Bizarre

[dasanudas]

Force out of ones body at the hands of another jiva is terrifieing. In Gods loving embrace that's another matter.

Whatever happen to good ole fashioned natural departure.

Tickets please, tickets!

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

I agree with Maitreya on this one. I can't believe a devotee would advocate 'choice/abortion' in this fashion. The choice is there in whether to engage the senses, after conception the only choice left to a devotee or a conscious human being is how best to provide for the child.

 

Stonehearted: I hope this doesn't sound heardhearted (nyuk nyuk), but, as blood-chilling as I find it for a vaishnava to condone, much less advocate, abortion, I think it may be rhetorically useful on some occasions to distinguish the questions of choice and abortion. That's hard to do these days, since "pro-choice" is the label adopted by those who advocate legal abortions. But we can recognize that the choice (and attendant responsibility) rests with the individual (or, depending on the relationship, on her and her partner). As Audarya-lila says (and my daughters have also said it pretty much like this), her real choice is whether to indulge or restrain the senses. That means we have to work hard to educate the populace to understand basic spritual truths, so they'll make the right (and, fom our perpective the only tnable) choice.

 

Please understand that I suggest this only as a rhetorical strategy in some circumstances. It has nothing to do with accepting abortion as a viable (yeah, I thought about it) choice. The ultimate goal is to help everyone with a brain and/or a heart to understand the enormity (lookup the real definition) of this (and here come's the Christian Right's rhetoric) holocaust.

 

BTW, as I was getting ready to leave for work this morning, I saw Rev. Jerry Falwell unequivocally apologize for his suggestion the other day that America deserves the terror attack, and that he blames abortionists, the ACLU, the secularists, etc. for the attack.

 

Of course, he has to do this. He has no real alternative to offer, beyond some nice sentiment about Jesus' sacrifice. We, on the other hand, although we can see things like this as natural consequences of a culture of slaughter (cows, babies, and truth), not God's wrath (but that's in the background, isn't it?), have a genuinely transcendental perspective to offer, made possible by a genuinely transcendental process. That way, we can focus on what will actually help them, rather than just beating them over the head with their sins.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by stonehearted:

 

BTW, as I was getting ready to leave for work this morning, I saw Rev. Jerry Falwell unequivocally apologize for his suggestion the other day that America deserves the terror attack, and that he blames abortionists, the ACLU, the secularists, etc. for the attack.

 

Of course, he has to do this. He has no real alternative to offer, beyond some nice sentiment about Jesus' sacrifice. We, on the other hand, although we can see things like this as natural consequences of a culture of slaughter (cows, babies, and truth), not God's wrath (but that's in the background, isn't it?), have a genuinely transcendental perspective to offer, made possible by a genuinely transcendental process. That way, we can focus on what will actually help them, rather than just beating them over the head with their sins.

Salagram-sila heart,

 

The Christians can't explain anything very well because they don't understand what Christ meant when he said "You sow what you reap."They can't explain how that works out without accepting reincarnation.They can't except reincarnation without understanding that we are distinct from the gross body.So to them life begins at conception.

 

They have a vague conceptions only.Until the understand the soul has no beginning and no end they can only present half truths and then not be able to back them up when challenged.Just like we saw with Falwell.

 

If you want to help them[Christians] please explain to them the nature of the spiritsoul and how karma carries over from birth to birth.

 

This would be a great service to Christ, I believe,who said"If you love Me feed My sheep."

 

Jaya Yeshua Jaya Krishna

 

 

[valaya]

That way, we can focus on what will actually help them, rather than just beating them over the head with their sins.

Maybe we beat ourselves, eh? Oh wait a minute, that'd mean abortions wouldn't be required, wouldn't it? How about handing out vibrators instead of condoms? (nyuck nyuck)

[dasanudas]

How bout calling off the birth and dying experience. And trying a new experiment. All back to the unborn- undying world.

Any way of undoing it Lord?

[stonehearted]

Y'all seem to have stated more clearly than I what I intended: that we teach them basic spiritual truths, beginning with the understanding that we're spiritual beings out of our element, and that all our behavior carries natural consequences. pardon me if I was a little oblique--I was trying to finish and rush to class.

 

I'm not so sure, though about the vibrators, though. I mean, hitting them over the head with vibrators would certainly have more effect than hitting them over the head with condoms, but what about the next time they feel the urge to sin. We can't be there all the time, so they'll eventually have to take responsibity for themselves. How about we hit them upside the head with deluxe volumes of Bhagavad-gita As It Is? Or how about vibrating massage chairs, so everyone can just mellow out?

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

I see a different similarity.We all see the what just happened in NYC as an act of terrorism.I also see what happens in abortion clinics daily as state sponsored terrorism against the unborn.Where is the terror in abortion some may ask?It all appears so orderly, so clinical, why it even resembles a medical procedure with the "doctors"[butchers] wearing white coats and displaying their degrees on the wall.The terror is in the hearts of those helpless souls as they are being scraped out of the"mothers" womb.You can see their pitiful attempts to avoid the butchers knife on a Sonagram but they have no escape.We would be able to hear them as well, but due to their underdeveloped bodies their screams are rendered silent.

 

Yeah there are some similarites all right.

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-20-2001).]

Yes, and there are the screams of the souls who just came from and are about to enter an unsafe, unjust world. Krishna says that it is unwanted population that creates a hellish society. Besides that, no-one can kill the imperishable soul. Maybe it goes back into the Brahman, preserved until it is received and welcomed into a peaceful world/home. Ultimately, whether to produce or not is a matter between the woman and her own conscience.

 

 

 

[suryaz]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

“I see a different similarity. We all see the just happened in NYC as an act of terrorism. I also see what happens in abortion clinics daily as state sponsored terrorism against the unborn. Where is the terror in abortion some may ask? It all appears so orderly, so clinical, why it even resembles a medical procedure with the "doctors"[butchers] wearing white coats and displaying their degrees on the wall. The terror is in the hearts of those helpless souls as they are being scraped out of the "mothers" womb.”

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-20-2001).]

Maitreya,

 

Why limit this abortion to the female and the “helpless souls as they are being scraped out of the "mothers" womb.”?

 

Bhagavatam says the soul is within the seminal discharge of the male - We could ask:

 

How much of male sperm gets abused (wasted, aborted) day and night – consciously or unconsciously in the wakened or in dream states.

 

Remember it is the soul we are talking about not the body.

 

Given that context we could also ask if the notion of the abortion of the soul in its progress towards human development is of the natural biology to the male?

 

And Jagat, we could also argue as you have done with regard to BB and the terrorists bombing thing: ‘the basic principle is the same” it is “different only in degree.”

 

Given the Bhagavat view of universal order of things, could we not argue that the male of the species are in themselves natural suicide bombers – killing million of soul’s birth process? – (God injected these poor souls into the sperm of the male for the function of birth, and they callously eject millions of them, sometimes times daily just so they may gain some sense pleasure)

 

But it is OK guys do not freak out just yet. Given our present technology every living DNA cell of male and/or female bodies are potential people; residing places of the soul in its development in human birth. But that is not all, every time we scratch ourselves, shower, groom ourselves etc. etc., we abort many millions of soul's residing places - if only we would give them the opportunity to come full term

 

This leaves us to ask what of collateral damage or abortion in war or abortion clinics –after all the above are “different only in degree.” Moreover is it not that “the basic principle is the same.”?

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 09-21-2001).]

[Jagat]

This discussion seems to have slipped off the point. I didn't mean to start a debate on abortion.

 

The point is that people with a strong sense of having suffered an injustice (either directly or indirectly), yet who feel powerless to achieve justice by regular means, and have a certain psychological predisposition to violence, become terrorists -- to use force to intimidate the powers-that-be.

 

This is what happened in Oklahoma; it is what anti-abortion terrorists and Islamic fundamentalists are engaged in.

 

When the powerful abuse their power, what resort do the weak have? Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. Revolutionaries were often terrorists who simply won the war. And history is written by the winners.

 

But I have to admit that in this particular case, I ultimately have to put my marbles with the American president. I think it is time to put pressure on Islamic states to move toward democracy. It is the one of the only parts of the world where democracy has not taken hold. South America and Eastern Europe have taken great steps in this direction and only the Arabic world is led by despots who use anti-Israeli and anti-American propaganda to bolster their own militaristic states. The U.S. props up many of these regimes, or has in the past. The U.S. has always been for democracy in theory, but placed such considerations on the back burner when it came to strategic interests.

 

The British empire left democracies in most of the countries it left behind. The U.S. also implanted democracy in the Philippines and other places where it had direct imperial power.

 

Had the U.S. directly intervened in Iraq, perhaps they could have established a democratic system there. The people are fairly well-educated and somewhat secularized. (Of course there are many complications in a country like Iraq, so this may be something of a pipe dream.)

 

Is it time to talk of a "white man's burden" again?

 

[valaya]

From jagat:

Is it time to talk of a "white man's burden" again?

 

More the burden of democracies I would say, in this increasingly educated age. The two must go hand in hand. Democracies require an educated electorate to mature and other democracies to interact with. Thus the growth of capitalism is synonymous with democratic governments, bringing the many material advantages desired by all.

 

People remain oppressed and ignorant because they have been taught that it is their lot in life, for whatever reason. True emancipation for everyone must be our common goal as only then will the concept of spiritual freedom as devotional service become widely accepted.

 

Otherwise the proper motivation will usually not be present, because one cannot give up what one doesn't possess. Religion in that case is generally simply the desire for liberation from physical circumstances, rather than material conciousness itself.

 

As Suryaz prabhu has so clearly pointed out previously on this forum, real Bhakti requires the exercise of free will in every sense of the word. RR

 

[Caitanyachandra]

'Thus the growth of capitalism is synonymous

with democratic governments'

 

Wow. How?

 

'Is it time to talk of a "white man's burden" again?'

 

Yes in west world. But Hindu mans burden afterwards for now what it looks like in 'Occident.

 

Democracy needs liberty while capitalism needs freedom.

 

Tudah.

[Caitanyachandra]

"Thus the growth of capitalism is synonymous with democratic governments, bringing the many material advantages desired by all."

 

Note:

The secondery scientifyic achievments come when there is a small group of scientists part of society working on new developments.

Not like now where there are people pumped out of educational slaughterhouse VILLES.

 

As for the recent terroristic bombings on New York. It's clearly United States fault. They keep pumping Saudi's oil for them. We should of moved on long tiems ago and built alternative energy sources and put them in our villages...

 

Too bad. NEW WORLD ORDER UNDER GOD NOW.

[Caitanyachandra]

Finish my wonderful aphorism:

"Democracy needs liberty while capitalism needs freedom."

 

The supply-demand-transfer of money converts the two however,...

 

[vishal krishna das]

Capitalism is not 'white'.

Many Hindus have always been successful capitalists. This is why Muslims hate them, with the Koranic stand against 'usury'.

 

USA is not 'white'. Many Indians have reported that they experience a subtle glass-ceiling in most 'multicultural' countries (eg. Canada, & esp. Europe) preventing them from achieving their potential (just as they were so prevented under the British Empire). BUT NOT IN THE USA. Indians have achieved more, more rapidly, in the USA than in ANY OTHER NATION. African Americans, or those who complain, have got it wrong. THERE IS NO MORE COLOUR-BLIND NATION ON EARTH THAN THE USA.

 

The USA is at the vanguard of killing off the global white hegemony and its subtle colonial remnants (such as patronising 'multiculturalism'). Opening up capitalism to all, 'globalisation', is the process by which this is occurring. I am not just talking theory, though I know enough to support what I am saying. This is the story of real people, right now, in my immediate family (some of whom worked in the World Trade Center, but all survived thankfully).

 

At least 30% (and growing fast!) of India's population have now achieved a middle-class standard of living. Under the British regime, preserved to some extent by Nehruvian socialism, this figure was closer to ZERO. Pakistan remains a feudal, colonial aristocracy like the Raj whose style it preserves. It deserves to share its fate.

 

Perhaps 10% of Silicon Valley Billionaires were BORN IN INDIA. In true American spirit they are now opening first-class educational institutions in India so that disadvantaged young Indians can follow their success. They are also building a $20million temple in SV. The future is Hindu because it is Capitalist!

 

JAI HIND! JAI PAX AMERICANA!

[Caitanyachandra]

I have nvr seen such a racist post in my life. Anyway, there is no white hegemony except in Western Hemisphere. Capitalism originated from Italy.

 

I don't have time to waste with your junk.

[Caitanyachandra]

Perhaps 10% of Silicon Valley Billionaires were BORN IN INDIA. In true American spirit they are now opening first-class educational institutions in India so that disadvantaged young Indians can follow their success.

 

10% / 25% doesn't make a diff. We Hindoos invented everythingin this world and everything outside this world and everything inside your mind / brain.

 

Personally, i don't believe there are any disadvanteaged indians in india. As for first-class educational institutions in America. There are none except MIT. Hopefully americans will catchup to Indians in technology, literature, but nvr philosophy.

 

Tahdah.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Caitanyachandra:

As for first-class educational institutions in America. There are none except MIT.

Tahdah.

Come to Berkeley and say that punk.

 

Bears will eat and spit you out single breath.

 

Pound sand.

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by vishal krishna das:

Many Hindus have always been successful capitalists. This is why Muslims hate them, with the Koranic stand against 'usury'.

.....Indians have achieved more, more rapidly, in the USA than in ANY OTHER NATION. ......................JAI HIND! JAI PAX AMERICANA!

Hey Vishal !

 

Pax Americana

 

or

 

Pakis Americana ?