False renunciation or true association?

[valaya]

and I hope you are feeling fine and mellow tonight, with a heat that glows pink and warm and fuzzy....

Jayaradhe

No rest for the wicked, prabhu, but thanks for kind thoughts. RR

[animesh]

No rest for the wicked, prabhu, but thanks for kind thoughts. RR

 

Who is wicked?

[valaya]

Originally posted by animesh:

No rest for the wicked, prabhu, but thanks for kind thoughts. RR

 

Who is wicked?

Moi, prabhu, moi...

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by animesh:

No rest for the wicked, prabhu, but thanks for kind thoughts. RR

 

Who is wicked?

 

Tis the burning wick

that gives the light

 

Show me a diya that is not wicked

And I'll show you false renunciation

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 09-25-2001).]

[JRdd]

Hare Krsna, Stoney! I just saw this gem post; don't know how I missed it. Well it's sure great to hear from longtime married people on this thread. And glad you appreciate the candor and vulnerability, as I think when we get to that place we are connecting in rare and special ways. It can sometimes seem frightening maybe, to some anyway, but the rewards! Well without honesty, what would even be the point in opening our mouths in such a theme as this one. Really, it seems the only possible way to really dig into the issues covered, right down into them, deep. right to the very roots if we're lucky. How did this thorny bush grow? And how do I make this lovely creeper grow stronger? what do the thorns feed on, and what makes the flowers bud? Sometimes I get these wonderful little glimpses of some devotees here as being cute little babies, fresh and new, on the threshold of something new and soaring. That just makes me feel good all over!

 

Oh I hope Maitreya has the sublime time of his life in Vrindaban, where he is going on the first of October. He has never been to India.

 

Well, it's great to hear about Shaktimati and Turiya prabhus, and I wonder if they would have stayed so strong if apart. Somehow I seriously doubt it. I remember them from Berkeley. Turiya was so equa-magnanimous. I think he is a good example of the hard to imagine mixture of kindness and detachment. Those two waulities stand out for me in him. How can someone be detached yet warm simultaneously. Look at Turiya, and you will understand. We need acharyas in each other--to see the aspects of a devotee. If we look on everyone as a teacher--and that is true humility--we will always be learning something about ourselves. It is strange to me how much egos get in the way. that is what I am learning about myself on this thread, among other things. And marriage is particularly conducive to learning humility and generosity of spirit; you are right there with that other devotee. Being constantly mirrored. Supported. Serve. Serving. If that isn't a way to make advancement--constantly associating with and serving another devotee--I don't know what is.

 

Stoney, you mentioned feeling reticent about mentioning your reticense. ( play with that one) But I have talked to so many devotees who feel as you do, from all over the world. It is not uncommon to hesitate to a communal land situation. I myself woudl feel more comfortable if it was separate parcels, each owned individually. If you brought up the subject of your hesitation, you might find others feeling the same way (that's the way it usually works, I have found--me being ever the fool willing to open my mouth and admit things first). And once it is brought up, people will then be able to discuss it and find solutions if it is of general concern. It certainly seems, to me, to be a valid feeling you have, and an intelligent feeling too.

 

I loved this; it's so positive, and demonstrates at least two people who obviously put alot into their marriage:

 

Originally posted by stonehearted:

 

Yay! Down with half-heartedness!

 

I too appreciate very much this psot of Audarya-lila's:

 

Audarya-lila (what a nice name!):.. Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it. Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help."

 

This is personalism. And it's time for devotees to move away from the robot acceptance of what some fools made them believe, about shame and marriage and letting guilt because they are not pure devotees be their ruler, and use a little common sense. the process is sublime. and that is a fact. NOT JUST THE END. THE PROCESS!!! NOW! And if it isn't, then something is wrong. and then we have to make adjustments. Just keep move along. Not stand still--which is impossible to do, due to the law of entropy. We're either sliding back down that slippery slope, or we're defying gravity with our leaps and outstretched arms.

 

Gaura Premananda hari hari bol!

 

aspiring to jump up and down in eagerness to serve,

Jayaradhe

 

[talasiga]

Hey Sister !

Save the lecture

Give us some nectar !

 

[JRdd]

Yeah well you oughta go see what I did to yours!!!

[talasiga]

Well, well, well now

Is this the thanks I get

for setting you up for the

108 th post ?

 

 

Huh ?

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[rishidas]

Reply by Suryaz: This is an interesting post and a very interesting use of language. . Otherwise put – For the most part of it, it is full of egotism, chauvinism and misogynistic intent of the most deplorable sort. It is full of adhasya. You present yourself as compassionate, humble and of course ever forbearing, the protector etc. etc., but you forgot the most basic thing, and your use of languages magnifies such. It is called honesty.

 

“To thine own self be true”. Even Shakespeare knew that.

 

The following is just one example from the post; but the whole post is set in the same linguistic framework and approach, at both macro and micro levels.

 

“My "fire and butter" analogy was rejected outright. I was "the man" and I was supposed to "protect". Well, okay, so I decided I would muster up all the strength that I could, to not allow myself to be seduced.”

 

“not allow myself to be seduced”. What ????? poor victimized Rishi

 

If your were truly honest to yourself, forbearing, humble and as perfect as you wish the reader to believe (although you do not directly say this), you would have said “not allow myself to be overcome to my own lust”. Instead you shifted the focus onto the female (creating the “other” as the character of lust) blaming her for your fall down (although you try to manipulate the language so that by common consent it appears, you so humbly say the opposite). Your chauvinism and misogynistic influences are evident here. You manipulate language to pull the wool over the eyes of most readers. Essentially you blame your girlfriend, although you say you do not. The first quality of a Brahman is satyum, is it not?.

 

Read Foucault for some inspiration on this. He might teach you a thing or two about honesty and language usage.

 

The use of language has had much to do with the way male-female relationships have been constructed in our society. Moreover is has much to do with the marriage breakdown and a relationship of mutual love (or the lack of it). To create a sense of the “other” as a form of lust, instead of being true to oneself, is to use the art of deception as an instrument of love (in your justification) - (which in itself is a contradiction in terms. It’s results are far from the art of love. More importantly, how can marriage (or any relationship for that matter) be fruitful if there are faulty foundations – whether gross or subtle.

 

Can there ever be true renunciation or true association if honesty is not built into the discourse?

 

Suryaz

Thankyou for your kind words, Suryaz.

 

I was just catching up on all the posts here and ready to reply in length to Mother JayaRadhe dasi's excellent, well-thought out postings. But I was very surprised to see this attack. As JRdd has pointed out, it is beneficial to view these discussions from various viewpoints. Thus, I attempted, (rather miserably it appears), to add some food for thought, based upon my own experiences and from observing the experiences of others.

 

It appears that you are reading into my words what you will. It is a shame, as these are rather sensitive matters to discuss openly, (perhaps confidentially would be best, as Maitreya prabhu seems to be hinting.) I am willing to accept correction, (if I have erred) as well as some degree of reasonable and mild chastisement. (I have no interest in continuing this dialogue openly if such hostile attacks are to continue.) Not out of humility, (if I were actually humble, I would probably just ignore this attack instead of trying to defend myself!), but with a sincere mood of attempting to address many of these important issues, (which all too often seem to degrade into either extreme mysogeny or it's opposite, unrelenting male-bashing, neither of which will serve any positive, constructive purpose for illuminating the topic under discussion.)

 

As far as your example above, no, I was not at all blaming my fiance for the falldowns. If anything, she was by far the better devotee, being that she felt more guilty and depressed about the falldowns than did I. For that, I respect her, and am able to understand why she would feel the need to find a scapegoat, to blame me for the falldowns. Yes, I did use the word "seduce". But I did not mean that in the sense that I was blaming her or faulting her in any way. I clearly mentioned that the falldowns were mutual. Yes, I was seduced several times, and there is no need for me to go into any further detail about this. But I was not angry with her, nor was I blaming her, nor have I ever blamed her. I *allowed* myself to be seduced, and as they say, "it takes two to tango." The difference was, I didn't scapegoat her, nor did I blame her or become angry with her for the falldowns. I was not disappointed with her, nor did I consider her to be any less of a devotee because of the falldowns. I did not lash out at her for the falldowns, nor did I harrass her or try to humiliate her in any way. I didn't accuse her of being some sort of "mayadevi", nor did I lose respect for her as a devotee and as my friend and fiance. My mood was that we pick ourselves back up and get on with our devotional service. In striking contrast, her mood was to become so utterly depressed, morose, and disappointed over the falldowns that she would become bitter with me, greatly disappointed in me, holding a heavy grudge, that I was not strong enough to "protect her" from the falldowns, and I would therefore become the scapegoat, which as JRdd has pointed out, was simply denial. After the engagement was broken off, (her decision), she bad-mouthed me pretty good to the devotee community we were connected with. I was described by her to be nothing but a rascal, and someone who had "one thing on his mind, and one thing only." I honestly do not believe that this was an accurate depiction of our engagement. Nor do I believe that it was proper to publicly scapegoat me as she did. I was attached to her, and was trying to make the relationship work, and despite what you may think of me, was quite heartbroken that our friendship/engagement ended as it did. Yet despite all this, I easily forgave her, as I know that these were nothing more than knee-jerk reactions to her despondency over breaking the regulative principles while in my rotten association.

 

I've never thought of myself as a mysogenist, as you say. In fact, 20 years ago, when most husbands were ordering their wives around to "do this", "do that", "get me this", "get me that", I used to try to encourage my friends to ask nicely, instead of ordering and demanding, often treating their wives like slaves.

 

I'm sorry you have misunderstood my words. I wonder if this isn't a result of your own conditioning? There are, after all, people who are outright male-bashers and truly believe that 95% of the devotee men are incorrigible abusers of women. While I fully acknowledge that abuses and mistreatment have been committed, I also like to think that most devotee men, in my age group anyway, (note that I use the word devotee here, as I am not referring herein to those who may externally *appear* to be devotees) have matured over the years and have perhaps learned some valuable lessons, the hard way, (usually through painful divorces) that if they want a happy marriage, they'd better get their act together and treat their wives with honor, love, and respect.

 

I am by no means a humble devotee. Nor did I ever state or try to convey that I was a "protector". Quite the opposite, I failed miserably in protecting my fiance from our falldowns, as I have already admitted. (Is it possible that you are the one who is "manipulating" the language here?) But I am trying to be honest in these discussions. If I'm going to be viciously attacked while speaking honestly, as I try to share my input as JRdd has asked us to, then I will have to agree with Maitreya prabhu that some things are probably best discussed confidentially.

 

To Mother Jaya Radhe prabhu, I apologize, but I have temporarily lost interest in adding to the discussion, at least for today, despite the fact that I had just returned home from work all ready to reply in depth. At this time, all I can offer in the way of a reply is that I greatly *greatly* appreciate your deep and thoughtful insights and realizations. Especially on the subject of love, friends and/or mates giving of themselves freely with Krsna at the center. Your quotes from Scott Peck were much appreciated, although I have never read his material before. But I do share these ideals, as much as I may have fallen short of the mark in the past.

 

Begging for forgiveness for any offenses commmitted,

 

The most deplorable,

 

rishidas

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by rishidas (edited 09-25-2001).]

[JRdd]

I see!!!

Brother, for this you will not be sorry. I will come up with something better than the last. This is my vow.

[JRdd]

More risks. I would like to bring up a subject that may well land me in the hall of notoriety for naiveness. Can men and women be friends? I have always believed so, and have always had male friends. But something that recently happened is giving me pause for wonder, not for the first time either. So I will offer a bit of background:

 

The other day a friend asked how I felt about male friend. I told her I felt comfortable around him, that it was like being with a long lost brother. Nothing more, at least not at this point in time, I told her. However, she is a more conventional devotee than I, and as devotees often tend to jump to conclusions about male-female relationships, I have strong reasons to believe that she projected some of her own assumptions onto this person in a subsequent conversation she had with him. But as he will not talk to me directly about it, has cut off the communication channels, I can only guess that something like this happened. I have caught some comments of his that cause me to believe that he thinks I have intentions for him in my life. Although I am sad about this loss of friendship, if that is what it was, it is not a crippling sadness, for it was centred around Krsna consciousness, which is unaffected by external circumstances and remains with me (I was going to say “paltry as it is”, but immediately realized what an offensive thought that was–not humility at all–to believe that even a drop of Krsna consciuosness could be paltry!).

 

Okay that is the background, which spurs me to write this. Now here is the next: I want to explain how I feel about friendships, and attractions to others. If anyone can feedback on this I will listen. My stance (flexible to change of course) is this:

 

To become attracted to someone does not equal being out of control in that attraction, or projecting some future (such as marriage) in that attraction, any more that being attracted to or drawn to someone of the same gender means one has homosexual tendencies. I get enthused about my friendships, guess I go for it full hilt, like I do most things in my life, have never had time for boredom, and find acquaintances and grha-katha much less interesting. Now since I get attracted only to devotees, I see that attraction as being there due to the Supreme Lord’s all-attractive nature.

 

I think I make mistakes in judgement when naively thinking that my enthusiasm in a friendship with a male will not be taken as anything other that what it is at that moment. And especially naive when applying it amongst the extended family of devotees. I am unconventional, but I forget that we have backgrounds of brahmacari-brahmacarinihood which must influence at least to some degree the attitudes of many of us toward the opposite sex (or is this only a devotee thing?). But even in my devotional life I have had such a mix of associates to do service alongside; in the early days this was due to the more innocent brother/sister lifestyles in the temples, but also I have worked on creative projects, plays, and other services involving a freer mix of devotees. So I tend to see male devotees as my brothers, and until and unless anything develops to indicate another aspect to the relationship, I treat it as such–like siblings. A women friend here or there may sometimes like to tease, or press me for more information about such a friendship, because they really don’t understand that about me. I may even be attracted to that male friend, but it does not mean I have some intentions I project. That is not to say that the thought of marriage never occurs to me; yes, it does at times, but it is not a thought that carries me away with it. I do feel that I gain some benefit out of the yangness that comes from having a male friend. That I will admit. Being unmarried, one can use a bit of that, for balance. I often get sense talked into me by one of the opposite sex, or other feedbacks which are helpful. Men think differently than women. And have a different kind of intelligence.

 

Just like, I have friends who have wives. These friendships are safe, for both of us. For my part, I have always considered it most despicable when a woman comes between a husband and wife. Most despicable. In my long life of experience, I can say with confidence that you would never find me behaving in such a way as to attract a husband away from his wife. Though I have not had the opportunity for a real marriage, I consider marriages sacred. Similarly, you would not find me pushing myself at anyone, no matter how attracted I am, who makes it clear they are not interested in that way, and/or I don’t see them as marriage material, even though I am or have been attracted.

 

Attraction is there among devotees. That’s the way I see it. Some affinities are stronger than others. We gravitate toward “our own kind”. These are my feelings on friendships in general as well as friendships between male and female. So whenever I am fraternizing with the devotees, here or elsewhere, that does not mean I have plans or motivations in the friendships (even if I am not closed to the idea of marriage), I simply find some of you very attractive–actually all of you are, just some more than others, as per my own taste or inclinations (birds of a feather kind of thing)–and rest assured it is because you are devotees that makes you attractive to me. It makes all your other qualities, strengths, quirks, weaknesses alike, endearing to me.

 

I apologise with all my heart to anyone who feels I have represented myself differently from what I am attempting to convey in this post. I am the first to admit I may be at fault in regards to what very well may be a naive (unwise or unrealistic) outlook. And I invite anyone to offer their views on this particular matter of loving exchanges–friendships--between the genders. Is it playing with fire?

 

Thank you so much for listening.

 

aspiring to be increasingly useful,

Jayaradhe

 

(html edit)

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-26-2001).]

[JRdd]

Hare Krsna (above post got in here twice)

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-26-2001).]

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Thank you all for such a sharing and thoughtful thread.

 

Thought I would just comment a little bit about the sacrament of confession (or reconcilliation as it is now called).

 

Hare Krsna, Audaryalila prabhu,

 

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! Dandavats!

 

Your input continues to be so valuable to me, and so I am sure it is to others also. I wish we could all be together I mean in a physical room, where we could speak back and forth as we go along. Anyway I wanted to pull up this post again as it shines like a diamond, which could be the reason why no one has touched it yet.

 

Toxic shame and guilt bind us to this world, bind us to the psyches of our pasts. To top it all off, we often mistake these qualities for humility. It is a very fine line between spirit and matter. I walk that line all too often, and it seems that Krsna will have to carry me the rest of the way as my feet are getting too cut up to make it on my own. I am a bumbling and confused clown in this cosmos. These are my only two realisations: that I am a displaced fool who understands very little, and that Krsna is so kind and it is only by His causeless grace that I may be picked up out of this place. When I understand this I am free from the toxic kind of shame that prevents me from being honest about my position. It makes so much sense to me that there is a great facility in getting freed from the toxic bonds of this world by practicing confiding in one another--even sometimes publicly proclaming it too--about our state of consciousness. Then we know that our symptoms are universal and are simply a temporary condition, and that there is no need or usefulness in trying to pretend we are anything else. Conversely, that devotee who displays humility wins my respect, always. A very funny phenomena.

 

You said:

 

I have had many discussions with my wife with regard to confession and what the Gaudiya Vaishnava's do in this regard - in other words - is there an analogous sacrament in our tradition? What I have realized through these discussions and through taking my daughter to the classes leading up to her first confession is that the sacrament is very beautiful and requires not only introspection but a great deal of humility. It also involves quite a lot of austerity, tapa, which is how I explained the concept to my daughter. I told her about Lord Brahma sitting on the lotus in darkness and ignorance and hearing the word - tapa - and his performance of austerity which led to enlightenment. I don't know how many of you are ex-catholics, but for those that are, I want to tell you that the Catholic church has come a long way in the past few decades.

 

It takes a lot of courage to share with another person the faults we have and the fall downs that we experience in our journey. The rite of reconcilliation is really quite like the concept of revealing your heart and mind to Sri Guru or an advanced Vaishnava in order to make advancement and seek ways of improving your situation.

 

This is extremely interesting to me, and not only because I have a Catholic background too, and remember well the awe with which I received my First Holy Communion. (I was recently given a picture of me that day. Like a little angel.) I would be interested to hear how different it is now, for it does seem to go into more depth, as your post hints at. Who does the child talk with on this journey to making her first confession? And what are the austeries? Do you mean like saying the rosary? I would like to see how we as devotees can increase our ability to admit to ourselves, without discouragement, the realities in our thinking and thus move beyond false ego exhcnages with one another, which seek more to defend oneself than to make genuine breakthroughs with each other.

 

One of the problems I have felt exists within Iskcon and the society of devotees in general is that fall downs and detours from the path of devotion are seen in such a negative light that devotees would rather 'pretend' that they don't have problems than deal with their own personal realities and strive for the day when they are truly free from anarthas. I think that Rishi's sharing of his relationship with his fiance serves to illustrate this point.

 

Yes, and I was thinking as I read Rishi's story that how futile (besides being unfair, etc.) to harp on about acting human, for goodness sake. I mean it's not like we are on some perfect platform. Srila Prabhupada said like a toddler who, often falling while learning to walk, picks himself up again and keeprs trying, that is how we should be when we disappoint ourselves by our actions. Just keep going on with the process. It works. The process itself may be the atonement; what do you think? Certainly seems so to me, if the means equals the end. Every moment is an opportunity to be right There. Dwelling on our own or another's imperfections serves no purpose except to discourage us. It removes us from a loving aspect into one that seeks to punish (the self or another). I see harmonious relationships require the ability to love, support, and encourage one another, focusing positively and not on the things of this world, including our own obvious imperfections. My daughter and I have an understanding like this. Sometimes we may start to argue pettily, then one of us may see the ridiculousness of such an exercise, and turn it into a joke, sometimes by exaggerating the issue, other times by satirizing it, and sometimes simply by bursting into giggles. Immediate diffusion of the anger that had us in its thrall. Life is a stage, for sure. Life is ONLY a stage, a stage of real growth if we can just take that bull by the horns and shoot for the rhinoceros and rob the bank and not the corner store.

 

It's a very interesting psychological dynamic. Catholics are told that they are sinners and that all are sinners. Of course we all know that Catholics are also very guilt ridden, but I don't think that they come close to the feelings of guilt and dejection of devotees who fall down. For Catholics there is the sacrament of reconcilliation where they can get spiritual counseling and work with their mentor through the years to improve themselves.

 

Very interesting. My family are only showbottle Catholics who do not take advantage of these opportunites, so I did not know about this. Is the mentor a priest or nun? Or a lay person?

 

I really feel that we could learn a lot from them in this regard. Opening up the heart and admitting our own faults is so hard, but so necessary if we really want to progress in life.

 

You said it brother!!!

 

On a completely differnt note, but certainly related to the topics in this thread, Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it. Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

Very important point. We are, after all, personalists. No point in getting stuck on some tenet to the neglect of facilitating our Krsna conscious growth. Following the rules for the sake of following them....If we really care about our spiritual progress, we must understand it is not a cut and dried process, it is a matter of the heart.

 

Thanks for helping me keep my heart and blinkers open,

aspiring to be inspiring myself,

Jayaradhe

 

 

[valaya]

Hey JRdd, I didn't know you were a bank robber, too! How's about a heist sometime? RR

[talasiga]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Is it playing with fire?

 

 

For every two who bathe in friendship

Always one other whose heart does burn

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[dasanudas]

xcuse the belated response here guys but I wrote it straight after Audarya Prabhu posted and then got diverted for a day before I could return anyway looks like JR has seized the ball and danced with it,doesn't she get excited?

I had a few similar sparks along the same line. Maybe we should start a confessional booth here, any suggestions for a pastor?

Thank you all for such a sharing and thoughtful thread.

Das:Likewise

 

AL;Thought I would just comment a little bit about the sacrament of confession (or reconcilliation as it is now called). I have had many discussions with my wife with regard to confession and what the Gaudiya Vaishnava's do in this regard - in other words - is there an analogous sacrament in our tradition? What I have realized through these discussions and through taking my daughter to the classes leading up to her first confession is that the sacrament is very beautiful and requires not only introspection but a great deal of humility. It also involves quite a lot of austerity, tapa, which is how I explained the concept to my daughter. I told her about Lord Brahma sitting on the lotus in darkness and ignorance and hearing the word - tapa - and his performance of austerity which led to enlightenment. I don't know how many of you are ex-catholics, but for those that are, I want to tell you that the Catholic church has come a long way in the past few decades.

 

Das:I've often wondered alot about this topic, and it's interesting you brought it up, definately something missing in the Gaudiya tradition, that is councilling and confession, even tho we have sadhu sanga and sat sanga, ishta gosthi, we don't seem to utilize it correctly, to sound our deepest darkest secrets out for another trusted medium of God to empathize with. Somewhat like helping carry anothers load.

 

AL:It takes a lot of courage to share with another person the faults we have and the fall downs that we experience in our journey. The rite of reconcilliation is really quite like the concept of revealing your heart and mind to Sri Guru or an advanced Vaishnava in order to make advancement and seek ways of improving your situation.

 

Das:Generally our guru is there to give us solutions to our struggle and failings thru a positive injection of the beautiful knowledge of the Lords' world, and Their all merciful love for us. As our living guardians, if genuine, have that balm in their heart and this is the panacea for all ills and perplexing tribulations that plague this suffering animation.

But rarely do they address some of the niggly relationship problems we encounter, as they usually arn't there so much like marriage councillors, and little problem solvers. After all their service is to help deliver us from this whole material misconception, lock, stock and barrel, please note I'm not saying marriage is a material misconception. But I've always been taught to work my smaller dilemnas out with the congregation, not unload them on my master as much as I feel a need too at times. Generally they are carrying more than enough.

My wife often stresses the need for some objective councilling, when there arises an impasse in the healthy flow of our relationship, to untangle our locked horns.

But we being some of the more senior members in a congregation that we don't have any geographical contact with anyway. We often don't get third party input. And actually in our sanga we are looked up to as seniors for mature guiding relief to the younger couples how to navigate thru the maze of the trials marriage can present. Little do some realize we also need comfort and solace at times to strengthen our faith, resolve and our devotional bonds, to keep serving each other as the servants of the servants of Guru Gauranga and Radha Govinda, and we never cease to need all the help we can muster on this path we chose to share together. As there are always temptations and hurdles thrown up to test our endurance, committment and unconditional vows to each other.When it comes to confession which I've never done formally. As I've never practised Catholicism even tho I came from a strong Catholic background there was never any nectar so to speak in it for a little kid searching for joy. I'm sure it could be a cleansing experience to exorcise some of the ghosts in the closet, and in doing so move one closer to the Truth of who we are, as the anarthas are dissolved from the heart. Whether we need to spill on a priest or work it out with the Lord in our heart is probably a personal choice.

 

 

AL:It's a very interesting psychological dynamic. Catholics are told that they are sinners and that all are sinners. Of course we all know that Catholics are also very guilt ridden, but I don't think that they come close to the feelings of guilt and dejection of devotees who fall down. For Catholics there is the sacrament of reconcilliation where they can get spiritual counseling and work with their mentor through the years to improve themselves.

 

Das:This is definately lacking in the family of devotees to a degree. In a loose social sense maybe it is there, but not in any real formal structure within the temple, perhaps it is a little different in India. Ive only ever noticed it in Gaudiya Vaisnavism thru the example of Sanatan Goswami who councilled all the villagers of Braja in their day to day affairs like a loving father and guardian.

 

AL:I really feel that we could learn a lot from them in this regard. Opening up the heart and admitting our own faults is so hard, but so necessary if we really want to progress in life.

 

Das:I feel there are varying degrees we can reveal ourselves to different devotees, but if we are truly open and honest others betrayal of our confidence will be water off a ducks back, still we need to try and find those friends who will never betray our sacred trust. And this will strengthen the mettle and value of our long term relations.

 

On a completely differnt note, but certainly related to the topics in this thread, Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it.

 

Das:If you are on a roll stick to it!

AL:Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Yes, we have to be aquainted with our real selves, and know where the Lord is directing

us to best serve, so that we may give our all, within or or without the Grhasta asram, but with no regrets. I sympathyze with the poor renunciate who wished, they should have stayed home. There are many in the Grhasta ashram who internally are like sannyasis and vice versa those in the sanyas ashram who are like housholders.

 

 

 

Wherever Maitreya may be, if he sees this, I take the opportunity to wish him the most eventful pilgrimage. I hope he's got a laptop and can give us a roving report on the Holy Dharm. May Guru and gauranga open every door to the sacred sites. Send us all some manah caramrtam.

 

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Jayaradhe -

 

Just a quick response to the idea of friendships with those of the opposite sex. Personally I think it is fine. It depends on the people involved if it will be inappropriate or not. It is certainly possible for all of us to transcend the dictates of the body and our orientations based on our conditioning. However, we are all at different stages of realization and detachment. We also have different ideas of what may be right and wrong. You have mentioned that you find it deplorable for a woman to 'steal' a man away from his wife. I totally agree with you and find it also deplorable the other way around. For me, this is an uncrossable barrier - but obviously experience tells us both that others don't share that moral conviction.

 

I do think that what you said about balance and association are valid points. Being married with children I have very little time for any other association or development of relationships. I am a bit of a recluse in the sense that I stick very close to my family. This is partly due to where I live, but also partly due to wanting to share my life deeply with them. My kids are 12 and 9 and I feel that the more time I spend with them the better. As my family grows this situation will change and I undoubtedly will expand my social field when I find it appropriate to do so. But, getting back to the ying/yang thing - I do find that my life is more complete and that I have a more balanced outlook based on my relationship with my wife. On a side note, my wife has always had many male friends and has never felt the slight bit attracted to them sexually (or should I say felt the desire to be involved with them that way). I have always encouraged her in her friendships and she in mine. I don't feel that jealousy has a place in a healthy loving relationship. That's where trust comes in - without it how will love develop?

 

For myself, I have had mostly close friendships with other men. My friendships with women have been fairly limited. Not because I am afraid of slipping or anything -I guess it's just my natural inclination to befriend other men being that I have more in common with them in general. I do have close friends that are women, but they are fewer and mostly less intimate than the male friends that I have.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Maitreya]

 

I'm still in the US.Thank you for the good thoughts Mr. das.Someday I hope to realize that the good wishes of the Vaisnava's are the only true wealth and sustenance for the soul.Until then I wander.At least this time I seem to be headed in the right direction.

 

I am packing now and have been going back and forth on the laptop.I am going to try to get it in.I leave Sunday night.

 

Wherever Maitreya may be, if he sees this, I take the opportunity to wish him the most eventful pilgrimage. I hope he's got a laptop and can give us a roving report on the Holy Dharm. May Guru and gauranga open every door to the sacred sites. Send us all some manah caramrtam.

 

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by valaya:

Hey JRdd, I didn't know you were a bank robber, too! How's about a heist sometime? RR

I'm into it

let's loot and plunder

The golden guys' vault!

And spread the booty round a bit.

I'm tired of being a bankrupt pauper!

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

I'm into it

let's loot and plunder

The golden guys' vault!

And spread the booty round a bit.

I'm tired of being a bankrupt pauper!

 

 

JAI GAURANGA!!! JAI GAURANGI!!!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

I am packing now and have been going back and forth on the laptop.I am going to try to get it in.I leave Sunday night.

 

If you can't squeeze the laptop in, don't trip. You'll find access to the web for about 80 rupees/hour. I have been in contact with many buds on pilgrimmage there. Even with a laptop, you'll still need a phoneline, and you'll always be anxious about it gettin stolen.

 

rX

 

[atma]

In vrindavan you can go to cyber cafes for Rs 15 an hour, if you take a laptop, cross to Bihari Lal and they let you connect in their phone lines. Better yet, make friends with the resident foreigners and use their computers, all of them have connections. Maitreya you won't have excuse to send us a report about your pilgrimage and experiences.

 

Remember us when you go in Govardhan parikrama, we'll be with you in every step and I'm sure that Dina Bandhu will take you to Radha Kunda for Bahulastami for the midnight bath. We'll be there too in spirit.

 

I miss Vrindavan and will be really bad for Kartika. I'll offer my candles to a picture of Sri Sri Radha-Shyam and Krsna-Balarama.

 

Srimati Radharani will take care of you Maitreya. Radhe, Radhe.

[JRdd]

Echoes to that. I am sure we all wish Maitreya the best in his holy trek.

 

Hare Krsna prabhus,

 

I would like to get back to the topic of this thread. Anyone out there still into talking about this? I pray that the lamp of truth continues to light up this thread, and that our collective inputs allow such illumination. May we all keep that in mind as we proceed in all our dealings with each other, and remember why we are attracted to this format for associating with one another. I beg anyone who becomes filled with emotions that may interfere with decent exchange to please refrain from posting until it passes. It is common to say things one regrets later, and/or say things which simply pollute the whole atmosphere, just as Dvivida Gorilla interfered with the pasttimes of Balarama and the gopis with his grossness. Can’t help it, I keep thinking of Dvivida Gorilla these past few days as I enter this forum .( Those responsible, I thank you for helping me remember Krsna-lila. )

 

This is a long preamble because this thread is sacred to me. I do not intend to spend my time casually on it. I hope others may approach it in the same way, and hold this sacred thread gently, brahminically; for even if we are not truly brahminical, we can practice behaving like brahmins and then the rest will follow.

 

I am full of faults and hidden anarthas but I post with all the sincerity I can muster so I beg patience from others. Some say I wear my heart on my sleeve (and praise or criticise me for that); others say I am not sharing enough. All I can do is my best, and reveal only as much as I feel appropriate to share on a public platform such as this, no more, and I am extending myself as it is in saying as much as I already do.

 

The attitude called for in holding this thread together is the same attitude required from anyone who hopes to keep any relationship flourishing. These have been my thoughts while reading read this thread as well as the other, having seen various sides of the spectrum displayed. By no means do I intend my observations to be conclusive, so let’s not waste time pointing out the obvious, nor pick at others either, or assume faults in them, but just keep on topic. I invite respectful feedback, and again I ask those who need to dump to go to the appropriate place to do so . Not here. Please be considerate of others. I am still reeling with shock with how Sanjay has been treated in the discussions. (I only hope he was setting the devotees up, and not really a sixteen-year old “new” kid.)

 

These are my thoughts. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that respect is a major key to enduring, productive relationships. (I pause here for the “duhs”) Maybe it’s an obvious point, but I believe it is worth discussing, because a lot of things are obvious to us yet how much have we assimilated? How much do we speak and act on the things we “know”? In Nectar of Devotion Srila Prabhupada speaks of repetition being most useful for remembering, and remembering, of course, leads to assimilation. He also said to discuss things threadbare. He encouraged us to look at things from all sides, and not accept anything with our eyes closed. This idea of respect being the key keeps hitting me as I read the two threads, as well as recall the successful marriages I know. This is of course a generalization, but the married men who post here seem to focus less on the problems of lust and bodily consciousness than on positive aspects of Krishna consciousness. They seem almost consistently to encourage others, and maintain gentle respectful behavior. This puts marriage in a good light, if there truly is a correlation between marriage and peacefulness which inclines one to respectful dealings with others. Following on from this, my observations also dare me to ask: Does maturity develop more easily through the mutual encouragement and give-and-take of an earnest partnership? Long-term married people often seem less neurotic, happier people, from what I have observed. This calls to mind Srila Prabhupada’s statement that marriage is the best of both worlds. Also I must admit that in the past I have often thought that if I were ever to post a personals ad, one of the things I would have stated as a preference would be to meet a man who had already had experience in give and take, and preferably a father. Not a must, but a preference. I say this because I think there is a lot to be said for experience, such as is shared by people bound by loyalty, with spiritual development their key aim. Seems true to me that good qualities would develop in such a situation, where one learns to compromise for the sake of unity of purpose. Just another little cheer for the marriage institution! It truly is a process which works if one works it, sans half-heartedness.

 

People might not want to touch this topic. It may seem to point the finger at those who are not married. I myself may not have stated my opinions in a way that will not cause consternation to some. Forgive me; it is not easy to see one’s own false ego. These are, as I said, my observations, not intended to be solid conclusions not to offend anyone, more just food for thought, and I would be interested in others’ respectful feedback.

 

Thanks, look forward to hearing from you,

aspiring for your good association,

Jayaradhe

 

(edited to add a sentence I left out)

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-29-2001).]

[JRdd]

I wanted to repost this as it stands out, and my post above only underlines it.

 

Originally posted by stonehearted:

Oh, I also wanted to add that last night I also shared a recent post from Tripurari Maharaj in which he pointed out that marriage teaches two important and connected values: love and sacrifice.

Think about it!

 

 

[dasanudas]

May FD Sanjay, like all of us, have the vision to extract the nectar from the 'yukky stuff', and understand the difference in false renunciation ie withdrawing from the world of action and what is called yukta vairagya, utilizing everything in the service of the Lord, which is what our guardians have come to give us, Bhakti yoga, not mere withdrawal from the negative but to positively fill up our whole heart with sweet nectar, and who is the reservoir of such substance but Akhila Rasamrta Murti-Sri Krsna the personification of all nectarean rasas. And that association who are devoted to giving us this is Sat-sanga, the company of the Absolute Truth, those servants of the servants who constantly delight in His Names and pastimes. These are our true-blue associates. May we be blessed to always keep such beneficial company.