MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going.

[Guest guest]

Valaya: Surely feeling gleeful while aware of others' misfortune and delighting in provocation is not the way of a devotee or a medical doctor, Satyaraja das prabhu. Please try and accept this as brotherly concern from one who often finds himself equally afflicted.

 

Satyaraj: Actually misfortune is to consider avidya as vidya, and faith as something that may cause mukti or even vidya. Isn’t proselytism itself a kind of provocation? Don’t you expect for some contrary reaction while ‘preaching’?

 

If you are equally afflicted you might not stop your search for Hari by imagining you are a finder and not a seeker like the others. Stop to think: “I had adopted a religious process and now I am a finder! Lol! I am at Goloka with Radha!!

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Valaya: Surely feeling gleeful while aware of others' misfortune and delighting in provocation is not the way of a devotee or a medical doctor, Satyaraja das prabhu. Please try and accept this as brotherly concern from one who often finds himself equally afflicted.

 

Satyaraj: Actually misfortune is to consider avidya as vidya, and faith as something that may cause mukti or even vidya. Isn’t proselytism itself a kind of provocation? Don’t you expect for some contrary reaction while ‘preaching’?

 

If you are equally afflicted you might not stop your search for Hari by imagining you are a finder and not a seeker like the others. Stop to think: “I had adopted a religious process and now I am a finder! Lol! I am at Goloka with Radha!!

Dear Satyaraja, you obviously continue to misinterpret where I'm coming from and my motives in posting what most prefer to keep to themselves. Of course, you are not alone in that!

 

It is most difficult to communicate such personal matters to begin with, but perhaps impossible on these internet forums. It seems to me that the one essential ingredient required in this kind of intimate sharing must be empathy. What little I have myself has been born from appreciation within my own heart of the value gained from painful experiences. It seems the heart must break to grow!

 

As for contrary reactions, not only must they be expected, but the true preacher has to be willing to take any negative reations onto himself/herself. Words may be cheap, as you well know, but real truth certainly is not...

 

Yes, I am still a seeker, but my search has narrowed considerably and is now focused solely on Her, through His Divine Grace. That doesn't make it any easier, in fact quite the opposite. I believe it is possible and even necessary to share understanding and encouragement with each other without having to share the same faith or philosophy. We are, after all, one family in God, are we not? Why should individual circumstances or beliefs interfere with our partaking in that Divine Love which is our legacy and ultimate destiny? I simply recognize that Love as Srimati Radharani and ourselves as Her parts and parcels.

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-23-2001).]

[Janus]

 

Saxon words for bofy functions are "dirtier" than Norman words because of a plurality of puritan-economic-racial prejudices that comprise a factor of our conditioning. Or to explain this a bit more simply when the Normans invaded Saxon England, taking it over, they became the Lords and rich from their plundering. To be a Saxon then was to be a member of a poor and conquered underclass, to be vile, or a villian (property-less), so Saxon words, or Saxon language is the language of the vulgar, amazing isn't it?

Just an interesting comment that I read somewhere and felt appropriate to post in consideration of the slant that the thread has taken.

Are Saxon words in actuality "dirtier" than Norman words? Of course not, but they are esteemed to be so due to our conditioning, which is obviously invisible but yet still acts upon us.

What in fact then are "dirty" words (and do they even exist? Perhaps we, as devotees need a new definition, and perhaps we even allready have one. What do you all think?

Hari bol

[gHari]

Even Satyaraja has again become a mouse, like Nitai and jjjjjjija?

 

That mind was just too clever, fella. He still thinks it's a mind thing and he can capture God in that bucket of synapses. The ego takes over and since God has not yet presented Himself as He should to such an intellect, they arrogantly assume that it is the process that has been in error. Let us hope that none of us gets kicked away so unfortunately.

 

I seem to recall that Prabhupada issued a memo calling such a one "a venomous snake". Unless y'all are experienced snake charmers I would highly recommend avoiding all contact - not even reading. They have been expelled for a reason and who are we to second guess Sri Krsna?

 

Somehow I doubt that this is really Satyaraja, and why the hell would he use that name now?

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[Janus]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

With all due respect, your continued nonsensical posts meant to demean and discredit Gaudiya Vaishnavism only serve to demean and discredit your own good self. (Audarya lila)

Gaudiya-vaisnavas are proselytizing all over the world. For certain they should expect some reactions besides humble reverences. Here we are in a discussion forum and we are free to discuss the philosophical tenants that you had pointed out. So, defend your own points if you can by direct refuting your opponents’ arguments.

 

Some really may find great pleasure in trying to discridit all that they had held as true when they were a 'Gaudiya Vaishanava' as they had noticed that these ‘truths’ were but concoctions and fallacies without any serious basis.

 

 

 

--

 

 

Surely feeling gleeful while aware of others' misfortune and delighting in provocation is not the way of a devotee or a medical doctor, Satyaraja das prabhu. Please try and accept this as brotherly concern from one who often finds himself equally afflicted.

 

valaya RR

 

Certainly it is not a mature perspective, so certainly it isn't deeply philosophical, and so it isn't human. Prabhupada said that a person without a philosophy was an animal.

What does that mean? And if the rejection is animal was the acceptance human?

The animalistic acceptance of Krsna consciousness may display a superficial acceptance of the philosophy but the actual impetus that occaisions ones acceptance and superficial display is occaisioned by weak biological imperatives. It was not an acceptance occasioned by a search for the Absolute Truth but was a search for culture, for somehing to make up for the lack of instinct.

It can be a fear response, or it can be a desire to acquire that which facillitates ones material acquisitioning of power, prestege, socio-economic advancement, or the bolstering of a passionate sense of false identity, of the type that is common to anyone entering into any messianic type of religion that sees itself and it's adherents as saviors of the world, or any combination of these. It can be "lust only", and thus the ignorance displayed by the persons being mentioned are in accordance with Bhagavad Gita and Lord Sri Krsna; predictable results.

Looking at it from the perspective of existential psychology there is considerable involvement of what Srila Prabhupada refered to as "Cheating propensity" and "tendency towards becoming self delusional" in such a perspective. The type of control that one expected was not attained, and rather than examining ones own self and ones own expectations to see if they were ever really appropriate to the paradigm being offered, one tends to blame and to imagine that one is being objective, to "tighten" ones control that "slipped" so badly as to allow one to have ever had accepted what one is now positing to be preposterous.

Were one to react differently and examine onesself and ones assumptions there would be nothing in the way of coming finally to the position of relevant inquiry, a position only imagined before. But that would be human.

P.S. The lack of self examination and self honesty can be seen as evidenced by the inabilty of said persons to refute the major postulates of Gaudiya Vedanta. Take just the "aham Bhramasmi" issue. What can they say, that they are not spirit soul, that their experiences in Krsna consciousness has proved this to them? No. The best that they could come up with would be to be human for a moment and to make from thence the claim that Krsna Consciousness failed to provide them with a paradigm by which their position as spirit souls could be realized, as it claims that it is able to to. Then however they would be subject again to self critique, to the numerous and self challenging questions of "Did you do?Were you?" Etc., and they realize then that they would have the Vaisnava literatures to contend with and that these would suffice to discredit their claims of objectivity and would reveal their insincerity, or their error. This is a particularly hard line exposition and fosters a misunderstanding due to the conjectures and assumptions that one may make due to a lack of more detailed exposition. To partly adjust for this suffice to say that quite a few are not aware of their dishonesty, or that their motivations for becoming devoties in the first place were material, or derived from an emotional impetus rather than from a philosophical imperative.

Hari bol

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-27-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-27-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Defend your own points if you can by direct refuting your opponents’ arguments. (Satyaraj)

 

In this thread we are discussing two points raised by Audarya lila while quoting your Prabhupada’s precepts: “ ‘spiritual life looks miserable’ & 'material life and all material paraphenalia are like so many zeros’ “

We said that these points are not but plagiarism from Zoroastrian’s doctrine and from Sankara’s Mayavada. Not any ‘original’ Krsna-conscience as he postulates to present.

 

Can you refute my argument or only make some vitanda?

 

[Janus]

Bring me my bow of burnished gold...Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Bring me my Chariot of Fire. Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

 

Hare Krsna prabhu's

 

"Thus in a certain sense we "make the fact. That is to say, beginning with immediate perception of an actual situation, we develop the fact by giving it further order, form and structure (we code it into our emic reality (R.a.w.)....In classical physics, the fact was "made" in terms of the order pf planetary objects...In general relativity, the fact was "made" in terms of the order of Reimannian geometry...In quantum theory, the fact was "made" in terms of the order of energy levels, quantum numbers, symetry groups, etc.

Dr. David Bohm - Wholeness and the Implicate Order, Ark Paperbacks, London, 1983, p.142

 

The arguement proposes no construction, just "Oh, just see that this is copied from that." But what is the Guru's claim? "I am not saying anything different."

 

What is night for the conditioned soul is daybreak...I am the sound in ether, the original fragrance of the earth. and from the topmost planetary system down to the lowest, all are places of misery. The line continues so what the accusation that the same truth is enunciated. "Yes, I am copying Zoroaster." What is your point?

It is a metaphysic. It is non-sectarian Prabhu.

One should abmit that there is mystery.

"Now I a fourfold vision see,

And a fourfold vision is given to me;

Tis fourfold vision in my

supreme delight

And threefold in soft Beulah's night

And twofold always. May God keep

From single vision & Newton's sleep.

Blake

 

If there is any problem with copying it is only notable in the copyists error. Where is the comment that the "copyest" Srila Prabhupada has copied something wrong? Perhaps Sri Krsna didn't get it, perhaps there is something much more valuable in this material natute than the touch of Srimati Rahdharani's bosom against His lotus feet?

Even "domesticated" primates have their limitations prabhu. Toss me another bannana so that I don't have to overbalance myself and reach to far out from my perch atop the counter.

I consider that Srila Prabhupadas ability to even master Srila Sankaracharyas atheistic Vedanta in Sri Krsna's service is worthy of tossing my graduation cap up three thousand feet into the air, but all you see is "I heard it before somewhere." Yeah, I bet ya did, probably not in Pharsee, or Persian, or in Sanskrit though I'll bet.

Why didn't we take to it then?

Some of us did.

What were you doing when you were 11, 12, or 10?

According to time and place. You adjust your presenation. Oh no, not us, we have merely to repeat, not even to be copyests, all we must do is repeat, repeat exactly, hoping all the time that someone will just listen to us out of what? Out of pity?

"

"In this thread we are discussing two points raised by Audarya lila while quoting your Prabhupada’s precepts: “ ‘spiritual life looks miserable’ & 'material life and all material paraphenalia are like so many zeros’ “

 

"We said that these points are not but plagiarism from Zoroastrian’s doctrine and from Sankara’s Mayavada. Not any ‘original’ Krsna-conscience as he postulates to present."

 

Ah, so Zoaraster wasn't repeating anything. He was in fact the originator of at least this point of "imperishable science." I feel worse than vultures tearing at my flesh when I hear such stupidity presented as "discussion"

 

"Can you refute my argument or only make some vitanda?"

 

Your reasoning doesn't even take into account a basic understanding of Sri Krsna's most obvious statements. Guru is One, and nescience? Why nest to Sri Sri Radha Krsna Nescience is allmighty prabhu.

 

Srila Prabhupada presented Krsna Consciouness...to us...according to time, and to space and to capacity. This is there, can it be used in Krishna's service?

 

So you you should see that you have your bone and that you are welcome to gnaw upon the meatless dirty old thing until the cows come home, but do not allow yourself to be victim to anymore bad ideas prabhu. Examine eacxh thought that you think to consider whether you are the originator of it or not so that we may say of you that you are at least not lazy in your bad habits.

 

Hari bol

 

 

 

[Janus]

Originally posted by Janus:

Bring me my bow of burnished gold...Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Bring me my Chariot of Fire.

 

Hare Krsna prabhu's

 

"Thus in a certain sense we "make the fact. That is to say, beginning with immediate perception of an actual situation, we develop the fact by giving it further order, form and structure (we code it into our emic reality (R.a.w.)....In classical physics, the fact was "made" in terms of the order pf planetary objects...In general relativity, the fact was "made" in terms of the order of Reimannian geometry...In quantum theory, the fact was "made" in terms of the order of energy levels, quantum numbers, symetry groups, etc.

Dr. David Bohm - Wholeness and the Implicate Order, Ark Paperbacks, London, 1983, p.142

 

The arguement proposes no construction, just "Oh, just see that this is copied from that." But what is the Guru's claim? "I am not saying anything different."

 

What is night for the conditioned soul is daybreak...I am the sound in ether, the original fragrance of the earth. and from the topmost planetary system down to the lowest, all are places of misery. The line continues so what the accusation that the same truth is enunciated. "Yes, I am copying Zoroaster." What is your point?

It is a metaphysic. It is non-sectarian Prabhu.

One should abmit that there is mystery.

"Now I a fourfold vision see,

And a fourfold vision is given to me;

Tis fourfold vision in my

supreme delight

And threefold in soft Beulah's night

And twofold always. May God keep

From single vision & Newton's sleep.

Blake

 

If there is any problem with copying it is only notable in the copyists error. Where is the comment that the "copyest" Srila Prabhupada has copied something wrong? Perhaps Sri Krsna didn't get it, perhaps there is something much more valuable in this material nature than the touch of Srimati Rahdharani's bosom against His lotus feet?

Even "domesticated" primates have their limitations prabhu. Toss me another bannana so that I don't have to overbalance myself and reach to far out from my perch atop the counter.

I consider that Srila Prabhupadas ability to even master Srila Sankaracharyas atheistic Vedanta in Sri Krsna's service is worthy of tossing my graduation cap up three thousand feet into the air, but all you see is "I heard it before somewhere." Yeah, I bet ya did, probably not in Pharsee, or Persian, or in Sanskrit though I'll bet.

Why didn't we take to it then?

Some of us did.

What were you doing when you were 11, 12, or 10?

According to time and place. You adjust your presenation. Oh no, not us, we have merely to repeat, not even to be copyests, all we must do is repeat, repeat exactly, hoping all the time that someone will just listen to us out of what? Out of pity?

"

"In this thread we are discussing two points raised by Audarya lila while quoting your Prabhupada’s precepts: “ ‘spiritual life looks miserable’ & 'material life and all material paraphenalia are like so many zeros’ “

 

"We said that these points are not but plagiarism from Zoroastrian’s doctrine and from Sankara’s Mayavada. Not any ‘original’ Krsna-conscience as he postulates to present."

 

Ah, so Zoaraster wasn't repeating anything. He was in fact the originator of at least this point of "imperishable science." I feel worse than vultures tearing at my flesh when I hear such stupidity presented as "discussion"

 

"Can you refute my argument or only make some vitanda?"

 

Your reasoning doesn't even take into account a basic understanding of Sri Krsna's most obvious statements. Guru is One, and nescience? Why next to Sri Sri Radha Krsna Nescience is allmighty prabhu.

 

Srila Prabhupada presented Krsna Consciouness...to us...according to time, and to space and to capacity. This is there, can it be used in Krishna's service?

 

So you you should see that you have your bone and that you are welcome to gnaw upon the meatless dirty old thing until the cows come home, but do not allow yourself to be victim to anymore bad ideas prabhu. Examine eacxh thought that you think to consider whether you are the originator of it or not so that we may say of you that you are at least not lazy in your bad habits.

 

HareKrsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hari bol

 

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-27-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-27-2001).]

[marco]

We will all know we are going if we concen-

trate our intelligence on Christ. I`m not

saying, mind, because the mind or brain can

be deceived by illusions.

As a disciple of Christ, I`m here to give

you what I know when I entered the seminary.

Please be patient with me for I`m not per-

fect in what I know about Christ.