A War Between Here and Hereafter

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Maitreya: Forget the marketplace Satyaraja and find a cave.That is more in line with what you claim shruti says.

 

Satyaraj: Thanx for advice, dear Maitreyaji. I was forgetting Wall street’s episode! But sruti also says something about forests. You known, we don’t have any scarcity of forest up here, so I am thinking in a forest, maybe near a beach, or a nice river... What do you think?

I don't know Satyaraja.Isn't the forest suppose to be located in a sacred place?There might be some in Brazil.Definetly avoid the beaches near Rio, that I can say for certain.The main thing is no phone lines,otherwise you will be tempted to proselytize.And that might upset the self appointed shruti guru's at Harvard and the University of Chicago.

 

 

 

[Caitanyachandra]

One time, some top leader in IsGONE told me that the Dean of the Harvard Divinity School got kicked or fired for watching pornography on his University computer.

 

Any truth to this allegation?

 

Farfethced dude.

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[Guest guest]

 

karthik_v:Is it because you are unable to find fault with SP's translation from a linguistic, academic or grammatical perspective?

 

Satyaraj: Many had done that before and it is a great waist of time to deal with Prabhupada’s translation from a linguistic, academic or grammatical perspective. Jagatji and other of Prabhupada’s erudite disciples can confirm that fact. The faults are so many that it is actually an uphill task far beyond my capabilities to rectify them all while translating to Portuguese. It is a real mess meant to very low and unqualified people like hippies and alike. Even ordinary people are aware of that fact!

 

[shvu]

 

 

Shvu:

I think it is you who is in need of correction.The Bhagavad-gita was very obviously not given to Arjuna specifically.In 18.70 of the Bhagavad-gita,Krsna says:"And I declare that he who studies this sacred conversation worships Me by his intelligence." So Krsna is aware that there would be people other than Arjuna who would get to study the conversation.

Leyh,

 

As usual you are taking things out of context. If you read my post, you will notice that I never said that the BG was for Arjuna only. My point is the BG is not for everyone and so, your points are moot.

 

Cheers

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

karthik_v: I was not even quoting SP's purport. I was only quoting the verses and their translation.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, you won’t be so silly at that point, as everyone agrees with you that Prabhupada’s purport are only a mess.

Satyaraja you are getting desperate, aren't you? Trying to ascribe words and motives that weren't mine to begin with. What I meant was pretty clear..that translation is the same no matter where it comes from. You may or may not agree with SP's purport. I do agree with them 100%. But that is beyond the point. We are debating on the core issue and we are both quoting from BG, verses and translation. From what these verses and their translations reveal, your contentions stand exposed as totally false.

 

karthik_v: I was only quoting the verses and their translation. So, please point out (by resorting to references from Panini) as to why they are wrong.

 

Satyaraj: So, are you stating that your Prabhupada made his translations by resorting to references from Panini? Oh, that is not exactly the proper way to translate! But we should be lenient in that case.

 

 

Again you are evading the question. Is it because you are unable to find fault with SP's translation from a linguistic, academic or grammatical perspective? I understand that and I would be quite considerate towards you for you have set yourself against an uphill task far beyond your capabilities.

[shvu]

 

Karthik,

 

This point of yours can be clearly refuted by verse 4.2 of BG:

Disciplic succession does not mean that the BG is for the whole world. 4.2 does not refute my position, but actually supports it. Further, your own understanding of 4.3 is,

 

Here Krishna clearly states that Arjuna receives this message only because he is his devotee and friend. So, BG is spoken to his devotees and friends by Krishna and not to any individual.

Touchè. Exactly my point. The "only" suggests discretion, which is absent when books are published and distributed to all, isn't it? Note "cheti rahasyam hyetaduttamam" here. Uttamam does not mean transcendental as translated by his divine grace.

This is further corroborated by Krishna in verse 4.7 of BG:

 

So, that answers without any ambiguity that BG was spoken by Krishna for every devotee and aspiring devotee and not for any individual alone.

The BG was Krishna's teaching to Arjuna in his moment of confusion and despair. That is what I mean by saying that it was specifically addressed to Arjuna. I am not implying that the BG was Arjuna only. My point is, the BG is not for the general public, like you think it is.

 

You are committing Vaishnava aparadh, but I would rather maintain civility. I can just bank on the writings of Srila Prabhupad to expose the flaws in your statements without resorting to cheap innuendos.

innuendo? Am I missing something here? I have already committed enough Vaishnava Aparadha to last billions of years of hell and it does not bother me in the least. Since you raised the topic of Vaishnava Aparadha, let us see how it works.

 

1. Shankara, according to the Gaudiyas is an avatar of Shiva [a demi-god, apparently] and is the #1 vaishnava.

 

2. His divine grace, labels Shankara as cunning, insane, inceremonious, etc.

 

3. Thus by your logic of Vaishnava Aparadha, His divine grace is a bigtime offender himself and is already in hell, burning in oil. Not to mention him calling his competitors [other Indian Gurus who were trying their gimmicks in the US] as rascals. If a saffron clad gentleman can speak this way of others, it is very easy for people like me to speak about him.

 

QED, thus.

 

So, here we go. In verse 4.15 of BG, Krishna says:

 

evam jnatva krtam karma

purvair api mumuksubhih

kuru karmaiva tasmat tvam

purvaih purvataram krtam

 

This shows that an acarya can and should distribute the transcendental teachings of Krishna. Krishna himself says that his teachings should be propagated. Hence your assertion is based on ignorance.

I am missing something here. How does 4.15 show that the BG should be propogated? Can you explain?

 

The fact that a spiritual master should indeed preach to others is corroborated by verse 4.34 of BG:

There is no doubt that a master has to propogate teachings, and I have never denied that. I hope you understand, no one is arguing this point.

 

And verse 4.36 of BG clearly shows why you are wrong when you stated that an acarya cannot preach to everyone:

 

api ced asi papebhyah

sarvebhyah papa-krt-tamah

sarvam jnana-plavenaiva

vrjinam santarisyasi

 

TRANSLATION

Even if you are considered to be the most sinful of all sinners, when you are situated in the boat of transcendental knowledge you will be able to cross over the ocean of miseries.

 

So, while you may feel that our acarya Srila Prabhupad shouldn't preach to any T,D and H Lord Krishna conveys exactly the opposite.

FYI, the above verse does not suggest, the Bg should be preached to all. Perhaps, you missed the clear message in 18.67? To add more,

 

He says that the only qualification you need is submissiveness to guru and by his grace you will be enlightened.

This rules out preaching to any T, D & H, don't you think? All the verses posted by you suggest discrimination in passing on the teaching, and yet that is the point you are arguing against ! I suggest you read texts in sequence and not pull them out of context[viz., 4.15]. It will make things easier for all.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Most people fall under the category of here and hereafter not here or here after. When one surrenders to Sri Krishna, he continues His duties until Sri Krishna Himself absolves the sadhaka of his duties here so that he may relish here after while here or here after. And then he still continues to act on behalf of people here. When the here and here after are seen both as energies of the Supreme Master Sri Krishna, who is the master of both here and here after and who is here and here after and here before, there is a complete symphony between the here, here after and here before. Arjuna protected dharma here while preparing ground for here after. That which is here therefore can be dovetailed for the here after if the focus is on the here after and the guidance comes from the masters of the here after. The conflict comes when one things that he is in the here after while he actually is only here and thinks that others need to attacked because they are opponents of the master of the here after. Or when some one thinks that what is here is only real and that what comes here after is unreal and wants every one to spend time and effort only on what is here.

 

I hope I am clear about what I had to say here. Or let me know, I could clarify here after -

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

A War Between Here and Hereafter

 

One should understand that Here’s ideas of warfare might not succeed in Hereafter’s countries. How do you battle a foe who has so little to protect in this world? A person who may believe a greater good will come from sacrificing himself, his home, his family? How do you vanquish an enemy for whom categories of defeat and victory, life and death do not match yours? Nothing you know Here works in their world.

 

In the Hereafter’s camp poverty is something that a Here’s citizen cannot fathom. Generally people have not even furniture. No light. The only object in a house may be a copy of the Koran, or a Gita, or some other scripture tucked into an alcove.

 

If a Here’s citizen ask a Hereafter’s man, “Why do you live in such conditions? Don't you want to do something to improve your lot?" The answer would be, "Don't you understand that the worse we live in this world, the better our lives will be Hereafter? I don't want the same things in life that you want."

 

Now it seems that they will fight to convince themselves that the Here is a good place for Hereafter’s people and that the Hereafter is a good place for Here’s people!!! What a chronic battle!

 

Any comment on that thesis?

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by ram:

Most people fall under the category of here and hereafter not here or here after. When one surrenders to Sri Krishna, he continues His duties until Sri Krishna Himself absolves the sadhaka of his duties here so that he may relish here after while here or here after. And then he still continues to act on behalf of people here. When the here and here after are seen both as energies of the Supreme Master Sri Krishna, who is the master of both here and here after and who is here and here after and here before, there is a complete symphony between the here, here after and here before. Arjuna protected dharma here while preparing ground for here after. That which is here therefore can be dovetailed for the here after if the focus is on the here after and the guidance comes from the masters of the here after. The conflict comes when one things that he is in the here after while he actually is only here and thinks that others need to attacked because they are opponents of the master of the here after. Or when some one thinks that what is here is only real and that what comes here after is unreal and wants every one to spend time and effort only on what is here.

 

I hope I am clear about what I had to say here. Or let me know, I could clarify here after -

Priceless, prabhu!!! RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Ananga]

As much as some people here want to put the war on terrorism in some context of religious principles, it is nonetheless simply a battle against ignorance and barbarism. The Taliban regime (and those like it) wants to plunge the world back into the dark ages. Their brand of religion and politics harkens back to historical despots like Ourang Zeb, who ordered the demolition of the Govindaji temple in Vrindavan. The U.S. (and especially the Chinese) government should have invaded and put a stop to the blasting of the statues of Buddha by those pond scum.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 09-30-2001).]