False renunciation or true association?

[livingentity]

Please do not remove this post!

Originally posted by valaya:

Most of the married men I know, devotees and others, would be completely lost without their wives though I don't believe any of them realize it. While they're provided a clean comfortable home, fed well and generally kept gainfully employed on the straight and narrow, their minds tend to dream of the magical single life and all the possibilities it seems to offer. Sure, when you're well-fed, have a clean comfortable place to call home and a good regulated life. Try it all alone for awhile, brother!

 

I always remind them of what kind of lives they had before their wives took control, usually out of necessity, then point to my own wretched lonely existence. Whether any of it sinks in, I don't know, but I've little doubt that without the firm foundation of home and family they'd be pretty much lost. Maybe we men never fully accept maturity or enjoy family responsibility...

 

An older neighbour woman just died, leaving a husband who not only emotionally abused her, but never was able to recognize just how dependent he was on her constant accomodating presence. Well, I guess he'll learn to appreciate her now that it's too late...so sad.

 

I remember Prabhupada telling us that we should be attracted to the devotion we see in each. Surely our close relationships must nurture that same devotion if we are to grow as devotees. I see marriage mainly for the purpose of raising children, since partners need not actually enter into matrimony, even if there is sex involved. Certainly no one can depend on any formal ceremony to keep them together in this day and age.

 

As for intimacy, I don't believe that sex contributes towards real closeness in any way. In fact, I think that it fosters jealousy, possessiveness, and ultimately frustration. My idea of bonding is more of an emotional sharing which includes physical embraces and sleeping together, but without sexual intercourse or genital stimulation. After all, we're not these bodies, thank God!

 

Genuine love is for me the desire to strengthen another and encourage them to be all they can be, so that they become satisfied independently within themselves. We don't have to be married or live together in order to relate with each other like that. All we need is sufficent motivation, which I personally found from my worship of Srimati Radharani, in Her diety form and otherwise.

 

Now when I recognize devotion in another it's Her qualities I focus on. It's Her part and parcels that I try to encourage. She is the oneness for me and the essence that I seek. Only She is my all-in-all. Maybe I'm wrong in this, prabhus. I know often I feel like I'm making a fool of myself, but then I start thinking that I actually am a fool anyway, so why hide it from myself or anyone else?

 

Because of Her, I can reveal my vulnerability and I'm more in tune with the sensitive side of life, not having to remain behind a wall of hardness anymore. Unfortunately, now that my paternal instincts are finally emerging, my life is waning and this aching old body will soon slide into the 60's...

 

So I'm looking at those around me as my family, particularly you prabhus, trying to care more deeply and praying to Sri Radhika that She will allow me somehow to be of value. At times it seems She does, giving me whatever qualifications are required at that moment. Then it's back into my usual dull monotonous slump.

 

Anyway, that's my contribution to this thread, Jayaradhe dd. Hope it proves useful even if only to help others avoid coming to this point where they may also find themselves stuck in hopeless isolation. The dreamer who dreamed his life away! I'm afraid this post could be just a little too much wallowing, even for me, so read quickly 'cuz it might be gone tomorrow... valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-20-2001).]

 

[rishidas]

Hare Krsna JayaRadhe dasi,

 

I appreciated your thoughtful and heartfelt expression of the need for devotees, especially those who are now estranged from the Temples and isolated around the world, finding personal association with one another. As we grow older, it seems that old friends gradually drift away due to various circumstances...attrition, if you will. Myself, I've more or less been content living single, mostly due to habit, although I'm certainly not without desires for association, companionship, and basic human affection. There's a part of me that feels that I would be greatly benefitted by having the association of a like-minded Vaishnavi. Another part of me, however, feels that I may just wind up committing offenses, or being a source of eventual disappointment to a potential Vaishnavi companion. Probably this fear has prevented me from actively pursuing such association, especially as I grow older. You sound like someone who has very much to offer in the way of companionship. I know for myself, living alone, I often eat bhoga, (out of laziness), which of course is sinful. But I know that were I married or were I to have the good fortune of daily association with a devotee friend, (or friends), that this friendship would save me from eating bhoga. I consider honoring prasadam to be such a critical and vital aspect of our Krsna Consciousness development and growth.

 

Sadly, it is rather difficult to link up with like-minded mates these days, when most of us are isolated from one another. Sadder still that direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada must spend their final 20 or 30 years alone and isolated, when very possibly their association could very well have been beneficial for one another. I fully empathize with your situation. Women are not alone in this. For men, we also have the added pressure of the possible "embarrassment" of female association, as we have been taught for so many years that household life should be finished as we reach or approach the age of 50. On the other hand, there are extenuating circumstances these days which I feel should make it socially acceptable for allowing middle-age devotees to strike up relationships for the sake of obtaining sanga. (Especially when the alternative is utter isolationism.)

 

It's a real dilemma. And it's sad. Very sad.

 

Don't really have much else to add at this time, but just wanted to share a couple of my own thoughts on this topic which you have raised.

 

ys,

 

rishidas

[JRdd]

When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

 

(more later, when not so weary...)

[mahak]

Every Vaisnava in male form must feel incompetant if the tears of their sister Vaisnavas touch the ground. Lonliness is not a problem, though, because we are never alone. Always a discussion is going on internally, the teachings do not stop by disappearance of the Vaisnava.

 

As far as what the males were taught, many were taught evil, so these things must be rooted out. Association with women may be given up at 50 (or even sooner), but association with Vaisnavas should never be given up. If we were taught to make the mother of our children live alone in poverty with no one caring for her welfare in old age while we selfishly aspire some sort of spiritual status based on materialistic VAD mumbo jumbo, we have a lot of garbage to unlearn, and must reject all who taught that way.

 

Anyway, the female form is not mayadevi, the garbage in the mind of the matter addict is mayadevi, the female form is the great creation of the Supreme Lord which is the continuance of culture. Only from mama comes culture, papa cannot prove to his son his paternity, but mama can.

 

Culture, this is lost in any society which abandons mama. Mama is abandoned in our society, and the society lays in ruins. The reformers and rtviks will never succeed until they commit themselves to correcting this problem of abandonment.

 

Sallaye gottasay, haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[valaya]

Mayadevi and Radharani are opposite sides of the same coin--spend Her wisely!

 

Now I appear to be under attack on Dharma-mela for reposting an anti-sectarean article from VNN. Ignorance in the guise of devotion. Makes me wish I'd never gotten involved in any of this. Better to have become a moral atheist.

 

Cheap words in supposed glorification of Sri Guru do not a disciple make, prabhus. Nor does condemnation of another automatically prove one's superiority, in fact quite the opposite.

 

Still, I'm at a loss for words. If anyone would care to check out the article and it's aftermath, including my explanation, perhaps they could support or advise me. RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-21-2001).]

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by mahak:

Every Vaisnava in male form must feel incompetant if the tears of their sister Vaisnavas touch the ground.

 

Stonehearted: Megadittoes!

 

mahak: As far as what the males were taught, many were taught evil, so these things must be rooted out. Association with women may be given up at 50 (or even sooner), but association with Vaisnavas should never be given up. If we were taught to make the mother of our children live alone in poverty with no one caring for her welfare in old age while we selfishly aspire some sort of spiritual status based on materialistic VAD mumbo jumbo, we have a lot of garbage to unlearn, and must reject all who taught that way.

 

 

Stone: Gigadittoes!

 

mahak: The reformers and rtviks will never succeed until they commit themselves to correcting this problem of abandonment.

 

 

Stone: Damn straight! We've pretty much screwed up at taking care of women, cows, older folks (at least from what I've experienced in San Diego), and children. Brahmanas do okay if they fit in well with the institution's agenda somehow.

 

Yikes!

[atma]

Thank you prabhus for caring. So many of you had touch my heart recently with all your words and sometimes that is all what we need, compassionate words to make us feel better.

 

I have to say though that sometimes is better for a man not to get married if he can't take care of his family. Spiritually and materially.

 

Have to go. Thanks again for sharing your feelings.

[JRdd]

Originally posted by mahak:

Every Vaisnava in male form must feel incompetant if the tears of their sister Vaisnavas touch the ground.

This is a wonderful gift you give the devotees, in this gem of a statement, Mahaksa. Thank you! on behalf of not only myself but anyone else appreciating this message/gift. It is some solace in itself.

 

Loneliness is not a problem, though, because we are never alone. Always a discussion is going on internally, the teachings do not stop by disappearance of the Vaisnava.

 

This too is reassuring. Then too, loneliness IS a problem when we are not fixed in that understanding, and I myself am not fixed in that understanding, but still I derive some solace in the teeny realisation I do have, that Krsna is my dearmost friend, and that sweet Radha helps Him be that way. My advancement is so small that I only hope that offering my suffering, caused both by feeling the separation of devotees and by feeling the illusory separation from society, friendship and love in this world, will count for something when my Time comes to take me on to the next adventure, or horrow story as the case may very well be.

 

As far as what the males were taught, many were taught evil, so these things must be rooted out.

 

Yes and to be fair, some of us were men in previous lives who were taught the same evil things, so who knows where my own suffering in this life comes from. I do know that men also suffer, in their own ways. And sometimes their causes of suffering may be the opposite of some women's cause for suffering; the latter often suffers due to open and trusting hearts, capable of offering astonishing loyalty and service if only treated with respect, while the latter may be incapable even of opening their hearts, or very much afraid to (maybe they were the mistreated women before?) and thus suffer loneliness too.

 

But whatever the past causes of present conditions, the cycle has to stop sometime, if we are to get out of this rat(so-called human)race to better or avoid one another. Love and love only, in its various expressions and aspects, through the center of Love, Himself, is the only way to hop off the treadmill and start treading those sublime nectarean waters of the ocean of love of Godhead. I see these cute little sealions' sleek little dark heads above water, full speed ahead, glancing back now and then to make sure everyone else is making it okay. Big sealion smiles on their faces.

 

Association with women may be given up at 50 (or even sooner), but association with Vaisnavas should never be given up.

 

I myself accept the 50 timeline no more than I accept that young sannyasis will make it through to the finish line. We are people, we are persons, we have different requirements. Besides, the fact remains that, as you yourself and also Stoney says, many women remain unprotected. It is not like someone saw to it that they were left with some protection til the end of their days, as the great acharya Srila Prabhupada did for his family. How many feel suddenly renounced at fifty? I personally know no devotee who feels this way. Except maybe the odd sannyasi....??? I take Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's advice, as also given us by Srila Prabhupada, to always remember Krsna and never forget Him. And whatever it takes to facilitate that, well, I say go for it. Don't see any women's asramas available to me....

 

If we were taught to make the mother of our children live alone in poverty with no one caring for her welfare in old age while we selfishly aspire some sort of spiritual status based on materialistic VAD mumbo jumbo, we have a lot of garbage to unlearn, and must reject all who taught that way.

 

Then we must reject, among others, this society.

 

Anyway, the female form is not mayadevi, the garbage in the mind of the matter addict is mayadevi, the female form is the great creation of the Supreme Lord which is the continuance of culture. Only from mama comes culture, papa cannot prove to his son his paternity, but mama can.

 

WELL SAID!!! And if we deal with our present conditions, the way it is now (no blame, no shame, jsut being practical) we really can not only make the best use of a bad bargain, but move forward in leaps and bounds if we do it the right and loving way. What a nother gem of a statement you have left here!

 

Culture, this is lost in any society which abandons mama. Mama is abandoned in our society, and the society lays in ruins. The reformers and rtviks will never succeed until they commit themselves to correcting this problem of abandonment.

 

Too true!!! Godzilla dittoes!!!

 

ys, JR

[JRdd]

Atma I thought we lost contact. Gald to see you here after all. Did you get last email? Yes I agree with you wholeheartedly--no man should EVER get married who wants to play with the fire but not tend it, as my dear Godsister put it the other day. I meet plenty who have a good time playing with it. Few have the fiber or selflessness of spirit to tend it though.

 

thanks, JR

[valaya]

Originally posted by valaya:

Mayadevi and Radharani are opposite sides of the same coin--spend Her wisely!

 

Now I appear to be under attack on Dharma-mela for reposting an anti-sectarean article from VNN. Ignorance in the guise of devotion. Makes me wish I'd never gotten involved in any of this. Better to have become a moral atheist.

 

Cheap words in supposed glorification of Sri Guru do not a disciple make, prabhus. Nor does condemnation of another automatically prove one's superiority, in fact quite the opposite.

 

Still, I'm at a loss for words. If anyone would care to check out the article and it's aftermath, including my explanation, perhaps they could support or advise me. RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-21-2001).]

 

Seems Audarya lila prabhu was the only one to respond on Dharma-mela with any understanding. Actually, no one else had anything to say at all. Guess the rest of you must have missed my posts there and the one above, or perhaps you agreed with my accuser. Maybe no one even cared or wanted to get involved, for whatever reason. So why do I bother with anyone here, anyway? valaya RR

 

 

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by valaya:

 

Seems Audarya lila prabhu was the only one to respond on Dharma-mela with any understanding. Actually, no one else had anything to say at all. Guess the rest of you must have missed my posts there and the one above, or perhaps you agreed with my accuser. Maybe no one even cared or wanted to get involved, for whatever reason. So why do I bother with anyone here, anyway? valaya RR

 

 

Valaya, don't fall into the pity-party trap.

 

Ain't no Bosa Nova there,no Samba or Tango either.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Valaya, don't fall into the pity-party trap.

 

Ain't no Bosa Nova there,no Samba or Tango either.

Valaya wants to shake and bake....

[valaya]

Have no idea what either of you are talking about. Without increasing understanding, what is the point of further communication? Believe it or not, I don't talk just to hear myself speak or post here for any reason except to connect with others.

 

Should I conclude that is not happening in any productive sense, I will simply leave you all to your seemingly endless squabbles and continue my chanting alone. I have no taste for most of this, only the dwindling hope that something real might come out of it.

 

I'm sure you might be able to explain a lot, Maitreya, but of course you don't want to even take the personal risk of Emailing me privately, let alone speaking by phone. Love overcomes fear, as well as the urge to poke, provoke and generally disturb others. Looks like I can't participate without getting caught-up in the negativity that always seems to be lurking here, ready to pounce. Who needs it?

 

Feel free to answer on this forum or by Email: amanpeter@hotmail.com should the inclination strike any of you. Blame me if you like, it's `just another brick in the wall`.

 

valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-22-2001).]

[JRdd]

Valaya prabhu,

 

I wanted to respond to your request for devotees' feedback, but quite honestly did not know how to. I failed to see what was going on there at the Mela, despite reading it twice, and discussing it with a friend. Sometimes details elude me, maybe delude me too, I don't know, but I am unable to analyze it in any way that would shed light on it for you. I don't know if it is due to my type of intelligence, or lack thereof, or whether it's due to some lack of depth of understanding I have on the subject, or whether it's just plain old being tired the past few days, which has been affecting my ability to take complicated things in. I also haven't much taste for being very analytical. So as useless as this feedback is in terms of information, I hope it helps in terms of you feeling not ignored here. I took it that you posted that item in the spirit of wishing for unity. In saying this, I wish also not to offend anybody who feels it was in any way diminished Srila Prabhupada. I might have missed something there, I don't know. Just can't really get involved in it. Just as I can't get involved in ritvik discussions, it just all gets circular and confusing to me.

 

Prabhu sometimes people don't agree with us but we can't let it get us down for long, which I am sure you know. If we are too hard on ourselves, for having feelings or whatever, we will certainly be hard on others. We are all precious. Not that everyone is precious except me. I too tend to sometimes fall into a pity party, as Maitreya put it, and I will be the first to admit it when I see it in me. But sometimes you just gotta feel those feelings first, before you can move on. And I strongly believe it is much healthier than hiding from those feelings. You push them down, they are still there, looking for some other way to get out--and then, later, they often come out inappropriately to the moment. Which can give rise to misunderstandings and sudden lashing out type behaviour, with someone inevitably being bewildered by it.

 

A couple of days ago someone in a discussion group I participate in surprised me by saying she hoped "our beautiful artist Jayaradhe" didn't see some offensive posts that were soon deleted. I did not at all know I was seen this way, which she later explained as her view that artists suffer the most when the world turns ugly. This empathetic outlook, from someone I am only recently acquainted with, came at a very low moment for me, and encouraged me that I had some redeeming qualities in me, and that it was not wrong to be a strongly feeling person. Don't let people shame you for being who and how you are. When you feel shame from another, it is not your shame but theirs. I should think that if one wants to become closer to devotees, as is the broader theme of this thread, one should be able to share one's feelings and perceptions safely and without judgement. Having said all that, I think Maitreya meant to appease you, not alienate you further, by assuring you that he didn't see much going on there. It's good to have one's illusions smashed by an outsider. I mean someone outside yourself.

 

I would like to take this moment to apologise profusely to anyone who I offend or have ever offended by my words or actions. I feel that in this world we are all repeatedly doing yukky things, some more or less than others, but we are like clumsy oafs in these bulky coverings and are bound to bump or crash into each other at times, no getting around it. So if I stepped on your toes with my two lefties, I really really am sorry. It is that my heavy load makes me reel and stumble.

 

Aspiring to become pleasing to the devotees,

Jayaradhe

[valaya]

It is most unfortunate that we appear unable to share each others' loads, because therein lies the secret of connecting; not only with each other, but also with Sri Guru and Srimati Radharani.

 

One who can abandon another to their fate, rationalize from a distance or, worst of all, justify their lack of personal involvement while preaching from scripture, really has no connection at all.

 

Those who are willing to risk everything out of love, who in fact have no choice because their hearts overide their minds, who in spite of realizing their complete lack of any qualification still attempt to help in any way they can, are actually possessed by the service attitude that can lead quickly to pure devotion. All that is then required is to dovetail with the devotees, gurudev and Sri Radha.

 

The way, the means and the end are here and now for all to surrender to. Otherwise it is possible to linger about for countless lifetimes, taking what is of use to the false ego and remaining detached from reality internally, while going through the motions externally; all the while choosing what is pleasurable and avoiding that which brings pain or discomfort.

 

That is the difference between religion and relationship, personal and impersonal. Sacrifice is one thing, but for what and for who? In the end those who hold onto their little selves will lose everything while those who are somehow able to give up themselves, as opposed to simply give of themselves, will achieve realization of the higher self. That is the gist of what Lord Jesus said and, of course, it holds true for all on the path of devotional service as well.

 

What's to lose? Everything! What's to be gained? More than could possibly be imagined from our fearful limited vantage point in this miserable world. Faith, prabhus, not in ourselves, but in that highest Love Divine which has been spread before us like a feast; not to devour for ourselves, but to give away to each other.

 

Is it not obvious by now that I cannot take sides with devotees one against the other? My pleaful efforts on behalf of unity are, to be honest, totally selfish, because disunity tears me apart!

 

To be accused of calling Srila Prabhupada sectarean because I'd posted an article emphasizing the need for non-sectareanism was a complete shock to me! Then, in spite of my request here, to have no one respond was deeply painful. Finally, Audarya lila prabhu stepped in. Is he really the only one that can understand where I'm coming from, what I'm attempting and who I'm trying to serve? Or is he just the only one who gives a damn?!

 

I'm willing to accept the risks and give the emotional committment, but not if none of this is making any difference whatsoever. Sure, I know, don't be attached to the results. Well if I wasn't attached then how could I be connected, let only committed?

 

Come to think of it, if this madness continues much longer I'm afraid I'll soon have to commit myself for professional help in a mental hospital. At least it beats suicide, or does it? Besides, it's the only vacation I can afford! Maybe I could learn something there to apply here, eh? valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-22-2001).]

[valaya]

Dear Jayaradhe prabhu, Thanks for what I felt as encouraging hugs. I know, many may consider me wimpish or worse, but I have many sides. Few could ever appreciate them all.

 

First they would have to recognize those same sides in themselves. Love ain't easy, for us or for Her...I know who I belong to, whatever I may appear to be, and that's what is truely important to me. valaya RR

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by valaya:

Have no idea what either of you are talking about. Without increasing understanding, what is the point of further communication? Believe it or not, I don't talk just to hear myself speak or post here for any reason except to connect with others.

 

Should I conclude that is not happening in any productive sense, I will simply leave you all to your seemingly endless squabbles and continue my chanting alone. I have no taste for most of this, only the dwindling hope that something real might come out of it.

 

I'm sure you might be able to explain a lot, Maitreya, but of course you don't want to even take the personal risk of Emailing me privately, let alone speaking by phone. Love overcomes fear, as well as the urge to poke, provoke and generally disturb others. Looks like I can't participate without getting caught-up in the negativity that always seems to be lurking here, ready to pounce. Who needs it?

 

Feel free to answer on this forum or by Email: amanpeter@hotmail.com should the inclination strike any of you. Blame me if you like, it's `just another brick in the wall`.

 

valaya RR

 

 

Here is a brief explanation.A dasi on a different forum disagrees with you on something you posted and you get so emotionaly rattled by it that you send out the call to rally the troops and everyone should go and support you and your position.You didn't get the response you were hoping for and then went into a tailspin over how all your efforts for unity have gone in vain etc, etc.And threaten to withdraw into yourself because of it.

 

I said this in response:

Valaya, don't fall into the pity-party trap.

 

Ain't no Bosa Nova there,no Samba or Tango either.

 

By just withdrawing into a dejected state because"no on understands me"[pity-party]

you will find no happiness,i.e.no dancing,no joy..It takes two to Tango.

 

So what if she disagrees with you?That is her business.Maybe you can explain yourself to her and maybe not.If not then you just agree to disgree, not have an emtional breakdown.

 

Brace up brother.

 

[livingentity]

I tried really hard to find a cyber hug symbol but that proved futile.

 

I have been finding the dharma mela increasingly difficult to follow so basically have not read it for a while. So I really don't know what has caused you this distress but don't let it bother you so much. Not everyone is going to agree with everyone and at some point in time it will be your turn.

 

I read your posts and feel that you have some very valid input and hope that the disagreement on the dm does not stop you from posting.

 

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep on associating on the forums.

 

\ /

(hug)

[valaya]

Haribol Maitreya prabhu, thank you for your belated support. There's more to this than you know or I can tell here. I do go out on a limb often and need some confirmation occasionally that I'm not just way out there, or making a fool of myself for nothing. What one stranger believes means little, but it still was a shock. The lack of reaction from this forum, when I specifically pleaded for it, meant much more.

 

Usually I'm quite capable of defending myself and others as well, however this is a stressful time and what makes it more difficult for me, in fact impossible right now, is the continuing battles on these forums. No need to mention names, but the viciousness sometimes gets to me.

 

So just when I'm in the thick of it all, trying to keep something together amongst those whom I respect as devotees, another one broadsides me with malicious slanderous accusations, as if my attempts at unity somehow meant I was putting down Srila Prabhupada! What the hell???

 

I'm never certain of my own motivations, after all I am the most fallen, so it threw me for a loop. I would have preferred to be caught in mid-air to landing in an embarassing splat, then being handed a shovel and told I should clean myself up!

 

Those who are so sure of themselves that they never need affirmation usually end up being obnoxious or fanatics or both. Others just don't care enough to commit themselves to anyone, though they may cling ferociously to some philosophy that apparently justifies their position.

 

It's not my desire to criticize anyone, nor do I wish to involve myself uselessly in endless conflicts. Unless at least a little positive progress is evident in some way, shape or form how am I to know what's happening or what my involvement should be, if any?

 

It's not as if I'm in direct communication with Supersoul or even have devotee association here to talk things over with. Everyone advises me to stay away from these forums like they were poison. Maybe they actually are, but some of us are stuck here with each other, aren't we? So what to do? Wait for Sri Guru to save us from bashing one another? Personal participation from that level is conspicuous by it's abscence!

 

We're all we have, prabhus...and the whole world (many devotees anyway) is watching this little arena or experiment or whatever, including the entire parampara and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. Don't you think we could do a little better somehow or other?

 

valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-22-2001).]

[rishidas]

Seems there are 2 separate topics being discussed on this thread now. But if I may divert this back (temporarily) to the original topic...

 

Originally posted by atma: Thank you prabhus for caring. So many of you had touch my heart recently with all your words and sometimes that is all what we need, compassionate words to make us feel better.

 

I have to say though that sometimes is better for a man not to get married if he can't take care of his family. Spiritually and materially.

It is very enlivening to learn that even a few compassionate words in cyberspace can provide a soothing, healing effect on our wounded hearts.

 

You raise a valid point regarding men being qualified both spiritually and materially before entering into married life. This hits home quite effectively as it pertains to my own fears/hesitations in pursuing marital bonds (both in the past and in the present.)

 

However, I might also add that in my own experience, as well as in observing the experiences of many of my godbrothers, it is often the case that one may be qualified spiritually, but not materially. Or vice versa. Or even that he may be qualified in both ways, but there may be some mild shortcomings which may be a source of disappointment for his wife. For instance, I have a dear friend who has faithfully provided for his wife and family for 2 decades, being the sole wage-earner of the family. (Keeping in mind that in this day and age, it generally requires 2 incomes to support a household.) And at the same time, he is a pukka brahmana who follows the 4 regs, chants his rounds, and studies scripture, encouraging his family members to do the same. His wife loves to travel to various festivals and places of pilgramage, and my friend always seems to somehow find a way to scrape up the money to finance these trips, even if he is unable to accompany her due to the demands of work. And yet, at one point just after returning home from one of her trips, she exploded on her husband viciously, lashing out with anger that was extremely hurtful and senseless. You see, her husband, not being perfect, (who is!), has this "defect" of being somewhat shy. He is not so much inclined to give public classes or lead public kirtans, despite the fact that he is quite eloquent and has quite a melodious voice. She faulted him for not being "like the other men." But of course, who can say what "defects" the other men may have which would offset their outgoing natures, (which I guess is an attractive quality to women.) The point being, I think that sometimes devotee women may be setting their expectations just a bit too high. Most of the devotee men I know are sensitive and caring souls, and are quite dedicated to their wives and families. Still, there is disappointment. But I suppose that is the nature of this material world.

 

I had an experience many, many years ago of having an engagement with a nice devotee lady. As is quite often the case when men and women associate together closely, falldowns are sometimes inevitable. In my own case, although infrequent, they were mutual. Afterwards, I would have to endure some heavy chastisement because I failed to "protect" her from her lust, that it was my duty to prevent any falldown, no matter how seducing or lusty she may have been. That I was directly responsible for her breaking the regulative principles. My "fire and butter" analogy was rejected outright. I was "the man" and I was supposed to "protect". Well, okay, so I decided I would muster up all the strength that I could, to not allow myself to be seduced. I would prove to her that I cared enough about her to "protect" her from her lust, even though my own spiritual strength was quite pathetic, to say the least. So, when the next "encounter" was about to happen, I didn't allow it to go further than a simple hug. The result? She became furious, and refused to speak to me for a period of time, thinking that I no longer found her to be attractive or desirable. It was a no-win situation.

 

Another example: A good friend of mine was faithfully married for many years (despite the fact that his wife had strained the marriage by once having had a brief affair with another man during their marriage). They had their occassional falldowns, (as is often the case), and the wife, like my ex-fiance, always blamed her husband. At one point, she even left him completely, to re-join the brahmacarini ashram, ultimately divorcing him. The result? Within a year, she had left the ashram to become a cocktail waitress and was sleeping freely with many karmi men, and taking cocaine. She was obviously a lusty woman, and clearly would have been better off sticking by the side of her loving husband, neophyte weaknesses and all.

 

JRdd's point about the karma thing was right on, I might add. It's worth repeating:

 

Yes and to be fair, some of us were men in previous lives who were taught the same evil things, so who knows where my own suffering in this life comes from. I do know that men also suffer, in their own ways. And sometimes their causes of suffering may be the opposite of some women's cause for suffering; the latter often suffers due to open and trusting hearts, capable of offering astonishing loyalty and service if only treated with respect, while the latter may be incapable even of opening their hearts, or very much afraid to (maybe they were the mistreated women before?) and thus suffer loneliness too. But whatever the past causes of present conditions, the cycle has to stop sometime [...]

Sincerely,

 

rishidas

[JRdd]

Hari bol, Rishi prabhu,

 

I jsut wrote this offline and now see there are new posts including yours. Just wanted to say I haven't read them yet and that this is in response to your earlier post.

 

 

Hare Krsna Rishi prabhu,

 

I also appreciate your inputs; it is truly these kind of honest exchanges which are the roads to our liberation from that which distracts us from our march back to Godhead. I know I may appear silly to some but still I must express my feelings, for I believe firmly in these reciprocations, which must not wait until we are able to exchange from an absolutely “pure” vision. We must share with each other NOW, from whatever standpoint we come from. With each other’s help, support, and honest feedbacks, we may more easily shed that which is unnecessary for our advancement, and/or find solutions for making adjustments which will help us do just that. And of course we are not talking about simply shedding anarthas, which is after all the natural result of developing enthusiasm, taste, for engaging ourselves in various ways in serving the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And we need to feel safe in sharing ourselves, without toxic shame. This is what I know, so this is what I share. We each have something special to share.

 

I find it easier to say these things on another forum I participate in, an egroup, as the devotees there are generally more mature than many here, and I am not talking about age necessarily, but attitude. I find that those who have been steadfast in their development of Krsna consciousness in true loving mood are much more natural in the realm of feelings, and show much more compassion, in general, than here, where some seem threatened by the world of emotions, and seem to expect us to not feel anything until that day when we are purely aligned in love with Krsna. This is artificial and oppressive, and serves nobody. I notice too that the spirit of compassion in that group of devotees extends not only to the individuals participating, but to the world at large, as far as yearning for and/or actively participating in spreading Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s message of love of Godhead. I am not saying that mood does not exist here–indeed, our moderator Jahnava Nitai himself is a wonderful example as an active participant in this beautiful mission–I am just making a generalisation to illustrate a point. That point being that there is nothing admirable about cold-hearted dealings among devotees; furthermore this does NOT prove renunciation, but rather its opposite, for being repelled is the flip side of being attracted. The devotee who acts magnanimously truly exemplifies our acharyas, for kindness and friendliness and compassionate dealings are actual signs of devotedness.

 

I did not mean to go on quite that long.

 

You said:

 

I appreciated your thoughtful and heartfelt expression of the need for devotees, especially those who are now estranged from the Temples and isolated around the world, finding personal association with one another. As we grow older, it seems that old friends gradually drift away due to various circumstances...attrition, if you will. Myself, I've more or less been content living single, mostly due to habit, although I'm certainly not without desires for association, companionship, and basic human affection.

 

And those desires should be at the center of any move toward gaining that association through partnership with the opposite sex. Not fulfillment of sexual needs, or to exploit one another, or in some other way minimize the sacredness of our relationships with other devotees. How we are in our friendships with other devotees may give us an idea of just what our attitudes may be in relationship with our spouses. If one knows true friendship there is a good chance that one can be a true friend in all types of relationships.

 

 

There's a part of me that feels that I would be greatly benefitted by having the association of a like-minded Vaishnavi. Another part of me, however, feels that I may just wind up committing offenses, or being a source of eventual disappointment to a potential Vaishnavi companion. Probably this fear has prevented me from actively pursuing such association, especially as I grow older.

 

Yes, sometimes our particular conditioning, or habitual self-talk, may indeed prevent us from being “marriage material”. If one is not driven to have a partner, if one’s mind is not drawn that way, and if one is doing fine without, then perhaps it is best not to disturb a good thing! However, if one can benefit from such association, and feels capable of committing to such a partnership, then there is something to seriously consider. But I do not think that it is healthy for one to stay in one’s own world of habits. One needs to earnestly extend oneself beyond that world, and find ways of making the sacrifice of taking more association into one’s life. Be that through intimate connecting with friends, partners, or children.

 

You sound like someone who has very much to offer in the way of companionship. I know for myself, living alone, I often eat bhoga, (out of laziness), which of course is sinful. But I know that were I married or were I to have the good fortune of daily association with a devotee friend, (or friends), that this friendship would save me from eating bhoga. I consider honoring prasadam to be such a critical and vital aspect of our Krsna Consciousness development and growth.

 

So true. And we need reminders of this type of thing. Similarly, I know I would benefit in the way of increased chanting, which I always find much easier to do when in the association of devotees. Cooking is less of a problem for I have a very hungry demanding Boy here, who seems to be working up an appetite playing His flute all the time. But sometimes He only gets oatmeal. So He is my friend, helping me in the prasadam realm. Apart from this perfect friend, who anyone like me isn’t always conscious of, friends can play the role of small parts of Krsna to each other, in carrying what they lack, offering strengths to the other’s weaknesses.

 

Sadly, it is rather difficult to link up with like-minded mates these days, when most of us are isolated from one another.

 

I thought of starting a website for this, but haven’t got too much of a clue how to start it. I do think that we need to look into the practical aspects of devotees linking up. But I do not know how it is possible, and am wondering if, for myself, I am meant to suffer this out til the end of this life. When I look at it frankly I think I can bite the bullet. Bite it I may but-- perhaps mainly because I am so geographically distant from devotees--I find it a hard bullet to swallow.

 

Sadder still that direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada must spend their final 20 or 30 years alone and isolated, when very possibly their association could very well have been beneficial for one another.

 

Now that is a vivid observation there. I want it to stand on its own. How many of us want to leave our bodies without devotees around us? This could very well happen. It probably has happened to some already.

 

I fully empathize with your situation. Women are not alone in this.

 

Oh for sure they’re not. That’s why the situation seems so ludicrous. I see fear, pride, so many other factors, and NOT renunciation, as the main reason so many of us aren’t married. Marriage indeed is generally recommended. True brahmacaris, sannyasis, and widows are few and far between. Yes I am advertising the merits of marriage. I feel it is a real and a mature thing to do. Among other merits, it gives a person the chance to know love for another devotee, the chance to become more sacrificing, the chance to become more humble, and the opportunity of benefiting the other devotee (male/female, doesn’t matter) by accepting their service.

 

For men, we also have the added pressure of the possible "embarrassment" of female association, as we have been taught for so many years that household life should be finished as we reach or approach the age of 50. On the other hand, there are extenuating circumstances these days which I feel should make it socially acceptable for allowing middle-age devotees to strike up relationships for the sake of obtaining sanga. (Especially when the alternative is utter isolationism.)

It's a real dilemma. And it's sad. Very sad.

 

I appreciate your honesty in bringing up this point. Surprises me that this pridefulness is still an issue. It is actually quite immature, on all levels. But true, it must have some bearing on the situation of isolation, for it was sunk into us at a very young age. As a woman, that particular hangup is not my area, but for sure there are blocks in me which I have no depth of perception to even see. Sometimes I even wonder if I have bene harmed so much in marriage that I am not qualified to be married. Other times I know I am still loyal and tender at heart, and capable of pulling it off. But I do know that my experiences have shown me that I can not marry without some feeling that love is there. Call me a romantic, but that is really not what I mean by love. In combination with love I also mean attraction and affinity, like-mindedness. No good coldly arranging for two people who have never met to be put together. That seems to rarely work these days. Reminds me of a time when a temple authority asked if I wanted to marry a particular devotee. When I said no, he told me this devotee was a great kirtan leader. Can you believe that. As if I would marry someone because of their position or how they were seen by others. Another time, years before this, an attempt was made to entice me by stating that the devotee was a temple president. No appeal, in and of itself. You don’t marry positions. You marry persons. This is personalism, after all.

 

 

Thanks for sharing, Rishi; I didn’t mean to go on so long, myself, but I am working offline and somehow let myself get swept into it. To the neglect of some other things I was going to do. But I feel this is a very important topic.

 

Aspiring to be the loyal servant of some tender hearted soul, in mutual pursuance of the only thing worth striving for,

Jayaradhe

 

[dasanudas]

:confused

I don't even go to Dharma Mela I experienced too much insult to those I dearly try to love there.I see some of these forums a little like temples and if those I have regard for are not given proper honor, then I don't feel comfortable going back there. I did go as far as the door but was told it would take a day to enter, so I thought it may have passed by then.

Anyway prabhu it sounds like you are one a'those sensitive new-age guys, or maybe old-age guy, or even one of us no-age ?????

God likes me when I work (just like m'wife)

But he gets bluer if I don't work, but He loves me when I sing.

Cheers.

\o/\o/

0 0

/ \/ \

 

 

[This message has been edited by dasanudas (edited 09-22-2001).]

[dasanudas]

That's united we dance

funny thing what kirtan does to your body, what to speak of the mind and soul.

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

[b...I said this in response:

Valaya, don't fall into the pity-party trap.

 

Ain't no Bosa Nova there,no Samba or Tango either.

 

By just withdrawing into a dejected state because"no on understands me"[pity-party]

you will find no happiness,i.e.no dancing,no joy..It takes two to Tango.

 

So what if she disagrees with you?That is her business.Maybe you can explain yourself to her and maybe not.If not then you just agree to disgree, not have an emotional breakdown.

 

Brace up brother.

That is one strength of yours I have always liked, Maitreya. Your assessment of the situation, coupled with your no-nonsense advice. Has not always felt perfectly comfortable, this mirroring, but has always been appreciated by me.

 

I was thinking after reading this about how everyone has something unique to offer the others. And how together, our inputs make a beautiful collage. So maybe I came in all mushy and soft with Valaya, then another comes in and balances that out with another perspective. Just like parents--the dad gives the firmness where the mom can not bring herself to; the mom gives more softness when the dad is not so inclined to give that.

 

Oh and in keeping with this thread, I can easily tie this in to the idea of the yin and the yang, how marriage facilitates balance. In any relationship, in fact, a person's different perspectives and strengths fill where the other is lacking. That is what friendly exchange is all about.

 

ys, JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

That's united we dance

funny thing what kirtan does to your body, what to speak of the mind and soul.

 

My heart needs enlarging

Where do i get one?

Does it work on the False ego?