What's wrong with homosexualtiy?

[amanpeter]

 

I think there may be some misunderstanding of sinful activity as morality or value judgements. Sin is that which separates us from the knowledge of our eternal relationship with God, while morality is the distinction between good and evil in relation to their effect on an individual or society as a whole. Values can be simply a set of cultural or other beliefs that may hold no relationship to the absolute truth.

 

All this just came off the top of my head, prabhus. If these are not the correct interpretations, please set me straight. Should none of this be relevant to our discussions, please disregard.

 

 

[Audarya lila]

I've stayed out of this discussion for the most part because devotees seem to have such strong feelings about this that rationality and compassion is thrown to the wind. (notice the moderator's need to eliminate certain posts)

 

Jndas, you said on the other thread that you feel it is only the samshtapaka-acharya who can make adjustments to teachings according to time, place and circumstance. Can you provide any sastric evidence for such a statement? You have said that the acharya must follow and has no ability to make adjustments - otherwise he is a pretender. Again, I ask you where is the sastric evidence supporting this statement. Acharya means to teach by example. If the acharya is not competent to make adjustments according to time, place and circumstance what is the meaning to his teaching or of his functioning as a teacher? If he is not competent to make adjustments, he certainly is no teacher. I'll give you a mundane example. I am a biochemist and I have occasion to train others in such things as protein purification. I don't teach others based on the 'exact' methods I was first taught. I teach based on principles which must be applied to changing technology and advances in science. The spiritual master teaches spiritual principles and is an expert at applying these principles according to time, place and circumstance. There will always be a need for advanced devotees to apply the principles according to changing times and to reinvigorate the tradition and make the teaching relevant to the generation at hand. Just because there are plenty of bad examples like Kirtananada doesn't mean that we must bury our heads in the sand and say - see 'he wasn't competent to make adjustments - therefore no one is'.

 

What are the two over-riding rules for all devotees? Always remember Krsna and never foget him! Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was prepared to serve meat to guests in order to get them to hear the message of Lord Chaitanya. Our vision is limited, but our acharyas are calling all souls to engage themselves in devotional service.

 

As a matter of principle I would like to ask a question to all the readers here. What is better, in your opinion, a pretender who covers all his/her faults and makes a show of being something and somewhere he/she isn't and fails to make tangible progress due to denial and lying to themselves or someone who is honest about their conditioning and faults and strives from their actual position to make real progress?

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[JRdd]

Thank you, audaryalila for voicing what I too was wondering about jndas' qords about the sthampakacarya. I look forward to his reply. What I would like to address now is something else you said:

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

As a matter of principle I would like to ask a question to all the readers here. What is better, in your opinion, a pretender who covers all his/her faults and makes a show of being something and somewhere he/she isn't and fails to make tangible progress due to denial and lying to themselves or someone who is honest about their conditioning and faults and strives from their actual position to make real progress?

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

I for one agree with the words of another devotee which I would like to post here, speaking of the position of those who admittedly spend a good deal of their energy fighting off lust, which is in itself a kind of pretense when coupled with the idea that not acting on it (though the thoughts dwell on it) is a solution, instead of dovetailing it as is suggested herein (bold is my own addition):

 

"...substituting the valid association of a woman in devotional service with mindless anarthas which will drag one down, instead of like SP said about associating with his women..."

 

I think there is a lot in these few words and that if one examines them thoughtfully will see profound connections to the issue under discussion, as well as some answers to major reasons for the weakness of the Vaisnava community.

 

your servant,

Jayaradhe

 

(edited for typos)

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-04-2001).]

[amanpeter]

JRdd prabhu, could you please clarify your post for me? I would like to try and understand clearly what you are saying. Thanks. valaya

[Gauracandra]

How much has truly changed in a little over 23 years? Shall we just reject the direct statements of Srila Prabhupada? Srila Prabhupada was very direct that homosexuality was a sin and not compatible with making advancements in spiritual life. Is our philosophy so wishy washy that anytime some guru comes along they shall just adjust. Every 5 years, every 2 months, every day? Why not? One day we shall say abortion is ok. One day we shall say Scamkirtan is ok. One day we shall say all sorts of nonsense for the purpose of attracting followers and money.

 

Here is the issue I see. No one is preventing any of these individuals from participating in devotional life. NO ONE. Let me repeat this again. NO ONE is preventing homosexuals from coming to the temple. NO ONE is preventing homosexuals from chanting and dancing. NO ONE is preventing homosexuals from reading transcendental literatures.

 

So where is the problem? The problem comes when people want to pretend that Vaisnava theology accepts homosexuality. It does not. The entire Galva website was established to lie. They even claim on that website that homosexuals in "Vedic" society were admired because they were detached from sex attraction and the demands of household life. HA!!!! You have got to be kidding me. That is complete nonsense. So what is the point of putting that and so much other nonsense... it is solely to make homosexuality something to be admired.

 

Let me repeat. NO ONE is preventing such individuals from engaging in devotional service. This is simply a straw man. What these individuals want to do is distort the philosophy. What these individuals have claimed in essence is that Srila Prabhupada didn't know what he was talking about. He wasn't conversant enough with the Vedic teachings. If only he were as smart as the people on Galva then he wouldn't have made such statements against homosexuals.

 

There was a lie told to the Vaisnava community. The lie started on the Galva website, and was localized. Then the lie was spread on a worldwide basis on Chakra, by Madhusudhani Radha (a person who consistently attacks Srila Prabhupada) and Vipramukhya Swami. Let us tell it as it is.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was prepared to serve meat to guests in order to get them to hear the message of Lord Chaitanya.

Yes, but did he ever do this? I do not know. Please tell.

 

Here is another story. Srila Gaur Kishore Das Babaji Maharaj said that after he died he wanted his body dragged across the rocks and ground. After he passed away Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was going to put him in Samadhi. But one follower of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta protested and said "But shouldn't we first drag his body all over the rocks?" Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said no, that Srila Gaur Kishore Das Babaji was being humble, but they should honor his body.

 

There are many examples of stories where foolish disciples do not understand what is truly being said. I don't remember which guru it was, but after he died, all the disciples sat back and let his body decompose and decay. Srila Prabhupada I believe commented on this saying such disciples are useless. Isn't the body of the spiritual master completely holy? Isn't this what the guru has instructed? So these foolish disciples thought it would never decompose. What is the use of such disciples? They are just mental speculators.

 

Suppose some guru came along and said "It is Kali Yuga now, let me open a strip club, but play the maha mantra in the background". Shall we do that as well? If anything goes, then nothing matters. The guru doesn't matter, the philosophy doesn't matter. We'll all just degrade ourselves and think we are liberated.

 

Gauracandra

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Dayal_Govinda]

 

Originally posted by jndas:

 

"Srila Prabhupada is our samsthapaka-acharya. It is the duty of the samsthapaka-acharya to establish the rules, regulations and siddhanta of a sampradaya. He has the right and obligation to adjust external principles to suit time, place and circumstance.... There are no two samsthapaka-acharyas. The founder-acharya is one, and for our line it is Srila Prabhupada. Others who think they can adjust the teachings of the samsthapaka-acharya are nothing but pretenders; their authority is lost."

 

Srila Prabhupada our samsthapaka acharya?

The line we belong to is known as the Caitanya Saraswata Parampara a term coined (I believe) by Srila BR Sridhara Maharaj. The samsthapaka acharya for this line is Srila Rupa Goswami. He has delineated the rules for the Gaudiya sampradaya, it is in fact he and the other Goswamis (Bhaktivinode, the seventh goswami, included) who gave form to Sri Caitanya's ecstacy.

 

Do you honestly believe that Srila Prabhupada established the Gaudiya siddhanta? Why then did he say that he was simply repeating the words of his guru maharaja?

You mention that there are no 2 samsthapaka acharyas, this I must agree with. There are no 2 Rupa Goswamis.

It appears that from your point of view no one in our parampara has adjusted the teachings according to time place and circumstance except Srila Prabhupada, this is obviously untrue. For what reason was Bhaktivinode given the epithet "The 7th goswami", his work in changing the face of Gaudiya vaisnavism was unparalelled. So too was his son, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati, a pioneer in renovating the application of the Gaudiya siddhanta to the climate of the times.

 

So too did his disciple, Srila Prabhupada, adjust the application of the teachings in accordance with time place and circumstance. Srila Prabhupada did this less than 30 years after the passing of his Prabhupada, could the times have changed that much in 28 short years?

How much has changed in the 24 years since our Prabhupada's passing? I suggest that if one thinks that nothing has changed since then one should get out more often. One obvious example is the internet.

 

If one cannot adjust the details in accordance with the social climate that one finds themselves within, then the Gaudiya tradition will simply stagnate.

 

The Parampara is a living current and as the torch is passed from one acharya to the next, new light may be shed on the teachings and their application.

 

Prabhupada was the embodiment of this principle, are we to suggest that the parampara begins and ends with him?

 

Dayal Govinda dasa

 

 

 

[amanpeter]

`Birds of a feather flock together`, but the question remains--for what purpose? Unfortunately, the tendency is there to justify and assist each other in maintaining the particular false-ego identity that initially caused us to split into our separate group. When I stopped using drugs, there went my `friends` in that social circle! Devotees aren't out to win popularity contests or top public opinion polls!

 

If we see our group as separate and different, it's natural to believe that uniqueness indicates some superiority, at least in certain aspects. There's a Vietnam war style memorial wall here in Toronto dedicated to the `saintly warriors` that succumbed to AIDS. Please, give us a break! It demeans the real sacrifices and suffering of so many others, does it not?

 

I'm with Gauracandra, I'm afraid, in saying that all are welcome to join us, but not define us for their own purposes. Not that there actually is any intentional concerted group effort to do so; I don't know, but the tendency is there. Doesn't each Christian religious denomination consider it's own church as the best? If individual members didn't think so, they would likely be attending somewhere else.

 

Whatever we need for Krsna conciousness has been given to us by Srila Prabhupada. It's most unfortunate that so many feel their needs unfulfilled within ISKCON, including more than a few of us here on these forums. Still, we must be extremely careful not to justify our position, individually or collectively, at the expense of the absolute truth as passed down to us by the previous acaryas. This holds true particularly in the case of initiated disciples, what to speak of those that have followers of their own. HARIBOL! Peter/valaya

[Gauracandra]

What has changed is the further degradation of Kali Yuga. Now homosexuality is thought of as good. Abortion is thought of as good. Meat eating is thought of as good. Drug usage is thought of as good.

 

Yes, let us change these. I shall now go open my strip club, play the Maha Mantra in the background, make loads of money and plenty of "disciples" and we shall all be Krsna Conscious. Nonsense.

 

Let us not change the subject.

 

Let us remember the objection to the Galva site and the objection to Chakra's lie. It is this: Homosexuality is not supported by Vaisnava theology. The Galva website is full of such distortions. The Chakra website propagated these lies.

 

NO ONE is preventing these homosexuals from engaging in devotional service. NO ONE is stopping these homosexuals from chanting and dancing. NO ONE is preventing these homosexuals from reading transcendental literatures.

 

What Galva has done is try to normalize homosexuality. Actually not even normalize but glorify. Its better than heterosexuality as there are no attachments to children. Nonsense. They want to suggest its just 'another lifestyle'. Shall we degrade our philosophy so much.

 

Don't change the philosophy. Change yourself. Don't say vice=virtue. We should all work to make ourselves virtuous. This is the issue at hand. We must stop these lies by Chakra and Galva before they degrade the philosophy. Else we might as well just follow the demoniac trends of Kali Yuga straight down the toilet.

 

What has changed in 24 years? I tell you what has changed. People think that Srila Prabhupada didn't know what homosexuality was. People think that Srila Prabhupada wasn't smart enough and didn't understand the "true" Vedic injunctions. Why do people think this? Because of sites like Chakra and Galva.

 

Gauracandra

[nine9]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

What Galva has done is try to normalize homosexuality. Actually not even normalize but glorify. Its better than heterosexuality as there are no attachments to children. Nonsense. They want to suggest its just 'another lifestyle'. Shall we degrade our philosophy so much?

That is untrue. Homosexuality can never be normalised, but neither are we attempting to do so. It is not nice to be "homosexual". It is dreadful to never be able to have children. And it is horrible to be forced to live apart, to be stigmatised simply by what others think you get up to in the bedroom. However, we will always be pushed outside the door by bigoted small-minded persons such as yourself who are unwilling to look beyond material characteristics.

 

Please desist from discussing us when we no longer want to participate. Kicking a man when he's down is far from honourable. And doing so when you have deliberately taken the floor out from underneath him, even less so.

 

YHS

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by nine9:

That is untrue. We can never be normal. It is not nice to be "homosexual". It is dreadful to never be able to have children. And it is horrible to be forced to live apart. However, we will always be pushed outside the door by bigoted small-minded persons such as yourself who are unwilling to look beyond material characteristics.

 

Please desist from discussing us when we no longer want to participate. Kicking a man when he's down is far from honourable.

 

YHS

 

Mark

 

 

Gauracandra said:

 

NO ONE is preventing these homosexuals from engaging in devotional service. NO ONE is stopping these homosexuals from chanting and dancing. NO ONE is preventing these homosexuals from reading transcendental literatures. [/qoute]

 

Hey Mark, he is not a bigot for disagreeing with you and neither am I.

 

Your crew brought this up.Don't want to talk about it or don't want to hear the arguements from the other side of the debate.

 

Let's drop the subject entirely, and who ever started the offensive galva site and org. should simply delete it.

 

Don't ask don't tell is the best thing in this circumstance.

 

My respects to you as an aspiring Vaisnava,

Hare Krishna

 

 

 

[nine9]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

NO ONE is preventing these homosexuals from engaging in devotional service.

Disagree. Temple authorities have known to be ruthless in their lack of compassion, kicking people out due to rumours and scaremongering. A person's life before taking shelter of the spiritual master should not have any bearing on his devotional service, as long as it is good and free from offence. However, in many cases Temple authorities have neglected this principle.

 

NO ONE is stopping these homosexuals from chanting and dancing. NO ONE is preventing these homosexuals from reading transcendental literatures.

Agreed. That is true, however we are often denied association. It's far more than the facts and reality of what homosexuality is, but also the perceived notions - that "scaremongering" I was talking about. For example, there are cases of people being chucked out of temples just because it was known that they were HIV+, but they were never asked how they got it, etc. It's misconceptions I'm on about, here.

 

Hey Mark, he is not a bigot for disagreeing with you and neither am I.

Well, we're never going to get agreement now, are we? I know that. I'm glad at least that I'm celibate...I know we will never come to an agreement as to whether or not it is proper to have a celibate homosexual relationship. ...And truth be told I am sorry for my reaction.

 

Your crew brought this up.Don't want to talk about it or don't want to hear the arguements from the other side of the debate.

 

Disagree. Yes, we do, but only where they are civil, non-offensive, and do not send Bhakti Devi running away. It was nice and civil to begin with, e.g. when Brahma dasa was posting, but now it's become a little painful for both sides. I'd rather not fight.

 

Let's drop the subject entirely

Agree. I certainly won't be posting here on this subject again.

 

Who ever started the offensive galva site and org. should simply delete it.

 

Disagree.

 

Don't ask don't tell is the best thing in this circumstance.

 

Agreed. Let's just forget all of this. I mean, I'd rather talk about my latest halva recipe, actually.

 

My respects to you as an aspiring Vaisnava,

Hare Krishna

 

Thank you, prabhu.

 

I beg to remain,

Your humble servant,

 

Rama Kesava dasa

(Mark)

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Srila Prabhupada our samsthapaka acharya?

He is my samsthapaka-acharya, and anyone that is his disciple, as well as anyone associated with ISKCON as well. I don't know which line you are following, so he may not be your samsthapaka-acharya. But for his disciples, he insisted, "I am the founder-acharya." Founder-acharya is a technical word that has a definition, it does not refer to a "founder" and an "acharya", but to the compound "samsthapaka-acharya". Srila Prabhupada insisted that this title be printed on every official ISKCON literature along with his name. When the word ISKCON is printed, it must be followed by "Founder-Acharya A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada". For those who follow Srila Prabhupada, he is the samsthapaka acharya of our sampradaya. For others, they can say whatever they like. There is a definition for samsthapaka-acharya and it is Srila Prabhupada who perfectly matches this definition. For more details, read this:

 

Srila Prabhupada - Founder-Acharya of the Golden Age

http://www.indiadivine.com/bhaktivedanta-swami-prabhupada1.htm

 

Do you honestly believe that Srila Prabhupada established the Gaudiya siddhanta?

The samsthapaka-acharya does not establish the siddhanta. Siddhanta is eternal, just as Krishna is eternal.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

However, we will always be pushed outside the door by bigoted small-minded persons such as yourself who are unwilling to look beyond material characteristics.

Anyone who disagrees with their philosophy and their claims that Prabhupada had a secret unrecorded conversation wherein he said homosexualmarriage is alright is a small-minded bigot.

 

It has been shown that their paper is full of lies without knowledge of language, culture or principles of religion. Why should we have to agree with it? It is posted publicly, so in the same manner we will denounce such distortions publicly. When you try to associate the name of my spiritual master with a sinful activity which he condemned, then I will speak up against it. If that makes me a close-minded bigot, a homophobe, or anything else, fine with me. It is the duty of the disciple to defend the name of his guru.

[atma]

Originally posted by jndas:

He is my samsthapaka-acharya, and anyone that is his disciple, as well as anyone associated with ISKCON as well. I don't know which line you are following, so he may not be your samsthapaka-acharya. But for his disciples, he insisted, "I am the founder-acharya." Founder-acharya is a technical word that has a definition, it does not refer to a "founder" and an "acharya", but to the compound "samsthapaka-acharya". Srila Prabhupada insisted that this title be printed on every official ISKCON literature along with his name. When the word ISKCON is printed, it must be followed by "Founder-Acharya A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada". For those who follow Srila Prabhupada, he is the samsthapaka acharya of our sampradaya. For others, they can say whatever they like. There is a definition for samsthapaka-acharya and it is Srila Prabhupada who perfectly matches this definition. For more details, read this:

 

Srila Prabhupada - Founder-Acharya of the Golden Age

http://www.indiadivine.com/bhaktivedanta-swami-prabhupada1.htm

 

The samsthapaka-acharya does not establish the siddhanta. Siddhanta is eternal, just as Krishna is eternal.

 

 

Agree 100 % with JNdas in this matter.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

[Note: The other thread is getting too long, so I thought I would start a fresh one.]

 

This discussion seems to keep going around in circles. Just to make things clear, I am not against anyone for their weaknesses. What am I against?

 

1) Claiming a vice to be a virtue, and then trying to propagate it as harmonious and beneficial to Sri Chaitanya's path of pure devotion.

 

2) Claiming our spiritual master, Sri A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, in a secret unrecorded conversation, authorized some disciples to accept homosexual marriages. This is a great insult and offense to Srila Prabhupada. His position on this matter is not a secret. It is clearly established in his books, letters and conversations. I am sure some here would be willing to call him homophobic for his views as well.

 

3) Misrepresenting the Vedic teachings through various deceptive means to propagate that homosexuality was commonly accepted in ancient India. For example, they claim the word "napumsaka" means "homosexual" when in reality it does not mean anything even remotely similar. Even today this word is still in use in nearly all Indic languages, and it refers to one who is born with no sexual organs, it indicates one who has a physical deformaty.

 

4) That in the Srimad Bhagavatam, the word "nartaka" refers to homosexuals. The word is used throughout the Puranas to refer to "dancers". Anyone with the slightest knowledge of sanskrit understands this. Any claim that this word refers to homosexuals is an intentional distortion.

 

The real guru? Are you insinuating that Prabhupada is the only guru...

Srila Prabhupada is the "real guru", or sad-guru in sanskrit. Anyone who follows him and represents him perfectly is also a guru. But if someone claims to be his disciple, and at the same time propagates teachings contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's, that person is a cheater or bogus guru. I am not accusing anyone in particular. This is a simple principle.

 

Only 24 years has passed since Srila Prabhupada was personally present on this planet. He wanted his instructions to be the law books of man kind for the next 10,000 years. He didn't want Swami Tom, Swami Dick and Swami Harry coming along to change his instructions 24 years after he left.

 

Perhaps someone's guru has taught something different than Prabhupada. As a disciple it is their duty to accept and follow it. But you should not expect me or anyone else who is following Srila Prabhupada to accept your guru's statements. We are not his disciple. We are free to reject whatever he says in contradiction to Srila Prabhupada, and in fact it is our duty to reject it.

 

Srila Prabhupada is our samsthapaka-acharya. It is the duty of the samsthapaka-acharya to establish the rules, regulations and siddhanta of a sampradaya. He has the right and obligation to adjust external principles to suit time, place and circumstance. Others are only acharya in as much as they follow his standard. Let's not have another Kirtanananda, who claimed he was the "samsthapaka-acharya of New Vrindavana". There are no two samsthapaka-acharyas. The founder-acharya is one, and for our line it is Srila Prabhupada. Others who think they can adjust the teachings of the samsthapaka-acharya are nothing but pretenders; their authority is lost.

 

Prabhupada: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupada said." They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that.

Regarding the sinfulness of homosex:

 

Why imply that they are inherently sinful because they are gay?

We are not speaking about any particular individual. We are speaking in regards to homosexual activities in general. They are sinful, and that is clearly what Prabhupada said. Some people want us to believe Srila Prabhupada was fallible and that his views were due to his imperfect knowledge and faulty senses. This is yet another offense to the spiritual master, who is sarva-jna and akshara.

 

As far as the scriptures own view, let us look at a verse quoted in the GALVA article (which was intentionally mistranslated):

 

"Those foolish men of evil conduct who engage in all forms of intercourse, taking advantage of improper wombs (viyoni), and forcing themselves upon other men (pumsaka), are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52)

 

First, this confirms that the eunuch is born without a sexual organ of any type. It is not just a matter of sexual preference. Due to their evil conduct, they are born as eunuchs in their next life with a physical deformaty. What is that evil conduct that brings them this fate? The correct translation of viyoni is "without a female reproductive organ". So this verse actually reads:

 

"Foolish and evil men engage in all forms of sexual intercourse without a female womb, forcing themselves upon other men."

 

Their evil activity is that they are homosexual, and because of engaging in such a sinful activity they are born in the next life without their sexual organ, as a eunuch. By living as a homosexual in the present life, one becomes a eunuch (not homosexual) in the next life. This is the result of that sinful activity.

 

The shastra's statement is clear. Those who don't want to accept this try to mistranslate texts of scripture to suit their own mental concotion.

 

We are all born subjected to the polution of our karma-vasanas, the residual influences of our previous activities (which are generally sinful). Some are attracted to homosexuality, some are attracted to heterosexualty, some are attracted to meat eating, and some are attracted to intoxication. Spiritual life is meant to become free from these karma-vasanas, to purify ourselves, not to accept this polution as natural and continue on our downward path.

 

Simply because something is coming from birth does not justify its acceptance. What ever comes from our present birth is due to the karma-vasanas. We have committed sinful activity in the previous life and that attachment continues to the present. Become free from that contamination.

 

Someone is born with a taste for meat. We do not accept it as fine. We tell him to give it up by taking shelter of the Lord's holy name.

 

Someone else is born with an attraction to women. We do not accept it and say it is fine. We tell himto purify himself by chanting, and give up that sinful attachment.

 

Homosexuality is no different. It is due to one's karma-vasanas. We must become purified from it, not accept it as fine.

 

Somethings in spiritual life are difficult. No one says it will be a walk in the park. You must be ready to sacrifice, otherwise there will be no fruit to one's sadhana.

 

[Sirona]

Correct me, but I always thought that the sign of bhakti is that a servant of Our Sweet Lord Krishna is patient and understanding towards all people and has no enemy.

I have tried very hard to see Prabhupad as what you see in him, but he is just a man with a stone-cold heart and you as his disciples do exactly what he did: spread hatred. Shame on you.

Sexually inverted people have no place in your "Vedic" society? You make me laugh. They can be found in Hindu society as well as in any other society. And they are persecuted like in any other socierty, may it be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or other, although they do not harm anyone. And why? Because they remember the so-called men (especially men) of another, more gentle and less violent side of their personality "normal" men have to fight against to keep up the whole business of hatred, domination, violence and patriarchy also called "social order".

Isn't it true that according to the Mahabharata in his 13th year of exile Arjuna served the prinesses at the court as a dancer, wearing dresses and long hair?

Isn't it true that Shri Chaitanya often wore women's dresses to enjoy bhakti in the role os Srimati Radharani?

And, gentlemen, if you hate homosexuals so much, did you never ask yourselves why you are attracted by God in a form of a graceful young man wearing eyeliner and jewellery?

His Name is Lord Krishna.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

From your writings you seem to have many misconceptions about the Vedic teachings. Your identifying with the externals of eyeliner and other such things are very childish arguments.

 

Sexually inverted people have no place in your "Vedic" society? You make me laugh.

Homosexuals have the same position as hunters, prostitute, etc. Their activities are sinful, and are not sanctioned by the scriptures - as has been shown above. This is not a popular view, but it is the factual view of the Vedic texts.

 

And, gentlemen, if you hate homosexuals so much...

This is a straw man argument. No one here has said they hate homosexuals. We are against the distortion of the Vedic teachings. To claim that homosexuality was accepted in Vedic culture is a lie. It was considered sinful.

 

...if you hate homosexuals so much, did you never ask yourselves why you are attracted by God in a form of a graceful young man wearing eyeliner and jewellery?

His Name is Lord Krishna.

Those who judge Krishna materially will never know who he is:

 

avajananti mam mudha

manushim tanum ashritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-maheshvara

 

They fail to understand Krishna's param-bhavam and his position as maheshvara. Other's who try to imitate him externally and think they are representing him by make-up and jewelery are foolish.

 

Isn't it true that according to the Mahabharata in his 13th year of exile Arjuna served the prinesses at the court as a dancer, wearing dresses and long hair?

In the GLAVA article the author cites the example of Arjuna who lived as a eunuch for one year. We should note that Arjuna received the "benediction" or "curse" (whichever way we want to read the story) that his body would physically change to that of a eunuch so that he would not be noticed during the last year of his vana-vasa. Otherwise Arjuna was so famous that whereever he went everyone knew him by appearance alone, and if he had been seen he would have to continue his stay in the forest. Arjuna's body was physically changed by higher powers so that he could remain disguised for the last year of his exile. Arjuna was not a homosexual, as these people want us to believe. Arjuna could not have remained hidden simply by changing his sexual preference, or by putting on the wig of a women. His entire body was physically changed; he factually became a eunuch.

 

I think it is relevant to note the references cited by the author of the article in regards to Mahabharata. He takes his authority from Kamala Subrahmaniam's "Mahabharata" which is simply a novelized form of the stories found in Mahabharata, full with materialistic distortions. In addition to this, he relies on Krishna Dharma's summary of Mahabharata, which is also a novelized version of an English translation of Mahabharata. Without having even referred to the actual Mahabharata, the author wants us to accept that his statements properly reflect the descriptions of the Vedic times described in the Mahabharata. Having read the Mahabharata, I for one will not accept such distortions silently.

 

Again, the eunuch described in the Puranas is someone born without any sexual organ. It does not refer to a homosexual. Homosexuals are described in this verse:

 

"Foolish and evil men engage in all forms of sexual intercourse without a female womb, forcing themselves upon other men, and are born again without their sexual organs as neuters."

Mahabharata 13.145.52

Again, in summary, no one is against homosexuals chanting, coming to temples, etc., just as we are not against promiscuous heterosexuals from coming to our temples and engaging in devotional service. We are against people distorting the Vedic teachings and claiming Homosexuality is harmonious with Vaishnavsim, and that it is in fact a supperior form of vaishnavism. Such distortions are rubbish.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Gauracandra]

However, we will always be pushed outside the door by bigoted small-minded persons such as yourself who are unwilling to look beyond material characteristics.

Now I'm a 'small minded bigot' because I do not agree with you guys? Believe me, I was very supportive at the beginning of this discussion several days ago. But watching your side I started to understand what was really happening.

 

First it should be noted that I don't care what you do or don't do in your bedroom. But how can I 'look beyond' your material characteristics when they are shoved in my face?

 

There was a lie told on Galva. It was localized. Then the lie was spread on Chakra (by Madhusudhani Radha and her acolytes) and it spread among the world Vaisnava community. This lie was shoved in our face. What we are doing here is disproving these lies.

 

But now you are starting to develop this myth of victimhood: " we will always be pushed outside the door..." Nonsense. The door is always open to everyone. There are people who are homosexual who serve and are accepted. They don't flaunt their homosexuality. But they are entirely welcomed. And this was the point. There is no special status for being homosexual.

 

Below I am attaching a posting I made several months back. In it you will see the diversity we have in Iskcon. There is no one excluding homosexuals. There is no one pushing them out the door. But we also shouldn't set aside a special 'homosexual status' reserved just for them. Why should a homosexual be better than an African tribal with a plate in his lip? Why should a homosexual be better than a homeless man with torn jeans? They shouldn't. The facilities are all there. No one is excluding anyone. We all can come together, chant, dance, read transcendental literatures. We can serve and associate. NO ONE is being 'pushed out the door'.

 

Gauracandra

 

I started thinking about this some more and had a wonderful realization. This is in relation to the diversity in Iskcon. Now, I can only speak in regards to my local temple, but I started to visualize all of the people who attend every week and I honestly can't think of a more diverse congregation.

We have of course the most commited individuals who are the brahmacharis and brahmacharinis wearing dhotis and saris and who attend all the worship services in the morning. Then of course we have the community devotees who work outside (such as myself). In terms of age, we have young kids running around, and old men. Racially we have blacks, whites, asian (chinese, japanese, and philipino), hispanics, and Indians. We have a parapelegic (paralized from the neck down who is wheeled in front of the deities), we have some local homeless man who has a set of japa mala. He keeps to himself, chants, and then comes for the sunday feast. Every few months there is a really tall african tribal who comes. He is like 6ft 5 inches tall, wears traditional african garb, holds a sort of "danda" walking stick, and has those african plates in his lip. I'm not kidding, he actually has a plate in his lip, and in his ears. But he comes and pays respect to the deities. We have a midget, I swear to God, wearing tilak and dhoti (he's a westerner) who dances in the temple. We have many Indian engineers whoe are very conservative and respectful. They mostly stand with folded hands paying respects to the deities. We have those who are wealthy and those who are poor, and just a large group of middle class working westerners who come. We have one lady who is extremely rich who drives around in a Jaguar. We also have some neighborhood guy who has this big Elvis style hair and sideburns. He never comes to the temple, but loves the sunday feasts. We have Russians, and Mexicans, and an Australian. And I could go on and on. I honestly can't think of any church, temple, synagogue or mosque that I have ever been to having such a wide range of completely different people. But they have all come together under the banner of Sri Caitanya to engage in Hari Kirtana. Just thinking about it started to make me laugh.

 

All glories to Sri Krsna Caitanya. Haribol.

 

Gauracandra

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 09-05-2001).]

[kailasa]

>Srila Prabhupada did this less than 30 years after the passing of his Prabhupada, could the times have changed that much in 28 short years?

 

He has arrived on west and has established all finally. By the comments SP has protected the books previous acariya and He has presented all from the point of view vipralambha, that there is a final top. He completely has presented Pancatattva and practically has established her Supreme rule(situation). SBST has told - "the time will come and he will make ALL". And has taken place. ISKCON has printed the books, has opened temples worldwide, in the books SP the race and all intermediate rules(situations) of philosophy is established. As ISKCON works in real time, therefore in real time there come reactions, as they come because in ISKCON many people. There is nobody more dearly than first diciples SP what these people sibiliant from different directions understand in love? That they have made except for as would creep out of the holes what also to prevent on a road? SP would give by him a few diciples that they studied preach I can on this theme to write much, but let everyone serve who as can. Êesi this embodiment of pride, therefore if who that will be too wide to open a mouth, he risks that Krisna will put there hand, let will try after that to repeat all that they there speak.

 

This not spiritually. Unfortunate horse.

[animesh]

Sirona ji,

You have talked about Arjun. He became eunuch because of curse from Urvashi. He did not become homosexual.

 

There are many Hindu scriptures which I have not read. So, I am not in a position to say if homosexuals are glorified or condemned in these scriptures. But, there is a difference between hating them and saying that they are condemned by scriptures. If scriptures say that they are to be condemned and somebody wants to glorify them, then he has got every right to do so, but he should not say that he has got sanction from scriptures. If scriptures do not condemn them and some body wants to condemn, then he also should not say that he has got backing of scriptures.

 

As an example, I can not start a sentence with "Einstein said that..." and then say something which was opposed by Einstein.

[leyh]

Originally posted by Sirona:

Correct me, but I always thought that the sign of bhakti is that a servant of Our Sweet Lord Krishna is patient and understanding towards all people and has no enemy.

I have tried very hard to see Prabhupad as what you see in him, but he is just a man with a stone-cold heart and you as his disciples do exactly what he did: spread hatred. Shame on you.

Sexually inverted people have no place in your "Vedic" society? You make me laugh. They can be found in Hindu society as well as in any other society. And they are persecuted like in any other socierty, may it be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or other, although they do not harm anyone. And why? Because they remember the so-called men (especially men) of another, more gentle and less violent side of their personality "normal" men have to fight against to keep up the whole business of hatred, domination, violence and patriarchy also called "social order".

Isn't it true that according to the Mahabharata in his 13th year of exile Arjuna served the prinesses at the court as a dancer, wearing dresses and long hair?

Isn't it true that Shri Chaitanya often wore women's dresses to enjoy bhakti in the role os Srimati Radharani?

And, gentlemen, if you hate homosexuals so much, did you never ask yourselves why you are attracted by God in a form of a graceful young man wearing eyeliner and jewellery?

His Name is Lord Krishna.

Dear Sirona:

If Srila Prabhupada had a stone cold heart, he would have stayed in India. Instead, he risked his very life to come to The United States of America to preach the message of Krsna Consciousness to the whole human society.Srila Prabhupada spent so much time and energy translating and writing books to benefit others.He was also a compassionate globe-trotter. He travelled all over the world conversing and preaching to so many people from different walks of life. He lovingly chastised his disciples when there were mistakes and warmly glorified when theere was devotion.He dedicated so much of his life to Krsna and humanity...you insult the memory of such a great soul by defaming his mission and accusing him of spreading hate when all he ever wanted to do was to spread love of Godhead and all living entities.I sincerely request you to carefully study the life, teachings and mission of Srila Prabhupada.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-05-2001).]

[kailasa]

There come to Russia at us so much girl and you will forget all this tama guna, and then and girl will forget. Joke, one girl you long will not forget - wife.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

The only thing wrong with being a gay person is that you draw a bunch of heterosexual (mentally, although they're probably not getting much action in real life, and not necessarily because of vows of celibacy) men who want to verbally boot-kick those who are different.

 

This topic came up on vnn a year ago, with BB and MC jumping in with the same arguments. I offer the same response; it's Mahaprabhu's vast loving network that is designed to insure that as many souls as are willing to take up the mercy get to receive it. What is with some of you men playing gatekeepers, deciding who gets the mercy of god and who doesn't, instead of following in the footsteps of the Lord Chaitanya; "Here is the Mercy, please just take it!"

[Guest guest]

If you would put your bong down for a few days and sober up BV, then perhaps you could read this thread properly.

 

No one is stopping anyone from receiving Mahaprabhu's mercy. The criticism is about those who want to change the siddhanta to justify their anarthas. Kinda like your boyfriend who lost his head.