Hey guys, can you help me out?

[FaithlessDevotee]

Hi, I'm 16 and have been trying to understand and believe in the Hare Krsna philosophies for a few year now.

 

I chant Hare Krsna but my heart still hasn't been captured. My family are originally Hindu but I still find it really difficult to believe in the simple things, like Krsna being the supreme for example.

 

Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong. If I could ever one day have the same degree of faith and belief some of you Vaishnava guys have in here one day, that would just be a miracle.

 

How on earth can some Vaishnava's be so sure of things, there are too many perplexities that get in the way of the philosophies validity (for me it seems anyway).

 

So just what is going wrong, for all I know the state of higher consciousness may just be some sort of secondary maya keeping us from another truth of some inconceivable nature.

 

May good luck be with all Vaishnava's on their spiritual paths.

 

And as I have once been told to chant...

 

Nitai Garanga!!

 

[shvu]

 

How on earth can some Vaishnava's be so sure of things, there are too many perplexities that get in the way of the philosophies validity (for me it seems anyway).

That's easy.

 

Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there.

 

Hope that was helpful.

 

Good luck !

 

[FaithlessDevotee]

I don't mean to be rude in any way at all (please belive me), but wouldn't that be, a bit...Stupid?

 

I hope you understand where I'm comming from, if we all just did that, wouldn't we have chaos - if people just accepted anything.

 

I mean especially in these ages for example you have many pretenders and exploiters isn't that so. In that case it would seem that problems accepting authority could be even be seen as a blessing??

 

Nitai Garanga!!

 

(Thanks for replying, this is my first post)

 

 

[shvu]

 

I don't mean to be rude in any way at all (please belive me), but wouldn't that be, a bit...Stupid?

A lot, actually.

 

While prima facie, it appears stupid to do so, if you stop to think about it, these are concepts which are beyond reason and proof. No amount of reasoning and intelligence will help. Thus the 2 options are, accept in toto or reject in toto, but don't hang in between. That is the idea.

 

agyashchAshraddadhAnashcha samshayAtmA vinashyati |

nAyam loko asti na paro na sukham samshayAtmanaha || BG 4.40 ||

 

In brief, this verse says don't doubt, for it will ruin the person.

 

Cheers

 

[FaithlessDevotee]

Okay, I see what you're saying and thanks for the contribution, but I'm in such an awful position and I don't see what I can do to better myself. Accepting all these verses seems too far fetched for myself.

 

I'm think I'm going to be living my life in this terrible way till I die and see what happens. I'll have such a terrible time trying focus at death, what to speak of performing good bhakti-yoga (I do try).

 

Trying to live a higher consciousness has only helped me to become more unstable in this world. There are so many things to now that are problems than ever before.

 

All I have gained is a lack of motivation to achieve (anything, ie. academically speaking for one etc.) in this dredded place of stay.

[shvu]

 

If I may suggest, as a 16 year old, you need to focus on education and al the things that a 16 yeard old has to do. Put religion/philopsohy, etc out of your mind for now. Since you are dubious, I think this is what you should do. It will clear up your mind, and allow you to focus on your academics, which is very very important.

 

You can always go back to religion some day, when you feel you are ready for it.

 

Cheer

 

[FaithlessDevotee]

But isn't realising Krishna and chanting, living at a higher consciousness etc. so imported in a way that they just can't even be compared.

 

I may not have faith, but I believe that this is a really important thing to do in life. We're going to die, and we don't always know when.

 

I think we all know of a couple examples. Am I expected to just be able to out everything down for a few years?? All this crucial knowledge and wisdom??

 

Nitai Garanga!!

 

[shvu]

 

I think this question has to be answered by the devotees on this forum. Perhaps some of them have gone thru this phase in their own lives. Hopefully someone can offer some useful insights.

 

Good luck

[FaithlessDevotee]

Hi, I just want to thank you for everything.

 

I know you've been replying pretty fast and tommorrow I shall come here to check for any replies for it's well into the evening here in the UK.

 

I'm also sorry for any burdens and/or perplexities I may have caused people looking into this thread for I'm sure it happens.

 

Nitai Garanga!!

Gora Nitai!!

[Audarya lila]

Originally posted by shvu:

That's easy.

 

Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there.

 

Shvu - I would have expected a little better from you. You know this is completely false and foolish and is also completely against the Vedic teachings. To point out the obvious and correct your foolish remark, we are to use our intelligence, discrimination, experience and reasoning to their fullest extent in pursuit of truth. This is acknowledged in all scriputure and any bona fide teacher will instruct his/her students properly in this regard.

 

You obviously have a problem with subjective evidence which is not subject to reasoning and intellectual pursuit. Here, of course, I am referring to the question of God and soul and spiritual life.

 

There are many ways of living and pursuing happiness and fulfillment in life. There are all types of people we can associate ourselves with.

 

Saints and sadhus are characterized by certain qualities that they exhibit. We all exhibit certain qualities and affect those who come into our association accordingly. Spiritual life is begun by associating with advanced souls. Through their association and service we become eligible ourselves to tread the path of devotion. Ones heart begins to open in the presence of saintly devotees. This is the secret to begin to understand what treasures lie with the scriptures and what joy awaits us through the practice of sadhana. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. That you have not tasted anything doesn't mean that others haven't.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Dear Sanjay,

 

What you need is good association. Shvu is right in instructing you to focus on your studies. Do not neglect your duties.

 

The reality is that we are in danger at every moment and it is foolish to think as Shvu has suggested that 'I will forget spiritual pursuits for now and take them up later' - there may not be a later. Act now. Find a sadhu. Seek out advanced devotees and in their association you will find that your faith naturally increases and you will begin to relish the Holy Name. This is the real secret to spiritual life. We all need good association. If you are serious, Krsna will provide you with inspiration and association so that you can advance nicely.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[karthik_v]

Hare Krishna,

 

"Faith sans philosophical understanding is mere sentiment. Philosophy sans faith is mere speculation".

 

-Srila Prabhupad

 

So, the question of following blindly doesn't arise. You haven't stated as to what you find difficult to accept. If you state that, we can address the specific issue.

 

Often, we try to fit scriptural sayings within the ambit of empirical reasoning. If we do that we may find some anomolies. That doesn't mean the vedic philosophy is inadequate. In fact the very opposite is true. A good way to go about is to ask youself if every phenomenon can be explained by empiricism. You find that it doesn't. So, avoid trying to understand philosophy empirically.

 

On the other hand accept the axiomatic truth of Krishna on faith (as we accept mass in physics) and then try to understand the philosophy. Then things will make sense.

[ggohil]

Originally posted by shvu:

That's easy.

 

Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there.

 

Hope that was helpful.

 

Good luck !



I do not thing anyone has to accept what one reads in the vedas without questioning it.

 

Apparently, the vedic literature does not make sense to Shvu, so he has universally proclaimed it, for all mankind, to be beyond questioning, thinking and understanding.

 

I have asked questions and reasoned with the vedic literature. The literature has started making sense to me.

 

Secondly, unless Shvu, is sitting in all the devotees hearts, he really does not know whether the devotees have accepted the literature without asking questions or whether the vedas makes sense to the devotees.

 

[shvu]

 

I suggest those who are infuriated with my logic, to voice their complain on a new thread, I am starting. The reason is, to avoid digression.

 

Cheers

[leyh]

Originally posted by shvu:

I suggest those who are infuriated with my logic, to voice their complain on a new thread, I am starting. The reason is, to avoid digression.

 

Cheers

Shvu:

You are not writing logic,but absolute nonsense.You write:"Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there." This is a total misrepresentation of Krsna Consciousness.

 

In a 1971 lecture on the Srimad Bhagavatam, His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said:

“Don't follow blindly. Following blindly something, that is not good. That will not stay. But one should take everything with logic. But the servants of God, they put everything in logic. Caitanyera dayara katha karaha vicara. If you study the Caitanya's philosophy with logic and argument... Don't go by sentiment.” ((Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1971 710106SB.CAL)

 

 

These words from the pure devotee instantly refute your nonsensical accusation that Krsna Consciousness is about blind and unquestioning acceptance.

 

Faithless,if you're reading this,I would strongly advice you to take everything Shvu says about Krsna or Krsna Consciousness with a few pinches of salt.He is an atheist who doesn't even accept the existence of Krsna.I don't think its a very good idea to inquire about Krsna from him.

 

Shvu,I'm sure you won't argue with my logic here.Would you accept legal advice from a gangster who doesn't recognize the existence of the law?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-26-2001).]

[talasiga]

Originally posted by FaithlessDevotee:

I chant Hare Krsna but my heart still hasn't been captured. My family are originally Hindu but I still find it really difficult to believe in the simple things, like Krsna being the supreme for example.

 

Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong.

Dear "Faithless Devotee"

 

Methinks it is your name that is the impediment. With a name like this you may as well call yourself Oxy Moron because that is what "Faithless Devotee" is - an oxymoron.

 

Given the sort of questions you are coming up

with you might like to change your name to

Darasathi Dix. Or perhaps Darasathi Dixit.

(Yes , that ought to fix it.)

 

BTW, if are really and truly

only 16 years old (as you

say) please ignore my

response.

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Caitanyachandra]

Interesting conversation here. Looks very played out. Is there a movie going on here?

 

Anyway.

 

Faith comes from merciful devotional BHAKTi.

 

Anyway, do your duties as the Lord ordains in his song to Arjune, Bh***, & others.

 

As for your concealed agnosticism. We have to get rid of the ego and get to our center of existence. The jiva. By retracting the 5 senses, mind substance, ego, intellect, and subtle body into the material pradhana THEN we can start to see things as they are. HOwever you are still under mayeek energy therefore it is illusion still. Therefore best thing to do is perform devotional service and good thing will happen.

[Caitanyachandra]

please take this offensive skit off. it is very ugly and offensive shvu.

 

;D

 

[This message has been edited by Caitanyachandra (edited 09-26-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Dear Sanjay,

Greetings to you and welcome to these forums. As much as some people may discourage you in your quest for Krsna, there are many well-wishers who will encourage and help increase your faith as Audaryya-Lila Prabhu has stressed. Good association is very important in Krsna consciousness. The sabateurs of faith will always be there and there is an art in side stepping them. Recognize them and try to gravitate to those your heart directs you to. In the beginning stages of Krsna consciousness one can go through an offensive transition before we become more tolerant, humble and honourable to others.

Real Krsna consciousness when you study it, you will find that the closer one moves to divinity the further away you may feel, therefore it is not altogether incorrect to feel I have no faith or love for Krsna. But if one is feeling they know Krsna so well, so close to him, and that we are already saved we should exercise a little caution with such sentiments. Our highest teacher's example in the line of Krsna consciousness that we follow through Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, whether it be Chaitanya Himself, Srimati Radharani, Krsna's most beloved or Srila RAghunath das Goswami and Srila Rupa Goswami, all taught that they have no love for Krsna when actually they were fully absorbed in pure unadulterated prema, ie divine love. This is the sign of a genuine vaishnava. No false prestige.

So if you are sincerely wanting your faith to develop full bloom and become a tangible reality in your life, not just another belief system that is temporary, it is recommended to find the company of genuine sadhus, ie sadhu-sanga, from this company bhajana-kriya is increased,which is the process many of us here follow of regularly hearing, chanting and remembering the pastimes of the Lord. From bhajana-kriya comes anartha-nivrtti,where the unwanted bad habits in our life and the undesireable things that plague our heart are eliminated through practicising sadhana bhakti. This leads eventually to getting a sustained unshakeable confidence in the eternal reality of the Lord and an incomparable taste that will make all previous experience pale into insignificance. As one surrenders further unto the will of the Supreme Lord further steps are revealed by His Divine Grace which ultimately leads to pure love and devotion which is truly what this Gaudiya Vaishnavism is all about. There is much wonderful literature to confirm and support your progress along the way. Through the loving connections you make to various devotees of Sri Krsna, you may be referred to many of these writings that will further give joy to your devotional life.

You sound very fortunate at such a young age to have some attraction through your past sukrti ie pious merits, to this life-giving path.

Try not to be deterred or discouraged by any opposition and those who may play the devil's advocate on your path. It just makes it all the more valuable when you overcome these obstacles. I hope you can keep visiting this forum and look forward to your continued contribution. If there is any way we can be of some assistance, please feel free to ask.

 

Sanjay: Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong. If I could ever one day have the same degree of faith and belief some of you Vaishnava guys have in here one day, that would just be a miracle.

 

Das: Not necessarily that you are doing anything wrong, it's just in the system of vaishnavism that we try to aspire to, it is generally recommended that for the Holy Name of Krsna to truly blossom in your life that one approach a genuine spiritual teacher who themselves are experiencing Krsna , not whimsically but with sincere submission and enquiry, and from them one can receive the seed of real Krsna consciousness. The nectar of the Name is transferred from one who has it, from master to disciple. As you may be familiar this is called the parampara system where the disciple attains a connection to a line of spiritual saints that Krsna comes to us through, somewhat like your electrical current when your house is connected to the power supply. Through the agents of that company all facilities will start to work so your chanting will have more potency. Sincerity is the key.

 

 

Always at your service

Mr das

Thank you dearly for your well wishes and likewise we wish you all the best. Gaur Hari

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by FaithlessDevotee:

But isn't realising Krishna and chanting, living at a higher consciousness etc. so imported in a way that they just can't even be compared.

 

I may not have faith, but I believe that this is a really important thing to do in life. We're going to die, and we don't always know when.

 

I think we all know of a couple examples. Am I expected to just be able to out everything down for a few years?? All this crucial knowledge and wisdom??

 

Nitai Garanga!!

Just a short follow up to this extended post of yours. What you say about no one knows when the time of death arrives, therefore we should utilize every moment we have in our hand to re-establish our loving relationship with the Lord of our heart. It isn't necessary to put education on hold as it can go hand in hand with development of your Krsna consciousness. All education can be utilized in the service of the Lord and many of our acharyyas, ie teachers by example, were well educated but at the same time nurtured their tendancies towards Krsna consciousness. I know many devotees who dovetail much of their assignments at school to Krsna consciousness helping everyone in their class and sometimes beyond. It isn't recommended to become overly fanatical but if you take the essence of Krsna consciusness

which is to love God and likewise love others to the best of your ability. This will no doubt affect all your friends and contemporaries. At the same time Krsna gives real intelligence and may well help your grades at school.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

If I could ever one day have the same degree of faith and belief some of you Vaishnava guys have in here one day, that would just be a miracle.

For faith to be strong, one must remove the doubts within. This is not done by ignoring them or blindly believing in a doctrine of philosophy. In the Bhagavad-gita we find that Arjuna also had many doubts that came up while hearing Bhagavad-gita. He did not put them aside and follow blindly. He raised his questions to Lord Krishna and had his doubts removed.

 

The state of "asamshaya" or freedom from doubt is not one of blind belief, but one of complete knowledge. People such as Shvu are unable to see the distinction between freedom from doubt through knowledge, and freedom from doubt through blind belief. The Gita teaches us that we need to cultivate spiritual knowledge of the absolute truth. That knowledge will manifest through devotional enquiry and submissive service to sadhus. There is no other way to acquire spiritual knowledge. It is not something external to us that we can learn. It is present within us, covered by the darkness of avidya. We need to cleanse our heart through sadhu-seva, serving the saintly souls, and by enquiring from them about our true self nature.

 

Some want us to believe that religion means blind following without question. They make such claims without having read the Gita, for the Gita is nothing but questions and answers between Arjuna and Lord Krishna.

 

In reality one will find more blind belief in other fields of worldly knowledge, where one must simply memorize and repeat facts and figures without any opportunity to question them. I am sure you have sufficient experience of such blind belief in your school studies.

 

Krishna's teachings are based on factual perception of the results through experience, not on blind belief. In the Gita He tells to Arjuna:

 

pratyakshavagamam dharmyam

su-sukham kartum avyayam

 

"One who engages in devotional service will directly perceive the results with his senses. He will experience an unending spiritual bliss."

 

Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong. If I could ever one day have the same degree of faith and belief some of you Vaishnava guys have in here one day, that would just be a miracle.

Perhaps you can raise your doubts here in regards to the philosophy of the Gita and everyone will discuss these topics. Otherwise if you would prefer, you can send me an email and we can continue the discussion in that manner.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Some want us to believe that religion means blind following without question. They make such claims without having read the Gita, for the Gita is nothing but questions and answers between Arjuna and Lord Krishna. (Jndas)

 

Here we can argue if Gaudiya-vaisnavas really read Gita. As Gita 18.66 is to be considered as the essence of all instructions given in Gita, in that sloka it is clearly stated that one should abandon all kind of religion, including for certain Vaisnava-dharma, yuga-dharma, etc.

 

If one claims to read Gita and is even distributing so many Gitas, and he is proselytizing on Gita’s instructions, how can he follows practices such as cow’s worshiping, bush’s worshiping, idol’s washing, mantra-japa, and so on? These are all religious practices that are rejected by Krsna in Gita 18.66!!!

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by shvu:

More tripe. A gangster is well aware of the existence of law and is also smart enough to know how to go around it. Try a better example next time.

 

It would have been better for a strong representative of iskcon such as you, to offer some useful advice to faithless's questions, instead of whining about me. btw don't expect me to respond to your shallow postings in future, for I most certainly won't. You can consider yourself to have had the last word.

 

Cheers

More nonsense from Shvu this time.

 

Nonsense 1:Shvu writes:When a long list of fake verses were offered by your masters to prove the "divinity" of chaitanya, how many of these verses did you verify? Did you even know, there is such a list? You and all your iskcon brethren accepted the claim in full, without doubting it for a moment. See what I mean? Somehow I don't think you will. It requires at least average IQ, which is more than what I can expect from you." In this rather spiteful words,Shvu's ignorance is totally exposed,for he does not know me personally so how does he know that I have accepted the claims of the Vaisnava acaryas without doubting it for "a moment"? How does he know whether I have had doubts or not? Those who make reckless speculations about people that they have no knowledge of are misguided.

 

Nonsense 2:Shvu's trend of baseless allegation is continued in his absurd claim that I am an "iskcon representative".I am not from ISKCON.I have never been to an ISKCON temple,and I have only physically associated an ISKCON representative once,and that was a chance meeting.

 

Nonsense 3:I asked Shvu whether he would take legal advice from a gangster and his reply was "A gangster is well aware of the existence of law and is also smart enough to know how to go around it." Is Shvu saying that if he had to face a lawsuit,he would seek out a gangster for legal advice?

 

Nonsense 4:Shvu writes:"btw don't expect me to respond to your shallow postings in future." I don't know about my other posts,but I don't see how my last post can be considered shallow.Shvu made a baseless allegation that Krsna Consciousness is about blind and unquestioning acceptance and I quoted Srila Prabhupada to prove that this was not true.Why is that shallow?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-27-2001).]

[valaya]

Dear leyh prabhu, you really need to know the history on these forums, personal and philosophical, even to begin to understand what's happening, let alone why. Also, many of us have another history with ISKCON and it's environs, going back 20-30 years.

 

My advice is to not get into it too deeply with those who seem to be making a career, or at least a hobby, out of dissention. Why shvu would want to waste his time with fools such as we is quite beyond me. Still, he is obviously highly intelligent and has many other qualities that help keep things interesting. His unique sense of humor is one trait I personally appreciate.

 

BTW how's your spoken English? Maybe we could speak by phone sometime! valaya RR

[talasiga]

Originally posted by valaya:

Maybe we could speak by phone sometime! valaya

The whole world is ringing

And you are so hung up

on the telephone ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com