False renunciation or true association?

[JRdd]

Originally posted by livingentity:

I tried really hard to find a cyber hug symbol but that proved futile.

 

You ARE a cyber hug, livingentity.

 

I have been finding the dharma mela increasingly difficult to follow so basically have not read it for a while. So I really don't know what has caused you this distress but don't let it bother you so much. Not everyone is going to agree with everyone and at some point in time it will be your turn.

 

I don't read much there at all, since the last zigzaggy winding path. Also I never quite got my taste back since that which Mr das refers to happened. (take that sentence apart, Stoney or Animesh) As for disagreements, none better than my closest friend of twenty or more years for giving me a strong perspective on how we can disagree like anything, but still be civil and--more than that--still love each other. I sure don't like to argue, but I find disagreements enlivening when they are enlightening. When they are not, they may be at least food for thought. And when they are not even that, I move on to something else. Oh and in tying that in with this thread, that is how a good marriage works too.

 

I read your posts and feel that you have some very valid input and hope that the disagreement on the dm does not stop you from posting.

 

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep on associating on the forums.

 

\ /

(hug)

 

Ditto. Get back in the saddle matey.

 

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by JRdd:

I don't read much there at all [Dharma-mela], since the last zigzaggy winding path. Also I never quite got my taste back since that which Mr das refers to happened. (take that sentence apart, Stoney or Animesh)

 

Stone: Naw--I'll let it go. The sentence seems quite clear to me. I could revise it (I've done a lot of editing work), but there's just no need. A BBT editor once called me a fellwo grammarian, but I see myself as a teacher and writer, not a grammarian.

 

JR: As for disagreements, none better than my closest friend of twenty or more years for giving me a strong perspective on how we can disagree like anything, but still be civil and--more than that--still love each other. I sure don't like to argue, but I find disagreements enlivening when they are enlightening. When they are not, they may be at least food for thought. And when they are not even that, I move on to something else.

 

Stone: We hope the discussions will shed at least as much light as heat (though we see this is not as common as we hope).

 

JR: Oh and in tying that in with this thread, that is how a good marriage works too.

 

Stone: I think there's a lot to this. It's not that my wife and I haven't had disagreements, even plain old fights, over the years. It's that we have used them to make our relationship stronger, more real.

 

[rishidas]

Dear Mother Jaya Radhe dasi,

 

 

I just now read your reply to my earlier posting. I thank you for your warm, heartfelt, honest, compassionate, and Krsna Conscious reply. I was touched. I am unable to do justice by replying to such a nice message at this time, mostly due to time constraints. I will hopefully be able to reply at a later time, perhaps within a few days. But again, thankyou so much. It is a rare treat to see such friendly Krsna Conscious personalism in cyberspace. For so long, most of what I saw on the VNN forums and a couple of other sites was just impersonal bickering. (And I must admit that I was also guilty of engaging in this myself.) How refreshing to be able to share a heartfelt exchange for once.

 

I hope my posting from earlier today (which you stated you hadn't yet read) wasn't in bad taste or offensive to you or anyone else.

 

Haribol,

 

 

rishidas

 

[livingentity]

Originally posted by JRdd:

 

You ARE a cyber hug, livingentity.

 

[This message has been edited by livingentity (edited 09-22-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by livingentity (edited 09-22-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by JRdd:

My heart needs enlarging

Where do i get one?

Does it work on the False ego?

 

 

Cheeky cheeks!

I see your dimples.

 

 

[JRdd]

Dear Valaya prabhu,

 

I seem to be doing a miserable job of communicating with others, and I am sorry if I did not convey to you clearly enough in my previous post the empathy I feel. I told you I felt you were posting in the spirit of unifying, and I apologise to anyone who needs it for not having the intelligence to understand the intricacies of what is being discussed there. I did not even have an interest in reading the thread, and only opened it because my attention was brought to it.

 

I hear you wholeheartedly when you say the following things; in fact it is almost as if we have already discussed this, so much do your feelings match mine, and so much in line they are with the mood with which I started this thread. You say:

 

It is most unfortunate that we appear unable to share each others' loads, because therein lies the secret of connecting; not only with each other, but also with Sri Guru and Srimati Radharani.

 

megamaha dittoes!!!

 

One who can abandon another to their fate, rationalize from a distance or, worst of all, justify their lack of personal involvement while preaching from scripture, really has no connection at all.

 

I hear you! Millions more megamaha dittoes! And if I sometimes fall into that category myself, please forgive me. But I do in my personal life tend to practice a life of INVOLVEMENT with others. I am far from detached, and have enormous appreciation for my friends.

 

Those who are willing to risk everything out of love, who in fact have no choice because their hearts overide their minds, who in spite of realizing their complete lack of any qualification still attempt to help in any way they can, are actually possessed by the service attitude that can lead quickly to pure devotion. All that is then required is to dovetail with the devotees, gurudev and Sri Radha.

 

Wonderful realisations here, and wonderfully put, too. I thank you for your courage, and hope you can bear a few more monster-sized dittoes for this one.

 

The way, the means and the end are here and now for all to surrender to. Otherwise it is possible to linger about for countless lifetimes, taking what is of use to the false ego and remaining detached from reality internally, while going through the motions externally; all the while choosing what is pleasurable and avoiding that which brings pain or discomfort.

 

These points are sooooo important to anyone aspiring for personalism-hood. Blows my mind when devotees treat each other like robots. Like none of us have feelings. Like we are to be mistrusted instead of believed. Like we are out to get what we want for ourselves when extending friendship freely. This is the sad state of the conditioned soul. And I pray we all grow further and further away from this terrible and condition which opposes love, by developing a taste for relishing good association and seeing it as a true gift from Krsna.

 

That is the difference between religion and relationship, personal and impersonal. Sacrifice is one thing, but for what and for who? In the end those who hold onto their little selves will lose everything while those who are somehow able to give up themselves, as opposed to simply give of themselves, will achieve realization of the higher self. That is the gist of what Lord Jesus said and, of course, it holds true for all on the path of devotional service as well.

 

There is nothing I can add to that. I know that I think I give myself freely, but the more layers that come off me, the more I can see that there are still more layers.

 

What's to lose? Everything! What's to be gained? More than could possibly be imagined from our fearful limited vantage point in this miserable world. Faith, prabhus, not in ourselves, but in that highest Love Divine which has been spread before us like a feast; not to devour for ourselves, but to give away to each other.

 

megamillions monster dittoes etc...

 

Don't go nuts, prabhu. Keep sharing and there will always be some who reciprocate. Scary world here, but we gotta bite the bullet and forge ahead.

 

love, Jayaradhe

 

(edited for html errors)

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-22-2001).]

[JRdd]

Dear Rishi prabhu and other devotees,

 

You brought up important points, not least of which is that all-time marriage breaker: faultfinding. I find it interesting too in these discussions that one can often replace the word “marriage” with “spiritual growth” and the truths still hold. Indeed when marriage has Krsna at its center it is the vehicle for, and is therefore nondifferent from, spiritual growth. I’m glad this thread is evolving from its starting point of my perspective to a wider perspective. Sometimes our points are valid from all sides (both genders) and sometimes they are seen more in one gender than the other. Discussing this from these various angles contributes to a greater understanding of the problems and, hopefully, solutions to those problems. And even if some of us will never again be married, we may come up with ways to help those who will. At the very least, our experiences or concerns may trigger thoughtfulness in others. In any case, it is our job to share our experiences and wisdom.

 

The stories of your friends who have been treated badly are moving. (Also frustrating, as how I would appreciate a loyal supportive husband--so long as he was kind and affectionate too!) The attitude that a husband should have an outgoing nature is ludicrous. This same person would criticise her outgoing husband for his particular qualities. Good combinations can come from outgoing wife/ shy husband, or shy wife/outgoing husband, or shy wife/shy husband, etc. This grass is always greener attitude is most immature and people who have it should never have married in the first place. They are living in a dream world. Anyone seeking the perfect Cinderella or Prince Charming best stick to their comics or better yet invest in a door-sized mirror. Their unrealistic, immature attitudes are self-serving, the very antithesis of bhakti, the process of serving the Lord and His devotees. How shallow can a person get? And what blows my mind is that devotees do this–supposedly deep-thinkers, people you would expect to be less superficial. To me people seem beautiful when they are serving Krsna or His devotees. How someone could criticise external personality--especially when we are personalists, supposedly embracing each other’s individual expressions of Krsna--is beyond me. This shallow attitude affects me to the point where I sometimes feel as if no one will want me when my body starts looking old (I look young for my age but it’s only a matter of time), and then I wouldn’t want to be with someone with that attitude anyway. If this bodily-consciousness disease is to be the focus you can leave me out. I would find better association in my self than with such a person.

 

Your story of the other blaming you for her own part in falling short of the mark also shows the denial of this other person. Relationships end because someone is acting out of false ego, pointing the finger, rather than looking inward. There has just GOT to be more cooperation than this, and more care for each other. Or we will not get very far in our advancement. We are certainly not pleasing Sri Guru when we remain on this platform.

 

Faultfinding is the big illusion of the ego and the crux of why there is rampant disharmony both im marriages and relationships in general. When you are endeared to someone--that is, when people are bound to each other with their core aim to make spiritual progress, making God their center--mutual appreciation grows rather than diminishes. It is a truly tragic misunderstanding to construe growing closer to Krsna as growing away from those one engages devotionally alongside. Devotees should be able, then, to gauge their emphasis by their attitudes toward their spouse, or other devotees. This is why marriages fail, friendships do not endure, and families are dysfunctional, spiritually bereft.

 

Yes marriage is about serving each other. We don’t get to decide what level the other person is on, or whether that person is worthy of our service. We simply serve without cluttering our hearts and minds with such speculations or trying to play Supersoul. This is the opposite of fault-finding. Upon entering that sacred relationship, centered around God, one assumes the perspective of appreciating the devotee-ness in that other person. External, temporary conditions are forgiven, overlooked. (Not that there won’t be some angst, arguments, or searches for how to compromise and improve, but that is another point, that could also be discussed in this thread). I don’t have the exact quote at hand, but I remember as a young devotee being told that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (I think it was) said that “While I am finding fault with my Godbrothers, they are all making advancement, while I stay behind.” (Paraphrasing that, and of course we know the acarya says such a thing as an example). That always stayed with me. Do we want to cut off our noses to spite our faces? One cuts off one’s own nose when finding fault with another person. This may be more clearly understood when we look at how children are impressed, at an early age, with the feedback they are given, and how this shows later in life when they are adults. A good parent doesn’t concentrate on the child’s shortcomings but rather focuses on his/her strengths, while also offering positive feedback and positive engagement. I’ve quoted this many times but feel I can’t quote it too many times, as in the Beatles’ song “All You Need Is Love”; here is a definition of love according M Scott Peck, in his book The Road Less Traveled:

 

The will to extend one’s self for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth.

Peck elaborates on this for several pages, and here is one of his comments: “...it may be noticed that, as defined, love is a strangely circular process. For the process of extending one’s self is an evolutionary process. When one has successfully extended one’s limits, one has then grown into a larger state of being. Thus the act of loving is an act of self-evolution even when the purpose of the act is someone else’s growth....”

 

I like this thread because if we look again at the title, False Renunciation or True Association, we can see how it applies universally, not just in marriage relationships, an issue which was my springboard in starting this thread. So anyone can benefit by delving into these matters, and hopefully more will give input on the overall theme being discussed here. We talk about community, well it doesn’t happen, in a functional, lasting and effective way without these basic things, about how we relate with each other, healed. Healthy relationships make healthy community. There is just no getting around it.

 

Healthy relationships nurture everything that is good. I have a strong feeling about this, and this is backed by the teachings of our line, which encourage healthy God-centered relationships and discourage other types of mingling in this world. We only have to look at Nectar of Instruction, Text Four, to immediately see the truth in this. (That text alone is worth analysis–what is meant by association, confidentiality, etc.–and deserves its own thread.) The theme of that text is sharing. Sharing the best that we have–the process of reawakening our dormant love for God.

 

Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one’s mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasad and offering prasad are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another.

Just look at the sweetness of that! We don’t have to wait until we are one hundred percent pure to experience the mood of Caitanya’s pastimes. Srila Prabhupada said charity begins at home. So come on, folks, let’s put our actions where our mouths are. {b]LOVING EXCHANGES!

 

People living together, whether as roommates, or communally, or as spouses, should be willing to both tolerate and compromise. It’s great hearing from longtime married people like Stoney, who give experiential perspective on cooperation within marriage. People must be realistic. It is a given, and this must be understood by both, that every one in this world has quirks, expectations, and anartha. Good partners do not dwell on these shortcomings or shame each other for having them, but rather strive to offer something better, understanding that with higher taste, the lower drops away. And especially now when so many devotees are dispersed and find themselves in varying lifestyles and levels of surrender to the process, I would say that it is important, before marrying, that they be familiar with each other’s weaknesses as well as strengths, and decide how much and what they are willing to live with, and if their lifestyles and attitudes match closely enough to be manageable. For example, if my prospective spouse insisted I had to rise at three every morning, I would find that a bit threatening. Less threatening, and more natural, would be to follow his lead, being inspired by his example. No one should ever try to force another person. One should consider how staunch or laid-back each is in relation to the other, and consider if they can--or are willing to--work with this or not. So many things have to be looked at. But fault finding should never be indulged in. I lived with it daily for eight “soul-killing” years, and even lost the heart to cook, which I was known for, due to the prasadam being regularly criticised, even as we partook!

 

Once again I have gone on longer than I meant to, so I’ll close for now. So many things can be discussed. I am thinking of the topics of self-centeredness, springing from this fault-finding process, the topic of fighting as not to be taken seriously, of loyalty, so many things to talk about concerning enriching relationships.

 

Thanks, Jayaradhe

 

(edited to add the phrase LOVING EXCHANGES!)

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-23-2001).]

[JRdd]

Prabhus,

 

I am trying to stay fresh here, write honestly and naturally without feeling daunted by this public platform and by the piercing arrows that I know are there because I feel them: those arrows of judgements by others. That is one of my great anarthas: to be affected by other people's thoughts. And the curse on top of that is that I am psychically sensitive to these thoughts and intentions of others. So this is a personal battlefield for me, meaning I am really trying hard to be brave here by speaking forthrightly, by giving it all I've got and not watering it down due to fears and false ego and a tendency to lethargy. I am so encouraged when someone posts clearly and frankly as has Rishi prabhu, and others too, and it in turn heartens me to consider that my frankness may also be speaking to someone out there/in here. So please will any more soldiers step forward and help us here with the onslaughts of Maya's tricksters? Of course in this battle even if you are reading but not posting you are helping the cause, for in this realm it's all equal under the flower-strewn umbrella of devotional service.

 

So with that diversion out of the way....Well I may have run out of stream now; it is quite late but I got this burst, that I had to come write down. I so look forward to the day when we are all part of a most powerful and functional family, visible again on the streets of the world, shining to compete with the Sun. We will distribute barrelfuls of prasadam in meadows in the sun, perform plays and dances, sing bhajans and harinam, distribute Peace Formulas and wonderful books, take mahaprasad, attend all the places of learning and give talks and kirtans and demonstrations, hold japa workshops, eat lots of prasadam, make garlands for the Deities, and be full of smiles and hugs. All of this will happy, when we become simple again, like children, and open our hearts.

 

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! All glories to the devotees!

 

aspiring to give this (and all my rightful endeavours) all I've got,

Jayaradhe

 

[Maitreya]

 

This is an important verse that JRdd has posted concerning developing relationships in Krishna consciousness.

 

 

Offering gifts in charity, accepting charitable gifts, revealing one’s mind in confidence, inquiring confidentially, accepting prasad and offering prasad are the six symptoms of love shared by one devotee and another. Text four The Nectar of Instruction

I would like to bring out a point on confidentiality.I have noticed that trust is vital before one can speak confidentialy to another.

 

So a question most of us could ask ourselves is;"Am I trustworthy?".

 

[valaya]

For love to grow, a leap of faith is always required. Without risk, it would become more of a business transaction. Do we give in order to receive, or does the giving itself become the receiving? Our only relationship is with God! Love and fear cannot co-exist simultaneously. RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-24-2001).]

[valaya]

Of course I can only speak from the personal perspective of my own life experience, but I've found that when certain people risk investing their trust in me, I seem to actually become more trustworthy. Perhaps because I respect and admire them in some way, I want to live up to their expectations.

 

I do believe that others' expectations of us directly affect our perception of ourselves, which is automatically reflected in our behavior. If I truly believe in God's love, all else must surely follow, including trust in others.

 

The question arises again, are we investing with the prospect of some personal benefit, or in service to the whole out of a higher love for God? Is not causeless Divine Grace an investment in us all, indiscriminately?

 

If we are to actually realize our oneness and truly identify with each other, somehow the gap that separates us must be bridged. When someone extends their hand in friendship, shall we then examine it with our handy little magnifying glass for infectious germs? RR

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

This is an important verse that JRdd has posted concerning developing relationships in Krishna consciousness.

 

 

I would like to bring out a point on confidentiality.I have noticed that trust is vital before one can speak confidentialy to another.

 

So a question most of us could ask ourselves is;"Am I trustworthy?".

I agree full-heartedly, and am glad you too are reflecting on this. May I add a thought to this:

 

To trust somebody means listening to one's heart, and weighing up what one knows about a friend, before jumping to conclusions about them.

 

Something else I have learned through observation and experience: When one withholds trust, and is suspicious by nature or habit, perhaps due to past experiences, one him/herself becomes untrustworthy as a streadfast friend. This is the self-fulfilling prophecy syndrome.

 

A little side thought: If one's private confidings have been betrayed, one is sorry for having made that mistake, and will not confide in that person again. However, this is not a serious trust issue, nor does it mean that the betrayer is ill-motivated. Things happen.

 

And last but not least:

 

Ultimately, none of us in the conditioned state is fully trustworthy, being prone as we are to the four defects. Therefore it would serve our best interests, for the sake of community, the smaller family, and also our one on one relationships--for the sake of unity, in other words--to let forgiveness and not suspiciousness be our guiding star. Otherwise we miss so much, and devalue what is actually precious.

 

Trusting in others requires a leap for many of us. There are rewards in that leap, however, beyond what our present hearts' conditions can conceive of.

 

Just some things that hit me, pertaining to events in my personal life. Don't know if I conveyed them well enough to strike a chord with anyone else.

 

sincerely, Jayaradhe

 

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by valaya:

Of course I can only speak from the personal perspective of my own life experience, but I've found that when certain people risk investing their trust in me, I seem to actually become more trustworthy. Perhaps because I respect and admire them in some way, I want to live up to their expectations.

Well valaya I think the last sentence is really my point.How did you come to respect and admire them in some way?From both sides of the relationship their is an examination, an evaluation of each other.This may not sound spontaneous enough for some, or in line with what some folks view is on 'coming from the heart'.But just remember this is the world of illusion.Trusting blindly in anyone and everyone that says they are your friend is a receipe for disaster.

I do believe that others' expectations of us directly affect our perception of ourselves, which is automatically reflected in our behavior. If I truly believe in God's love, all else must surely follow, including trust in others.

Trust in those worthy of trust.

"Be harmless as doves and wise as serpents."

 

 

[dasanudas]

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

My view is that trust is something that is earned and grows.That it needs to be nourished along.Earned as I said and not demanded from or given to someone blindly.

Absolutely. Otherwise what is that trust? But sometimes, as implied in Valaya's post, a certain amount of leap is required (a term I also used, in my previous post, before I saw his post). We trust unless and until we are repeatedly betrayed. Myself, when I feel a confidence has inadvertantly been betrayed, I ask my friend about it, and if I am assured that it will not happen again, then I continue to trust that friend. If we expect perfection in others we will end up with no close friends at all.

 

And how long does it take to build trust is another point to consider. Longer for some than others. I can appreciate that. Myself I tend to live by the premise of trusting until I have been given reason not to. It's just the way I am. I always approach with an open heart and assume the best in people.

 

For example;if someone is given to gossip,and you know this, are you likely to take that person into your confidence?I think not.The very word confidence implies trust.

 

I am not sure what you mean by gossip. Do you mean when one woman shares her feelings with another woman? Women do this, more than men, so I am not sure if this is what you are referring to, this confiding one's feelings. When we share our feelings with someone we trust, we are then more easily able to move on. Just by having that listening ear. However, I recently confided in someone spontaneously, not knowing that the person would not only speak about this to a third party, but also mix up what was said and thus misrepresent me to that person. She meant well, however, so I forgive that, but I will certainly think twice next time. Now this third person, unfortunately, a friend of mine (or so I thought) chose to abruptly cut off our friendship, and not trust me anymore due to the mistake made by the woman I confided in. I chose to forgive in this instance--even though this "betrayal" cost me a friend (?)--while the "friend" chose not to forgive. This is an illustration of an actual ability to trust, apart from the issue of whether trust has been earned or not.

 

From the American Heritage Dictionary.

 

Confidence 1.Trust or reliance:I am placing my confidence in you. 2.Trusting relationship:took him into my confidence etc.

 

Confide:1.To tell something in confidence.2.To put into anothers keeping;entrust.3.To tell private matters in confidence.

 

It seems you feel betrayed. Did you yourself confide in somebody? Of course, I am not aware of your having confided anything to anyone, least of all me, nor is it my business, but I do hope I am understanding your point enough to be of value in this discussion. Letting off steam is useless if there is no opening for feedback.

 

Trust is an essential foundation stone for true friendship as I see it.More than just sharing the same belief system.

 

Of course! We are so fortunate to be able to trust and to have true friendships, aren't we? For me nothing can compare with the depths of my longlasting friendships with a few gems in my life. Once tasting that, one aspires for no less!

 

People can all work together towards a specific goal without developing this type of relationship. Building a church or temple and being friendly while doing it is one thing. But I feel something much deeper is being meant in this verse.Something not tossed about lightly.

 

I have not seen anyone tossing it about lightly so I am not sure what you are driving at here. It might be useful to share more insights you have gained from your own experiences with deep relationships.

thanks, JR

 

 

[dasanudas]

[valaya]

 

O.K. dasanudas prabhu, that's enough funny faces from you...can't you see we're trying to have a serious conversation here on delicate matters? Don't make me have to come down there and give you what for!

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-24-2001).]

[dasanudas]

\o/\o/

{ } O

/ \/ \

 

Can't wait!

Continue.

 

[JRdd]

LOL mr das! You know what I said about whatever you think is going on it isnt? well it isnt hahaha! So yourself!

 

Where is that contraption thingie that helps the false ego? I wanna knock someoone over the head with it right about now! (no, not myself--i dont have any false ego!)

 

 

[livingentity]

Originally posted by JRdd:

LOL mr das! You know what I said about whatever you think is going on it isnt? well it isnt hahaha! So yourself!

 

Where is that contraption thingie that helps the false ego? I wanna knock someoone over the head with it right about now! (no, not myself--i dont have any false ego!)

 

 

 

[JRdd]

Maitreya, it occurs to me that you may be speaking about someone here on the forum. Forgive me if I am wrong. But if I'm right, have you communicated properly with this person, in private? Seems it may be more appropriate to put this to him one on one than in this indirect way, with no real cross-communication going on. I don't know if that person is reading this but if it was me, I know it pisses me off when someone shuts the door to communication then brings the problem to the public forum, as has happened to me in the past. If my humch is right, that you are indeed addressing this to someone here, it seems strange that you would do such, in light of your complaints about confidentiality. It doesn't help a thing to try and get the last word, and usually shows a person whose communication skills leave something to be desired. Or maybe you wish that person to come here to respond? If so, maybe the assembled devotees will faciliate.

 

JR

[suryaz]

Originally posted by Rishidas

It is very enlivening to learn that even a few compassionate words in cyberspace can provide a soothing, healing effect on our wounded hearts.

You raise a valid point regarding men being qualified both spiritually and materially before entering into married life. This hits home quite effectively as it pertains to my own fears/hesitations in pursuing marital bonds (both in the past and in the present.)

However, I might also add that in my own experience, as well as in observing the experiences of many of my godbrothers, it is often the case that one may be qualified spiritually, but not materially. Or vice versa. Or even that he may be qualified in both ways, but there may be some mild shortcomings which may be a source of disappointment for his wife. For instance, I have a dear friend who has faithfully provided for his wife and family for 2 decades, being the sole wage-earner of the family. (Keeping in mind that in this day and age, it generally requires 2 incomes to support a household.) And at the same time, he is a pukka brahmana who follows the 4 regs, chants his rounds, and studies scripture, encouraging his family members to do the same. His wife loves to travel to various festivals and places of pilgramage, and my friend always seems to somehow find a way to scrape up the money to finance these trips, even if he is unable to accompany her due to the demands of work. And yet, at one point just after returning home from one of her trips, she exploded on her husband viciously, lashing out with anger that was extremely hurtful and senseless. You see, her husband, not being perfect, (who is!), has this "defect" of being somewhat shy. He is not so much inclined to give public classes or lead public kirtans, despite the fact that he is quite eloquent and has quite a melodious voice. She faulted him for not being "like the other men." But of course, who can say what "defects" the other men may have which would offset their outgoing natures, (which I guess is an attractive quality to women.) The point being, I think that sometimes devotee women may be setting their expectations just a bit too high. Most of the devotee men I know are sensitive and caring souls, and are quite dedicated to their wives and families. Still, there is disappointment. But I suppose that is the nature of this material world.

I had an experience many, many years ago of having an engagement with a nice devotee lady. As is quite often the case when men and women associate together closely, falldowns are sometimes inevitable. In my own case, although infrequent, they were mutual. Afterwards, I would have to endure some heavy chastisement because I failed to "protect" her from her lust, that it was my duty to prevent any falldown, no matter how seducing or lusty she may have been. That I was directly responsible for her breaking the regulative principles. My "fire and butter" analogy was rejected outright. I was "the man" and I was supposed to "protect". Well, okay, so I decided I would muster up all the strength that I could, to not allow myself to be seduced. I would prove to her that I cared enough about her to "protect" her from her lust, even though my own spiritual strength was quite pathetic, to say the least. So, when the next "encounter" was about to happen, I didn't allow it to go further than a simple hug. The result? She became furious, and refused to speak to me for a period of time, thinking that I no longer found her to be attractive or desirable. It was a no-win situation.

Another example: A good friend of mine was faithfully married for many years (despite the fact that his wife had strained the marriage by once having had a brief affair with another man during their marriage). They had their occassional falldowns, (as is often the case), and the wife, like my ex-fiance, always blamed her husband. At one point, she even left him completely, to re-join the brahmacarini ashram, ultimately divorcing him. The result? Within a year, she had left the ashram to become a cocktail waitress and was sleeping freely with many karmi men, and taking cocaine. She was obviously a lusty woman, and clearly would have been better off sticking by the side of her loving husband, neophyte weaknesses and all....

Sincerely,

rishidas

...................................

Reply by Suryaz:

This is an interesting post and a very interesting use of language. .

Otherwise put –

For the most part of it, it is full of egotism, chauvinism and misogynistic intent of the most deplorable sort. It is full of adhasya. You present yourself as compassionate, humble and of course ever forbearing, the protector etc. etc., but you forgot the most basic thing, and your use of languages magnifies such. It is called honesty.

 

“To thine own self be true”. Even Shakespeare knew that.

 

The following is just one example from the post; but the whole post is set in the same linguistic framework and approach, at both macro and micro levels.

 

“My "fire and butter" analogy was rejected outright. I was "the man" and I was supposed to "protect". Well, okay, so I decided I would muster up all the strength that I could, to not allow myself to be seduced.”

 

“not allow myself to be seduced”. What ????? poor victimized Rishi

 

If your were truly honest to yourself, forbearing, humble and as perfect as you wish the reader to believe (although you do not directly say this), you would have said “not allow myself to be overcome to my own lust”. Instead you shifted the focus onto the female (creating the “other” as the character of lust) blaming her for your fall down (although you try to manipulate the language so that by common consent it appears, you so humbly say the opposite). Your chauvinism and misogynistic influences are evident here. You manipulate language to pull the wool over the eyes of most readers. Essentially you blame your girlfriend, although you say you do not. The first quality of a Brahman is satyum, is it not?.

 

Read Foucault for some inspiration on this. He might teach you a thing or two about honesty and language usage.

 

The use of language has had much to do with the way male-female relationships have been constructed in our society. Moreover is has much to do with the marriage breakdown and a relationship of mutual love (or the lack of it). To create a sense of the “other” as a form of lust, instead of being true to oneself, is to use the art of deception as an instrument of love (in your justification) - (which in itself is a contradiction in terms. It’s results are far from the art of love. More importantly, how can marriage (or any relationship for that matter) be fruitful if there are faulty foundations – whether gross or subtle.

 

Can there ever be true renunciation or true association if honesty is not built into the discourse?

 

Suryaz

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

LOL mr das! You know what I said about whatever you think is going on it isnt? well it isnt hahaha! So yourself!

 

 

True Mr.das, it isn't going on, but it is being attempted.

 

 

[valaya]

There is a simple way to deter seduction attempts, indeed eliminate them. Simply put, it's personal hygiene or more succinctly, a complete lack of it. Actually, it could be as easy as casual gaseous emissions at the loudest possible volume. In other words, let 'er rip! This works best when she has friends over...

 

Come to think of it though, I did know a `playful` wife that used to save her's all day until her husband was fast asleep beside her. Then she'd giggle while silently letting go, quickly pull the covers over his head and sit on his face laughing maniacaly! She was a petite woman and he was a really big guy, so what's a girl to do?

 

BTW, this was revealed to me in deepest confidence, so guess I really can't be trusted after all, prabhus...

[Maitreya]

Gee, thanks for sharing valaya.