Complaints cont...

[shvu]

 

ggohil,

 

I do not thing anyone has to accept what one reads in the vedas without questioning it.

Fine. How does one question Brahman, Karma and creation?

 

Apparently, the vedic literature does not make sense to Shvu, so he has universally proclaimed it, for all mankind, to be beyond questioning, thinking and understanding.

I will save my comments for now.

 

I have asked questions and reasoned with the vedic literature. The literature has started making sense to me.

With due respect, I say, you (and most people here) have no idea what vedic literature is. Let me call your bluff, anyway. What vedic literature have you studied so far? FYI, Iskcon books, BG, Bhagavatam, etc are not vedic by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Secondly, unless Shvu, is sitting in all the devotees hearts, he really does not know whether the devotees have accepted the literature without asking questions or whether the vedas makes sense to the devotees

See above. Anyway, why bring in the Vedas here, I wonder ?

 

Cheers

 

 

[shvu]

 

Audarya Lila,

 

Shvu - I would have expected a little better from you.

I wonder why. You very well know , this is my position.

 

You know this is completely false and foolish and is also completely against the Vedic teachings.

Yawn... Vedic again !

 

Why do you people harp about vedic teachings? FYI, your sampradaya is against the vedas in every way. So much, that there is a website www.gosai.com, where you will find an article titled as "Bhagavatam > vedas". If you remember, the administrator had posted this article here a while back.

 

To point out the obvious and correct your foolish remark, we are to use our intelligence, discrimination, experience and reasoning to their fullest extent in pursuit of truth.

Sorry...this is your own logic. The position of shastra itself is to provide information which cannot be known thru intellect and reasoning (*). But how can I expect a gaudiya to know these basics? Everything that does not suit your thinking is to be dismissed as "foolish".

 

This is acknowledged in all scriputure and any bona fide teacher will instruct his/her students properly in this regard.

yawn...

 

[Deleted a lot of poetic material. Nice, but irrelevant]

 

That you have not tasted anything doesn't mean that others haven't.

And the point is...?

 

Cheers

 

* Talasiga, if you are planning to do what I think you will do, please don't...because we have already done it twice. Thanks in advance.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Audarya lila]

Shvu,

 

Many refer to the Bagavad-gita as Gitopanisad due to it's Upanishadic nature as well as it's being spoken directly by the Supreme Lord. Srimad Bhagavatam is the natural commentary on Vedanta Sutra. The puranas and itihasas are mentioned in the Vedic texts themselves to be the 'fith Veda'.

That you don't consider them to be Vedic doesn't make it so. Many others do consider them to be Vedic. To mention a few I will cite Jiva Goswami, Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur and Baladeva Vidyabhusana - all great scholars in their own right and certainly vastly more learned than you or I in the Vedic literatures. If you get the chance some time you shoud read Jiva Goswami's Tattva-sandarbha wherein he shows the importance of the Puranas in terms of Vedic revelation and in particular he highlights the Srimad Bhagavatam as the samadhi-bhasya of Vyasadeva.

 

BTW, I wasn't infuriated by your remarks. I simply find them to be foolish inflamatory remarks. Certainly not what I would expect from one who has chosen to use his intellect, discrimination and powers of reasoning in pursuit of knowledge.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Audarya lila]

No Shvu, everything that doesn't suit my own thinking isn't to be dismissed as foolish - I think that this description suits yourself much better.

 

What I dismiss as foolish is the comment that all devotees on these forums accept everything in toto without using the tools of reasoning, and their God given intelligence. We are required to use our intelligence even to carry on this useless conversation. You have been visiting this forum for some time and still you haven't even caught on to the very basic phenomena of dialog that goes on. But then again, what can I expect from an athiest - just thought I'd jab you back - not usually my cup of tea though. My point here is that if you would open your eyes a little you would see there there is much disagreement over all sorts of issues relating to scripture and it's application. These forums provide a useful outlet for discussing these issues. If everyone did as you say they do, there would be no discussion to have. Everyone simply accept everything that is written as you find it without question. Do you by any chance now see and admit to the foolishness of your statement?

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[shvu]

 

Many refer to the Bagavad-gita as Gitopanisad due to it's Upanishadic nature as well as it's being spoken directly by the Supreme Lord.

 

The Sri Vaishnavas claim that the pancharatra comes directly from Narayana. This does not mean that they call it vedic. As far as upanishads are concerned, anyone can call anything as an upanishad. Bhakti vinod thakur wrote his own upanishad and claimed it was part of the Atharvana Veda. You will be surprised to know, there are people who actually believe such claims.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam is the natural commentary on Vedanta Sutra.

Please. All this has been dealt with at length in the past, and I don't want to go into it again. If it was a "natural" commentary, Vyasa would not have told Madhva to write a new one, don't you think? Why did Baladeva write a new commentary?

 

Where is shunyavAda, sAnkya, etc refuted in the Bhagavatam? You have been misled by typical gaudiya propoganda.

 

The puranas and itihasas are mentioned in the Vedic texts themselves to be the 'fith Veda'.

The reference to itihasa and purana as panchama veda in the chAndogya does not mean that they form a fifth veda. panchama veda is a term used to state the importance of certain literature and is alsoe use for arcery [dhanur veda], medicine ayurveda, etc.

 

That you don't consider them to be Vedic doesn't make it so.

With due repsect, it is not "my opinion". Also remember, a bunch of people from west bengal who didn't have basic traditional training in shAstra, making tall claims about their own literature means nothing.

 

To mention a few I will cite Jiva Goswami, Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur and Baladeva Vidyabhusana - all great scholars in their own right and certainly vastly more learned than you or I in the Vedic literatures.

I am aware of the extent of scholarship of the Gaudiya crowd, thank you.

 

If you get the chance some time you shoud read Jiva Goswami's Tattva-sandarbha wherein he shows the importance of the Puranas in terms of Vedic revelation and in particular he highlights the Srimad Bhagavatam as the samadhi-bhasya of Vyasadeva.

See above.

 

BTW, I wasn't infuriated by your remarks. I simply find them to be foolish inflamatory remarks.

 

Sure, you will. I explained this one too.

 

Certainly not what I would expect from one who has chosen to use his intellect, discrimination and powers of reasoning in pursuit of knowledge.

How would you know? Surely you don't think, everone will end up with the same conclusions as you have?

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

No Shvu, everything that doesn't suit my own thinking isn't to be dismissed as foolish - I think that this description suits yourself much better.

I am sorry Audarya, if you do a search for the word "foolish" in your postings and mine, you will know what I am talking about.

 

What I dismiss as foolish is the comment that all devotees on these forums accept everything in toto without using the tools of reasoning, and their God given intelligence.

Not what I said, at all.

 

We are required to use our intelligence even to carry on this useless conversation. You have been visiting this forum for some time and still you haven't even caught on to the very basic phenomena of dialog that goes on. But then again, what can I expect from an athiest - just thought I'd jab you back - not usually my cup of tea though.

?

 

My point here is that if you would open your eyes a little you would see there there is much disagreement over all sorts of issues relating to scripture and it's application. These forums provide a useful outlet for discussing these issues. If everyone did as you say they do, there would be no discussion to have.

 

Let us take an example. A couple of weeks back, you got into a tiff with another camp about the authenticity of a certain maharaj. The argument ran into pages, with each camp calling the other as "foolish", until everone ran out of breath. What kind of discussion was that, may I ask?

 

FYI, I don't remember you discussing scriptures at any time. So I wonder what you are talking about, anyway?

 

Everyone simply accept everything that is written as you find it without question. Do you by any chance now see and admit to the foolishness of your statement?

The Maharaj example should work here. btw did you read my second posting on that thread? I see you did noy comment on it. Perhaps that will show you, my statement is far from foolish...if you care to keep your mind a little open, that is.

 

Cheers

 

[ggohil]

Shvu

 

Quote

------------------------------

Fine. How does one question Brahman, Karma and creation?

- ----------------------------

Just like one would question any thing else.

 

Quote

-------------------------------

I will save my comments for now.

-- ------------------------

Fine

Quote

--------------------------------

With due respect, I say, you (and most people here) have no idea what vedic literature is.

Let me call your bluff, anyway. What vedic literature have you studied so far? FYI, Iskcon

books, BG, Bhagavatam, etc are not vedic by any stretch of the imagination.

---------------------------

 

I am studying Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam. These are the books I am referring to and they have started to make sense to me.

 

Quote

------------------------------

See above. Anyway, why bring in the Vedas here, I wonder ?

-------------------------------

 

Don’t know what you mean.

[Audarya lila]

Shvu,

 

Your speculation as to the need or lack thereof for the commentary of Madvacharya shows the dilemna that you place yourself in by thinking that you can approach divinity and understand it through you tiny intellect. I won't go into the details as to the need for the commentary written by Baladeva since it has been dealt with exhaustively previously.

 

Your derogatory remark regarding our Gaudiya Acharyas is false and unecessary. After stating that they are a bunch of Bengalis who had no formal training you go on to say that you are well aware of their scholarship. Truth is - you seem to relish argument more than you do actually finding out the truth of a thing. Try reading Caitanya Charitamrta sometime. You will find that the Gaudiya Acharyas were very well schooled in the traditional manner.

 

I suggested you read Tattva-sandarba and you inferred that you have. I doubt that very much from your comments. I will post some of the scriputural evidence that Jiva Goswami uses to support his thesis with regard to the Superior position of the Bhagavatam when I get a chance and find the book. I have just moved and most of my belongings are currently in boxes.

 

All of the above aside I will tell you that I have no interest in jousting with you or engaging in the type of dry argumentation that you seem to relish. I simply pointed out to you that you made a foolish and poorly reasoned remark. You seem to be too proud to admit it. So be it.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

P.S. try chanting Hare Krsna you may find that this simple practice will lead you to understanding things that you previously had no access to. Krsna is all merciful, he can do anything and he can enlighten anyone.

[Audarya lila]

Here is exactly what you said to refresh your memory:

 

Shvu said:

Accept everything that has been told to you, in toto, without questioning/thinking/reasoning it out. And bingo ! you will be where these devotees are, for this is how they got there.

 

I have already pointed out how foolish this statement is and given you a very simple example that even a child would understand. Are you really so arrogant that you can't admit to the ignorance of your statement?

 

You misunderstood the discussions that were going on several weeks ago that you referred to. The discussion was centered around adjustment of the teaching according to time, place and circumstance. I took exception to slanderous remarks regarding my spiritual master and I quoted scripture to show why this was improper Vaishnava behavior. The Vedic teachings are not static, they are dynamic and require realized souls to present such that they are relevant to the times within which we live.

 

Anyway Shvu - God bless you and Hare Krsna. NO more time or inclination to debate with you.

 

BTW, I did look at your secondary post and it was really quite good but still missed the mark - it did however clarify where you are coming from and when taken with your first it certainly makes it less foolish, yet foolish it remains.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[shvu]

 

Anyway Shvu - God bless you and Hare Krsna. NO more time or inclination to debate with you.

You took the worlds right out of my mouth.

God bless you too.

 

All glories to Gauranga

All glories to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada

hare krishna

haribhol

your servant

 

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by shvu:

You took the worlds right out of my mouth.

God bless you too.

 

All glories to Gauranga

All glories to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada

hare krishna

haribhol

your servant

Hey Shvu, Dandavats

This is one of the nicest posts I've seen you give us here at Audaryya Fellowship. A pure gem. And I sincerely offer my pransms to such eloquent sentiments.

Your servant too,

Das

 

[animesh]

jndas ji,

Was there some problem with the server a little while back? Or, was only I not able to connect?

[Arvindaksh das]

Shri Shri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah !!!!

 

Dear Shvu prabhu,

 

Whether it be the Vedas or the Shrimad Bhagvatam, anybody who ventures to read them (leave alone understand), needs one quality the most HUMILITY.

 

How about these words ....

A person should be clear in his mind as to what is his position in this creation (even from the modern science's point of view). Position of most of the common individuals (who do not impact the history of Earth) is like a speck of dust on the Earth! Earth is a speck of dust in the Milkyway! Milkyway is a speck of dust in the Universe! Our scriptures tell us that our Universe is a speck of dust in the infinite Universes! Then what for our material / knowledge ego!!! Then what for our material greed, arrogance, lust, anger, lack of compassion, envy, mistrust, the desire to posses that which belongs to another and other evils. Please think..........

 

[Guest guest]

Arvindaksh: Whether it be the Vedas or the Shrimad Bhagvatam, anybody who ventures to read them (leave alone understand), needs one quality the most HUMILITY.

 

Satyaraj: By your statement it is clear that you never read any Veda. According to sruti text to read Veda one should not be a sudra. He might have some qualification and humility is not mentioned as such qualification, but as a condition caused by self-realization that is a consequence which one may or may not have after reading Vedas.

 

Regarding to read Bhagavata Purana and other smrti and Itihasas no qualification is needed, as those texts clearly state that even sudras and other low-born people are fit to read them. For certain no humility is demanded from that kind of people.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

You flip flopped yet again. Not very interesting. First decide what philosophy it is you follow, then try to convince others about it.

 

By your statement it is clear that you never read any Veda. According to sruti text to read Veda one should not be a sudra.

And out of curiosity, which caste is it that you identify with? By what sanction would people from Brazil study the shruti?

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Jndas: And out of curiosity, which caste is it that you identify with? By what sanction would people from Brazil study the shruti?

 

Satyaraj: What a unfaithful one you are Jndas! Don’t you believe that Gaudiya-gurus can give brahmanhood to everyone? Even to Brazilians? As I had got two brahminical initiations from these Gaudiya-gurus now I am a Brahmin, and for certain I am mastered in all srutis as you may witness by yourself!

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Jndas: And out of curiosity, which caste is it that you identify with? By what sanction would people from Brazil study the shruti?

 

Satyaraj: What a unfaithful one you are Jndas! Don’t you believe that Gaudiya-gurus can give brahmanhood to everyone? Even to Brazilians? As I had got two brahminical initiations from these Gaudiya-gurus now I am a Brahmin, and for certain I am mastered in all srutis as you may witness by yourself!

Perhaps if you'd listened to Srila Narayan Maharaja when he suggested you curtail your reading, Satyaraja dasa...now it appears to be a case of, "Physician heal thyself!"

 

Acceptance of Sri Guru means much more than initiation, at least in the narrow sense that you seem to understand it. Don't blame others for your inability to take the medicine as prescribed.

 

Many here are more than willing to help in any way they can, but without the proper attitude on your part, they ultimately become frustrated and alienated. I'm truly sorry, prabhu, that I can't do more personally.

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-27-2001).]

[valaya]

Originally posted by Arvindaksh das:

Shri Shri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah !!!!

 

Dear Shvu prabhu,

 

Whether it be the Vedas or the Shrimad Bhagvatam, anybody who ventures to read them (leave alone understand), needs one quality the most HUMILITY.

 

How about these words ....

A person should be clear in his mind as to what is his position in this creation (even from the modern science's point of view). Position of most of the common individuals (who do not impact the history of Earth) is like a speck of dust on the Earth! Earth is a speck of dust in the Milkyway! Milkyway is a speck of dust in the Universe! Our scriptures tell us that our Universe is a speck of dust in the infinite Universes! Then what for our material / knowledge ego!!! Then what for our material greed, arrogance, lust, anger, lack of compassion, envy, mistrust, the desire to posses that which belongs to another and other evils. Please think..........

Thanks for the gentle reminder, prabhu. Nice to hear from you personally! `From dust to dust...`

 

 

[Guest guest]

Valaya: Many here are more than willing to help in any way they can, but without the proper attitude on your part, they ultimately become frustrated and alienated.

 

Satyaraj: What a show of modesty! Or it may be hypocrisy? Are you a mukta Valayaji? Did you have attained Hari? For certain you did not, as well as many of these so-called gurus. Action is better than precepts, so first find a help to yourself and after your own self-realization you may help someone else.

 

BTW Narayan Maharaja has never suggested me curtail my reading, on contrary. Everyone knows that acceptance of Guru means much more than initiation, but this is Hari’s concern, not ours. Do you really think that you can find a guru by your own account?

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Valaya: Krsna (Hari) has taken everything away from Valaya and left him wretched, forlorn and alone in this world. However, Valaya has been blessed by Srimati Radharani Herself for which he can only be humbly grateful.

 

Satyaraj: Oh, really!? He did not take your liquor’s bottles, did He? Find yourself a place in Hari’s lila here and maybe you will get a place in His lilas hereafter. False renunciation is very common up here. At least be sincere: Did Hari has taken you everything or you have falsely disdained this world?

You, or anyone else for that matter, is welcome to visit and see for yourself who I am and what my so-called `life` is about. There's an older brazilian devotee here that I've known for a few years, Kuladeva das. Perhaps you would like to speak with him or both of us by phone.

 

Maybe I could just send pictures, doctors' reports, family letters, etc. You could also call Bhaktimarga Swami at ISKCON Toronto, as he has known me since 1971 when we lived together in the temple as brahmacaris. That's the best I can offer for now, prabhu. Sorry again...RR

 

 

[Arvindaksh das]

Originally posted by shvu:

What about these words? I did think about them for a while though, as you suggested.

 

Cheers

Shri Shri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah !!!

 

How about these words ....

A person should be clear in his mind as to what is his position in this creation (even from the modern science's point of view). Position of most of the common individuals (who do not impact the history of Earth) is like a speck of dust on the Earth! Earth is a speck of dust in the Milkyway! Milkyway is a speck of dust in the Universe! Our scriptures tell us that our Universe is a speck of dust in the infinite Universes! Then what for our material / knowledge ego!!! Then what for our material greed, arrogance, lust, anger, lack of compassion, envy, mistrust, the desire to posses that which belongs to another and other evils. Please think..........

 

Lets think and think on these lines and then Humility will seep in our hearts and so will Compassion and Love and so will Appreciation for others and so will all the good qualities desired by all of us.

 

Your thoughts Satyaraja Prabhu

 

 

[Arvindaksh das]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Arvindaksh: Whether it be the Vedas or the Shrimad Bhagvatam, anybody who ventures to read them (leave alone understand), needs one quality the most HUMILITY.

 

Satyaraj: By your statement it is clear that you never read any Veda. According to sruti text to read Veda one should not be a sudra. He might have some qualification and humility is not mentioned as such qualification

Shri Shri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah !!!

 

Dear Satyaraja Prabhu,

 

I have been educated in India. The very first lesson taught to a young child (6 year old) is Vidya dadati vinayam ....

This means when one gets little vidya or sublime knowledge he will get automatically in his heart vinayam or humility . You will agree vidya is definitely needed,even to read Sanskrit leave alone venture into Vedas. Therefore one who claims to have vidya and does not have vinayam in his actions is definitely over-claiming.

 

Your thoughts ....

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

What a unfaithful one you are Jndas! Don’t you believe that Gaudiya-gurus can give brahmanhood to everyone? Even to Brazilians?

Perhaps there is a problem in the english I used. I had asked you:

 

And out of curiosity, which caste is it that you identify with? By what sanction would people from Brazil study the shruti?

That's a simple question. Which caste do you identify with, and how do you justify your studying shruti? It has nothing to do with my faith or not. It is a question directed towards yourself and your faith. You have rejected the process of sadhana and initiation given by your gaudiya guru. Keeping that in mind, how do you justify your study of shruti? If your gayatri-diksha is invalid and bogus, then you are an equally bogus brahmana, making you an outcaste to the varnas. How do you justify yourself studying the shruti, which you say may not be studied by shudras?

 

Simple question I think.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 09-27-2001).]

[valaya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Valaya: Many here are more than willing to help in any way they can, but without the proper attitude on your part, they ultimately become frustrated and alienated.

 

Satyaraj: What a show of modesty! Or it may be hypocrisy? Are you a mukta Valayaji? Did you have attained Hari? For certain you did not, as well as many of these so-called gurus. Action is better than precepts, so first find a help to yourself and after your own self-realization you may help someone else.

 

BTW Narayan Maharaja has never suggested me curtail my reading, on contrary. Everyone knows that acceptance of Guru means much more than initiation, but this is Hari’s concern, not ours. Do you really think that you can find a guru by your own account?

 

Valaya is certainly a `muckta`, though hardly a hypocrite. Valaya has obtained the `special causeless mercy` of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada personally.

 

Krsna (Hari) has taken everything away from Valaya and left him wretched, forlorn and alone in this world. However, Valaya has been blessed by Srimati Radharani Herself for which he can only be humbly grateful.

 

Again Satyaraja, I'm sorry to find myself unable to share all of the above with you. Maybe next lifetime, eh prabhu?

 

valaya RR

 

 

[shvu]

 

Dear Shvu prabhu,

 

Whether it be the Vedas or the Shrimad Bhagvatam, anybody who ventures to read them (leave alone understand), needs one quality the most HUMILITY.

Dear Aravindaksh das prabhu,

 

What is the point that your are trying to drive across? Forgive me, for not understanding your point. Since valaya aappreciates your message, perhaps he can explain.

 

Thanks

 

How about these words ....

A person should be clear in his mind as to what is his position in this creation (even from the modern science's point of view). Position of most of the common individuals (who do not impact the history of Earth) is like a speck of dust on the Earth! Earth is a speck of dust in the Milkyway! Milkyway is a speck of dust in the Universe! Our scriptures tell us that our Universe is a speck of dust in the infinite Universes! Then what for our material / knowledge ego!!! Then what for our material greed, arrogance, lust, anger, lack of compassion, envy, mistrust, the desire to posses that which belongs to another and other evils. Please think..........

What about these words? I did think about them for a while though, as you suggested.

 

Cheers