JRdd Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Hmm, Alf--what do you think? True, or false? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Thanks for the bon voyage stoneheart. JR,I guess true, but the juries still out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Originally posted by Maitreya: This topic is really close to the heart of the two threads on homosexuality which are at about ten pages. It was at the bottom of the page and about to slip out of sight.I think it is very important and thank Krishnacandra for raising it. What is an innovation or adjustment, and what is a deviation?How are the differences to be recognized? Gotta say it, MC. You are more intrigued with the homosexual issue than anyone else, surely more than any admitted gays or lesbians. Just imagine if the topic was on your mind and you died suddenly; you might take birth in a female body while still identifying yourself as primarily a male...and then you'd either have to come out as a lesbian, marry a man but fated for a disasterous marriage because your male-soul identification would turn you off to romance with a man, or join a monestary/nunnery/brahmacarini ashram and take a life long vow of celibacy. You never know... [This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 09-14-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Letter to: Yadunandana -- Perth, Australia 14 May, 1975 75-05-14 Dallas My dear Yadunandan, Please accept my blessings. I have just been informed by my servant, Srutakirti, that the young children, under twelve, are not allowed to use their japa beads while chanting. This policy is not good. Why this change has been made? I never said they should not use their beads. That is our business. They must be taught how to respect their beads. How they can learn unless they use them? That is the trouble with you westerners, always changing. No changes should be made without first consulting with my GBC representative. So, the children should immediately be allowed to chant on their japa beads. I hope this meets you in good health. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami ACBS/sda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 The topic is innovation deviations changes etc.Bhaktyavasya.Do you have anything to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Originally posted by JRdd:This story of Aniruddha brought tears to my eyes. I know he was always dear to Srila Prabhupada, who is the most loving and all-embracing father of us all. I saw Aniruddha when down in Berkeley temple after Rathayatra. He looked the same, youthful, Stone: I hear the same thing--that he looks as though he hasn't aged at all. Darn him to heck for not having the decency to get old! JR: and better still he was so fired up about this renaissance many of us feel converging {I think someone put it like we have been put on a shelf for safekeeping and now the time is ripe for sharing what we have) Stone: I've had a similar idea for the past few years--that many of us geezers, as we move toward the next stage of our lives (many of us are in our 50's), will look for opportunities for increasing our preaching. Ontop of that, we'll bring to the table maturity, lots of experience with the world, as well as all the skills we've picked up in our professional lives. I have serious doubts, though, about ISKCON's ability to accomodate us (I don't mean put us up, but more like put up with us). While I lived in San Diego, I had great facility for service, including giving regular classes. Because I've been able to keep my troublemaking tendency in check, the devotees graciosly tolerated me and appreciated what I had to offer. However, when I asked ISKCON leaders (GBC members, sannyasis, temple presidents) what they had in mind as a future for me, they invariably said something like "You seem to be doing fine as you are--nice example of responsible householder, kids grew up okay, still married after almost 30 years, etc." In other words, they had no vision and were unable to show how or where I might fit in ISKCON. And they liked having me around so they could introduce me as a "senior Prabhupada disciple," local college profeesor, and stuff like that. I know of many other older devotees who have had similar experience. I've actually gotten more encouragement for actually moving toward a life of preaching from Tripurari Maharaj and my old, dear friend and vartmapradarshaka-guru Turiya das and his wife Shaktimati, who live on Maui. JR: and he gave me his email address and I was wondering if you have access to it, prabhu, as I have yet to find it in my papper piles. He was most encouraging. It would be nice if he came to the cyberspace and shared his blissful and humble self with us. Stone: Unfortunately, Idon't have anemail address for Aniruddha. If you find it, pleasse send it to me. Last I heard he is in Honolulu again. Don't know if that's still so. And thank you for this reassuring tale--and your beautiful commentary--which illustrates the love which is the source of such causeless mercy from our wonderful acharyas and Sri Mahaprabhu Himself. Stone: It was my great pleasure. I've told that story many times--jeez, I had a realization right there in Honolulu International Airport. Srila Prabhupada is indeed the genuine article (and not in any exclusive sense--I have great respect for and owe a debt to Srila Sridhar Maharaj and B. P. Puri Maharaj, neither of whose personal association I was fortunate enough to get. I also have great respect for many others, as well.) and having a moment of his association (I got a little more than that) is the greatest fortune a lost soul could imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanpeter Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Stone: I've had a similar idea for the past few years--that many of us geezers, as we move toward the next stage of our lives (many of us are in our 50's), will look for opportunities for increasing our preaching. Ontop of that, we'll bring to the table maturity, lots of experience with the world, as well as all the skills we've picked up in our professional lives. I have serious doubts, though, about ISKCON's ability to accomodate us (I don't mean put us up, but more like put up with us). While I lived in San Diego, I had great facility for service, including giving regular classes. Because I've been able to keep my troublemaking tendency in check, the devotees graciosly tolerated me and appreciated what I had to offer. However, when I asked ISKCON leaders (GBC members, sannyasis, temple presidents) what they had in mind as a future for me, they invariably said something like "You seem to be doing fine as you are--nice example of responsible householder, kids grew up okay, still married after almost 30 years, etc." In other words, they had no vision and were unable to show how or where I might fit in ISKCON. And they liked having me around so they could introduce me as a "senior Prabhupada disciple," local college profeesor, and stuff like that. I know of many other older devotees who have had similar experience. I've actually gotten more encouragement for actually moving toward a life of preaching from Tripurari Maharaj and my old, dear friend and vartmapradarshaka-guru Turiya das and his wife Shaktimati, who live on Maui. I, too, have thought deeply about these points. As long as ISKCON can use us to bolster or authenticate their leadership and present policies, we're welcome. However, appreciating us as individuals, able to offer uniquely valuable contributions, is for the most part impossible within the organization as a whole. As those who were actually present with Srila Prabhupada, we are seen to be a potential threat to those who would misrepresent his intentions for their own purposes. Here in ISKCON Toronto I see how my realizations and experience are needed, but because I could never fit in `politically`, my personal input at every level is subtly discouraged. Don't fret, prabhu. We'll soon be back to serve Mahaprabu in new impoved bodies! Watch out ISKCON!!! Peter/valaya ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRdd Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Stone: I've had a similar idea for the past few years--that many of us geezers, as we move toward the next stage of our lives (many of us are in our 50's), will look for opportunities for increasing our preaching. On top of that, we'll bring to the table maturity, lots of experience with the world, as well as all the skills we've picked up in our professional lives. I have serious doubts, though, about ISKCON's ability to accomodate us (I don't mean put us up, but more like put up with us). While I lived in San Diego, I had great facility for service, including giving regular classes. Because I've been able to keep my troublemaking tendency in check, the devotees graciosly tolerated me and appreciated what I had to offer. However, when I asked ISKCON leaders (GBC members, sannyasis, temple presidents) what they had in mind as a future for me, they invariably said something like "You seem to be doing fine as you are--nice example of responsible householder, kids grew up okay, still married after almost 30 years, etc." In other words, they had no vision and were unable to show how or where I might fit in ISKCON. And they liked having me around so they could introduce me as a "senior Prabhupada disciple," local college profeesor, and stuff like that. I know of many other older devotees who have had similar experience. I've actually gotten more encouragement for actually moving toward a life of preaching from Tripurari Maharaj and my old, dear friend and vartmapradarshaka-guru Turiya das and his wife Shaktimati, who live on Maui. Also to Peter/Valaya, whose post follows this one: Waht about running parallel, just carrying on the instructions of our acaryas withOUT those buildings? Srila Prahbupada came with out knowing anyone, and was happy when one came. Then another came. And gradually it grew into a group of ten or so--and these few were sent here and there to start siimilar groups, and from there...well, we all know about the Hare Krsna Explosion. I can't do this alone. I know this about myself. Maybe that's an excuse. Maybe I really can. But to me it seems like I can't. Especially as a woman I don't feel I can do this. Can't open up my beautiful little temple to the unknown public. I just can't. All I can do is try to align msyelf with others as much as possible--thank Krsna for the Innernet and the great association I get through this pathway--also thank Krsna for the good devotees down in Berkeley, whose efforts make it still possible to attend a place of grand Deity worship and festivals. But physically it is hard to make it down there, for me, it's a long long trip that wreaks favoc on my fragile system; still haven't recovered from last time quite honestly. I don't know if Krsna wants me wrecking my body to go to the temple. I only hope that if devotees do start heading for the hills, they will head this way. And help me turn Mt Shasta into Mt Shastra. I don't WANT to have to wait for another body, Peter. My suffering is nothing to the suffering of the crores of people on this planet who know nothing about a loving God. I wish there was more we could start doing NOW. If someone sees through the false ego stopping me, please give me some feedback and ideas. To Stone: Yes I think it was Honolulu he mentioned. When I get to that paper pile I will let you know. ys, JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitanyachandra Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Innovation is the work for mahajnanis (MJ)and mahapurusha's (MP). [This message has been edited by Caitanyachandra (edited 09-15-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Here are some related quotes about innovation that might be interesting to discuss. In 1974 without his knowledge Ramesvara wrote to Prabhupda requesting that he give Tripurari Das brahmachari sannyasa. Prabhupada replied: "If he takes sannyasa he may not be able to constantly assume so many disguises in public and employ so many tricks for selling books to persons, as it is not in accord with some of the etiquette for sannyasa. You write this recommendation is your own idea and that he himself is perfectly happy heading up a traveling party of book distributers. So let him go on as he is doing; Krsna is giving him all facility and without question he is doing more than any sannyasi." One year later he gave Tripurai Swami sannyasa anyway, and then wrote about changing one's dress for sankirtana In Cc thus: Following Särvabhauma Bhaööäcärya's instructions, the King had given up his royal dress. He now entered the garden in the dress of a Vaiñëava. PURPORT Sometimes members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness-especially in the Western countries-find it difficult to approach people to distribute books because people are unfamiliar with the traditional saffron robes of the devotees. The devotees have therefore inquired whether they can wear European and American dress before the general public. From the instructions given to King Pratäparudra by Särvabhauma Bhaööäcärya, we can understand that we may change our dress in any way to facilitate our service. When our members change their dress to meet the public or to introduce our books, they are not breaking the devotional principles. The real principle is to spread this Kåñëa consciousness movement, and if one has to change into regular Western dress for this purpose, there should be no objection. Madhya 14.6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Dear Valaya, I mentioned something about the contents of these two letters on the other thread and you raised a strong but vague objection of some sort. I don't have Veda base so I asked a friend to try to find these letters in question. Letters that I had some recolection of but had not read in more than 20 years. Now that we have the letters I am curious to know what your objection was about. BDas Sydney 14 February, 1973 73-02-14 My Dear Rupanuga, Regarding our sankirtana party members dressing up as hippies in order to increase book distribution this is not a very good plan. I am instructing Bali Mardan Maharaja that this should be stopped, that we should not give anyone cause to call us hippies, but the devotees can dress up in respectable clothes like ladies and gentlemen in order to distribute my literatures under special circumstances, but even this program should not become widespread. It should only go on under the supervision of Bali Mardan Goswami and Karandhara das. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Bombay 6 October, 1973 73-10-06 Los Angeles My dear Karandhara, Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated September 26th, 1973, and I have noted the contents carefully. Yes, you can go on with your book distribution as you were doing before, there is not any harm. I thought that our men were becoming like hippies, but now I understand from you that that is not the case. So I have no objection. Our main business is to distribute books, and from the reports I am receiving from all over the world, the progress is very encouraging. So far as the woman distributers who have left New York and Boston Temples and have gone to New Vrindaban, they should return immediately and resume their original service. In Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Movement, everyone is preacher, whether man or woman it doesn't matter. I do not know why Kirtanananda Maharaja is encouraging our woman devotees not to go out on Sankirtana for book distribution. Everyone should go out. You have not replied to my recent letter about transferring some Krsna books. Now you may keep ready eight Krsna books and I shall advise you where to send them. Hanuman Goswami has written me one letter and requested me to send a copy of my reply to you for forwarding it to him. Please find the copy enclosed and forward it on. I hope this meets you well. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami ACBS:tkg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Here is some more info to consider. Bhürijana: Would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don’t want to be independent. Prabhup¢da: Why you are inclined to follow Siddha-svarüpa, your wife and you. What is your special attraction? Bhürijana: (indistinct) ...we couldn’t always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction. Prabhup¢da: But first of all (indistinct) you what is the special attraction? Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous. What do you find ambiguous, what do you find clear? What is that? Bhürijana: I think the part I found clear, the more introspective points about humility, and changing one’s desires... Prabhup¢da: Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru? That is not... Bhürijana: No, that is not humility. Prabhup¢da: I’m asking you what is the special attraction? You say... Your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous? Bhürijana: You mean what is ambiguous and... (indistinct) what is ambiguous or what... Prabhup¢da: No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear? Bhürijana: The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to... Prabhup¢da: Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master’s instruction, you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say that... Your wife says that what Siddha-svarüpa says it is very clear and and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear what is not clear? Bhürijana: He says chant Hare K§øëa. Prabhup¢da: So who says that you don’t chant? Bhürijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn’t so much on the chanting even though everyone says harer n¢ma harer n¢ma harer n¢ma eva kevalam [Adi 17.21], everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ¢rati in the evening and half hour ¢rati in the morning. Prabhup¢da: So what do you want more? What is your program? 24 hours? Bhürijana: I like more kÆrtana than that. Prabhup¢da: So you don’t like to sell books. Bhürijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean I think I would like to. Prabhup¢da: So what is difference? Bhürijana: Between selling books and kÆrtana? Prabhup¢da: No no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? When you point out that this is the point, we differ. What is that point? Bhürijana: Well maybe the point about more kÆrtana or less kÆrtana. Prabhup¢da: So if you chant more, they’re objecting? Bhürijana: No. Prabhup¢da: Then where is the difference? Has anyone objected (if you) chant more? Bhürijana: No. Prabhup¢da: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference? Bhürijana: I think there’s no point of difference. Prabhup¢da: Then why do you say we find these instructions more clear? Puøöa K§øëa: You say that there’s no point of difference, but then you say that his instruction is more clear. There’s some contradiction. Bhürijana: It’s just the emphasis that was given to hari... to chanting. For myself, I know I was off track and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity toward your disciples and thinking that they..., that by their distributing books they were making people angry at K§øëa and... Prabhup¢da: That is real point. That is real point. Bhürijana: That’s what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell... They’d yell at me, “What have you done to K§øëa?” Some Indians used to say that. People we’d meet, they’d tell us they see the Hare K§øëa devotees and they hate K§øëa. I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and... Prabhup¢da: He said that “We hate K§øëa"? Bhürijana: No no. He said that, “Your members of the Hare K§øëa, they’re making people in Australia hate K§øëa. They make people inimical.” Making people inimical to K§øëa. Puøöa K§øëa: They feel threatened simply that we’re preaching something that will discourage their sinful way of life. Simply they feel threatened. Not they’re hating. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people they have a bad impression of K§øëa. Bhürijana: And also because... Prabhup¢da: Because we are selling books. Puøöa K§øëa: Because we’re selling books. Bhürijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking..., how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, “Please give me a donation.” So they give him a donation. “No, you must give more,” and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money making movement. Puøöa K§øëa: We’re selling one half a million large size books each year. Harisauri: The thing is that the materialists will always find that. They see the devotees and we say that we renounce everything, but they don’t understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to K§øëa. So when... Just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn’t put anything that you said. They simply put “His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce.” So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people. Prabhup¢da: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making K§øëa unpopular? Bhürijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman I think. Prabhup¢da: But selling book, K§øëa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean? Bhürijana: Automatically, no. Prabhup¢da: When you say that they’re making enemies because they’re pushing this, what is wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books. Bhürijana: Actually I’ve never really tried. Prabhup¢da: Eh? Bhürijana: I’ve never really attempted very much. Prabhup¢da: Those who are selling books you think of them they’re not very advanced. Bhürijana: I don’t think they can do it for very long. Prabhup¢da: Eh? Bhürijana: I don’t think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced. Prabhup¢da: But actually they’re doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long? Hari-sauri: No, he’s saying that if they weren’t..., that they must be advanced actually if you look at it in the proper perspective. The ones that are continually distributing, they, they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time. Bhürijana: When people... Often used to make me angry when people would collect money for..., using lying terms and say that they’re collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they’d collect money like that but it wasn’t very straight forward. Puøöa K§øëa: Prabhup¢da has many times given the instruction to the devotees that they should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. [break] ...wanting this knowledge. Bhürijana: But they... [break] ...so much (indistinct) is collecting, not distributing books. Puøöa K§øëa: No, but the point is that Prabhup¢da’s instruction is there. Bhürijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhup¢da also said “by hook or by crook.” Puøöa K§øëa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity. Prabhup¢da: Just like our... What is his name? Hari-sauri: Tripur¢ri? (laughter) Prabhup¢da: Some lady inquired, “Is there any instruction about the power shortage?” “Oh, yes.” (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said, “There is nothing about power.” So suppose Tripur¢ri has sold one book. The lady inquired, “Is there any basic instruction about power shortage?” And he said, “Yes.” So you think it is wrong. That is your version. Bhürijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad. Prabhup¢da: But a devotee’s view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she’ll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her. Somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she’ll read and she’ll benefit. But you people, you think that why we should sell like that, that, “Yes, there is some solution of power shortage.” Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are sometimes the father’s child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine, and promises, “You take the medicine. I’ll give you this cake.” The purpose is not to give the cake actually. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that “If you take the medicine I’ll give you the cake.” But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him. “If you take the medicine and I’ll give you cake.” So is the father wrong or right? Bhürijana: No. Prabhup¢da: Similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person it is good for him. Don’t take how he is selling, but he’s giving the book to that person and he’s paying something and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They’ll see, “Why the father has spoken lie to his son. He’s not a good father.” They’ll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that. That “If you take the medicine I’ll give you cake.” So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand this thing, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiøöhira Mah¢r¢ja. He was asked by K§øëa that “You speak lie to Dron¢c¢rya that ‘Your son is dead.’ ” Yudhiøöhira Mah¢r¢ja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than K§øëa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Arjuna. Arjuna was arguing with K§øëa that this killing of my relatives, it is horrible, abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king. Did he not say? That is ordinary man’s argument. But as Yudhiøöhira Mah¢r¢ja refused to speak lie, [break] Arjuna in spite of his conviction that it is sinful to kill my relatives, he still agreed to kill. Why? Bhürijana: That is supreme moral, K§øëa’s desire. Prabhup¢da: What K§øëa desires, if one dies, he’s above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that our spiritual master wants to preach K§øëa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means, that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, “Oh, they’re taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I’m big moralist. I’m bigger than him.” Bhürijana: I don’t think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves. Prabhup¢da: No, I think that.. I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they’re not selling books. Bhürijana: Some I think. I think some. Prabhup¢da: But not... Bhürijana: Comparable amount. Prabhup¢da: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. And those who are big moralists, they could not. Puøöa K§øëa: They’re also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha-svarüp¢nanda. Then if they like they can buy one of Prabhup¢da’s books. Prabhup¢da’s book comes second. Prabhup¢da: Sometimes I’ve heard so many things. Bhürijana: But they give those away for free. I mean just in the sense that someone maybe doesn’t want to purchase anything. So they give him something for free about K§øëa. Puøöa K§øëa: First they do that. Bhürijana: Only because it’s free. Not that a... As far as I know. Prabhup¢da: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free then why they will purchase? Bhürijana: If we can become K§øëa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That’s what I was thinking a while ago. Prabhup¢da: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. They must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must. Bhürijana: ÇrÆla Prabhup¢da, but I think the thing I understand least, is that if they are not doing what you want... I mean... I’m sitting before you now and you’re telling me and I’m listening, and you are my spiritual master. I must accept. Prabhup¢da: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies. That is... Because as soon as he takes the medicine he’ll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a K§øëa literature. Doesn’t matter what is the means. Because he has taken one K§øëa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. Bhürijana: How about just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line too. Not telling the truth. And that wasn’t very long ago. Hari-sauri: Sometimes the devotees are just distributing incense. Hari-sauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don’t distribute books. Puøöa K§øëa: Maybe they have to pay off a loan on the temple. All the devotees are well aware that Prabhup¢da’s books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is very (indistinct) It’s not a consciousness of giving. Hari-sauri: Prabhup¢da’s point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master’s instructions, you’ll fail to follow the instructions. Prabhup¢da: No the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don’t think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is sell books. Bhürijana: I understand. In other words if you think they’re doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing... But do it. Make sure you do it, but do it without the wrong thing. Prabhup¢da: Yes. Bhürijana: I feel that this is... Prabhup¢da: Besides that, if you do not take to Deity worship, then you shall remain unclean. That’s a fact. (end) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Bdas, I'm not sure exactly what you were pointing to, but I assume it was to change of dress. But then not all change of dress was acceptable.Not like hippies, but ordinary American gentlemen. Was this your point or did I miss it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 I believe one of the most mis-used saying of His Divine Grace was the "by hook or crook".It seems to me to be a big step from using one's intelligence and even aggressive salesmanship to perpetuating a fraud. This is from a letter to Rupanuga Jan 9 1975: Regarding the controversy about book distribution techniques, you are right. Our occupation must be honest. Everyone should adore our members as honest. If we do something which is deteriorating to the popular sentiments of the public in favor of our movement, that is not good. Somehow or other we should not become unpopular in the public eye. These dishonest methods must be stopped. It is hampering our reputation all over the world. Money collected for feeding people in India should be collected under the name ISKCON Food Relief. Not any other name. And every farthing of that money must be sent to India, or better yet, buy food grains there and ship them here and we will distribute. But every farthing collected for that purpose must be used for that purpose. I have already sent one letter to Ramesvara explaining these points. I hope this meets you in good health. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 At this time money was being collected in the name of feeding hungry children in India.No books were being sold just collecting.And the money wasn't being sparately accounted for and used for the promised purpose. It was used, I suppose for Temple maintenance,and imaginative and innovative minds saw that as OK.I even did it a few times but stopped when I learned of this letter. Letter to: Ramesvara -- Bombay 1 January, 1975 75-01-01 Los Angeles My dear Ramesvara, [snip] Whatever fund is collected for food distribution should be sent to India. Why is it not sent? The other funds coming from sales of books can be accounted for properly, so where is there any fraud? Sometimes a salesman can say something extraordinary in order to sell something, but that is not fraud. Just like they are selling this oil, saying that if you rub it on your bald head, hair will grow. Where is the case where a bald man's hair grew from this oil? But the government is not charging with fraud. Don't use these UNICEF cards, that will not be good. You can make ISKCON FOOD RELIEF cards. But the money collected using this card must be sent to India where we are actually feeding people. If we simply speak nicely to a person and try sincerely to get him to take the book he'll take it. Why should we adopt unfair means? We should not do anything which will create a bad impression or make us unpopular. People are after these books, they are hankering for them. We don't need to take cheating method. I never had to use any cheating method when I first began. I simply presented the real thing. Basically and practically speaking everything that is done sincerely for Krishna's satisfaction is perfect. But we have to be very very careful in our dealings with others so that they will not take the wrong view. Just like the gopis. They left their homes in the dead of night to go and meet this young boy Krishna for kissing and embracing. To the ordinary person, this is sinful, but to the devotee, it is worshipable and it is considered the highest form of devotion even by Lord Caitanya who was himself a very strict sannyasi. Therefore we are very careful not to discuss this rasa-lila in the presence of ordinary men because they will only misunderstand and commit offense. While dealing with the ordinary men, we must spread this movement in such a way that they will not misunderstand us and take offense. Try to sell as many of my books as possible to your best ability. I hope this meets you in good health. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami ACBS/ps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Letter to: Tripurari -- Bombay 16 January, 1975 75-01-16 Atlanta My dear Tripurari das, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letters dated Jan. 1st and 5th, 1975 and have noted the contents. My general request is that you all distribute as many books as possible and at the same time be very careful in dealings with others so that they may not become irritated with us. Your book sale statistics are astounding. I am so much pleased. Please continue distributing such nice quantities and try to enthuse others more and more. You are sincere, so Krishna will give you all intelligence, strength and everything else you may need to distribute millions and millions of books. I have written letters to Ramesvara and Rupanuga in regards to the recent controversies about book distribution methods to be used by our men. You may refer to those letters if you like. Regarding the two boys you mentioned, they can receive initiation in Mayapur as long as they are recommended by the temple president or GBC. I hope this meets you in good health. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svami ACBS/ps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Dear MC, Preaching and practicing KC requires proper adjustment and overall consideration of the words of our spiritual masters. This is evident when you consider your last posts about food relief money and Prabhupads words to Burijana about "big moralist etc." Prabhup¢da: But a devotee’s view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she’ll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her. Somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she’ll read and she’ll benefit. But you people, you think that why we should sell like that, that, “Yes, there is some solution of power shortage.” Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are sometimes the father’s child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine, and promises, “You take the medicine. I’ll give you this cake.” The purpose is not to give the cake actually. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that “If you take the medicine I’ll give you the cake.” But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him. “If you take the medicine and I’ll give you cake.” So is the father wrong or right? Bhürijana: No. Prabhup¢da: Similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person it is good for him. Don’t take how he is selling, but he’s giving the book to that person and he’s paying something and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They’ll see, “Why the father has spoken lie to his son. He’s not a good father.” They’ll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that. That “If you take the medicine I’ll give you cake.” So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand this thing, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiøöhira Mah¢r¢ja. He was asked by K§øëa that “You speak lie to Dron¢c¢rya that ‘Your son is dead.’ ” Yudhiøöhira Mah¢r¢ja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than K§øëa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Arjuna. Arjuna was arguing with K§øëa that this killing of my relatives, it is horrible, abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king. Did he not say? That is ordinary man’s argument. But as Yudhiøöhira Mah¢r¢ja refused to speak lie, [break] Arjuna in spite of his conviction that it is sinful to kill my relatives, he still agreed to kill. Why? Bhürijana: That is supreme moral, K§øëa’s desire. Prabhup¢da: What K§øëa desires, if one dies, he’s above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that our spiritual master wants to preach K§øëa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means, that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, “Oh, they’re taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I’m big moralist. I’m bigger than him.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by BDas:We cannot simply be line-quoters without common sense consideration of all the words and siddhanta of our Guru Varga. True, that is why I am skeptical of any changes.The mind also has it's version of common sense.In Kali yuga common sense may not be so common. This is what Bhaktivinodes "essence seeking" Vaisnavism is all about. And those that have extracted that essence are paramahamsas.They can make any changes.Note I am speaking about significant changes not minor adaptions to your circumstance. Example:Some devotees are in a country like Afghanistan.They are shaved up etc.An edict comes down from Mullah Omar Run-Amuck that anyone with a shika is to be killed.But guru has said always keep shika.What do you do?Obviously cut it off and grow it back later when you are in a different circumstance.That is a minor thing. Anyone can take a line from Prabhupad and stand by it without thinking. True. "Don’t take how he is selling, but he’s giving the book to that person and he’s paying something and that is good." Without due consideration of the overall teachings of Prabhupad this line says it does not matter how books are sold. And this conversation took place before the letters posted about food relief money. The letter to Tripurai was not just about relief money.He was telling him not to use cheating methods.I am not pointing this at Tripurari.Prabhupada also had Ramesvar send a letter on these points to all the temples at that time. As we must take due consideration of Prabhupads words and spirit on whole we should also consider the spirit and words of our Gaudiya line as a whole. It all looks pretty straight forward to me in terms of how to practice it.Mustering the will to do is another thing.There is a danger of seeing something that the mind objects to in Srila Prabhupada's books and in the name of 'essence seeking'turn those words on their head and do just the opposite. Indeed I believe it is very difficult to grasp the essence of the Bhaktivedanta purports and letters without due consideration of the purports of the predicessor acharyas. Maybe in some letters of transcripts of conversations where the context is obscure and tonal influcuations are not present. Yet some devotees still maintain we should not even read the books of the predecessor acharyas. BDas I know but their positon is not valid.This is from Adi lila 5.203 purport Sri Sanätana Gosvämi Prabhu, the teacher of the science of devotional service, wrote several books, of which the Brhad-bhägavatämrta is very famous; anyone who wants to know about the subject matter of devotees, devotional service and Krsna must read this book. Hare Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 More on this issue: may 13, 1975 Morning Walk Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous acaryas. Prabhupada: Hmm? Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other, all acaryas. So I was just wondering... Prabhupada: I never said that. Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh. Prabhupada: How is that? Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acaryas' books. Prabhupada: No, you should read. Amogha: We should. Prabhupada: It is misunderstanding. Paramahamsa: I think maybe he was thinking that there was some things about some of the Gaudiya Matha books. Prabhupada: Maybe. Paramahamsa: And sometimes you said that better not to..., better to read your books. Amogha: When the devotees went to India this year, they said that Acyutananda Swami very..., chastised them that "You should never... If I catch any of you buying Bhaktisiddhanta's books from Gaudiya Matha then I will take it away," something like this. Paramahamsa: Yeah, that was, the reason was because of, he didn't want the devotees going to Gaudiya Matha But there's nothing wrong with the idea of studying the previous acaryas' books. Prabhupada: No. Who said? That is wrong. We are following previous acaryas. I never said that. Paramahamsa: All of your commentaries are coming from the previous acaryas. Prabhupada: Yes. Jayadharma: But that wouldn't mean that we should keep all the previous acaryas' books and only read them. Prabhupada: That is already there. You first of all assimilate what you have got. You simply pile up books and do not read-what is the use? Jayadharma: First of all we must read all your books. Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Practically speaking, Srila Prabhupada, you are giving us the essence of all the previous acaryas' books in your books. 68-08-23 Vrndaban, India My dear Sripada Bon Maharaja, kindly accept my humble dandabats. I beg to inform you that many of my American disciples have become seriously interested in the philosophy of Krishna Conscious. They want to come to Vrindaban to study the Krishna philosophy as authorized by explained by the Gosvamis and specifically by Jiva Goswami in his six Sandarbha. Some of them are U. s of U.S.A. and Canadian universities. I beg to inquire what facilities you can offer them if they come in India for such studies. I may also inform you that my disciples are not from rich community of America. Most of them are whole time worker in my society. But they have sincerely developed Krishna Conscious by the recommended process of Lord Caitanya. You will be glad to know that they have been able to draw the attention of the Ambassador of India and Consul General in N.Y. by their Krishna Conscious activities. I hope you will cooperate for their further advancement in their search of Krishna Conscious philosophy. Vrindaban 9 August, 1967 67-08-09 My Dear Janardana, Pradyumna, and Sivananda, Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to inform you that we have safely reached India on the 25th July at midnight due to a sixteen hour delay in London. But I am glad to inform you that there was no bodily discomfort while traveling. Kirtanananda and I stayed for a few days in Delhi and then came to Vrindaban on the first. I am undergoing the treatment of an ayurvedic physician celebrated to be the best there is in the area, and I think I am feeling a little better. Anyway, as soon as I am a little fit, I shall return to you by the Grace of Krishna. Janardana: I had some talks with my god-brother, Swami Bon, head of the Institute for Oriental Philosophy here, and there is possibility of good cooperation between ourselves. If you want to learn sanskrit, there is ample opportunity in this institute. We had some preliminary talks, and it is hopeful that Swami Bon can give us some land for our own building; but even so, arrangements can be made with existing facilities so there would be no difficulty for the students who come here to study sanskrit and the goswami literature. I shall be glad to know about the activities in Montreal, and herewith you may find a note from Kirtanananda. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanpeter Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Haribol Maitreya prabhu! Essence seekers are not all paramahamsas yet, though they're usually inclined towards raganuga bhakti. When Mulla Omar Run-Amuck (nyuck nyuck) is on the prowl, but guru has said you must keep your shika, keep it in your pocket! Brahma das has admitted to being firmly fixed in the mode of passion. Of course that's one up on the mode of ignorance where I lie (literally) entrenched; however his creative urge appears to demand expression, while I can't really be bothered. Hope you'll be able to clear your head of all this so your heart can fully absorb the holy places on your coming pilgrimage. Who knows, they may not be there much longer on this physical plane. Wish I could be with you in more than spirit. Remember Radhika! valaya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasanudas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Dandavats to the duelling devotees. Dear Maitreya and Brahma Prabhus, Just flew through your posts here and would like to share a few observations that came to mind regarding adjustment and preservation of the teachings of our acharyyas. It appears our views and our conditionings often stem from our associations and influence our thinking. I may be wrong but it seems both of your stands are relevant and both can be practiced within the Krsna conscious preaching field for instance, if you take Siddha Swarupananda's presentation and application you will find that he may well have been concerned and sensitive to public perceptions of forceful book distribution, therefore he chose many other means to propagate the holy names, these could well be seen as major adjustments taken to the extreme where at one point the holy names were practically omitted due to being painted with the same brush. In those early days when this experiment was tried I also was in his camp and felt quite embarrassed by the bombastic measures how some Iskcon devotees were pushing Krsna consciousness to the public. Still I was trying to have some respect for the book distribution programme that Prabhupad wished all his disciples to engage in. Now on the other hand Tripurari Maharaj with his enthusiastic and outfront propagating campaign in his way was no doubt getting books into the homes of many who may never have had a chance otherwise. From what I can see and understand Tripurari Maharaj appears to have followed Prabhupad's instructions more to the letter than making adjustment like Siddha Swarup. But both were generals in those days doing their best to help the suffering animation get some thread of Prabhupad's mercy as we find even up to this day their followers are still out there on the battlefield which is to their credit, at least they haven't left. I find myself in a mixture of these two applications coming in the line of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math which hasn't compromised the form and still holds the substance at heart. Although Srila Sridhar Maharaj was considered a form breaker, his personal example was non-different from Srila Rupa Goswami, and as Brahma Prabhu would know his adherence to the essence and the core values of our sampradaya were never compromised. It's true as Maitreya has stressed that the Paramahamsas can make adjustments to suit time and circumstance but unless we're on this platform and divinity unquestionably empowers us to do so, it may cause some confusion for the aspiring devotees and the general public. We can see even in so many spiritual persuasions be they Christian or Islamic where the present priests and acharyyas are adjusting and interpreting that causes sheer anarchy and confusion for all. I left the line of Siddha Swarup to take shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj precisely for this reason. Unfortunately I lost many friends in the process of doing this, another sad reflection on the accommodating ability of this Gaudiya family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by amanpeter: Haribol Maitreya prabhu! Essence seekers are not all paramahamsas yet, though they're usually inclined towards raganuga bhakti. When Mulla Omar Run-Amuck (nyuck nyuck) is on the prowl, but guru has said you must keep your shika, keep it in your pocket! Yes not just seeking.I had said extracted.It would have been more clear had I used the wordassimilated as it conveys better what I was trying to say. Shika in pocket.LOL.You are a funny one.How about with one of those rubber tips[like on play arrows] so it could be stuck back on at home and taken off in public?Just a thought. Hope you'll be able to clear your head of all this so your heart can fully absorb the holy places on your coming pilgrimage. Who knows, they may not be there much longer on this physical plane. Wish I could be with you in more than spirit. Remember Radhika! valaya Thanks I'll try for that rememberance. MC [This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-17-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by dasanudas: I left the line of Siddha Swarup to take shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj precisely for this reason. Unfortunately I lost many friends in the process of doing this, another sad reflection on the accommodating ability of this Gaudiya family. Stone: A devotee who lives here and who also took shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj 20 years ago told me that,of the devotees who came to hear from Maharaj, those who listened best included many of Siddha's followers from Australia and NZ. It is certainly a shame that we end up losing the company of old friends when we choose to associate more closely with one group. The same thing has happened in my life. I wonder if we can find ways to minimize this occurence. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDas Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 I liked Siddha he gave me my first set of Jappa beads when I came to the Pitts temple. They were some kind of blue Hawaiian seeds strung together. He called them Radha's tears. Anyone know what they were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanpeter Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by BDas: I liked Siddha he gave me my first set of Jappa beads when I came to the Pitts temple. They were some kind of blue Hawaiian seeds strung together. He called them Radha's tears. Anyone know what they were? Radha's tears?! WOW! Sure would like a set of those, even a short mala would do...valaya ------------------ amanpeter@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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