False renunciation or true association?

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

True Mr.das, it isn't going on, but it is being attempted.

 

 

Oh do tell little Mr Supersoul! :0

 

 

[livingentity]

Huh?

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Gee, thanks for sharing valaya.

 

[Maitreya]

living entity

 

Sarcasm; just a touch.Not as much as JR's Mr.Supersoul comment.

 

[valaya]

...and here I thought I'd lighten things up! Maitreya, you're not under attack and we appreciate you just the way you are. Ladies please, let's not go overboard with the `dump on men` theme, eh? Considering the coming war, it might be best not to totally emasculate us just yet! A little teasing's o.k., but...

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-24-2001).]

[JRdd]

Originally posted by valaya:

...and here I thought I'd lighten things up! Maitreya, you're not under attack and we appreciate you just the way you are. Ladies please, let's not go overboard with the `dump on men` theme, eh? Considering the coming war, it might be best not to totally emasculate us just yet! A little teasing's o.k., but...

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-24-2001).]

 

Huh? Am I missing something here? Emasculate you?

 

I'm having a great time, myself! I am capalce of running circles, you know! Just keep trying me!

 

[Maitreya]

Some more thoughts on Friendships.I find that there are many levels to such relationships.

 

As I am one to be more cautious then some others who prefer the leap method I have had the experience of noticing some benefits by my approach.I can usually find a certain zone, a certain balance between closeness and distance by going slow.It may just be that with any particular two people there is a point that should be maintained, without pushing on any further.And I think that is fine.Are focus should be to push on to Krishna's feet, and assist others in that same Homeward march.

 

Everyone is an individual and so I expect that I will not have the same relationship with any two people.It is just a question of what depth can be achieved comfortably.It may be casual or somewhat closer.I don't try to structure them too much.These things are really much more natural than that.

 

Of course not all people will feel right taking this way as their own.

 

The main thing anyway is to help each other remember Krishna.Krishna is the center.He is Rasaraja.And all relationships with each other should flow around that reality.

 

As far as trust goes, I have said on many other occasions that I don't even trust 'myself'.Never trust someone who is not in control of their own senses.We act against our own self interest anytime we make any move that is not directed to Krishna's pleasure.

 

To the degree that we get connected up to the Lord, to that degree we will be able to be a real friend to someone else.

 

So that is what I am trying to say here.When we become trustworthy in Krishna's service to some degree, to that degree we will be friends to others.

 

Anything else is just an imitation and I am just sooo tired of my own pretense that it is becoming too hard to maintain.So please, no one trust me.Not at all.Your friend is Krishna and His servants.I came to this world just to exploit people like you.I have no good intentions towards you whatsoever.

 

I am however thinking about changing my lifeview in this regard.But until I do you would be best to keep a safe distance.

 

This is not self hatred or an attempt at playing humble.Just the raw truth of the matter as I see it.

 

Hare Krishna fellow souls.

 

As an aside I'm hearing that BeeGees song in my head.You know it. "You should be dancin' yea..."

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Huh? Am I missing something here? Emasculate you?

 

I'm having a great time, myself! I am capalce of running circles, you know! Just keep trying me!

Long as you're having a great time, JRdd prabhu, and Maitreya can "keep on dancing". After all, that is what's important, eh?

 

 

[JRdd]

Dear Maitreya prabhu,

 

This is a wonderful post! I appreciate all the thoughtfulness and depth you have gone into here.

 

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Some more thoughts on Friendships.I find that there are many levels to such relationships.

 

As I am one to be more cautious then some others who prefer the leap method I have had the experience of noticing some benefits by my approach.I can usually find a certain zone, a certain balance between closeness and distance by going slow.It may just be that with any particular two people there is a point that should be maintained, without pushing on any further.And I think that is fine.Are focus should be to push on to Krishna's feet, and assist others in that same Homeward march.

I also feel as you do, actually, and though I said I prefer the leap method, or at least I was born a leaper, I have learned by now to go slow, generally, although often I get an instant affinity with some Godsisters and it can feel like some old familial stuff. I don't get this with nonVaisnavas. But even so, sure, I have been let down at times, by others' disloyalties, but that is just life here, until we are freed from the modes, and there is no great harm in feeling some pain along the way of connecting with basically sincere devotees.

 

Everyone is an individual and so I expect that I will not have the same relationship with any two people.It is just a question of what depth can be achieved comfortably.It may be casual or somewhat closer.I don't try to structure them too much.These things are really much more natural than that.

 

Yes. You reiterate the same points I have been making on this thread. It is encouraging to get so much feedback on this subject matter. Also I too can't see relationships as being something formulaic, as I stated in one of my first posts on this thread. You don't force anyone; we as devotees know this more than most, when we know that Krsna Himself has given us free will to turn lovingly to Him.

 

However, one can also succumb to a certain resignation, where it is easier to retreat than bother with others. Getting back to the theme of this thread, I think that is what so often happens in marriages. People start taking each other for granted. That is the main malady of our society of devotees. People don't appreciate like they used to. Can hardly blame them or us though, in light of corruptions that we witnessed. But I think it is time for devotees to roll up their sleeves and band together. Not all of us keep a safe distance from each other just because we as conditioned souls are not completely trustworthy.

 

 

Of course not all people will feel right taking this way as their own.

 

The main thing anyway is to help each other remember Krishna.Krishna is the center.He is Rasaraja.And all relationships with each other should flow around that reality.

 

Yes. You are in line with the intent of this thread.

 

As far as trust goes, I have said on many other occasions that I don't even trust 'myself'.Never trust someone who is not in control of their own senses.We act against our own self interest anytime we make any move that is not directed to Krishna's pleasure.

 

Association of devotees is recommended to remind each other in ways that help us move away from that shaming mind prison. I really think we can get so neurotic (I know this one well!), so self-absorbed in how we fall short of the mark, instead of reflecting in an inspiring, empowering way--how can I serve Krsna? How can I serve guru?--that it really is a hell prison.

 

To the degree that we get connected up to the Lord, to that degree we will be able to be a real friend to someone else.

 

So that is what I am trying to say here.When we become trustworthy in Krishna's service to some degree, to that degree we will be friends to others.

 

That's what I said. And I also said we don't wait until we are one hundred percent there until we start connecting in real ways with devotees. It ain't gonna happen, prabhu. Without that association, that deep and honest association, we will be plodding along from here to eternity.

 

Anything else is just an imitation and I am just sooo tired of my own pretense that it is becoming too hard to maintain.

 

At times such as these a friend has cautioned me to not be so hard on myself. I offer you the same caution back. It is not pure humility so what is it? It is not encouraging so what is it? Brace up brother! Don't let shame get you down. There's a wonderful devotee crying out inside you to the world, and it's beautiful.

 

So please, no one trust me.Not at all.Your friend is Krishna and His servants.I came to this world just to exploit people like you.I have no good intentions towards you whatsoever.

 

I am however thinking about changing my lifeview in this regard.But until I do you would be best to keep a safe distance.

 

This is not self hatred or an attempt at playing humble.Just the raw truth of the matter as I see it.

 

Hare Krishna fellow souls.

 

I have to question this statement of yours, that you say is not false humility or self-hatred; that is, that you have no good intentions toward anybody. If you really beleive that of yourself (I find that an astounding statement) then I could understand why you are so wary of others. It's called mirroring.

 

Oh and what about the rest of us? Only you came to the world to exploit others? So we should all carry ten-foot poles? We should become the antithesis of the mood of Lord Caitanya. Srila Prabhupada said you act that way and you become that way (my wording, but total gist). I saw him lecture in LA about the young wife, for example, how they would get married very young, and the wife would not even know the husband, and yet by serving that husband she would develop love for him, naturally. This example applies to all our associations, whatever they are. We perfrom service and we develop affection. Just like when you mop the temple room floor your affection for Sri Sri Radha Gokulananda increases. So it is with the devotees. We have all tasted this, you included. We shouldn't think our ineptness in this world prevents us from being worthy association if we are on the path and have something to share, be it our words, quotes, realisations, comfort, prasad, etc. etc.; the possibilities are endless.

 

Hare Krsna!

Jayaradhe

[Maitreya]

My view is that trust is something that is earned and grows.That it needs to be nourished along.Earned as I said and not demanded from or given to someone blindly.

 

For example;if someone is given to gossip,and you know this, are you likely to take that person into your confidence?I think not.The very word confidence implies trust.

 

From the American Heritage Dictionary.

 

Confidence 1.Trust or reliance:I am placing my confidence in you. 2.Trusting relationship:took him into my confidence etc.

 

Confide:1.To tell something in confidence.2.To put into anothers keeping;entrust.3.To tell private matters in confidence.

 

Trust is an essential foundation stone for true friendship as I see it.More than just sharing the same belief system.

 

People can all work together towards a specific goal without developing this type of relationship.Building a church or temple and being friendly while doing it is one thing.But I feel something much deeper is being meant in this verse.Something not tossed about lightly.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

 

Any others?

 

Hare Krishna

 

[for hmtl]

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 09-24-2001).]

[JRdd]

Originally posted by valaya:

Long as you're having a great time, JRdd prabhu, and Maitreya can "keep on dancing". After all, that is what's important, eh?

 

 

Well, not really! But sometimes a little break is good now and then. However, don't get me wrong; I consider the subject matter of this thread vitally important. As you often say, we must as devotees somehow become more unified. And although this thread may at times concentrate on one area of unity, in the area of the Particular (i.e., marriage, or friendship, and sometimes a bit of parent/child stuff sprinkled in), in its context of being centred around Krsna, we naturally broaden into the Universal, the love and concern for other conditioned souls who we wish to share the nectar with. So we expand and contract, and weave in and out, creating a tapestry of understanding of cosmic Love. That, as you know, is where it's at. Forgive me if sometimes I turn cartwheels madly singing across the sky, silohuetted by the sun! I just can't help it!

 

[dasanudas]

All good fun amongst Godfriends. I've been finding great pleasure in your healthy exchanges, very mature. And heartening to see that a conversation doesn't degrade into an insulting match, you guys have been holding an amicable thread together thru a troubled time in the collective psyche of the jivas lately. At least the fellowship hasn't blown out into some of the nastiness of the past. And it is a credit to you all to keep that psychological skin glowing for all concerned As many cave in under these difficult pressures where we see the best and worst of the human spirit manifest,I've just been smiling at all the wonderful input. Don't stop now keep it comin'. Excuse me if my little smilies have been taken in different ways.

[JRdd]

I LOVE your smiles!!! They have spoken a lot louder and more melodically than our words! Keep 'em comin'. Nice to have that wellwishin' vibe around, that sees more in us than we do ourselves. I can really feel it, and as Valaya says, it helps bring out the better parts in me.

 

Plus I feel this bubble of love embracing this thread. I think there are remarkable breakthroughs going on. As for myself, I find these discussions incredibly healing, and intend to stick with this. Because I also think that if it is helping me, it must be helping others too, and that is so inspiring. Amazing how Krsna knows just what we need to hear to become detached from situations which no longer serve our higher good. We are simply surrounded by angels. My gratitude increases daily. Hope I can hang on to it at least a while, use it to establish stronger conections in sadhana and Deity worship and the highest charitable work of sharing this sublime secret of all secrets.

 

ys, Jayaradhe

[dasanudas]

[Arvindaksh das]

Originally posted by JRdd:

I am talking about (among other things) the futility in false renunciation--among men and women both.

sincerely,

Jayaradhe

Shri Shri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah !!!

 

Verse 6 / Chapter 3 of Shrimad Bhagvad Gita

 

"One who restrains the senses and organs of action, but whose mind dwells on sense objects, certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender."

 

 

arvindm@mantraonline.com

 

 

[Maitreya]

Bg. 3.7 - On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krsna consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior.

 

 

 

[valaya]

I see this more as a personal thread, where we can share intimate glimpses of each other, rather than making `objective` observations or speaking in `quote vs. quote`. The former is, of course, a lot more difficult than the latter, especially for some. However, it is also a lot more rewarding.

 

While voyeurs may experience life in some shadowy way, the real vital essence, which can only be gained by personal participation, is missed. To watch others' pour their hearts and souls out, even daring to applaud for more, without taking any personal risk by likewise contributing themselves, is simply miserly at best.

 

In the end, we get what we pay for, don't we? If we ever hope to relate on any real level with Radha-Krsna and between ourselves, methinks the ante will have to be upped considerably. Anyone else in? I'm ready to see you and raise you one, maybe two...RR

[JRdd]

Hari bol prabhus, I have moved the topic of mysogeny to a new thread called sixism and other topics. I was afraid this thread which has been so useful would get diverted by such sensitive topics. I haven't had time to read Rishi's reply but I want you to know, prabhu, that I felt the post was very harsh on you. Sorry I didn't respond yet about it but have been dealing with some very disrespectful behaviour cast my own way this week. When the going gets rough some very interesting things are revealed about people.

 

wellwishing friend,

Jayaradhe

[rishidas]

Dear Dasanudas prabhu and Jaya Radhe prabhu,

 

 

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga. Thankyou both so very much for your warm encouragement and friendly words. I will definitely try to stay on board. Actually, Suryaz' attack didn't bother me much at all, except in the sense that I had to take the time to reply/clarify my words at the expense of replying to JRdd's wonderful posts, which I am already several days late in responding to.

 

I consider this to be an important thread here, being that it attempts to address the situation of estranged or isolated devotees around the world who have little or no personal sanga with their godbrothers and godsisters. Also the protection and care for devotee women, who may no longer have any sort of protection available, whether from family or Temple communities.

 

Will write more later, although it may be a few days (again.)

 

In friendship,

 

rishidas

[M-dd]

Dear Rishi prabhu,

 

I've just finished reading this wonderful thread, full of great posts, and my first thanks also goes to Jayaradhe for her inspirational sharing. But my gratitude also goes to yourself and the other men here who have shared so kindly of them/yourselves.

 

I think your use of the word seduce was an unfortunate misnomer. It set off my alarm bells too, but I didn't find myself making the same drastic conclusions as Suryaz.

 

I have appreciated your posts here very very much. In fact one of my first impulses was to post and ask you where you lived geographically..........which is a rare reaction for me, thus quite significant of how much I perceived your gentleness and sincerity of intent.

 

I think I understand why Suryaz prabhu has reacted so sensitively to the term seduced, but I chose to interpret it as seduction by the material energies, not by the person who was your fiance', and I honestly believe that is how you meant it. Please continue to share with us here your much appreciated feelings and ideas on the topic. If Suryaz is carrying her own agenda of hurt from abuse, the compassion of devotee men can be a healing experience for her. If she has experienced serious abuse, she will be especially sensitive to any 'warning sign' and that is for her own soul's protection, and if she overshoots the mark, please be tolerant of her mistake with the compassion I am sure your heart feels. To remove oneself from possible future abuse women often need to be especially wary, and the desire to point out publicly the 'warning signs' is not only valid but necessary for growth sometimes. Perhaps you can be like a sponge to her and let this accusation go whilst continuing on your own contributions which hopefully will eventually show her that your intentions are not mysogenistic. You see, for a while during recovery from being victimized the jiva needs to be very strong against any sign of abusive intent. We all make mistakes. But an ex-abusee has to fight for his/her very soul, as the chains of abuse are none other than the gross entanglement of maya. It is especially hard for devotee women who have sincerely accepted their submissive role and then been seriously abused and exploited as a result. This phenomenon of abuse in ISKCON is unique in history, and the survivor women are battling against a maya so huge their very lives are often at stake, what to speak of their souls. The amount of serious abuse in ISKCON marriages is astounding, and it is very easy for us survivors to accidentally generalize too wide to the point of unfairness. I'm sure I have been guilty of this too. It's the pendulum, too far one way, then backlash. But a survivor will heal the most quickly if his/her foyeurs into the world are met with understanding and tolerance and gentle compassion.

 

I take Maitreya's point on trust, but it is too narrow for me. I'm always quick to trust, but I see this more as a reflection on my own trustworthiness than as a dysfunctional defect of character in a dance of soliciting abuse. Abusers always wish to blame the victim, and when all else fails it is 'our'(victim's) fault for placing trust in one not worthy of trust. However valid this may be according to some slokas we know, it can be a very destructive stance also, in that it can keep us seperate, when our only hope is always association. Who among us can succeed alone and without association? How many of us are isolated and chanting purely without influence of the readimade anarthas of our wonderful society in all it's glittery forms of tv fastfood soft beds and everything else and no one to answer to, or admit to, or be mirrored by? We do need each other, and we especially need to learn to share confidentially with each other. The risks are so worth it, it is sad to hear from some an unwillingness to extend trust. These topics of spiritual life we take for granted, ie. the love of Sri Sri Radha Krsna, are the most confidential, yet we are broadcasting them at the behest of our guru, so how can complementing that by sharing of ourselves in confidentiality be any less important? We are sharing a confidential journey which by it's very nature is the most confidential, yet it is our dharma to spread it far and wide. So I can see only ultimate benefit in our 'risky' sharing.

 

What are we to do? Trust no one? I can't buy that. We have to take some risks of trust if we are ever to grow. When it backfires, its a chance for us to go more deeply into our hearts. When it is met in kind, it is a chance to share our hearts ever more deeply with an/other wonderful heart/s, the true engagement of the soul.

 

Hoping to hear more of your wonderful contributions on this great thread,

Madhavi-devi dasi

 

 

[talasiga]

Rendez-vous

 

Upstream

bears are biting

the leaping salmon

Afterwards

a cautious feast

at the hilltop hive

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Audarya lila]

Thank you all for such a sharing and thoughtful thread.

 

Thought I would just comment a little bit about the sacrament of confession (or reconcilliation as it is now called). I have had many discussions with my wife with regard to confession and what the Gaudiya Vaishnava's do in this regard - in other words - is there an analogous sacrament in our tradition? What I have realized through these discussions and through taking my daughter to the classes leading up to her first confession is that the sacrament is very beautiful and requires not only introspection but a great deal of humility. It also involves quite a lot of austerity, tapa, which is how I explained the concept to my daughter. I told her about Lord Brahma sitting on the lotus in darkness and ignorance and hearing the word - tapa - and his performance of austerity which led to enlightenment. I don't know how many of you are ex-catholics, but for those that are, I want to tell you that the Catholic church has come a long way in the past few decades.

 

It takes a lot of courage to share with another person the faults we have and the fall downs that we experience in our journey. The rite of reconcilliation is really quite like the concept of revealing your heart and mind to Sri Guru or an advanced Vaishnava in order to make advancement and seek ways of improving your situation.

 

One of the problems I have felt exists within Iskcon and the society of devotees in general is that fall downs and detours from the path of devotion are seen in such a negative light that devotees would rather 'pretend' that they don't have problems than deal with their own personal realities and strive for the day when they are truly free from anarthas. I think that Rishi's sharing of his relationship with his fiance serves to illustrate this point.

 

It's a very interesting psychological dynamic. Catholics are told that they are sinners and that all are sinners. Of course we all know that Catholics are also very guilt ridden, but I don't think that they come close to the feelings of guilt and dejection of devotees who fall down. For Catholics there is the sacrament of reconcilliation where they can get spiritual counseling and work with their mentor through the years to improve themselves.

 

I really feel that we could learn a lot from them in this regard. Opening up the heart and admitting our own faults is so hard, but so necessary if we really want to progress in life.

 

On a completely differnt note, but certainly related to the topics in this thread, Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it. Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[JRdd]

Such wonderful posts, Madhavi and Audaryalila prabhus! Such fairness, sweetness, balance and truth. I have nothing to add to your comments at this time but wanted you to know I appreciate them. Keep em comin as Mr das says! I am glad you answered Rishi prabhu so wonderfully, Madhavi. Along with the truth in what you say, when we nurture each other by looking at our strengths, and calling for compassion in the face of the hurts so many of us have obviously experienced, as is being revealed in this thread, this goes a long long way in healing and growing spiritually. This is true association among devotees, not trying to tear someone down, and I delight in seeing it. Flowing along the river of this discussion this week, I have come from feeling devalued to feeling once again uplifted, heartened, and encouraged, in the glow of the loving and generous nature of the devotees here.

 

May Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga shine Their mercy on us all!

 

love, Jayaradhe

[valaya]

rishidas:

I consider this to be an important thread here, being that it attempts to address the situation of estranged or isolated devotees around the world who have little or no personal sanga with their godbrothers and godsisters.

Dear prabhu, Thank you for your honest personal contributions to this thread. Also thanks to Audarya lila dasa. I do hope that we can transcend blaming the male gender or particular individuals here and encourage the intimate emotional sharing that many of us find so difficult. RR

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Thank you all for such a sharing and thoughtful thread.

 

Stone sez: I also really appreciate this thread and was charmed by the candor--and vulnerability--of many of the posts. I'm in a situation where I'm figuring out how i might fit in among the devotees here on the Big Island. Because I'm sort of feeling things out, some devotees seem to be assuming one thing or another about my plans, which is often uncomfortable. I apparently don't feel quite comfortable enough to say, for example, that my wife and I are probably reticent about going in on land with other devotees, with all the possible consequences.

 

I'm also here alone. My wife is unable to come until January, and my daughters, now 22 and 25, may not come. (One may come here to finish her undergraduate degree; the other will probably move to England for graduate work.) So, whoever suggested getting away from our spouses--well, here I am. And I'm frankly better with my wife and not shy about admitting it.

 

Audarya-lila (what a nice name!): On a completely differnt note, but certainly related to the topics in this thread, Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it. Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Stone: Indeed, Srila Prabhupada says as much in at least one place (maybe I'll look it up when I get back to my hole in the wall). And we have some good examples among us. My friend Turiya das, and his wife Shaktimati, have always worked hard to preach and serve the Dhama, up to this day. They work together to run his mission, train his disciples, and serve the holy dhamas of Vrindavan and Jagannath Puri, and there's no reason for such preachers to artificially separate.

 

Just wanted to let y'all know I'm not just lurking.

[JRdd]

I think we're rolling around nicely, Valaya, also with thanks to you. As for attakcing any particular genders, I don't think that is happening on this thread, although sometimes examples may come up, such as when Rishi was honestly telling the experiences of his friends' abusive wives. But I don't consider that attacking. But sometimes it seems like when an example of a husband's abuse comes up, people think it is male-bashing. it's not. It's individual.

 

and I hope you are feeling fine and mellow tonight, with a heart that glows pink and warm and fuzzy....

 

Jayaradhe

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-25-2001).]