter in the name of extracting the essence.

 

Do you see nature changing anytime soon to allow for same sex progeny?In the next 10,000 or 10 million years?

 

I see no need to change anything at all in the program that he brought to the West or the whole world for that matter.

 

Further if some little change is to be made in the centuries that follow[for arguements sake]Krishna will empower His representitive to make the change.

 

No need to rely on the imperfect mental concoctions which spring forth from the tiny brains of souls conditioned by Western socilogists, as they try to impose the essence of their mundane educations onto the transcendental realizations of Lord Caitanyas empowered spokesmen.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Further if some little change is to be made in the centuries that follow[for arguements sake]Krishna will empower His representitive to make the change.

 

No need to rely on the imperfect mental concoctions which spring forth from the tiny brains of souls conditioned by Western socilogists, as they try to impose the essence of their mundane educations onto the transcendental realizations of Lord Caitanyas empowered spokesmen.

I think thats the point we need to understand.