Absolute Authority?

[Bhaktavasya]

 

from Back to Godhead volumne 12 no.9 1977

 

Srila Prabhupad Speaks Out

 

On Absolute Authority

 

The following conversation between HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad and one of his disciples took place in Bhuvanesvara, India

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, one criticism against our Krsna consciousness movement is that we are foloowing absolute authority. People are critical because we rigidly adhere to your authority and to the authority of the scriptures. They say this is not a healthy psychology.

 

Srila Prabhupad: Their criticism is a contradiction. If they say authority is not good, then why are they criticizing us? They are trying to impose their own authority on us.

 

Devotee (in the role of an antagonist): I don't say you have to accept me as an authority.

 

SP: Then you are talking nonsense. You are like a merchant selling his wares, but telling the customer, "You don't have to buy from me." What is the use of his selling? And what is the use of your instruction, if I don't have to accept you as an authority?

 

Devotee: Well, everyone has his own life to live, so each person should take the best from many authorities. I might accept some ideas from your philosophly and some from various other philosophies as well. I can take whatever I think is best for me.

 

SP: But if you find the best of everything all in one place, then why should you run here and there?

 

Devotee: Well, history teaches us that whenever thre is absolute authority, it isn't healthy- like Hitler's Germany, for example.

 

SP: Absolute authority is bad when the authority is wrong. But if the authority is right, then it is good- because you can submit to one quthority and receive all knowledge. It's like going to a supermarket; we can get everything there in one place.

 

Devotee: But people often confuse our allegiance to scriptural authority with totalitarianism. One professor told me that if the Krsna consciousness movement ever became powerful, we would probably be intolerant towards all other religions.

 

SP: That means he does not understand us.

 

Devotee: Suppose someone didn't want to be a devotee in a society with a Krsna-conscious king or president. What would happen to him?

 

AP: The king must chastise him- he has that power. For example, if a child says, "Father, I don't believe in education;let me play," the father will never allow it. The king's duty is to guide the citizens like that.

 

Devotee: But if someone wanted to be a Christian in a society governed by a Krsna-conscius leader, would that person be chastised?

 

SP: The father doesnot chastise always, but only when his son does something wrong. To practice the Christian religion means to believe in God and abide by His orders. A faithful Christian would not be persecuted in a society with Krsna-conscious leadership.

Devotee: So the Christians would be allowed to follow the Bible?

 

SP: Yes. To follow the Bible is certainly religion. But the Christians today do not follow their scripture. The Bible says, 'Thou shalt not kill," but they are killing millions of cows and eating their flesh. What kind of Christianity is that?

 

Devotee: So they should be chastised.

 

SP: Yes, they should be punished. That is the duty of the kinlg. You mkay follow any bonefide religion and receive all protection by the Krsna-conscious government. But if you don't follow your own religion faithfully, then you must be corrected. That is the king's duty. A king cannot dictate that you must follow one particular religious faith, but he can order that you follow some religion. If you have no relgion, then you are an animal, and you must be chastised. Religion means the instruction given by God. And to be religious means to obey God and to love Him, So it doesn't matter through what religious process you have understood God. The important thing is that you love God and abide by His orders. Then you are religious. But if you do not know God- or if you have some imaginary god- then you must learn who God actually is. And if you refuse to learn then you must be punished.

 

Devotee: If someone says, "I know God" what is the test to see if he really does?

 

SP: The test is that he must be able to explain about God to others. ASk him, "Can you say what God is?"

 

Devotee: "God is the force moving the universe".

 

SP: So that means you do now know God. Who is behing the force? Whenever there is force, there must be a person who is forceful- who if forcing. Who is that?"

 

Devotee: I don't have such a vision.

 

SP: Then learn about God from me. And if you refuse, then you must be punished. You see, the king has to see that the citizens are God conscious. That is his duty.

 

Devotee: Then a Krsna-conscious leader has to be like a father?

 

SP: Yes. That quality was personally exhibited by Lord Ramacandra. He treated His subjects like His own sons, and they treated Lord Rama as their father. The relationship between the king and the citizens should be like that between a father and his sons.

 

Devotee: The chastisement tha the king gives...

 

SP: That is out of love, not enviousness. Chastisement means correction. If a citizen is accting wrongly, he has to be corrected. This is actually Krsna's business in human socity: to chastise the miscreants, to give protection to the godly personls, and to establish the true principals of religion. This is the mission of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the world and we have to execute His mission. Gradually, Krsna conscious devotees have to take the posts of leadership and correct the whole human society.

 

end of article

 

p.s SP brought Lord Chaitanya's teaching to the west, which this article appears to be inl contradiciton of. Native American indigenous people, and other religions, do not consider meat eating sinful. Would they be 'punished' in a hypothetical Krshna-conscious kingdom? If so, count me and 99% of the population out. In other words, it would never happen.

 

Another footnote, as I typed this out, the other people at the computer lab began freaking out over the destruction of the World Trade Centre in New York and the pentagan in Washington, DC.

 

 

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Another footnote, as I typed this out, the other people at the computer lab began freaking out over the destruction of the World Trade Centre in New York and the pentagan in Washington, DC.

 

Aren't they being 'punished' by a hypothetical Allah-conscious kingdom? Isn't your Prabhupada preaching exactly the same religious mentality changing Allah by Krsna?

My apologizing in advance JNdas as you may choose to delete this.

 

F U Satyaraja.You cyber terrorist F

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-11-2001).]

[ggohil]

Just a thought.

 

Followers of some other religion may consider to chastise people, who do not follow the

principals of particular religion, in a form of Holy War or some other means.

 

It all appears to get very confusing.

 

Why can we not spend all the energy in channeling our efforts to discover true love for the Divinity and leave all kinds of chastising to one who really knows and understands everything.

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

My apologizing in advance JNdas as you may choose to delete this.

 

F U Satyaraja.You cyber terrorist F

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-11-2001).]

 

The usual expected knee-jerk response! Too bad you can't PUNISH him eh, by calling down the wrath of God! Yeh, it's all Satyaraja's fault, and those nasty meat-eating homos--anyone but ourselves, right? We so pure!

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-11-2001).]

[amanpeter]

Bhaktavasya:

Another footnote, as I typed this out, the other people at the computer lab began freaking out over the destruction of the World Trade Centre in New York and the pentagan in Washington, DC.

An intereseting coincidence indeed!

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Maitreya]

At this very monment there maybe 50,000 people dead or laying in the rubble of the buildings in New York.

 

And he equates the mentality that caused that with Srila Prabhupada?

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

At this very monment there maybe 50,000 people dead or laying in the rubble of the buildings in New York.

 

And he equates the mentality that caused that with Srila Prabhupada?

 

Maitreya, you are obviously intelligent enough to formulate a more appropriate response that doesn't reflect back on you, and thus Srila Prabhupada.

 

We all know how provocative some can be here, but they are entitled to their opinions as are we all.

 

Let's not prove their stated beliefs, ignorant and offensive as they may be, by our own senseless reactions.

 

The best we can do for those directly affected by this tragedy is to pray and chant, expressing all our emotional pain and frustration directly to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-11-2001).]

[shvu]

 

oops.

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 09-11-2001).]

[JRdd]

Well if self-reflection is indeed in orer here, prabhu Valaya, then maybe you should scroll back and look at your post previous to this latest one. At least MC is direct.

 

Peace, Jayaradhe

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

At this very moment there maybe 50,000 people dead or laying in the rubble of the buildings in New York.

 

And he equates the mentality that caused that with Srila Prabhupada?

Honey, this passes over some heads like a 747. Why do you try?

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada, our loving and liberal acharya.

 

JR

 

P.S. Why don't we all chant and pray extra today?

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Another footnote, as I typed this out, the other people at the computer lab began freaking out over the destruction of the World Trade Centre in New York and the pentagan in Washington, DC.

 

Aren't they being 'punished' by a hypothetical Allah-conscious kingdom? Isn't your Prabhupada preaching exactly the same religious mentality changing Allah by Krsna?

 

Really, Satyaraja das, you surprise me! This must be a new low, even for you. Further confirmation of your heartlessness? Just another opportunity for a `stimulating` discussion, prabhu? Show a little judgement, if not sympathy, eh?!

 

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Well if self-reflection is indeed in orer here, prabhu Valaya, then maybe you should scroll back and look at your post previous to this latest one. At least MC is direct.

 

Peace, Jayaradhe

One expressed an inappropriate opinion in an intentionally offensive manner while the other responded with stupid personal insults in an equally offensive manner. I replied to both and also commented on Bhaktavasya's post without expressing any opinions of my own. I'm still not able to take any devotee's side, individually or as a group, wholeheartedly against any other devotee!!! Please don't condemn me for this, prabhu, or close your heart to any of us. Terrorism is a divide and conquer tactic and it's destructive at so many levels. valaya

 

 

[JRdd]

Not condemning you prabhu. Just saying how Ii feel, just as you are.

 

JR

[talasiga]

Originally posted by JRdd:

P.S. Why don't we all chant and pray extra today?

And when two million people

were murdered in cold blood

in Cambodia between 1975 to 1978

(say average 18,000 a day)

under the Pol Pot Regime

Did you "chant and pray extra" then

or was your head buried in the sand ?

 

When the world is crying for our compassion

Is it right to run into our room

and offer extra rounds?

 

Does the medical doctor rush to help

the suffering patient or decide rather

to count the moments with Prescriptions ?

 

Is love of God a narcissistic obsessesion

a self rigteous profession

or a secret affair

to raise peace

in a riotous world ?

 

Which Messiah was it who favoured

working for God over JUST repeating His Name ?

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

[

P.S. Why don't we all chant and pray extra today?

Solid advice for any situation,in happiness or distress.

 

 

[talasiga]

Maitreya

It has been said you are/were a Christian.

 

Exactly where is it recorded that Jesus favoured working for God over JUST repeating His Name ?

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Another footnote, as I typed this out, the other people at the computer lab began freaking out over the destruction of the World Trade Centre in New York and the pentagan in Washington, DC.

 

Aren't they being 'punished' by a hypothetical Allah-conscious kingdom? Isn't your Prabhupada preaching exactly the same religious mentality changing Allah by Krsna?

HAVE YOU NO COMPASSION???

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by leyh:

HAVE YOU NO COMPASSION???

 

 

Cannot you discern it ?

 

 

[JRdd]

I am not in New York talasiga, are you? And there is no way to get there either, even if I was physically able to do such a journey right now. You would rather I do nothing?

 

A smile relieves

a heart that grieves (in the words of Mick)

A stitch in two saves nine

but bandaids neither patch the heart

nor reach the soul

and though neither shall we neglect

Harinam goes beyond respect

 

One wonders why the bard picks at nits

like a dignified monkey (in Vrindaban )

Perhaps he flows with yuga times

but now is time to chant--

 

Tell me, what are YOU doing?

 

I am about to start a Peace Painting (yes, I believe art plays a strong part too, besides, relief work and chanting, silly me, thinking culture is important in society) and would like feedback. If anyone wants me to paint something for them in it let me know.

 

JR

 

 

[amanpeter]

So, Talasiga, besides continuing to pelt us with `clever` poetry, what is it you are suggesting we do? This is not, in my humble opinion, a proper time to poke at each other.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Tell me, what are YOU doing?

 

JR

 

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

So, Talasiga, besides continuing to pelt us with `clever` poetry, what is it you are suggesting we do?

1. I have not posted any poetry on this thread.

2. I do not set out to write "clever" poetry. It is only as clever as you would have it.

3. Chanting is great but not coupled with burying our heads in the sand.

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by JRdd:

I am not in New York talasiga, are you?

 

 

This is the nub of the matter.

I am saddened about what has happened there.

Not only the tragedy of suffering but ALSO

the tragedy that, according to the news, there are some New Yorkers celebrating in the calamity!

You wish to chant and pray more today.

This is your way. Good.

But what about every other day?

There is tragedy and distress

at every corner of the globe

every day.

But not of the magnitude of New York you may say.

Well look at Cambodia - 18,000 genocides daily as a notional average. Didn't that deserve an increase of the Holy Name count ?

Or doesn't the Third World count ?

 

No I am not in New York today.

I am here talking globally

acting locally.

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[talasiga]

by the way, Bhaktavasya,

I have very close friends

who eat MEAT !

I am secretly pained by this

They do not know all my secrets

That is their punishment !

[JRdd]

Well you pick arguments that don't exist dear friend, for you seem to assume that some are burying their heads in the sand; this based by you on evidence of their desires to chant or pray. Yes, at Cambodia times prayer increased no doubt, and may I say that as it is the nature of the conditioned soul to become easily, well, conditioned, or used to his or her environment and situations, their Tower gets shaken now and then by the Power behind the Tower, and this reminds us yet again of the immortality of this frame we have placed ourselves in, and reminds us of the urgency to spread the glories of Sri Nama far and wide before too many more among us die. So there is great sorrow but there is also great morrow if we make the most of it.

 

And as for chanting, you must be well-versed in sabda brahma so perhaps can easily envision the rippling effect of even just one uttering of Nam on this planet, and the tree really does make a sound even if no one is there to hear it.

 

I don't understand repeated contention-seeking when peace is so much easier. I myself prefer to find our common center than assume we have none. This isn't some competition or mundane wrangling we're trying to do here. This site was created for the purpose of sangha, engaging ourselves and each other in Krsna katha and okay sometimes exercising our ability to debate or see through a sticky issue, but to find faults where they are not relevant or evidently true is simply a waste of time and I think our clever minds and devotional hearts can come up with better things to do, don't you?

 

best wishes on this day of reminders of our spiritual natures,

Jayaradhe