Sexism and related topics

[valaya]

Too bad formerly married couples aren't both posting here at the same time! Next best thing might be happily married couples. At least they could shine a more positive light on male-female (oh, alright! Female-male...) relationships. I hope...RR

[suryaz]

 

Originally posted by valaya:

I prefer to try and look for the essence and thereby bring out the best in others, whenever possible, rather than using them to justify my own position as superior in any way. Sometimes that entails voluntarily assuming the position of inferior myself.

 

"To thine own self be true." + Look for the essence of truth (or the lack of it) in sound. smile

[suryaz]

Originally posted by talasiga:

In a trial the plea of non compos mentis may variously go towards exempting from trial or towards mitigating guilt or lessening the penalty of the person purported to be "not of sound mind".

NOTA BENE: For this purpose, the being "not of sound mind" must be to the extent that the prosecuted does not have the capacity to understand or appreciate the nature or quality of the alleged crime. It does not simply mean someone of insane disposition.

 

In the circumstances, your continued use of the term is incorrect and when correctly understood tends to undermine the very point about culpability that you are putting forward.

 

 

Thanks Talasiga. I will remember that

 

 

[Maitreya]

Valaya,

 

Thanks for the good advice on the previous page.I'm taking it.

 

One thing I noticed about this thread is that the pop-pyschology is thick and characteristically missing Krishna's name.

 

Just because you are remaining doesn't mean you must beat your head against this wall bro.

 

Hare Krishna

[valaya]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Valaya,

 

Thanks for the good advice on the previous page.I'm taking it.

 

One thing I noticed about this thread is that the pop-pyschology is thick and characteristically missing Krishna's name.

 

Just because you are remaining doesn't mean you must beat your head against this wall bro.

 

Hare Krishna

 

I hear you! BTW don't let anyone stop you from diving right into Radha-kund. This may be your one and only opportunity. Look on it as full-immersion baptism!

 

Contrary to popular opinion, the turtles don't actually bite, though they may nibble a little...RR

 

 

[JRdd]

Okay I'm out of here. this has ceased to be a functional thread because some, while gender-bashing, themselves, whine (a men's word for when women do it) about being emasculated, male bashed, etc, when they have been given examples, and not just of men doing it, and yet refuse to present examples, from this thread, where male-bashing is going on. I am very sorry that our egos have become more important than bridging gaps and reaching higher understanding. What is the biggest shame is that these accusations, these sour grapes, come out of the blue, without any previous discussion about what is dissatisfyng. And it is so immature, to not be able to continue discussing an issue, just because people have different opinions and experiences. We should know by now that when we enter a discussion there will be differing views, and should be prepared to act as gentlepersons. And I am also tired of all these indrect messages, constantly, and you know who you are. It is fear and lust (anger arises from lust) and I am sorry it has interfered with fucntionality.

 

Jayaradhe

 

All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

And I am also tired of all these indrect messages, constantly, and you know who you are.

JR, I took valaya's comment about the turtles at straight value.He wasn't calling you or anyone else here a turtle.

 

Found it funny also as I have heard stories of these monster turtles that live in Radha-kund and had become resigned to just pouring some water over my head.

 

[JRdd]

I also notice that things I didn't get "bashed" as you like to call it, until I dared to agree finally with someone in a female body. If someone feels inadequate it is nothing to do with what anyone else says on this thread.

 

Never mind, I don't want to waste any more of my time on unreasonable persons. Rather I will Heed my Father's advice about fools. Be they in female or male bodies, doesn't matter to me.

 

Apologies if any genuine offense has sprung from me. But no apologies if someone's ego ahs been bruised. My ego has taken a lot of brusing lately and I don't expect mollycoddling for it. I want the truth. Nothing less.

 

JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

JR, I took valaya's comment about the turtles at straight value.He wasn't calling you or anyone else here a turtle.

 

Found it funny also as I have heard stories of these monster turtles that live in Radha-kund and had become resigned to just pouring some water over my head.

LOL!!! Wasn't thinking of the turtles as you well know.

 

I think you have to be in a small body for a turtle kidnapping to take place.

 

JR

 

 

[M-dd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

...

Found it funny also as I have heard stories of these monster turtles that live in Radha-kund and had become resigned to just pouring some water over my head.

Unasked for advice, Maitreya, take full bath in Her Divine Grace! You will never regret it. Just don't go swimming or in other ways express irreverence. Srila Prabhupada used to let devotees take full bath, but they began horsing around, so he put a stop to it for this disrespect.

 

As for the turtles, they are quite big enough to see and avoid, and I've never heard of anyone being bitten by one myself. I took the advice of an older godsister on bathing in Radha Kunda, her words, 'if there is offense, the offense is temporary, but the spiritual benefit is eternal'. That suited me and I've never regretted it. I can call up the experience of being surrounded in Her Divine Embrace any time I think about it, ecstacy is there. Follow your heart.

 

And I wish you a great and spiritually fullfilling and enlivening trip to the Holy Dhama.

 

 

[Maitreya]

Thank you M-dd.I'm now convinced.It's full immersion for me.

[valaya]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

JR, I took valaya's comment about the turtles at straight value.He wasn't calling you or anyone else here a turtle.

 

Found it funny also as I have heard stories of these monster turtles that live in Radha-kund and had become resigned to just pouring some water over my head.

 

You are right about the turtles, of course. From `discussed` to `disgust` and guess whose to blame, as usual?!! RR

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by M-dd:

I can call up the experience of being surrounded in Her Divine Embrace any time I think about it, ecstacy is there. Follow your heart.

 

What Seduction !

You have taken me

Where I've not been !

Following my fallen heart

Under the waters of ecstasy

I see weightless heart moves freely.

 

.

.

.

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[dasanudas]

This post has been changed for the reasons given below. Thank you for your understandings.

 

 

[This message has been edited by dasanudas (edited 09-28-2001).]

[valaya]

Guess I should have said, enter slowly with full awareness, but dive deep once you're fully immersed. Then, for a few moments at least, you're all alone and fully surrounded by Her. Wish I'd never come back up! RR

[M-dd]

Originally posted by suryaz:

Originally posted by M-dd:

...

And that is not about putting blame for one's own set of conditioned being on another person, rather it is a process to disentangle oneself from entangling association.

......................................

Suryaz:Yes Madhavi I agree with you on this point.

But where to begin? I say we nip it in the bud.

I do believe you have the best of intentions in trying to nip it in the bud, and I agree in principle. But I know from experience that that will sometimes only draw more attacks. Look at that horrible drawing that a big mysogenist put JR's name to! I once called that guy a mysogenist(which is fully confirmed by this awful act), in the same mood of nipping it in the bud, but in another discussion. It accomplished nothing but a horrific spew of mysogenism being directed at me, so powerful that I succombed to it temporarily. It accomplished nothing else. I think you might be making the same mistake here, unless you have personal knowledge of this devotee and/or his ex-fiance, in which case perhaps a public forum isn't the place to vent your feelings about it, but otherwise, if you do not know either of them personally, you do not really know how much blame he meant to put on her for his own behaviour. What I've found out with a lot, and I mean a lot, of men is that they actually believe, on the evidence of their being attracted to us(women), that it(their attraction) is coming from us(women) and our desire for the pleasure of their having sex with us. Even 'karmi' women are less interested in the sex act than men, and that is a well-known fact. I've learned that this is usually just an over-puffed-up male ego, related to their obsession with macho-ness, which they falsely believe centers on their sexual 'performance'. I've learned this the hard way by what felt like betrayal to me by several male devotee friends, who all thought it was coming from me, and myself never considering to entertain such an idea of intimacy with them, due to their being married, and to friends of mine as well. This phenomenon happened to me on three clear-cut occasions and I had to accept that this was the problem. I had set about trying to find out what it was that certain men became so angry at me about all the time. It turned out that simply because, due to my shyness and/or integrity(ie if they were married), I never reciprocated their subtle sex flirtations. Go figure. The other thing they always got angry about was their wives telling me about their beatings and stranglings and rapes and other assorted abuses.

 

Suryaz says, "It begins with misuse of language as the accepted norm. I do no understand why so may are against this, or the elucidation of it. What is wrong with establishing truth?"

I wholeheartedly agree to your intent of establishing the truth, but I dont think that abuse simply comes from language misuse. Like when I was 8 months pregnant and asked my ex to carry my 60# two yr old to mangal aratrika and he threw a rocking chair at me, missed luckily, but with such force as to smash it literally to pieces, the only connection with language was my request for aid. This kind of abuse is about rage, and it is rampant, very rampant.

 

Still, having said that, there is definitely the phenomenon of misquoting Srila Prabhupada in order to support abusive behaviour, and on that I agree totally with you that it is extremely important to nip such misuse of language in the bud. So I guess I agree and disagree overall on that point.

 

Originally posted by Suryaz: Moreover, when abuse (in whatever form, be it action, language, etc. etc.) becomes the accepted norm not only does toxic shame intensifies but also the whole society knows only hell (distortion) as truth.

YES! Wholeheartedly I agree. It is a historical fact that ISKCON became a hell to live in in many places and many ways.

 

Originally posted by Suryaz:

---M-d.d. said>>There is a subtle but all-important difference between humility and false humility.

 

Suryaz: Exactly my point. To use anything of distorted origin and promote it as truth is bad enough – but then to present it as presented with humbleness, this brings into play distortion of the most deplorable sort.

Yes, true, but I still don't see the extent of your accusation as being based in a blatant case of this. I understand totally your reacting strongly to the idea of his fiance seducing him, but by his actual wording you could also take the meaning that he was saying that he was seduced by the material energy, which, imho, is a valid statement.

 

Originally posted by M-dd:

The first arises from spiritual advancement, the latter from shame.

......................................

Suryaz:Yes but shame in other ways also - shame to society and to those who accept it as truth.

I think maybe your point is divergent from the point I was making. I agree that many accepted shaming out-of-context quotes as true for themselves, and thus continued their entanglement, and society as a whole, ISKCON-style, also gave free reign to abusers due to these mis-truths full of toxic shame. I'm not sure if that's what you mean here.

 

Originally posted by Suryaz: Likewise those who are interested in upholding abuse, injustice distortion degradation etc., etc. at its point of entry VIZ lingo-symbolic confusion etc., etc. shifting the gaze etc., etc. are also as you put it [Madhavi “nothing more than a jailer for the material energy,”] and should be rejected. It si simply WRONG to support abuse at any level.

I agree. And we saw historically in the most blatant example, how this foolish 'linguistic' support of abuse supported even the most horrific abuses of rape of children. Without so much of a supporting structure, these thugs would have been rooted out, so in that way, I wholly agree with you. But the misuse of language didn't actually cause the rapes, it just served to allow it to go on so long unchecked.

 

Originally posted by M-dd:

But the sad history is that these very women have been categorically blamed for the resultant disastrous volume of ISKCON divorces, lack of submission and lack of chastity being cited, in the name of Srila Prabhupada. The idea, as Srila Prabhupada presented it, was supposed to be that the woman benefits by submitting to her husband because he lifts her up spiritually. I cannot say it enough times that there is an extremely large number of godsisters who did submit to their husbands, only to be dragged down, and I'm not talking about dragged down through sex, which is an oversimplistic idea, but dragged down by abuse, by toxic shaming, usually accompanied by physical violence or the threat of physical violence. That is not to blame the woman's conditioning on the man, rather it is to enlighten society to the fact that when a woman leaves such a situation it is a move on her part up the ladder of spiritual evolution, not down.

.......................................

Suryaz:Why? Because of use (misuse) of language.

I'm unclear here if you are blaming the actual abuse on the misuse of language? I can't agree with that, but I do agree that it was greatly enhanced. I remember being a new devotee on the way to sankirtana. One godsister spoke irreverently to her husband and he turned around and attacked her and started beating her. I was then told by another godsister present that Srila Prabhupada said, 'there are three things a man can beat, a dog, a mrdanga and his wife'. I was shocked and I found this very bewildering, but today, I will only agree that if these exact words were actually said by His Divine Grace, they were meant as in, a man can, cuz he can get away with it, not because it was ok. This is a good example of the misuse you're talking about, but I'm certain that this guy would have beat his wife that day regardless. It is conditioned into the abuser to abuse, and the misquoting was simply a vehicle to justify, and in that way, yes, increase their evil behaviour, as it went unchecked.

 

Suryaz said>

Yes Madhavi I certainly believe chivalry was dead in the movement. Women and children especially were abused. Some men also – but the culture gave more privileges to men and the abuse was less severe. But abuse was throughout given the accepted norms I cannot see how 99% if not all of the membership did not suffer. What is more shocking is the continued denial of abuse.

Yes, I'm picking up some pretty heavy denial on this thread even. Too bad. Thus the cycle of conditioning continues.

 

Suryaz said>

Glad you put this bit in.

 

Madhavi: PS. It is important to note that in the age-old expression, 'it takes two to tango', sometimes the one is an abuser and the two is a victim. And in such a case the responsibility for the tango itself is not equal. To simplify what I mean, let's just use the analogy of rape, what intelligent person will say it takes two to tango for violent rape, giving equal responsibility to raper and rapee? Similarly, in any severe abuse, the abuse itself is SOLELY AND ENTIRELY the responsibility of the abuser, and the responsibility of the abusee becomes simply a responsibility to remove oneself from the abusive situation, as stated before, from the entanglement that it fosters.

 

Suryaz: Furthermore, what of the rape of the intelligence through the acceptance of abusive language to as a mean to judge/justify or even conceptualise a given situation?

 

How can one aspire for any kind of devotion where socially accepted abuse is the norm?

 

Suryaz

Very good point. What gets me is the incorrect use of language that leads to the false understanding that it was some kind of equal thing, like a fight, when the truth is there was a very insidious evil of abuse growing out of control like a raging cancer. I find that men who aren't abusive seem to feel threatened by women talking about mysogenistic abuses, and I take it that they don't have it in them so can't fathom the truth of it, thus they will say things like, oh, let's hear what the abuser has to say about this, [yeah right, he's got some good lies for ya]. I know two devotee men who each kicked his wife in the stomach while she was very pregnant. Each of them, and these guys didn't even know each other, claimed to know how to kick her without hurting the baby. Perhaps Valaya and others here would like to hear from these men? Or how about the one who raped his very sick wife in Vrndavan, and left her to raise the kid alone? Then there's the guy who was strangling his wife and when the baby woke up and saw started screaming at her for making him see it! And that is just a small sampling of the true stories I have been told by the recipients, not by second- or third-hand gossip. So if you guys who think these husbands have some valid points, you're just simply wrong about that. And if you won't hear the truth, then I will have to agree with Suryaz on all points and stop my generosity of benefit of doubt.

 

[dasanudas]

Keep it amicable folks.

 

[This message has been edited by dasanudas (edited 09-28-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Excuse me for posting these couple of posts mixed in with these other posts on 'sexism and related topics' there is absolutely no relationship of the divine with some of these personal experiences so if it is possible I will try to edit my contributions off the thread some how.

Dandavats to the ladies and gentlemen Madhavi long time no hear How are you and yours. Gotta fly now.

[valaya]

IP: Logged

M-dd

Junior Member

 

posted 09-28-2001 12:24 AM

quote:

Originally posted by suryaz:

Originally posted by M-dd:

...

And that is not about putting blame for one's own set of conditioned being on another person, rather it is a process to disentangle oneself from entangling association.

......................................

Suryaz:Yes Madhavi I agree with you on this point.

But where to begin? I say we nip it in the bud.

I do believe you have the best of intentions in trying to nip it in the bud, and I agree in principle. But I know from experience that that will sometimes only draw more attacks. Look at that horrible drawing that a big mysogenist put JR's name to! I once called that guy a mysogenist(which is fully confirmed by this awful act), in the same mood of nipping it in the bud, but in another discussion. It accomplished nothing but a horrific spew of mysogenism being directed at me, so powerful that I succombed to it temporarily. It accomplished nothing else. I think you might be making the same mistake here, unless you have personal knowledge of this devotee and/or his ex-fiance, in which case perhaps a public forum isn't the place to vent your feelings about it, but otherwise, if you do not know either of them personally, you do not really know how much blame he meant to put on her for his own behaviour. What I've found out with a lot, and I mean a lot, of men is that they actually believe, on the evidence of their being attracted to us(women), that it(their attraction) is coming from us(women) and our desire for the pleasure of their having sex with us. Even 'karmi' women are less interested in the sex act than men, and that is a well-known fact. I've learned that this is usually just an over-puffed-up male ego, related to their obsession with macho-ness, which they falsely believe centers on their sexual 'performance'. I've learned this the hard way by what felt like betrayal to me by several male devotee friends, who all thought it was coming from me, and myself never considering to entertain such an idea of intimacy with them, due to their being married, and to friends of mine as well. This phenomenon happened to me on three clear-cut occasions and I had to accept that this was the problem. I had set about trying to find out what it was that certain men became so angry at me about all the time. It turned out that simply because, due to my shyness and/or integrity(ie if they were married), I never reciprocated their subtle sex flirtations. Go figure. The other thing they always got angry about was their wives telling me about their beatings and stranglings and rapes and other assorted abuses.

quote:

Suryaz says, "It begins with misuse of language as the accepted norm. I do no understand why so may are against this, or the elucidation of it. What is wrong with establishing truth?"

I wholeheartedly agree to your intent of establishing the truth, but I dont think that abuse simply comes from language misuse. Like when I was 8 months pregnant and asked my ex to carry my 60# two yr old to mangal aratrika and he threw a rocking chair at me, missed luckily, but with such force as to smash it literally to pieces, the only connection with language was my request for aid. This kind of abuse is about rage, and it is rampant, very rampant.

Still, having said that, there is definitely the phenomenon of misquoting Srila Prabhupada in order to support abusive behaviour, and on that I agree totally with you that it is extremely important to nip such misuse of language in the bud. So I guess I agree and disagree overall on that point.

quote:

Originally posted by Suryaz: Moreover, when abuse (in whatever form, be it action, language, etc. etc.) becomes the accepted norm not only does toxic shame intensifies but also the whole society knows only hell (distortion) as truth.

YES! Wholeheartedly I agree. It is a historical fact that ISKCON became a hell to live in in many places and many ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Suryaz:

---M-d.d. said>>There is a subtle but all-important difference between humility and false humility.

Suryaz: Exactly my point. To use anything of distorted origin and promote it as truth is bad enough ? but then to present it as presented with humbleness, this brings into play distortion of the most deplorable sort.

Yes, true, but I still don't see the extent of your accusation as being based in a blatant case of this. I understand totally your reacting strongly to the idea of his fiance seducing him, but by his actual wording you could also take the meaning that he was saying that he was seduced by the material energy, which, imho, is a valid statement.

quote:

Originally posted by M-dd:

The first arises from spiritual advancement, the latter from shame.

......................................

Suryaz:Yes but shame in other ways also - shame to society and to those who accept it as truth.

I think maybe your point is divergent from the point I was making. I agree that many accepted shaming out-of-context quotes as true for themselves, and thus continued their entanglement, and society as a whole, ISKCON-style, also gave free reign to abusers due to these mis-truths full of toxic shame. I'm not sure if that's what you mean here.

quote:

Originally posted by Suryaz: Likewise those who are interested in upholding abuse, injustice distortion degradation etc., etc. at its point of entry VIZ lingo-symbolic confusion etc., etc. shifting the gaze etc., etc. are also as you put it [Madhavi ?nothing more than a jailer for the material energy,?] and should be rejected. It si simply WRONG to support abuse at any level.

I agree. And we saw historically in the most blatant example, how this foolish 'linguistic' support of abuse supported even the most horrific abuses of rape of children. Without so much of a supporting structure, these thugs would have been rooted out, so in that way, I wholly agree with you. But the misuse of language didn't actually cause the rapes, it just served to allow it to go on so long unchecked.

quote:

Originally posted by M-dd:

But the sad history is that these very women have been categorically blamed for the resultant disastrous volume of ISKCON divorces, lack of submission and lack of chastity being cited, in the name of Srila Prabhupada. The idea, as Srila Prabhupada presented it, was supposed to be that the woman benefits by submitting to her husband because he lifts her up spiritually. I cannot say it enough times that there is an extremely large number of godsisters who did submit to their husbands, only to be dragged down, and I'm not talking about dragged down through sex, which is an oversimplistic idea, but dragged down by abuse, by toxic shaming, usually accompanied by physical violence or the threat of physical violence. That is not to blame the woman's conditioning on the man, rather it is to enlighten society to the fact that when a woman leaves such a situation it is a move on her part up the ladder of spiritual evolution, not down.

.......................................

Suryaz:Why? Because of use (misuse) of language.

I'm unclear here if you are blaming the actual abuse on the misuse of language? I can't agree with that, but I do agree that it was greatly enhanced. I remember being a new devotee on the way to sankirtana. One godsister spoke irreverently to her husband and he turned around and attacked her and started beating her. I was then told by another godsister present that Srila Prabhupada said, 'there are three things a man can beat, a dog, a mrdanga and his wife'. I was shocked and I found this very bewildering, but today, I will only agree that if these exact words were actually said by His Divine Grace, they were meant as in, a man can, cuz he can get away with it, not because it was ok. This is a good example of the misuse you're talking about, but I'm certain that this guy would have beat his wife that day regardless. It is conditioned into the abuser to abuse, and the misquoting was simply a vehicle to justify, and in that way, yes, increase their evil behaviour, as it went unchecked.

quote:

Suryaz said>

Yes Madhavi I certainly believe chivalry was dead in the movement. Women and children especially were abused. Some men also ? but the culture gave more privileges to men and the abuse was less severe. But abuse was throughout given the accepted norms I cannot see how 99% if not all of the membership did not suffer. What is more shocking is the continued denial of abuse.

Yes, I'm picking up some pretty heavy denial on this thread even. Too bad. Thus the cycle of conditioning continues.

quote:

Suryaz said>

Glad you put this bit in.

Madhavi: PS. It is important to note that in the age-old expression, 'it takes two to tango', sometimes the one is an abuser and the two is a victim. And in such a case the responsibility for the tango itself is not equal. To simplify what I mean, let's just use the analogy of rape, what intelligent person will say it takes two to tango for violent rape, giving equal responsibility to raper and rapee? Similarly, in any severe abuse, the abuse itself is SOLELY AND ENTIRELY the responsibility of the abuser, and the responsibility of the abusee becomes simply a responsibility to remove oneself from the abusive situation, as stated before, from the entanglement that it fosters.

Suryaz: Furthermore, what of the rape of the intelligence through the acceptance of abusive language to as a mean to judge/justify or even conceptualise a given situation?

How can one aspire for any kind of devotion where socially accepted abuse is the norm?

Suryaz

Very good point. What gets me is the incorrect use of language that leads to the false understanding that it was some kind of equal thing, like a fight, when the truth is there was a very insidious evil of abuse growing out of control like a raging cancer. I find that men who aren't abusive seem to feel threatened by women talking about mysogenistic abuses, and I take it that they don't have it in them so can't fathom the truth of it, thus they will say things like, oh, let's hear what the abuser has to say about this, [yeah right, he's got some good lies for ya]. I know two devotee men who each kicked his wife in the stomach while she was very pregnant. Each of them, and these guys didn't even know each other, claimed to know how to kick her without hurting the baby. Perhaps Valaya and others here would like to hear from these men? Or how about the one who raped his very sick wife in Vrndavan, and left her to raise the kid alone? Then there's the guy who was strangling his wife and when the baby woke up and saw started screaming at her for making him see it! And that is just a small sampling of the true stories I have been told by the recipients, not by second- or third-hand gossip. So if you guys who think these husbands have some valid points, you're just simply wrong about that. And if you won't hear the truth, then I will have to agree with Suryaz on all points and stop my generosity of benefit of doubt.

___________

 

So when is a post not a post? When it takes up an entire PAGE! One big difference between men and women is that men prefer solving problems to talking about them! I know, it makes you feel better, but it drives us NUTS!

 

Alright already! I never abused women, in fact they abused me! O.K.? As for these so-called `men` you speak of, I certainly would like to speak with them and even meet them. Not so much to discuss though, but so we could SOLVE the problem! I say we because I know other men here would feel the same way and want to act, not talk, talk, talk ad nauseum.

 

This thread, which appears to have killed the `relationships` thread it split off from, is entitled `sexism`, not `MALE sexism`. The topic of abuse by ISKCON husbands is another separate thing altogether. Yes, I realize everything is related, but we mere men can't deal with it coming at us all mixed up like this. Our minds and emotions don't function like yours! Somehow you manage to lump everything into one big indigestible chunk, as evidenced by such enormously long posts, confusing the hell out of us; then we get beaten about the head with that same heavy chunk for not listening enough to understand correctly or, God help us, trying to offer some explanation of our own personal problems with women.

 

Maybe we understand more than you think, after all we're here, are we not? Try to appreciate that one point at least, otherwise you'll end up `discussing` with each other with no one to help sort out the muddled mess. Yes, we approach things differently, which enables the sexes to compliment one another. Hear that, prabhus? COMPLIMENT one another!

 

Please consider what I've said here deeply. Thank you. valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-28-2001).]

[M-dd]

Originally posted by valaya:

 

___________

 

So when is a post not a post? When it takes up an entire PAGE! One big difference between men and women is that men prefer solving problems to talking about them! I know, it makes you feel better, but it drives us NUTS!

 

Alright already! I never abused women, in fact they abused me! O.K.? As for these so-called `men` you speak of, I certainly would like to speak with them and even meet them. Not so much to discuss though, but so we could SOLVE the problem! I say we because I know other men here would feel the same way and want to act, not talk, talk, talk ad nauseum.

 

This thread, which appears to have killed the `relationships` thread it split off from, is entitled `sexism`, not `MALE sexism`. The topic of abuse by ISKCON husbands is another separate thing altogether. Yes, I realize everything is related, but we mere men can't deal with it coming at us all mixed up like this. Our minds and emotions don't function like yours! Somehow you manage to lump everything into one big indigestible chunk, as evidenced by such enormously long posts, confusing the hell out of us; then we get beaten about the head with that same heavy chunk for not listening enough to understand correctly or, God help us, trying to offer some explanation of our own personal problems with women.

 

Maybe we understand more than you think, after all we're here, are we not? Try to appreciate that one point at least, otherwise you'll end up `discussing` with each other with no one to help sort out the muddled mess. Yes, we approach things differently, which enables the sexes to compliment one another. Hear that, prabhus? COMPLIMENT one another!

 

Please consider what I've said here deeply. Thank you. valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-28-2001).]

You want to ACT? Great, start acting, put your actions where your talkingmouth is, and do something concrete about all the unprotected women and children who are fallout victims from the type of abuse I have given testimony of. You want to criticize me for giving this testimony, simply means you wish to push the truth further under the bed, like my kids used to do with their clothes and toys when I told them to clean their room. Magically the same mess reappeared the next day, cuz that trick just does not work for more than a temporary bandaid effect.

 

Far more intelligent it is to write a long thoughtful post than pick it up and repeat the whole thing just to criticize the length, and assassinate the character of the writer, with barely a reference to the points made. You are so stupid you can't understand the simple content? Valaya, I'm surprised at you.

 

You wish to talk to these men guilty of criminal violence? Go to ISKON, you will find lots of them. Maybe you can get into their game with them, they're always ready to take on new boys into their club. Seems to me you just might be a little more abusive than you'd like everyone here to believe, mr. high and mighty who pretends to be a 'unifier' whilst constantly character assassinating those whose arguments you can't defeat, but whose conclusions you feel threatened by.

 

You want to solve problems, not talk? First of all, this is a place of words, so to criticize talking here is ludicrous. Second of all you criticize that which you obviously know little about. What does that make you, oh unifying one? And finally, since when isn't talking about a problem a vehicle for solving it?

 

You are guilty in this post of mysogeny, and I don't care who attacks me for saying that. I guess Suryaz is more right about this here than I wished to believe. I continue to wish, always, to find non-mysogenistic men, stubbornly believing they must exist, but the likes of you always narrows the possibility just a little bit more.

 

In the light of your repeated attacks on me, on both these threads, the other one containing your whining character assassinations of me over something said elsewhere, as well as your allusions to 'something secret' that you could not speak of, as if it would EMBARASS me and all whilst I wasn't even posting on or reading this forum, I simply find it not at all credible to hear you say you did/do not abuse women. Your mysogenistic remarks to Jayradhe were also quite shocking, and to her what had she ever done to you? She has spoken many kind appreciative words to you, words which I personally had to choke on. I accused you of something, so fine, mr. cornered rat, strike out, but she did not, so your attack on her is even more mysogenistic. You are a sickening excuse for a human being. Unfortunately for you, I'm not a victim anymore, and you gonna strike out at me, I may ignore it for a while, but you go too far, and I'll strike back with the power of years of austerities and spiritual evolution behind me. I do this on behalf of women everywhere, especially women who are giving their lives to Krsna, who are mysogenized daily by your sort. I desire always to disseminate truth, and this is in Krsna's service. You know Him, He's the little blue boy you prefer to ignore in your impersonal obsession with Srimati Radharani.

 

And while you're enjoying your pitty pills, please, do tell us, how did these hapless women abuse you? Only an idiot cannot see the genuine abuse of the cases I cited, let's hear your story, but you can't give us any actual truthful evidence, can you?

 

So you think you can solve the problem of violent abusers? You can't seem to control your own anger, which is often in the form of passive anger here. You obviously understand nothing about the subject matter, so all you can do is criticize one who has not only knowledge of the phenomenon and history of it, but extended education about it. You don't want to understand, typical of abusive personalities. This isn't about my feelings here. I posted whilst residing in the position of genuine intelligence and realization, and the motive of revealing TRUTH on Krsna's behalf in the service of Srila Prabhupada, whose beloved daughters have been hideously abused in many cases in a societal structure that supported abuse via the medium of mis-application of the transcendental knowledge His Divine Grace benedicted the world with, the violent misuse of linguistics that Suryaz is trying so hard to blow the whistle on. You can't handle it, grow up.

 

You want to accuse me going off the topic, 'sexism and related topics', well if you can't get it that mysogenism falls directly under 'related topics', what can be said for your stupidity? A stupidity born of DENIAL.

 

Valaya speaks>>"Yes, I realize everything is related, but we mere men can't deal with it coming at us all mixed up like this. Our minds and emotions don't function like yours!"

'Mere men', what a load of false humility sarcastic bullhoggery. So your mind functions on what, the animal platform? Cornered mr. rat, criticize those whose intelligence you can't begin to comprehend. You're gonna solve lots of problems that way, sure you are.

 

Valaya speaks>>"Maybe we understand more than you think, after all we're here, are we not? Try to appreciate that one point at least, otherwise you'll end up `discussing` with each other with no one to help sort out the muddled mess."

If you understood, first of all you wouldn't be complaining about the indigestibility of that which you can't face. As for your presence here, you can get lost and never be heard from again for all I care. As for the other men, let them speak for themselves. And as for your sexist 'muddled mess' comment, the truth is I know quite a few women who have sorted out their lives, post-abuse trauma, with the association of mere women. So go crawl into your little hidey hole and keep lying to yourself all you want, no one will be the lesser. I, for one, do not bend or break from the onslaughts of mysogenism, nor do I miss the association of mysogenists.

 

Valaya says>>"! Somehow you manage to lump everything into one big indigestible chunk, as evidenced by such enormously long posts, confusing the hell out of us;

Well if I've lumped everything into that post, I've accomplished quite a feat of concise streamlined writing, not the opposite, and the post is quite short for having done that. Thanks for the compliment. Your confusion stems from you material dellusion. I have focussed on a very important problem, and I have also given the only solution available for victims of mysogenism, but you, knowing nothing on the matter, except your own out of control senses and anger, cannot drink in the knowledge. Your choice, I dont care, I'm used to men who don't want to know the truth. If even one victim has read my words and been inspired to remove themselves from the chains, then my effort is more than worth it. I have no respect for men who will not honestly accept the truth of these matters. Live in your own little hell of a mind, no loss to me. You're such a fony and such a sahajiya, not any kind of desirable association. I see through you, and you despise me for it, so what? You're not the first, and you won't be the last. Thanks for showing anyone who reads you with their intelligence untainted where you are really at, mr. megalomania. You've done readers a service, if they have sincere desire to see the truth.

 

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Audarya lila]

Must the cycle continue? Who will be brave enough to end the cycle of abuse?

 

We are not these bodies, remember?

 

I suspect we all have stories of abuse to share and it may be useful if the intent is to educate and avoid finding ourselves in those situations again.

 

Suryaz made a good point about the fact that it is the lust we have in our own hearts that 'seduces' us when we see material forms. What about victim mentality? It's the environment, it's that abusive man, the abusive woman, etc. All places emphasis outside oneself and blaming the 'other'.

 

Vidura didn't exhibit victim mentality when he was abused by his brother. He accepted the abuse as being due to his own faults and removed himslef from the place. We all have choices to make with regard to how we will act and react in any given situation.

 

In a very real sense no one can cheat you except yourself, and no one can abuse you except yourself. We are devotees and we are called to see all things, good and bad, as divine providence and keep our focus on serving Sri Guru in all circumstances.

 

My sister is a drug addict and has led a miserable life. She has always had a 'victim mentality' and has never been introspective enough to look inward for the reason for her life and circumstances.

 

Devotees are compassionate by nature and gentle. Physical and mental abuse is not a part of devotion and those who engage in such practices should be avoided and respected from a distance - as Vidura did when he encountered such a situation.

 

If you are struck or abused verbally or physically you can choose to engage in the same behavior in retaliation or you can choose to follow the path etched out for us by Lord Chaitanya and his followers.

 

We are human and all of us make mistakes. Let us see the good in others and cultivate the good in ourselves.

 

Hare krsna

 

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranaga!!!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[M-dd]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Must the cycle continue?

Certainly it will continue with continued denial, a denial which it uh is my hope to chip holes in by stating historical truth. I sure wish you could see how that was my intention.

 

Who will be brave enough to end the cycle of abuse?

I for one, and many other brave women I know.

 

We are not these bodies, remember?

 

I suspect we all have stories of abuse to share and it may be useful if the intent is to educate and avoid finding ourselves in those situations again.

I am highly insulted if you have assumed that my intentions weren't just that. I can then only assume that you read my words quite negligently and inattentively or didn't read them at all. Either way, you appear to be judging me falsely, and you are apparently pointing the finger at me as I am the one who has shared the FACTS of historical evil abuse, and I am the one who has owned up to having been a victim. Please note the past tense.

 

Suryaz made a good point about the fact that it is the lust we have in our own hearts that 'seduces' us when we see material forms. What about victim mentality?

And I made a very good explaination of why the 'victim' must see abuse for what it is and remove him/herself from the entangling conditioning of the toxic abuse and shaming of another.

 

It's the environment, it's that abusive man, the abusive woman, etc. All places emphasis outside oneself and blaming the 'other'.

 

... We all have choices to make with regard to how we will act and react in any given situation.

But why ignore the fact that the role of submission and chastity lead many women to innocently accept horrific abuses? As one of these women, I had to learn how to remove myself, and my only purpose in repeating history in it's real context is about going beyond victim mentality by understanding what abuse is in order to take the road of disentangling one's self, as opposed to sinking further into victim mentality. I do agree that the mentality must be defeated/given up, but didn't you glean that from my post written before valaya's put-down post?

 

In a very real sense no one can cheat you except yourself, and no one can abuse you except yourself. We are devotees and we are called to see all things, good and bad, as divine providence and keep our focus on serving Sri Guru in all circumstances.

And again, through misunderstandings of 'surrender', many women allowed themselves to be seriously abused, seeing it all as divine providence. Fine to see it as divine providence, but you have to come to the point of learning the tools of removing yourself before your soul is killed to the point of loosing one's whole vision of spiritual life. Why let the chains of dellusion pull us back down in the name of divine providence, when the tools are all there in the Bhagavad-gita AsItIs to begin with? I see no sense in that and only sense in finding out the phenomenon and removing oneself from it. As a survivor, I speak to victims mostly. Abusers don't want to hear anything anyway. Perhaps non-victim/non-abusers can't actually grasp what it is all about.

 

Devotees are compassionate by nature and gentle. Physical and mental abuse is not a part of devotion and those who engage in such practices should be avoided and respected from a distance - as Vidura did when he encountered such a situation.

It's pretty hard to avoid your husband, whom you have incidently made vows to keep which you don't want to break. I have personally known many women in this terribly painful dilemma, and the only way out is out, which means breaking those vows, and to come to that point one must clearly understand what abuse is and why it is the only way. No one who doesn't understand these things, on the level I'm talking, not on the parrot/scripture level, should make statements of what victims should do. One has to put divine providence into context if one is to become disentangled from the chains that bind, or one will end up down the victim path so far as to not know up from down anymore. It actually does violence to society to glibly assume the solution is so simplistic. It amounts to what Suryaz is trying to convey, a linguistic barometer for evil persons to use to back up their abusive behaviour. This is a very important point, as the results of ISKCON will show an honest look at the history and how so many husbands used 'quotes' to suppress the natural instincts of the 'victim'. And let me say something else on this. I was married for five years before I was a devotee, and I was never abused. So there was something that happened between my original karma and my devotee karma. And it happened for a reason, yes by divine providence, but for complex reasons, not just to purify my anartha riddled heart, but to teach me the value of choosing the higher istructions, for instance,'accept whatever is favourable to your Krsna consciousness, reject whatever is unfavourable', instead of lower understandings, ie. submitting to my husband, abuse included, in the hope of pleasing my spiritual master.

 

If you are struck or abused verbally or physically you can choose to engage in the same behavior in retaliation or you can choose to follow the path etched out for us by Lord Chaitanya and his followers.

 

We are human and all of us make mistakes. Let us see the good in others and cultivate the good in ourselves.

 

Hare krsna

 

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranaga!!!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

We have to discriminate too. It's very easy to see the good in an abuser and continue accepting abuse. This path leads one down into more maya though, and it is my express intent to shed light on this fact. Perhaps a pure unalloyed devotee is in no such danger, but on the path of devotional service one must learn to discriminate. You also speak of 'leaving' the abuser, and I'm trying to wake folks up to the fact of how difficult that is to do when one does not want to break his/her vows of marriage, and the principles of Krsna consciousness, and especially for women, whom have traditionally been serious in following Srila Prabhupada's instructions, including submissiveness and chastity.

 

Aspiring to be of service to the servants of the servants,

Madhavi-devi dasi

 

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 09-28-2001).]

[M-dd]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Thank you M-dd.I'm now convinced.It's full immersion for me.

Don't mention it! In case, however, it wasn't clear in my post, the reverence Dasanudas describes is also an essential part of it. Don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and take the reactions on my head!

 

 

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Must the cycle continue? Who will be brave enough to end the cycle of abuse?

 

Stonehearted: Thak you, prabhu! And who will be bold enough to end the cycle of accusation and counteraccusation, the venting. It's frustrating enough that practically everyone on these boards is anonymous. It's downright annoying that they use their anonymity to unload this kind of c*** (to borrow from a member even newer than I) on each other.

 

Audarya-lila has introduced the "victim" mentality. We have, as he said, endured plenty of abuse, regardless of whether we carry Y chromosomes. The real question is what we can and will do to end it. We may not be able to take responsibility for others, but we can resolve to gradually detach ourselves from all false designations and the exploitation and abuse that naturally follow.

 

How can we do that? We can dedicate ourselves anew to more and better chanting of the holy names of Krishna. We can make more time to hear about and reflect on the Lord's pastimes and qualities. We can find association more congenial to our life's real work--saintly devotees serious about progressive spiritual life. And we can share our realizations with ohters, both to solidify those realizations in our hearts and to benefit them.

 

This is an interesting and important enough topic to dicuss, but is it possible to do it in a way that will yield some benefit (other than catharsis)?

 

 

Audarya-lila: We are human and all of us make mistakes. Let us see the good in others and cultivate the good in ourselves.

 

Stone: Yes, let us be guna-grahi--always looking for the good qualities in others. If each of us could seriously dedicate him- or herself to living in this way, we can change the world, a person at a time.

 

Babhru das

[M-dd]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Excuse me for posting these couple of posts mixed in with these other posts on 'sexism and related topics' there is absolutely no relationship of the divine with some of these personal experiences so if it is possible I will try to edit my contributions off the thread some how.

Dandavats to the ladies and gentlemen Madhavi long time no hear How are you and yours. Gotta fly now.

Haribol Mr. Dasanudas! We are all fine thank you very much. I've loved your input except that you're not giving us much detailed expression from your poetic heart. Always happy to read your equi-poised inputs, please don't edit any of them. Give us more instead!

 

YS,

M-d.d.