Srila Prabhupada said... but it wasn't recorded.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

This was in a private conversation...

Yeah, and I had some "private conversations" with Prabhupada too. He said all the devotees should hand their savings over to me. I can't figure out why they aren't following Prabhupada's instructions.

 

I have also heard this same story from two other sources, the point being, who can really say what Prabhupada would say and do?

The problem is we have a direct instruction from Srila Prabhupada not to believe what "Prabhupada said" unless it is recorded or in writing. Now this is his direct instruction on the matter, Some people don't want to obey Srila Prabhupada's direct instruction, and instead spread lies and rumours in the name of Srila Prabhupada simply because it conforms with their mental speculation.

 

They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said."

 

Letter from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to Omkara Dasi, 9/2/75

 

Thats what Prabhupada has directly instructed. Don't disobey his instruction while claiming to be a disciple.

 

And how about these:

 

Prabhupada: But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: "Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that."

 

And I think this is Srila Prabhupada's own answer to bogus gurus adjusting the principles:

 

Prabhupada: And if you add some concoction just like somebody says that "I may do whatever I like independently. If I chant, then everything is all right," this is nonsense addition. It is not the fact. That is the danger. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concoction. Sometimes they say, "Prabhupada said it." More misleading. Yes.

 

Yes, more misleading. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concotion. This is nonsense.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 09-01-2001).]

[leyh]

There has apparently been a discrepancy (changes?) where Srila Prabhupada's words were recorded/written down. I discovered this when I recently discovered two different versions of conversation transcripts that Srila Prabhupada had with George Harrison.Sometime ago,I posted the folowing excerpt from Dark Horse:The Life and Art of George Harrison by Geoffery Giuliano on this forum:

 

 

George Harrison: I seem to keep going around in circles. Maybe it has something to do with me being a Pisces, one fish going this way and one going that way. I have periods where I can't stop chanting and other times where I turn into a demon and forget to chant.

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada: You are not a demon, you are demigod! Somehow or other you were attracted to Krishna, so let Him help you.

 

George: I'm reading the Gita. I read it over and over, just one section again and again.

 

Srila Prabhupada: All the instructions are there. So, this is your duty now. By the grace of Krishna you are a very great personality. You are a young man, but Krishna has blessed you with such a high position, there are many young men who follow you.

 

George: In a way, when you really commit yourself to something it's like putting your head on the chopping block. Someone can turn around and chop it off, or you're lucky, and it doesn't get chopped off. I find the more commitment I make, even though it's a small one, I find it provokes bad reactions.

 

Srila Prabhupada: There is a saying, "If one is foolish and you give him good instruction he will become angry." Has it happened like that?

 

George: I feel a little animosity from people. In some ways the more committed you are, and the stronger you are in what you do, the stronger the animosity. Sometimes I get the feeling there's one person to whom it means something real and ten it doesn't mean anything to. I'm not sure how it all balances out.

 

Devotee: If you reach one person it's worth it.

 

George: But what if you don't reach anyone? If you only reach one person and by reaching that one twenty people are annoyed.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, preaching is very difficult. When one preaches, he must tell the truth. Just like Jesus Christ, people didn't like his preaching but he did not stop. That is another point. In preaching there is always the possibility of creating animosity. By the way, I have heard your new album, 'Living in the Material World' is being appreciated by many people.

 

George: There is one song in particular which was a direct result of the conversation we had when you came to my home and we talked about fame and fortune.

 

Srila Prabhupada: People are seeking after something spiritually enlightening. Especially in the Western World, that is a fact. Sometimes though people become angry. We have no reason to make enemies, we are simply teaching love.

 

George: There is one problem I've found when chanting, I start beginning to relate less and less to the people I know. I suddenly found myself on such a different level where it's really hard to relate. It feels as though I'm at a point where I should slow down or pull back towards those people in order to take them with me. The building up of the mantra and it's effect is so subtle. There's a point where I can't relate to anyone anymore. Maybe you don't have that experience.

 

Devotee: George is saying that when he chants he becomes spiritualized so it's difficult for him to relate to his business associates.

 

George: Not even that, my friends, my wife, anybody!

 

Srila Prabhupada: Your wife is very nice. She's a nice girl.

 

George: Yes she is, she's an angel.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Your wife is intersted in Krishna Consciousness, that is a very great advantage.

 

George: What happens is if I'm not into it too deeply, I'll come down to begin the day and be quite nice and off we go. The periods where I'm so deeply into chanting all the time I'll come down and I'm like Ravana . I'm not smiling, and I'm not particularly happy. It's like there's more urgency involved. Perhaps it's the realization that everybody's wasting their time doing mundane things.

 

Devotee: But while you were chanting you wrote these beautiful songs and it's proven by everyone purchasing them that they want to hear that.

 

George: The problem is where to find the balance, because obviously I know where I benefit from doing that. However, I'm benefiting so much that suddenly I'm out on a limb and it's hard to pull those people along with you. There's a point where suddenly I'm not going to know them anymore.

 

Devotee: George says it's difficult when you become spiritualized by chanting. He feels it's a dangerous position because he will be cut off from his audience, the ordinary people. He's afraid they will not understand him and he will not be able to take them with him to that point.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, keep your balance. Don't spoil your position. Regarding your talent, it is not ordinary. You are getting money. It is not that you should refuse it. Our policy is not that you don't touch money. Krishna says we should do so many things and money allows one to do so.

 

George: We've just been making some music in California and one of the songs (it's Ravi Shankar's music) is based on the ten incarnations of Vishnu. It's a beautiful song. But I was wondering why there isn't anything in the lyrics concerning Krishna?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Krishna is not an incarnation, rather, Krishna is the origin of all incarnations. His incarnations are called "avatar" but He is "avatari". Therefore the song is a prayer to Krishna. It was composed by a great Vaisnava poet.

 

George: There is one song, it is simple and beautiful. It's in English and only has three lines. "I am missing you, Krishna, where are you? Though I can't see you I hear you flute all the while. Please come wipe my tears and make me smile." It's so sweet I'm sure it's going to be very popular.

 

Srila Prabhupada: When I entered this room I said, "All glories to George Harrison!" You have given us this center and Krishna will surely give you shelter at his lotus feet. You are very nice and sincere.

 

George: The Krishna Consciousness Movement is getting so big there's going to be a point where its going to need such fantastic management... At the moment we have Prabhupada who is the figure-head which everyone can draw energy from. Sooner or later though, everybody's going to be out there on their own and carry out what they've learned.

 

Devotee: We'll always rely on our spiritual master, even if he is no longer with us. We'll always take our strength from him.

 

George: I must go but I'll be back very quickly.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are going alone or is someone going with you?

 

George: I go alone...Well a little bit of you will be with me!

 

Srila Prabhupada: My blessings to your wife. Thank you very much for your kindness.

 

 

According to Giuliano: "Amazingly, on September of 1996 a tape recording of a conversation between Harrison and Prabhupada was found at the bottom of an old cardboard box in North Carolina. Intensely interesting due to the confidential tone of the talk George seems to let loose a torrent of emotion as regards both his sagging homelife and devotional practice."

 

The chapter from which the above conversation was quoted can be found online at http://www.geoffrey-giuliano.com/on-line.html

 

I found another version that I found at the Bhaktivedanta Archives (www.prabhupada.com)

 

 

Conversation with George Harrison at Bhaktivedanta Manor, 1973:

 

Syamasundara: Anyway, the translation is, "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."

Prabhupada: So this is your duty now. (laughs) By the grace of Krsna you are one of the great men. Although you are young man, but Krsna has placed you in such a high position that there are many young men who follows you. So that is the instruction.

George: There is some? You know, Syamasundara and I were talking just on the way here, and it's like when you commit yourself to something, in a way it's like putting your head on the chopping block. Because people, you know, somebody can turn around and chop it off or it may be lucky and, you know, it doesn't get chopped off.

Prabhupada: No, it is not chopping off.

George: I find that this, um, the more commitment that you make, or that I make, even though it's such a little commitment, I mean, relatively speaking it's such a little one. Now I'm getting in the area where I find that people are? It provokes, um?

Prabhupada: Thoughts.

George: Well, sometimes it provokes bad reaction.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Syamasundara: Sometimes people become agitated by his words.

Prabhupada: Oh. Murkhaya upadeso hi prakopaya santaya. There is a verse that if one is foolish, if you give him good instruction he becomes angry. Just like the example is given, payah-panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. If you keep a snake and if you give him milk the result will be that his poison will be increased. Payah-panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. So sometimes it happens that ah, if one is foolish, if you give him good advice he becomes angry. Murkhaya upadeso hi prakopaya santaya. But, has it happened like that? No, I don't think so.

George: I, you know, you can feel, I can feel a little animosity comes from people who, I don't know for what reason, but people?

Syamasundara: Envious maybe.

Prabhupada: Envious.

George: I don't know which is, in some ways the more committed you are to the thing and the stronger that you are in what you do then the stronger the animosity becomes.

Prabhupada: Yes, the other side.

George: And I'm not sure if? You know, sometimes I get the feeling that maybe there's one person who it means something real to and ten people who it doesn't mean anything to. And I'm not sure how it, if it all balances out in the end whether...

Syamasundara: Well, that one person though, if you reach one person he is worth all of them.

George: But say you don't reach any people, and then you have a choice of reaching people and you only reach one, but in, by reaching that one you have twenty people who are annoyed. You know, how do you??

Prabhupada: Yes, sometimes it happens.

Syamasundara: His question is that if you preach and you see many men, you meet many men. You may make? If you meet ten men you may make nine of them enemies and only one will become helped by your preaching. So how is that?

George: But if you don't say anything then maybe with all the ten of them are quite friendly.

Syamasundara: Is that? How is that beneficial?

Prabhupada: Yes, the preaching is different, you see. When one preaches he must tell the truth. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. The people did not like his preaching but he did not stop his preaching. That is another point. You see? So in the preaching propaganda there is possibility of creating animosity.

 

Same conversation, different words...can anyone explain this?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

One was edited for popular publication and reading, the other is as it was spoken.

 

Buy the cassette and see for yourself if you want, they are available to anyone.

[leyh]

Originally posted by jndas:

One was edited for popular publication and reading, the other is as it was spoken.

 

Buy the cassette and see for yourself if you want, they are available to anyone.

Somehow I don't think Srila Prabhupada would approve of his recorded words being edited.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-02-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by leyh:

Somehow I don't think Srila Prabhupada would approve of his recorded words being edited.

 

Perhapsyou do not think at all. Srila Prabhupada had Hayagriva edit his words on direct instruction. You do not know much about Srila Prabhupada, do you? You just want to fault-find his disciples.

[leyh]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Perhapsyou do not think at all. Srila Prabhupada had Hayagriva edit his words on direct instruction. You do not know much about Srila Prabhupada, do you? You just want to fault-find his disciples.

Dear random axis:

a)Just because Srila Prabhupada instructed Hayagriva to edit his words on one or a few occasions (I don't know)is not a general "licence to edit".How do you know that the conversation with George Harrison was edited with Srila Prabhupada's approval?

b)I will be the first person to admit that I do not know much about Srila Prabhupada, but how do you know that I "just want to fault find his disciples"? I am concerned with the purity of the recording of Srila Prabhupada's words and I am indeed mystified as to how you came to the conclusion that I had something against Srila Prabhupada's disciples...please explain...

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

...the folowing excerpt from Dark Horse:The Life and Art of George Harrison by Geoffery Giuliano...

This book has no connection with ISKCON or Srila Prabhupada, so there is nothing we can do if they edited his conversation.

 

[Gauracandra]

Actually, apparently George Harrison was not very happy with this Geoffery Giuliano and I can see why. George wants his spiritual life private. This guy just wanted to exploit George for his own profit motive. It kind of made me sick when there were rumors about George Harrison passing away from cancer, that this Mr. Giuliano was speaking to the press about how George would pass away at Krsna Balaram Mandir and all the rituals that would be performed. Give the man a little privacy, and stop trying to exploit him just to get some publicity. I must say, I don't know much about this Mr. Giuliano, but every time I see something with him it seems just a tad gaudy and distasteful.

 

Gauracandra

[leyh]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Actually, apparently George Harrison was not very happy with this Geoffery Giuliano and I can see why. George wants his spiritual life private. This guy just wanted to exploit George for his own profit motive. It kind of made me sick when there were rumors about George Harrison passing away from cancer, that this Mr. Giuliano was speaking to the press about how George would pass away at Krsna Balaram Mandir and all the rituals that would be performed. Give the man a little privacy, and stop trying to exploit him just to get some publicity. I must say, I don't know much about this Mr. Giuliano, but every time I see something with him it seems just a tad gaudy and distasteful.

 

Gauracandra

Dear Gauracandra:

I don't know whether you're aware of this,but Geoffery Giuliano is a devotee of Krsna and he has now legally changed his name to Jagannatha Dasa and runs a Vaishnava Ashram in Lockport, New York. His book Dark Horse:The Life and Art of George Harrison has a knowledgeable and favourable portrayal of the Vaishnava tradition and the Hare Krsna Movement.

Maybe he is misguided in his putting of George Harrison's spiritual life in the limelight,but I don't think its for profit motive.It seems to me that Geoffery Giuliano is utilizing George's fame to promote Krsna Consciousness.Geoffery Giuliano has also said in an interview that he had written the book Dark Horse as "a wake up call for Mr. Harrison." A transcript of the interview(in which Giuliano explains his spiritual beliefs and his opinions about George Harrison) can be found at http://www.eskimo.com/~cathy/hariontour/ggiuliano.htm

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-02-2001).]

[Guest guest]

LOL! Puripad is promoting Puripad.

 

At least he is no longer Ronald McDonald.

 

For a few laughs, check out http://www.puripada.com/

 

But be forwarned and bring your barf bag!

[Guest guest]

Puripad is also the miscreant that stole the CD from the Poison Committee investigating the poisoning of Srila Prabhupada. You sure have strange idols, leyh!

[leyh]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Puripad is also the miscreant that stole the CD from the Poison Committee investigating the poisoning of Srila Prabhupada. You sure have strange idols, leyh!

Dear Random Axis:

Geoffery Giuliano is not my idol.But you may be right about me having "strange" idols.My list of idols includes a youth who is eternally young and spends a lot of time playing his flute,an eldery swami who started an international spiritual movement by chanting the holy names of God under a tree and a man who voluntarily allowed himself to be crucified.These three might be "strange" to the worldly,but I am very fond of them...and I'm sure they enjoy quite a large following too...

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-02-2001).]

[livingentity]

Well, this guy was Ronald MacDonald! Have you ever seen his website?

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

I don't know much about this Mr. Giuliano, but every time I see something with him it seems just a tad gaudy and distasteful.

 

Gauracandra

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

LOL! Puripad is promoting Puripad.

 

At least he is no longer Ronald McDonald.

 

For a few laughs, check out http://www.puripada.com/

 

But be forwarned and bring your barf bag!

 

Thanks for the tip! Lockport, NY is just over the border so perhaps I can visit and report back to you all here.

 

BB, you can't expect others, especially newcomers, to know all that has happened or the personalities involved in who did what to whom, etc. You have so much to share and I really wish you would, for all of our sakes, including yours. Don't worry about how it's said, just say it somehow or other.

 

There may be certain limitations on these forums, but my Email is always open to you as is the phone. Confidentiality is assured, prabhu, I just want to know the whole story of Prabhupada's ISKCON, and you were there. What if you fall off a mountain or something? Then it's too late! Peter/valaya

 

 

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Okay amanpeter. I know I sound like an envious snake 99% of the time, but the fact is I cannot stand cheaters in the guise of gurus. And that includes the ISKCON ones and the looneytunes like Puripad.

 

It is caveat emptor in spiritual life. But then, if one wants to be cheated, Krsna will send you a cheater. If one wants the real thing, then Krsna will send you the real thing. All based on desire. I couldn't care less whom one desires, it is just after three decades of seeing these bhogi-yogis it gets old after a while. DDSOS!

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Okay amanpeter. I know I sound like an envious snake 99% of the time, but the fact is I cannot stand cheaters in the guise of gurus. And that includes the ISKCON ones and the looneytunes like Puripad.

 

It is caveat emptor in spiritual life. But then, if one wants to be cheated, Krsna will send you a cheater. If one wants the real thing, then Krsna will send you the real thing. All based on desire. I couldn't care less whom one desires, it is just after three decades of seeing these bhogi-yogis it gets old after a while. DDSOS!

Prabhu, I don't know what DDSOS means. You don't seem at all like an envious snake, not to me anyway. Like so many others, what has happened brought grief, frustration, and anger to your sincere heart, which desired only to serve Srila Prabhupada with everything you had. You sacrificed so much of your life, in fact your very self, as did others who truly believed that they could magically transform the whole world immediately by His Divine Grace.

 

Now, when we look back reflectively, our idealism can't help but be clouded with a certain amount of cynicism. I can only say that this is just the beginning of Lord Caitanya's Golden Age and we'll all be together for a long time yet, doing whatever it takes. It's just not going to occur overnight as we thought it would or how we might have envisioned it happening.

 

In our own way, each of us is `keeping the faith` deep in our heart-of-hearts, behind all that heavy armour we may show to the world. I beleve in all of you, because my faith is not exclusive, but in His Divine Grace working mysteriously through every devotee, though they themselves are mostly unaware of their own devotion. Victory is already assured. JAI JAI SRI RADHE!!! valaya

 

[jijaji]

i remember one time when they were implememting the gaurd program at the early iskcon temple I was in and they wanted to make all males undergo the training. The idea was so we would all be able to defend the temple/deities if they were attacked. I remember a letter that wascirculated at that time wherein Prabhupada was encouraging the temple gaurd program, and in that letter he said.." The Christians were OUR greatest enimies" ..of course many will discount this . But I swear by what I hold dear and true I read it with my own eyes..I don't know if anyone else can confirm this ..from back in 72, 73..

 

jijaji

 

------------------

PEACE OUT NOW

[Maitreya]

Is this it?

 

 

Letter to: Kirtanananda

--

Mayapur

14 June, 1973

73-06-14

New Vrndavana

My dear Kirtanananda Maharaja,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated June 6, 1973 and have noted the contents with great care and concern.

The deities may be immediately repaired and worshiped. Now we must take precaution as you have suggested. You may get some guns and some of the boys may be trained as ksatriyas. Such gun shots could have taken place long ago since we are challenging everybody. So we must be prepared to fight. We cannot stop this movement. It is actually a fight against Maya. So Maya may also sometimes cause casualties in our camp. So, we must only thank Krsna and seriously dedicate everything for Him. So, you are Kirtanananda Maharaja, take pleasure in performing kirtana. That is our real weapon against Maya.

I am very pleased that the corner stone function was nicely done and successful. Continue the work enthusiastically. Thank you very much for the check for $200.

I am slowly regaining my health. It is now the rainy season here and accordingly the digestive process is slowed down. Therefore the rainy season means slow recovery.

I was just thinking of you and wondering why I hadn't heard from you in a long time. You'll be pleased to know that your assistant Srutakirti is here. He's feeling all right. This boy appears to be a very sincere devotee.

Upon your recommendation I am pleased to accept the devotees you have recommended for first and second initiation. You may chant on the beads of the first initiates and I am enclosing six sanctified sacred threads for the second initiates. Play the tape of me reciting gayatri mantra into the right ear of the brahmanas. The names of the first initiates are: Jim Hessler--Krpacarya das; Jack Mower--Kasyapa das; Chuck St. Dennis--Cakradhari.

Hoping this meets you in good health.

Your ever well wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

P.S. On top of the towers on the temple, you should make Visnu's colus (or cakra) and a flag.

ACBS/jda

 

Edit to add bold

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Maitreya]

We have his books and lectures etc.So we can cross check with what is written.Anyting else is faulty.

 

The best example I can think of is Prabhupada wrote that Acarya is self-effugent,but some thought they heard him appoint them guru in contradiction to this.

 

I can't trust my own senses nor my own motivations.Best to stick with his recorded instructions.

 

Now how to keep those from being adulterated.

 

YS MS

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

{snip}

The names of the first initiates are: Jim Hessler--Krpacarya das; Jack Mower--Kasyapa das; Chuck St. Dennis--Cakradhari.

Hoping this meets you in good health.

Your ever well wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

P.S. On top of the towers on the temple, you should make Visnu's colus (or cakra) and a flag.

ACBS/jda

 

 

Chakradhari was later brutally murdered by Thomas Drescher (Tirtha) in Non Vrindavan.

 

 

[This message has been edited by rand0M aXiS (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by livingentity:

That's the difficult part. There some groups dedicated to this project. For the most part I scour used book stores both on-line and in person and have come up with some treasures of Prabhupada nectar.

I have most of Srila Prabhupada's original books (SB, CC and BG along with all the small books) in MS Word format. If anyone wants I can email them. These are from the original words before Jayapataka et al got a hold of them.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Chakradhari was later brutally murdered by Thomas Drescher (Tirtha) in Non Vrindavan.

 

 

 

I knew Chakradari.We used to have wrestling matches.I still remember the shock of reading about his death in Monkey on a Stick.

"The horrorthe horror".

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Is this it?

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-03-2001).]

No this IS not the letter, because the letter we received was not addressed to mayapur. Also it did say and I quote..

" The Christians are OUR greatest enemies"

 

jijaji

 

------------------

PEACE OUT NOW

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by jijaji:

No this IS not the letter, because the letter we received was not addressed to mayapur. Also it did say and I quote..

" The Christians are OUR greatist enemies"

 

jijaji

 

Perhaps the letter you saw jijaji was a forgery. Or perhaps it is your imperfect senses. I have copies of all Srila Prabhupada's published letters, and none of them have this quote. I even have copies of letters that Srila Prabhupada wrote to me that I keep unpublished, and none of them talk about Christians in this way. As a matter of fact, he glorifies Lord Jesus in them.

 

This is a perfect example of "Srila Prabhupada said"....

[jijaji]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Perhaps the letter you saw jijaji was a forgery. Or perhaps it is your imperfect senses. I have copies of all Srila Prabhupada's published letters, and none of them have this quote. I even have copies of letters that Srila Prabhupada wrote to me that I keep unpublished, and none of them talk about Christians in this way. As a matter of fact, he glorifies Lord Jesus in them.

 

This is a perfect example of "Srila Prabhupada said"....

You will believe what you will. Good Luck sorting through the truth.

Prabhupada also said that Christianity was a lower form of Religion..why cling to it so..?

 

jijaji