Hey guys, can you help me out?

[dasanudas]

Here's a young guy just asking for a simple bit of guidance in increasing his faith. Why do some on this forum have to turn his heart and mind into another battlefield, I think it would serve new people who visit this place if the regulars who take pleasure in duelling with each other keep it on threads that carry that mood, or maybe there should be a place devoted to War, difference, dissention, offence,vindictiveness, scorn, argument, slander, and all the other stuff and anyone who has some, can hang out there and dump on each other, or if one wakes up in another bad day you just get into it with others in that mood, down at the dumping ground, call it 'Kuruksetra'.

It may well be the flavour of the month, but don't some of you ever grow tired of it? Can't we change channels. It just makes me wonder if others may wish to participate here, but they've got to wait for a moment to come in between bullets and suicide bombings, we don't deny this is the nature of the world and the age we're living in and perhaps some don't wish others to taste this particular kind of KC, but according to my understanding this example isn't the Krsna Consciouness that most are searching for. I just request of the contributors to give the newcomers a chance to even get in the door.

Is this unreasonable to ask for just a little discernment where devotees have their skirmishes, or am I just out of step with the rasa.

I have to excuse myself for expressing this on Sanjays thread, but he must be asking himself what a lot of it has to do with his question, so I hope you are still with us and the responses haven't blown you away.

Ys

das

[valaya]

Originally posted by talasiga:

The whole world is ringing

And you are so hung up

on the telephone ?

 

 

 

 

You were offered the same opportunity for more personal interaction, but preferred to remain hidden while sniping at us with `poetry`. Sad...

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Here's a young guy just asking for a simple bit of guidance in increasing his faith. Why do some on this forum have to turn his heart and mind into another battlefield, I think it would serve new people who visit this place if the regulars who take pleasure in duelling with each other keep it on threads that carry that mood, or maybe there should be a place devoted to War, difference, dissention, offence,vindictiveness, scorn, argument, slander, and all the other stuff and anyone who has some, can hang out there and dump on each other, or if one wakes up in another bad day you just get into it with others in that mood, down at the dumping ground, call it 'Kuruksetra'.

It may well be the flavour of the month, but don't some of you ever grow tired of it? Can't we change channels. It just makes me wonder if others may wish to participate here, but they've got to wait for a moment to come in between bullets and suicide bombings, we don't deny this is the nature of the world and the age we're living in and perhaps some don't wish others to taste this particular kind of KC, but according to my understanding this example isn't the Krsna Consciouness that most are searching for. I just request of the contributors to give the newcomers a chance to even get in the door.

Is this unreasonable to ask for just a little discernment where devotees have their skirmishes, or am I just out of step with the rasa.

I have to excuse myself for expressing this on Sanjays thread, but he must be asking himself what a lot of it has to do with his question, so I hope you are still with us and the responses haven't blown you away.

Ys

das

When it takes most of one's energies to avoid getting caught up oneself in this nonsense, there is little left to use in mediation attempts, let alone trying to encourage or inspire. Like I've said before more than once, if I had any other life...this is my `devotee` association and service, probably better than I deserve. As far as I'm concerned, my next body can't come soon enough! RR

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Valaya, you are SO dramatic! In the words of Sri Chaitanya, "Your body is not yours to give up, it belongs to Radha and Krishna", and you are using it for Their Service, so what's the problem?

 

be of good cheer, a new beginning is near

[talasiga]

Originally posted by valaya:

You were offered the same opportunity for more personal interaction, but preferred to remain hidden while sniping at us with `poetry`. Sad...

 

If you don't like what I write

You will hate me when I ring !

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It just makes me wonder if others may wish to participate here, but they've got to wait for a moment to come in between bullets and suicide bombings...

I have to agree with this. From now on, if you see a new person posting, please keep the guns in the holsters. I will take special care on threads by new participants and will delete any thing that is not a fair, honest and gentle reply to the person's questions.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

When a long list of fake verses were offered by your masters to prove the "divinity" of chaitanya, how many of these verses did you verify? Did you even know, there is such a list? You and all your iskcon brethren accepted the claim in full, without doubting it for a moment. See what I mean? Somehow I don't think you will. It requires at least average IQ, which is more than what I can expect from you.

Actually this is just a cheap attempt at disinformation. Shvu himself has never tried to verify whether the verses are authentic or fake, so it is quite a meaninless discussion. He just takes the words of others like Srisha Rao, who has a personal dislike of Gaudiya vaishnavism.

 

I have verified the authenticity of the majority of the verses provided, and we have the texts here in our library if anyone wants to confirm it.

 

There are multiple editions of Puranas, and not every Purana will contain the same verses, but the texts we have are not from Bengal, they are all from South India - mostly from Tanjavur, Chennai, and Mysore.

 

It would have been quite a feat for Gaudiya's to interpolate texts in South Indian royal libraries, and then to have companies like Motilal Banarsidas take those manuscripts for their printing and publishing work. It would have required intensive work spanning hundreds of years in a place where Gaudiya vaishnavism is nonexistent.

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Valaya, you are SO dramatic! In the words of Sri Chaitanya, "Your body is not yours to give up, it belongs to Radha and Krishna", and you are using it for Their Service, so what's the problem?

 

be of good cheer, a new beginning is near

 

Thank you, Bhaktavasya prabhu. RR

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Some want us to believe that religion means blind following without question. They make such claims without having read the Gita, for the Gita is nothing but questions and answers between Arjuna and Lord Krishna. (Jndas)

 

Here we can argue if Gaudiya-vaisnavas really read Gita. As Gita 18.66 is to be considered as the essence of all instructions given in Gita, in that sloka it is clearly stated that one should abandon all kind of religion, including for certain Vaisnava-dharma, yuga-dharma, etc.

 

If one claims to read Gita and is even distributing so many Gitas, and he is proselytizing on Gita’s instructions, how can he follows practices such as cow’s worshiping, bush’s worshiping, idol’s washing, mantra-japa, and so on? These are all religious practices that are rejected by Krsna in Gita 18.66!!!

 

All prescribed practices are valid, but some have increased potency due to being more personal. Absolute Truth is a person possessing all power and the more intimate our relationship, the more powerful the connection.

 

Personal relationship always transcends impersonal religion, by it's very nature. External packaging can be confusing, but `it's what's inside that counts...`

 

JAI RADHE!

 

 

[shvu]

Shvu:

You are not writing logic,but absolute nonsense.You write:"Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there." This is a total misrepresentation of Krsna Consciousness.

 

In a 1971 lecture on the Srimad Bhagavatam, His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said:

“Don't follow blindly. Following blindly something, that is not good. That will not stay. But one should take everything with logic. But the servants of God, they put everything in logic. Caitanyera dayara katha karaha vicara. If you study the Caitanya's philosophy with logic and argument... Don't go by sentiment.” ((Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1971 710106SB.CAL)

 

These words from the pure devotee instantly refute your nonsensical accusation that Krsna Consciousness is about blind and unquestioning acceptance.

 

Faithless,if you're reading this,I would strongly advice you to take everything Shvu says about Krsna or Krsna Consciousness with a few pinches of salt.He is an atheist who doesn't even accept the existence of Krsna.I don't think its a very good idea to inquire about Krsna from him.

Having seen the quality of your postings in the past, my initial reaction was to simply ignore your drivel, but since your tone was pretty strong about "logic and reason", here is something for you.

 

When a long list of fake verses were offered by your masters to prove the "divinity" of chaitanya, how many of these verses did you verify? Did you even know, there is such a list? You and all your iskcon brethren accepted the claim in full, without doubting it for a moment. See what I mean? Somehow I don't think you will. It requires at least average IQ, which is more than what I can expect from you.

 

Shvu,I'm sure you won't argue with my logic here.Would you accept legal advice from a gangster who doesn't recognize the existence of the law?

More tripe. A gangster is well aware of the existence of law and is also smart enough to know how to go around it. Try a better example next time.

 

It would have been better for a strong representative of iskcon such as you, to offer some useful advice to faithless's questions, instead of whining about me. btw don't expect me to respond to your shallow postings in future, for I most certainly won't. You can consider yourself to have had the last word.

 

Cheers

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by valaya:

Dear leyh prabhu, you really need to know the history on these forums, personal and philosophical, even to begin to understand what's happening, let alone why. Also, many of us have another history with ISKCON and it's environs, going back 20-30 years.

 

My advice is to not get into it too deeply with those who seem to be making a career, or at least a hobby, out of dissention. Why shvu would want to waste his time with fools such as we is quite beyond me. Still, he is obviously highly intelligent and has many other qualities that help keep things interesting. His unique sense of humor is one trait I personally appreciate.

 

BTW how's your spoken English? Maybe we could speak by phone sometime! valaya RR

Dear valaya prabhu:

Personally,I don't like to engage in argumentative debate,but in this thread,Shvu had tried to mislead a devotee inquiring about Krsna by making a baseless allegation that Krsna Consciousness is about blind and unaccepting acceptance.I had to write something...

Shvu may have a "unique sense of humor" but it is totally misguided when he constantly uses it to make sarcastic barbs at Lord Caitanya and the Vaishnava acaryas.

 

I like to think that my spoken English is passable.In Singapore,English is widely read and spoken and I have had lots of opportunity to practice.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 09-28-2001).]

[shvu]

 

I have to agree with this. From now on, if you see a new person posting, please keep the guns in the holsters. I will take special care on threads by new participants and will delete any thing that is not a fair, honest and gentle reply to the person's questions.

I gave 3 replies to faithless. Were they out of the category of fair, honest and gentle?

 

Just to clarify, I have not singled out KC, in these 3 replies like some immature people jumped to assume. I was referring to devotees in general and that covers every devotee in the world.

 

Amazing fact: There are devotees on planet earth, who have nothing to do with KC.

 

Cheers

 

 

[shvu]

 

Actually this is just a cheap attempt at disinformation. Shvu himself has never tried to verify whether the verses are authentic or fake, so it is quite a meaninless discussion.

Perhaps you forgot the discussion about the verse from Shvetashwatara upanishad, etc that went on here? Or are you just pretending to have forgotten it?

 

He just takes the words of others like Srisha Rao, who has a personal dislike of Gaudiya vaishnavism.

O Yes ! Shrisha Rao again !!! You can't talk for long without connecting the two of us. I am as genuine as a duplicate rolex watch, which means all my info has to be from some other source. You have me all figured out, haven't you?

 

I have verified the authenticity of the majority of the verses provided, and we have the texts here in our library if anyone wants to confirm it.

Let us not bother with Puranas which have multiple versions. That is reason enough to dismiss them. Shvetashwatara upanishad, the Vishnu sahsranama and the Bhagavatam should do. You know very well that all 3 are bogus.

 

And this is beside the point anyway. One certain Srila from KC was strongly talking about logic, reasoning, questioning, etc. The question that I asked was if this "pure devotee" had bothered or even thought of verifying the list. That was the topic to begin with.

 

btw, I looked at your photographs and I think they are cool.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jndas: Actually this is just a cheap attempt at disinformation. Shvu himself has never tried to verify whether the verses are authentic or fake, so it is quite a meaninless discussion. He just takes the words of others like Srisha Rao, who has a personal dislike of Gaudiya vaishnavism. I have verified the authenticity of the majority of the verses provided, and we have the texts here in our library if anyone wants to confirm it.

 

Satyaraj: Actually who you are trying to disinform? We were questioning a very detached point during these discussions about the evidences of Caitanya’s divinity: “Where are the sruti texts that confirm his divinity, found out before his advent and easily available nowadays?”

 

As you might remember, the sruti texts were pointed out by some Gaudiyas (including by the leaders of my own math), but none of them were bona fide as they weren’t even remotely connected with this subject matter and some were simply non-existent.

 

We also had extensively discussed the proofs that Gaudiyas had pointed out from several smrtis, Itihasas, and Pañcaratras but none of them were conclusive, as most were simply made after Caitanya’s advent, and many were clear interpolations, and so on.

 

I personally had sent many e-mails asking for these proofs and comments to Narayana Maharaja, Tirtha Maharaja, Jagatji, and many other erudite Gaudiyas. Some had told me that these proofs would be published at July. I am waiting!

 

I confess that it was a big shock to notice that these evidences where non-existent, false, or misleading, and that many people that I had trusted were simply parroting some info from the past without any further verification .

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

We also had extensively discussed the proofs that Gaudiyas had pointed out from several smrtis, Itihasas, and Pañcaratras but none of them were conclusive as most were simply made after Caitanya’s advent...

It is merely your opinion that these texts were edited after Chaitanya. I have pointed out that we possess multiple manuscripts of texts originating in South Indian royal libraries that could not have been interpolated by Gaudiya follows. Your answer is that, "Hey I know they were written after Chaitanya, after all I am in Brazil and I've

read Amar Chitra Katha comic books."

 

Don't mind if I don't take you seriously.

 

...and many were clear interpolations, and so on.

This from someone whose knowledge of sanskrit extends to "Namas te, welcome to air India." What do you know about interpolations and methods to determine them?

 

[Guest guest]

Jndas: I have pointed out that we possess multiple manuscripts of texts originating in South Indian royal libraries that could not have been interpolated by Gaudiya follows.

 

Satyaraj: Oh, that is a sound proof indeed! What age are they? Maybe 200 years old? No more than that, as in South India’s weather they simply wouldn’t be conserved more than that.

 

Don't mind if I don't take you seriously. Cult members aren’t to be taken as bona fide people anywhere.

 

And I might ask you, as you have these sound proofs, “What do you know about interpolations and methods to determine them?”

Anyway, we weren’t talking about Puranas, we were talking about sruti, but you have no intelligence to distingue both things.

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by talasiga:

If you don't like what I write

You will hate me when I ring !

 

 

 

 

Dear Talasiga, Please forgive any wrong assumptions or misperceptions on my part. I do like what you write, though often I'm not at all sure of my ability to grasp much of your meaning. You are obviously a deep, sensitive devotee and that's why I originally reached out for a closer personal connection by phone.

 

I sense that you may appreciate the value of painful separation in love which enables each one of us to individually relate emotionally with Srimati Radharani. That, as you and everyone else here must know by now, is my sole area of interest which I see as the key to everything else.

 

What does bother me is that sometimes a poetic response may not be appropriate and can even seem trite. Certainly, too much of even a good thing can provoke a negative reaction. Do you really want to communicate or just be cute? Others here use flowery glorification of gurus, or vast scriptural quotations, to avoid truly personal sharing.

 

After awhile those that appear to be refusing/unable to go deeper on a more intimate level start appearing to me as more like Krsna than Radhika, and my concern is only with Her. Since I believe we are all part and parcel of the internal potency personified as Sri Radha, those who hold onto Krsna exclusively and actually begin to emulate Him, even at His most charming, quickly become distasteful to me. This includes provocative teasing beyond a certain point...

 

My position is absolutely clear: when Krsna's `playfulness` brings pain and tears to Radharani and Her girlfriends, including His abandoning them to leave Vrndavana, my sympathies lie ONLY with them; while my anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. focus ENTIRELY on HIM. I am not at all interested in hearing any philosophical or shastric explanation that these are just `playful pastimes`. For those that are involved, they are very serious indeed. At least that's my reality.

 

Maybe when I become more purified, I will see things in a wholly different perspective. For now, I take this as deadly serious and my entire emotional self is firmly committed at the expense of everything else, including close relationships with other human beings (family, friends, romance, etc.).

 

I had thought you might be desirous of reciprocating such subject matter heart-to-heart, but you are not so alone as I since you do have a wife, at least. I'm also doubtful that your living situation is at all similar to the wretched sordid poverty of my own. That is not to say you, or anyone else, is not capable of experiencing what I'm describing, just that the cutting edge of desperation may not be quite so sharp...

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Audarya lila]

Had Krsna not left Vrndavana or sent Uddhava there with a message we would not know the glories of Srimati Radharani and the gopis. Had Krsna not left the rasa dance and left Radhika alone we would not know the glories of Sankirtan and we would not fully grasp who Lord Chaitanya is.

 

Once when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was at Radha Kunda with several of his disciples they saw a family circumambulating her. One disciple commented that they must have such love for Srimati Radharani. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that their vision is completely different than ours. They are interested in Srimati Radharani because she is associated with Krsna. For us it is exactly the opposite, we are only interested in Krsna because he is associated with Srimati Radharani.

 

Anyway, for sure Lord Chaitanya is none other than Krsna himself and he has taken on the bhava of Srimati Radharani. His very name says it all - Sri Krsna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[FaithlessDevotee]

OH BOY!!

 

Well, where shall I start? First of all I thank everyone for their contributions. I have only just returned to this thread this moment after recieving a personal e-mail from someone in this forum which reminded me about my earlier post - so I decided to come and see how things were going.

 

So this is where I am after reading the 42 or so posts, replying to you guys. I read many questions, but unfortunately I don't have the time this moment to answer them all, but I will answer one in regard to my doubts/perplexities/questions concerning the Hare Krsna philosophy...

 

Forgive me for the accuracy of this question, I haven't looked into the books for all the references etc.

 

1) I have noticed many, many, many, times in the philosophy that great stress and priority was given to learning the 4 Vedas and performing sacrifices etc. all in the name of achieving the heavenly planets. I know this was the case in the past and that this was approved by the archarya's and incarnations. But why?

 

Why on earth does anyone want to attain heavenly planets if all that will happen is that you will fall back down and probably return to being an animal at some point. Why wasn't Bhakti-yoga stressed, or hadn't it been introduced (that can't be). What's the deal with this sort of preaching?

 

This is completely materialistic and goes against almost everything to do with Bhakti-Yoga. From having read, it seems that at that time pure sprituality was all about learning the 4 Vedas well, performing sacrifices atc. all to just to get to the heavenly plantes (what to speak of any spiritual eternal places - it's as if an eternal relationship with the Supreme was viewed as being...second rate (or was it even encouraged or mentioned, I don't think so).

 

You guys can probably spot a million mistakes here, but I hope you see what I'm saying from this very badly phrased question.

 

I am sure from what I have read that the 4 Vedas were all about attaining heavenly planets and that it was encouraged GREATLY as if nothing else was more intelligent (anything like Bhakti-Yoga).

[talasiga]

Dear Valaya:

 

valaya: Please forgive any wrong assumptions

or misperceptions on my part. I do like

what you write, though often I'm not at all sure

of my ability to grasp much of your meaning.

talasiga: It is not my meanings that

need to be grasped. The "poems" may be mine

but I can neither own their meanings nor ever

know them all. I can only respectfully ask that

you approach the serious ones openly and

honourably. Thank You.

 

_______

 

valaya: You are obviously a deep, sensitive

devotee and that's why I originally reached out

for a closer personal connection by phone.

 

talasiga: I am sorry but I dont get much

deeper in communication than most of what I write here.

Please see

URL=http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000017.html]http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000017.html

which you have ignored.

 

______

 

valaya: I sense that you may appreciate the

value of painful separation in love which enables each

one of us to individually relate emotionally

with Srimati Radharani.

 

talasiga: I have no choice.

 

______

 

valaya: That, as you and everyone else here must

know by now, is my sole area of interest which

I see as the key to everything else.

 

talasiga: Personally, I find your

tendency to align your deepest feelings to some

stifling dialectic a little frightening.

 

______

 

valaya: What does bother me is that sometimes a poetic

response may not be appropriate and can even seem trite.

Certainly, too much of even a good thing can

provoke a negative reaction.

 

talasiga: Sometimes I am bothered by this also.

Actually I do not mostly set out to write some poetry.

I tend to respond to things from,

what I would best describe as, an intuitive

point and, in honouring that intuitive response,

try not to clutter it too much

with a lecture style of writing. This honouring process

may incidentally result in "poetry"

or poetic prose.

 

______

 

valaya: Do you really want to communicate

or just be cute?

 

talasiga: Show me anything significantly

cute and I will respond to this.

 

______

 

valaya: Others here use flowery glorification

of gurus, or vast scriptural quotations, to avoid truly

personal sharing.

 

talasiga: I cannot answer for them.

Generally, that style of writing does not suit me

but I cannot condemn it. Krishna may require such

a style of me sometime.

 

______

 

valaya: After awhile those that appear to be

refusing/unable to go deeper on a more intimate

level start appearing to me as more like Krsna than Radhika,

and my concern is only with Her.

 

talasiga: From the perspective of my personal

experience, this is a very limited appreciation

of Radha Krishna. Regretably, as I do not

have any qualification to be your Guru I cannot

help you in any deliberate capacity.

 

______

 

valaya: Since I believe we are all

part and parcel of the internal potency personified

as Sri Radha, those who hold onto Krsna exclusively

and actually begin to emulate Him, even

at His most charming, quickly become distasteful to me.

 

talasiga: Please trust your Intuition.

If you intuit that I am emulating Him,

avoid me like the plague.

At another time, Intuition may review the situation

for you and you may see me differently

if at all relevant.

 

______

 

valaya: This includes provocative teasing beyond a certain point...

 

talasiga: I don't think comical responses such as "if you dont

like what I write you will hate me when I ring"

are provacative. There is even an element of

self deprecatory humour in them. Any humour does not

diminish the heartfelt truth in them. <u>If the truth

is unpalatable it is not the teasing that makes it so.</u>

 

______

 

valaya: My position is absolutely clear: when Krsna's `playfulness`

brings pain and tears to Radharani and Her girlfriends,

including His abandoning them to leave Vrndavana, my sympathies lie ONLY with them; while my anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. focus ENTIRELY on HIM. I am not at all interested in hearing any philosophical or shastric explanation that these are just `playful pastimes`. For those that are involved, they are very serious indeed. At least that's my reality.

 

talasiga: This may be a gutsy focus for some

gestalt therapy session.

Emotional integration need never be an

impediment to spiritual living

______

 

valaya: Maybe when I become more purified, I will

see things in a wholly different perspective. For now,

I take this as deadly serious and my entire

emotional self is firmly committed at the expense of everything

else, including close relationships with other human

beings (family, friends, romance, etc.).

 

talasiga: This tends to CONTRADICT your

proclaimed striving to establish a

closer personal connection with me.....

So, need we continue further with this ?

 

 

Your unphony correspondent

Talasiga

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Maitreya]

Dear FaithfullDevotee,

 

Just a suggestion here.Forget most of this thread.There was some positive replies but the static may be hard to hear over.

 

You question on the reason for trying to reach the heavenly planets is a very good one.

 

Here is the suggestion.Take it to the letters to the editor thread and pose it to JNdas.Others here could also give a nice answer but that letters thread is static free.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

[dasanudas]

valaya: I sense that you may appreciate the

value of painful separation in love which enables each

one of us to individually relate emotionally

with Srimati Radharani.

 

talasiga: I have no choice.

 

Hilarious realism

Not that I have one drop--- but too many tears coming.

 

Talasiga, thanks for never answering where you are at. What then, if I never get a chance to share your company?

Providence can be so cruel

if not seen as our friend.

[stonehearted]

Dear Faithful Sanjay,

 

I want to echo Maitreya's advice. Pay attention to the signal, not the noise. If some misunderstanding came up between valaya and talasiga, I think it would have been better to take their discussion private or to another thread.

 

Don't let our occasional silliness discourage you.

 

Babhru das

[talasiga]

Originally posted by stonehearted:

Don't let our occasional silliness discourage you.

 

Silliness is the ART

which frustrates impostors

and amuses the wise

 

.

.

.

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 09-29-2001).]

[talasiga]

Dear Friends and Maitreya

 

From his very first posting we know that

"Faithless Devotee" already

 

1. chants "Hare Krsna" but his "heart still hasn't been captured" (cf. with verse 2 of Shikshaashtak of Lord Chaitanya).

 

2. knows that having the same degree of faith and belief as some may purport to have "would just be a miracle".

 

3. discerns so many perplexities "that get in the way of the philosophies validity".

 

4. queries that the conception of a "higher consciousness may just be some sort of secondary maya keeping us from another truth of some inconceivable nature".

 

5. is gracious enough to wish all well on their spiritual paths.

 

So ..............

what more can we teach him ?

 

 

.

.

.

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 09-29-2001).]