Sri Chaitanya in the Bhavishya Purana

[Audarya lila]

krsna varnam tvisa krsnam

sangopangastra parsadam

yajnaih sankirtanam-prayair

yajanti hi sumedhasah

 

 

"In the age of Kali, Krsna appears in a golden form, chanting the two syllables krs-na. He descends along with His weapons, saktis, limbs, and eternal confidential associates. Those with intelligence worship Him with the sankirtana yajna. (1) (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.32)

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Here is a nice segment of a Sanga posting that is relevant to this discussion:

 

Q. And study scripture?

 

A. Yes, study the scripture. But for what? For doing bhajan, not for collecting information to prove a point, to beat somebody over the head with it. Such argumentation is not helpful at all for bhakti. It is pratikula, unfavorable. So study sastra for bhajan. Let it speak to us of what we need to do now, today, to make progress in Krsnas service. This is what I mean by an open heart. Study sastra in that way, and practice.

 

Q. And preaching?

 

A. What comes to you, if you feel it is worth sharing, then share it. If someone asks you a question, you answer honestly what you have understood. And if people are attracted to that, then this is preaching.

 

You don't have to study for preaching, planning what to say, finding a verse to defeat others, thinking, 'they're all demons, they have all rejected the right way, they are this or that,' according to whatever ism or schism we are part of.

 

Find a verse that changes your heart. When your heart changes, preaching will overflow, automatically. That kind of preaching will be compelling and it will draw people in and it will draw down the mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu as well.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[shvu]

 

krsna varnam tvisa krsnam

sangopangastra parsadam

yajnaih sankirtanam-prayair

yajanti hi sumedhasah

 

"In the age of Kali, Krsna appears in a golden form, chanting the two syllables krs-na. He descends along with His weapons, saktis, limbs, and eternal confidential associates. Those with intelligence worship Him with the sankirtana yajna. (1) (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.32)

This verse was discussed on this forum in the past. "appears in a golden form" and "descends alongwith" are both not present in the verse. It says "krsna varnam" which means dark colored.

 

The chapter is about how the supreme person is worshipped in different Yugas. This verse says how the Supreme will be worshipped in the Kali-yuga. It describes the form in which he will be worshipped and the method [chanting, etc] of worship.

 

I just thought it was important, I point this out again, as it is relevant to this thread.

 

Cheers

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by jijaji:

JIJAJI:

talasiga says "why the need to establish his divinity"

That sounds like an outsiders question? I don't get it....?

 

 

The whole sentence was:

"One wonders why the need to establish Mahaprabhu's divinity or to decline it."

 

This TURNS on the ISSUE of the RELEVANCE of his divinity or

lack of divinity to our spiritual life given that:-

 

"......one may note that nowhere in His Sheekshaashtakam

does Mahaprabhu state that recognising his divinity

is a requisite for sucessfully chanting the Holy Name

or generally embracing the devotional path.

(Nor does He state that ascertaining any lack of his divinity

is a requisite either)."

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Audarya lila]

And here is the Gaudiya analysis of that verse and the other surrounding verses - From Golden Volcano:

 

The Golden Avatar

 

In the teachings of Karabhajana Rsi we find mention of the different incarnations for different ages (yugavataras). In Dvapara-yuga, the yugavatara is mentioned as follows:

 

dvapare bhagavan syamah

pita-vasa nijayudhah

srivatsadibhir ankais ca

laksanair upalaksitah

 

 

In Dvapara-yuga, Lord Krsna appears with the color of a dark rain cloud, wearing lightning-colored garments. He is decorated with beautiful ornaments. His chest bears the mark of Srivatsa, and He carries His own weapons.

 

After the description of the yugavatara of Dvapara-yuga, Karabhajana Rsi mentions the kali-yugavatara:

 

iti dvapara urv-isa

stuvanti jagad-isvaram

nana-tantra-vidhanena

kalav api tatha srnu

 

He says, "0 King, up to Dvapara-yuga, I have finished describing the incarnations for different ages who come to remind the people of the most appropriate duty for their age. They come and tell us, 'If you do this, you will get the greatest benefit.' O King, after the Dvapara age is finished, the age of Kali comes. The incarnation for the age of Kali has been mentioned in many places in the scriptures, and now I am just going to explain that information to you." (S.B. 11.5.31)

 

Then he says:

 

krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam

sangopangastra parsadam

yajnaih sankirtana prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

In a suppressed way, this verse explains the advent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The ordinary meaning of krsna-varnam is "of a black color." But tvisakrsnam means "His luster is not black." Accompanied by His associates, He is worshiped by the process of sankirtana, the chanting of the holy name of Krsna, and those of sharp intellect will perform this kind of worship.

 

Golden Gift of the Golden Lord

 

Jiva Goswami explains the meaning of this verse in his own parallel verse:

 

antah krsnam bahir gauram

darsitangadi-vaibhavam

kalau ankirtanadyai sma

krsna-caitanyam asritah

 

"I take shelter of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is outwardly of a golden complexion, but is inwardly Krsna Himself. In this age of Kali, He displays His expansions while performing congregational chanting of the holy name of Krsna. That He is blackish within means that internally He is Krsna; that He is golden without means that He has accepted the mood of Srimati Radharani. In the age of Kali, that Golden Lord is seen accompanied by His expansions, associates, and intimate devotees performing sankirtana."

 

Someone may argue that the meaning of krsna-varnam is that His color is black and His luster is also black. But how is this possible? That would be redundant. The conjunction between the words tvisa and akrsnam mean that His color is krsna, black, but His luster is akrsna: not black. Then, someone might say, "Not black does not necessarily mean golden. Why should it mean golden?" The answer is found in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

Once, Vasudeva sent the astrologer-priest Garga Rsi to Vrndavana to perform the name-giving ceremony for Krsna. At that time, Garga Rsi came to the house of Nanda Maharaja and explained that Vasudeva had sent him. He said, "Your child is now a little grown up and the name-giving ceremony must be performed." At that time, he spoke the following verse:

 

asan vamas trayo hy asya

grhnato 'nuyugam tanuh

suklo raktas tatha pita

idanim krsnatam gatah

 

 

In past incarnations, this boy has appeared with different complexions: white, red, and gold, according to the particular age in which He appeared. Now He has assumed this blackish color."

 

He said, "Krsna comes in a white color in Satya-yuga, red in Treta-yuga, and He also comes with a golden complexion. Now in this Dvapara-yuga He has come in a black color." So the reference to the golden color (pita) is found here, because only that color has been left for this present age of Kali. There is another reference to this golden color in the Upanisads: yada pasya pasyate rukma varnam: "Krsna, the Supreme Brahman, appears in a golden form." Rukma varnam means golden. And here also, non-black means golden.

 

Krsna wanted to come as the incarnation for this age of Kali, as well as to fulfill His promise in Vrndavana: "I shall chant the glory of the gopis, especially of Radharani. I shall chant Her name. Her glory, and roll in the dust of the earth!" But Radharani said, "\ won't allow Your body to roll in the dust of this earth. I shall cover You with My luster." Both the mood as well as the luster of Radharani capture Krsna when He comes here in Kali-yuga. And this does not occur in all Kali-yugas, but only in a special Kali-yuga.

 

In all the days of Brahma, in every yuga, the yugavatara comes, but Krsna appears only once in a day of Brahma, or once every 4.3 billion years. At that time, the Original Personality of Godhead (svayam bhagavan) appears along with His abodes, Vrndavana and Navadwipa. And Krsna and Mahaprabhu do not come here alone, but They come with Their paraphernalia and suitable companions.

 

Sweetness Tasting Itself

 

And in this age of Kali, He performs a double function: He preaches nama-sankirtana, and more important. He assumes the mood of Radharani to taste His own sweetness, rasa. He is rasa Himself. Krsna thinks, "What is the intensity of the finest rasa in Me? I would like to taste that." But only devotees can taste that, so He took the position of Radharani to taste Himself as Krsna, the central final and perfect abode of rasa. Only Radharani can taste the maximum rasa, so He has to take Her nature, Her mood and temperament to taste His own intrinsic ecstasy. For that reason He descended. His first duty was to spread nama-sankirtana, and the secondary, internal, private duty was to perform bhajana-vibhajan, to taste His own intrinsic ecstasy in the mood of Radharani. In Puri, with Ramananda Raya, Svarupa Damodara, and other intimate associates. He tasted that great ocean of union in separation continuously for twelve years. In His last twelve years. He passed His time only in the process of tasting that mellow.

 

That incarnation is generally worshiped by sankirtana. Without sankirtana, Gauranga and His paraphernalia cannot be worshiped. He is the propounder of sankirtana, He loves sankirtana, and He gets satisfaction only by sankirtana. Only those who have sufficient merit (sukrti-van), will worship Him by this process. The common mob cannot join this campaign. Those who have good guidance internally, good fortune, can catch the very gist of truth and engage in this process of nama-sankirtana.

 

Love is Supreme

 

A rubbish-brain cannot detect what is right or wrong, or how precious this is. He cannot understand or follow this higher line of thought. A man should be judged by his ideal, his aspiration for higher things. If the ideal is great, the man is great. What should be the highest ideal? Love. Love is the supreme thing. It is the most rare and precious thing. Divine love and beauty is the highest thing ever known to the world, and those who can catch this are really possessed of good intellect (su-medhasah). And one who possesses this highest ideal should be considered to be a man of higher order. He alone can understand and practice sankirtana. He alone can take to this path, this process of satisfying the Supreme Being by chanting the holy name of the Lord.

 

 

The Hidden Incarnation

 

This is mentioned in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, as well as in the Mahdbharata and other Vedic scriptures. Karabha-jana Rsi, the last of the nine great yogis, has given us a clue to understand Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the special incarnation for the age. He has mentioned the incarnation for this age of Kali in a mystic way. We may think, why has this not been described very plainly? So many avatdras are clearly described, but when Srimad-Bhagavatam describes Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the incarnation for the age of Kali, it is discussed in a mystic way. The answer is found in the teachings of Prahlada Maharaja, who says, "0 Lord, one of Your names is Triyuga, meaning one who incarnates in three ages—Satya, Treta, and Dvapara—but not in Kali. And why? Because the incarnation for the age of Kali is in disguise (channah kalau yad abhavas tri-yugo 'tha sa tvam)."

 

Here we find the key to this mystic way of representing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to the fortunate and intelligent circle (su-med-hasah), that ordinary people may not have any clue.

 

dhyeyam sada paribhava-ghnam abhista-doham

tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam

bhrtyarti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam

vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

 

"0 Mahaprabhu, Your lotus feet are the highest object of meditation, for they not only destroy the pain of material existence, but they bestow the greatest fulfillment to all souls who take shelter beneath them. Your lotus feet even purify all saintly persons and holy places. Lord Siva and Lord Brahma aspire to take shelter beneath Your lotus feet. 0 Mahaprabhu, You give shelter to all who simply bow down before You. You relieve all the miseries of Your surrendered servants. In the grand ship of Your lotus feet, we can cross over this ocean of material miseries. 0 Mahaprabhu, I bow down before Your lotus feet."

 

After mentioning the incarnation of Godhead for the age of Kali, Srimad-Bhdgavatam suddenly begins this song in praise of that great yugavatara, Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. With a grand voice the Bhagavatam has come to sing the praise of that guide for Kali-yuga. This follows the verse which hints at the avatara of Kali-yuga. Krsna-varnam means one who is always describing Krsna, who always has on his lips the words "Krsna, Krsna, Krsna." Another meaning of this expression is "One who is Krsna Himself, but whose luster is not black." If we look deeply, we shall find that hidden beneath His golden luster is the blackish body of Krsna. With His own paraphernalia He has come to this plane, and service to Him is performed only by sankirtana, divine sound in mass prayer. By that symptom we can recognize His divine position.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a hidden incarnation; He comes in disguise. Such an avatara is worshiped by the divinely intellectual. In this way, the Srimad-Bhagavatam first describes that uncommon, extraordinary personality, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in a mystic way and then proclaims His nobility and His greatness.

 

The Srimad-Bhagavatam explains, "That same personality who came as Ramacandra and Krsna has again appeared. He has come to direct you to the real fulfillment of life. He is drawing the sweetest nectar from above for the sake of everyone. Only meditate on Him and all your troubles will be finished. He is the agent purifying all the holy places of pilgrimage and great saintly persons by His touch, by His sankirtana, by His drawing the highest things down from the highest plane. And even Brahma and Siva, puzzled by His noble gift, will begin to praise Him. They will eagerly aspire to take shelter under His lotus feet in surrender. The pains of all who come to serve Him will be removed, and their inner necessities will be fulfilled. And He will take care of those who take shelter of Him; they will be given protection as well as everything they may need. In this world where mortality rules, where we are continually experiencing the undesirable changes of repeated birth and dea th, in this area where no one wants to live, a great ship will come for us and take us within and carry us away from this unpleasant position. Let us fall at the feet of that great personality who comes to give the highest nectar." The Srimad-Bhagavatam continues:

 

tyaktvasu-dustyaja-surepsita-rajya-laksmim

dharmistha arya-vacasa yad agad aranyam

maya-mrgam dayitayepsitam anvadhavad

vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

"0 Supreme Lord, You gave up the goddess of fortune and Her great opulence, which is most difficult to abandon, and is sought after even by the gods. In order to perfectly establish the principles of religion. You left for the forest to honor the brahmana's curse. To deliver the sinful souls who chase illusory pleasures. You search after them and award them Your devotional service. At the same rime. You are engaged in search of Yourself, in search for Sri Krsna: reality the beautiful."

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has given his explanation that although it seems that this verse applies to Lord Ramacandra, who left His kingdom and went with Sitadevi to the forest to discharge the duties designed by His father, this also applies to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has drawn out the internal meaning of this verse and applied it in the case of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Tyakva su-dustyaja-surepsita-raj ya-laksmim means He left imperial prosperity which is hard to abandon. Generally we find this in the case ot Lord Ramacandra, but Visvanatha Cakravarh Thakura says that surepsita-rajya-laksmim means the valuable devotional company of Visnupriya-devi. That may not appear to be a materially big thing, but the dedication that Visnupriya has shown in Her heart for Sriman Mahaprabhu is greater than any imperial standard. And He had to leave that behind. Such a standard of sacrifice and service is never found even among the great society of the gods. For the sake of the public welfare He had to ignore the serving, loving attitude of Visnupriya.

 

The Curse of a Brahmana

 

This verse mentions the curse of a brahmana. That brahmana told Sriman Mahaprabhu, "I want to participate in Your nocturnal kirtanas in which You taste krsna-lila, but the doors are closed." When Sriman Mahaprabhu used to perform kirtana and taste the vraja-lila of Krsna, He did so behind closed doors in deep night. But this brahmana thought himself a very qualified, religious person because he lived by only drinking milk and nothing else, so he said, "\ must have entrance into that kirtana. I do not eat anything but milk; why should I not be allowed?" Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "Milk drinking is no qualification for entering into Krsna consciousness." The brdhmana said, "Then I curse You to lose your family life!All right," Mahaprabhu said and accepted the curse. And later He took sannyasa and chased after those who were misguided by Mayadevi in order to save them. At the same time , although He is Krsna, He accepted the mood of Sriman Radharani. For these two reasons. He left His apparently worldly life: He acted for the welfare of the public and, after finishing that work, spent the next twelve years tasting the very inner aspiration of Sriman Radharani and searching after His own inner sweetness. This was what he came to show to the world. In this mystic way, Srimad-Bhagavatam has proclaimed the magnanimous appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

 

 

[jijaji]

From

 

Sri Sri Ramakrishna Kathamritam

 

CHAPTER 8

 

THE MASTER'S BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION AT DAKSHINESWAR

March 11, 1883.

 

MASTER (to the devotees): "Ordinary people do not recognize the advent of an Incarnation of God. He comes in secret. Only a few of His intimate disciples can recognize Him. That Rama was both Brahman Absolute and a perfect Incarnation of God in human form was known only to twelve rishis. The other sages said to Him, 'Rama, we know You only as Dasaratha's son.'

Seemed to fit in here...

 

[shvu]

 

The Bhagavatam speaks of Krsna coming in Kali yuga and always having the Name Krsna on his lips.

I have read and reread the Bhagavatam and have read no such thing. But since you are stating so, can you provide a verse number?

 

Thanx in advance.

 

[Guest guest]

Audarya-lila: Some people will not accept any scripture as 'authority', some will say 'we only accept sruti', some will say 'we accept sruti and smriti'. Whatever. No conclusive truth can be reached in this fashion.

Satyaraj: That is an interesting remark indeed. But one should recall that Gaudiyas like Prabhupada were postulating that avaratas should be mentioned in scriptures before their advent.

 

In fact, Gaudiyas had provide the scriptural evidences. Audarya-lila’s own math has present them as a refutation to Tattva-vadis accusations of their non-existence and has failed, as none of the sruti evidences presented by them were plausible. Some were simply completely out of context, other non-existent, and other from non-acceptable sources such as Caitanya Upanisad that even Gaudiya’s scholars use to strongly decry, and so on.

 

There is no scarcity of books written by Gaudiyas trying to provide these sruti evidences, but always these evidences fail to be plausible.

 

Why to insist in present non-plausible evidences if you are considering sruti’s authority as irrelevant?

Now you are quoting from smrti:

 

krsna varnam tvisa krsnam

sangopangastra parsadam

yajnaih sankirtanam-prayair

yajanti hi sumedhasah

 

"In the age of Kali, Krsna appears in a golden form, chanting the two syllables krs-na. He descends along with His weapons, saktis, limbs, and eternal confidential associates. Those with intelligence worship Him with the sankirtana yajna.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.32)

 

For certain there are other inferences, translations and commentaries on that smrti text. But one should remember that smrtis are but inferences on srutis. They should follow the sruti text and they have no authority at all without this reference. So, where is the sruti text that support this smrti from Bhagavata Purana?

 

There is no possibility to make smrtis on smrtis, that’s to say inferences on inferences, or commentaries on commentaries without the original sruti (idea or form). If one is making such inferences on inferences that is only a very imaginative way to fraud the original idea or form (sruti), and this is not the Vedic process to attain the Ultimate Reality (vada). It may be considered as Tantric.

 

Audarya-lila: Devotees of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accept his divinity based on the testimony of his intimate associates. That is enough. We also accept the fact that the Vedic revelation is not static but rather dynamic and that it is revealed by one who is a realized soul.

 

Satyaraj: I am waiting for Audariya-lila’s help to refresh my memory! We do consider Rupa as Caitanya’s main theologian. Where did Rupa has stated that Caitanya was an avatara? Please quote the book, or the sloka, or even the stanza where Rupa clearly states that Caitanya was an avatara. I cannot recall it!

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

 

Satyaraj: I am waiting for Audariya-lila’s help to refresh my memory! We do consider Rupa as Caitanya’s main theologian. Where did Rupa has stated that Caitanya was an avatara? Please quote the book, or the sloka, or even the stanza where Rupa clearly states that Caitanya was an avatara. I cannot recall it!

I would like to see the quote from Rupa Gosvami as well that states Sri Chaitanya being an Avatar.

 

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-11-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Jijaji: I would like to see the quote from Rupa Gosvami as well that states Sri Chaitanya being an Avatar.

 

Satyaraj: You will have to be patient! Some archeological evidences of Rupa’s quote on Caitanya being an avatara are still hidden! Audarya lila’s party is working in that field in India, and maybe we will have this proof nearby. Perhaps a Rupa's work re-writen by Bhaktivinoda et al...

 

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

You will have to be patient! Some archeological evidences of Rupa’s quote on Caitanya being an avatara are still hidden! Audarya lila’s party is working in that field in India, and maybe we will have this proof nearby. Perhaps a Rupa's work re-writen by Bhaktivinoda et al...

 

Many of the newer sects that sprang up all over in India in the middle ages have sought to have there Saints verified by the Vedas, Vedangas, Puranas etc..

I saw on-line the other day an incrediblely long list of prophecies and quotes from the Vedas etc. about how Guru Nanak will appear in the age of Kali to save the Fallen and give out the true dharma for this age.

 

Likewise in the Tantric scriptures the tantric sadhana is described as being specifically meant for the Kali yuga as men and women of this age are to fallen to follow the path laid out in the Vedic scriptures.

 

In fact the Tantra brings a new gayatri mantra for the Kali-yuga which all can chant..no restrictions of sex or caste. The Vedic gayatri according to Tantra is not meant for this Kali-yug...

 

So my point being..'EVERYONE TOOTS THEIR OWN HORN

 

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Jijaji: Many of the newer sects that sprang up all over in India in the middle ages...

 

Satyaraj: Ramakrishna used to say: “God has made different religions and creeds to suit different aspirants. If there are errors in other religions, that is none of our business. God, to whom the world belongs, takes care of that.”

 

So, I am leaned to follow Ramakrishna’s viewpoint that all religions had the capacity to lead sincere devotees to God, and that instead of wasting time disputing which religion is the one, true religion, we all should devote ourselves to realizing Truth within the framework of our own religion.

 

Caitanya has said in Ramananda-samvada that religion is a preliminary state between avaidic condition and jñana, and it may takes countless lifetimes to be surpassed. In fact religion is only a platform to be surpassed as soon as one attain an upper level.

 

Krsna has expressed this same opinion in Gita 18.66.

 

Regarding Pañcaratrika-vidya and Veda-vidya, one should be aware that Tantra deals mainly on mental platform while Vedanta deals mainly on the level of intelligence, where mind and grief are under control. So, Pañcaratrika-vidya is a good option for Kali-yugans, as intelligence and absence of grief are very rare in this age. But some sages state that Pañcaratrika-vidya is only a preliminary stage for Veda-vidya...

 

 

[valaya]

So, I am leaned to follow Ramakrishna’s viewpoint that all religions had the capacity to lead sincere devotees to God, and that instead of wasting time disputing which religion is the one, true religion, we all should devote ourselves to realizing Truth within the framework of our own religion.

 

The common element appears to be devotion, does it not? Gaudiya vaisnavas worship devotion as superior to the object of devotion. Sri Radha, as the living essence, is seen as both the means and the end.

 

The process is devotional service, but the perfection is oneness with devotion, when any and all activities become service. At that point one's very presence delivers His Divine Grace.

 

Not all pure devotees are acharyas or even gurus as such. Nor are they necessarily preachers...

 

The true vital purpose of religion and religious activities is not the perpetuation of themselves. Institutions may remain, but individuals must somehow transcend...

 

In other words, should our devotion not be to devotion Herself, regardless of whatever outer religious or other forms may be involved? JAI SRI RADHE!

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Valayaji: The common element appears to be devotion, does it not?

 

Satyaraj: According to Caitanya’s opinion on Ramananda-samvada, the common element in religion is kama, or lust! This is a very confidential topic indeed, and even to non-Gaudiyas who are sincere students of this great philosophical dialog do consider that point.

 

Following Caitanya’s reasoning the religious stage of a jiva is to be considered as sa-kama-karma and as nis-kama-karma.

 

In other words, at the first religious stage one is interested in sastra due the perspective offered by sastra of to have more sense gratification (before that stage one is not interested in any sastra). He wants good karma and never bad karma by worshiping the prompter of karma, Hari. Here there is no real devotion, but a kind of business between the worshiper and the object of his worship. One offer something waiting for results; good results in the form of money, sons, cars, wife, long life, and so on. He lives a pious life and avoid sins that are the cause of bad karma and suffering.

 

The nis-kama-karma is the following stage, this stage is that one where jiva is somewhat frustrated with all kind of karmas, both pious and sinful. He could not get any eternal result on the happiness caused by good karma. So, he is also frustrated with his good karma. Now he wants to avoid all kind of karma, and he is advised to offer Hari the result of all his activities instead of to keep the desire for its results. Again, devotion is not placed in that point. One is only trying another path besides karma. In the top of this stage kama is very subtle and may be compared to the one found at Tapoloka or even Satyaloka.

 

Nis-kama-karma leads to jñana. And jñana may or may not leads to devotion. There is no guarantee.

 

According to Caitanya all stages are progressive and may demand many lifetimes to evolve. Harinama-sankirtana may accelerate the process, but all steps should be stepped one by one.

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by valaya:

 

In other words, should our devotion not be to devotion Herself, regardless of whatever outer religious or other forms may be involved? JAI SRI RADHE!

 

valaya RR

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 11-13-2001).]

Well ...a Gaudiya might see it like that, whereas a Catholic may see it very different, a Shaivite as well.

 

 

 

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¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[Audarya lila]

Satyaraja,

 

I appreciate Narasingha Maharaja's efforts but I am not associated in any direct way with his Matha contrary to your assertions. I am affiliated with Audarya Ashrama.

 

Here is a quote to refresh your memory:

 

Namo Maha vadanaya Krsna Prema pradaya te

Krsnaya Krsna Chaitanya Namine Gaura tvishe namah

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[valaya]

Originally posted by jijaji:

Well ...a Gaudiya might see it like that, whereas a Catholic may see it very different, a Shaivite as well.

 

 

 

Anything we focus our attention on we are devoted to, if only momentarily. Purity of devotion has to do with motivation while degree of devotion involves fullness of concentration in any given activity, religious or not.

 

Whatever our external `service` may be, it will become perfected only if we pay some attention to the quality of our inner devotion. Without His Divine Grace in some way, shape or form nothing would be possible. We are never the doer, are we? Unless that simple fact is recognized, there can be no transcendence or realized tangible faith in God (Supreme Controller), let alone His Love, simply because pride gets in the way.

 

Whether one recognizes this Divine Love as Sri Radha is only significant if there is a desire to enter into Goloka Vrindavan. Still our personal relationship remains with His all-pervasive Love, although we may see Her in our parents, romantic interest, or even the family dog... JAI RADHE!

 

valaya RR

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

It is better you consult your sources of info, dear Audarya-lila, as it is well knew by all that Rupa has never written this pranamam to Caitanya. It is said that Rupa has expressed it verbally while greeting Caitanya after a meeting. Rupa has never written this sloka anywhere. Actually this slola is by Krsnadas himself.

 

Try again...

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Satyaraja,

 

Just to refresh your memory regarding your request and my original statement:

 

Audarya-lila: Devotees of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accept his divinity based on the testimony of his intimate associates. That is enough. We also accept the fact that the Vedic revelation is not static but rather dynamic and that it is revealed by one who is a realized soul.

 

Satyaraj: I am waiting for Audariya-lila’s help to refresh my memory! We do consider Rupa as Caitanya’s main theologian. Where did Rupa has stated that Caitanya was an avatara? Please quote the book, or the sloka, or even the stanza where Rupa clearly states that Caitanya was an avatara. I cannot recall it!

 

So I gave you what you asked for. Of course I am familiar with the source of the sloka. Please note your request and acknowledge that I gave you exactly what you requested. That the verse was penned by Krsnadasa Kaviraja doesn't negate it's authenticity in the eyes of Mahaprabhu's devotees. Quite the opposite. Note that I said that devotees of Mahaprabhu accept his divinity based on the testimony of his intimate associates. We accept them all.

 

 

At any rate, I have already told you that I don't appreciate this type of dry academic exchange and I don't feel that it helps develop the heart. I find it to be based mostly on false ego the attempt to 'prove' one's superior learning, ability to read and penetrate the sastra etc. These are not the type of discussions I care to engage in.

 

You were not satisfied by Gaudiya Vaishnavism - fine, that's your choice. I am - that's also fine as it is my choice. No philosophical system is without it's faults. The reason that I am happy with the metanarrative given by the Gaudiya acharyas is that it speaks deeply to me and my own heart and feelings.

 

My own take on spiritual practice and texts in general is that they are there to help those who take advantage of them develop a life, a spiritual life. I read sastra to help me further my bhajan, not to gather information and fool myself that such information gathering and then broadcasting that will be a testiment to my actual spritual achievment.

 

My heart resonates with the message being delivered by the Goswami's in their literature and by the various acharyas who have worked tirelessly to perpetuate and expand upon this great theology of Nama dharma. They have all testified as to the divinity of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in their writings and in their words. I have faith in them and in my own spiritual preceptor. If you do not, that is alright - that's your choice.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

Amen to that, brother!

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

It is better you consult your sources of info, dear Audarya-lila, as it is well knew by all that Rupa has never written this pranamam to Caitanya. It is said that Rupa has expressed it verbally while greeting Caitanya after a meeting. Rupa has never written this sloka anywhere. Actually this slola is by Krsnadas himself.

 

Try again...

 

Your OPINION is different from what the author himself has stated. Krsnadasa kaviraja says that Rupa Goswami expressed this verbally - we will take his testimony over yours any day. You say it is by Krsandasa, he says it is by Rupa Goswami. Do you think you have the spiritual credentials that Krsnadasa Kaviraja has that anyone should take your opinion over what he has directly stated?

 

Try again.....

 

While you're at it you might look a little more closely at Ramananda Samvada which you are so fond of. You will find that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu revealed his identity to him at the end of that famous discourse.

 

My opinion, for whatever that is worth to you, is that you are far too hung up on trying to ascertain the truth with your mind. Truth is beyond the mind. The mind is necessary to get some idea of what to do to experience the truth. But all the sruti and smriti is pointing us all in the direction of practice which takes us beyond the limits of the mind and senses.

 

Rupa Goswami knows full well who Lord Chaitanya is as his eternal associate, as do all of his other nitya-parsadas. Theirs is not a theoretical position, but an experiencial one. We would all do well to listen carefully and humbly to what they have to say. Otherwise we can speculate for lifetimes and theorize all we want, but we will never come to conclusive truth in that way.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

[Audarya lila]

Satyaraja,

 

Just to refresh your memory regarding your request and my original statement:

 

Audarya-lila: Devotees of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accept his divinity based on the testimony of his intimate associates. That is enough. We also accept the fact that the Vedic revelation is not static but rather dynamic and that it is revealed by one who is a realized soul.

 

Satyaraj: I am waiting for Audariya-lila’s help to refresh my memory! We do consider Rupa as Caitanya’s main theologian. Where did Rupa has stated that Caitanya was an avatara? Please quote the book, or the sloka, or even the stanza where Rupa clearly states that Caitanya was an avatara. I cannot recall it!

 

So I gave you what you asked for. Of course I am familiar with the source of the sloka. Please note your request and acknowledge that I gave you exactly what you requested. That the verse was penned by Krsnadasa Kaviraja doesn't negate it's authenticity in the eyes of Mahaprabhu's devotees. Quite the opposite. Note that I said that devotees of Mahaprabhu accept his divinity based on the testimony of his intimate associates. We accept them all.

 

 

At any rate, I have already told you that I don't appreciate this type of dry academic exchange and I don't feel that it helps develop the heart. I find it to be based mostly on false ego the attempt to 'prove' one's superior learning, ability to read and penetrate the sastra etc. These are not the type of discussions I care to engage in.

 

You were not satisfied by Gaudiya Vaishnavism - fine, that's your choice. I am - that's also fine as it is my choice. No philosophical system is without it's faults. The reason that I am happy with the metanarrative given by the Gaudiya acharyas is that it speaks deeply to me and my own heart and feelings.

 

My own take on spiritual practice and texts in general is that they are there to help those who take advantage of them develop a life, a spiritual life. I read sastra to help me further my bhajan, not to gather information and fool myself that such information gathering and then broadcasting that will be a testiment to my actual spritual achievment.

 

My heart resonates with the message being delivered by the Goswami's in their literature and by the various acharyas who have worked tirelessly to perpetuate and expand upon this great theology of Nama dharma. They have all testified as to the divinity of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in their writings and in their words. I have faith in them and in my own spiritual preceptor. If you do not, that is alright - that's your choice.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Audarya lila dasa: They have all testified as to the divinity of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in their writings and in their words. I have faith in them and in my own spiritual preceptor. If you do not, that is alright - that's your choice.

 

Satyaraj: OK, that is a matter of your own faith. As we already had discussed before faith is not the cause of vidya or God-knowledge. Specially if it is only laukika as yours.

 

The point in discussion was raised by Gaudiyas. They pointed out sruti texts to proof Caitanya’s divinity that were non-existent, out of context, non-plausible at all. One of the present Gaudiya-acaryas is even accused on present a self-made Upanisad as a sound proof of Caitanya avatara.

 

Now you are following the footprints of your sect: Rupa did not write this verse. You even known this fact very well. But even so, you want to proof that he had stated it because you have faith in the real author of that verse, who was making a new theology at his time centering Caitanya’s divinity. What a show of belief! Do you imagine that everyone would believe as you do?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Audarya lila: Krsnadasa kaviraja says that Rupa Goswami expressed this verbally - we will take his testimony over yours any day. You say it is by Krsandasa, he says it is by Rupa Goswami.

 

Satyaraj: Rupa did not write any text on Caitanya’s divinity, neither Sanatana, nor Raghunatha das. There is no scarcity of books by those authors, Caitanya’s most intimate associates living in Vrndavana at that time.

 

Latter on, Krsnadas has postulated Caitanya’s divinity in his Caitanya-caritamrta. For certain his thesis has caused many schisms among exalted Vaisnavas who were living at Vrindavana at that time, such as Vallabha, Hita Harivamsa, Prabhodananda, Mirabai, and countless others who either had found their own sects or stayed alone, and who did not have accepted Krsnadas’ theology and Caitanya’s divinity.

 

Prolix authors and devoted followers such as Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunatha dasa for certain would mentioned Caitanya’s divinity in their works, and they won’t need a mouthpiece like Krsnadas to express their convictions.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 11-15-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Audarya lila: While you're at it you might look a little more closely at Ramananda Samvada which you are so fond of. You will find that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu revealed his identity to him at the end of that famous discourse.

 

Satyaraj: Very interesting point indeed, very clever. It is very hard to make distinctions between a mukta and Hari Himself. Most of sages do agree with that premise. Therefore one should study mukta’s characteristics and affairs to make those distinctions a little more clear.

 

Vedanta-sutras are for certain an excellent source of info in this regard, and one may consult Vedanta-sutras 4.4.1 and 4.4.17, where it is stated that muktas can assume any form and that the muktas have all powers (with the exception of creating an universe).

 

Many do consider Caitanya as an exalted mukta as I do, and for certain we cannot disagree with Ramananda-samvada’s narrative describing Caitanya assuming Radha and Krsna’s forms. Muktas can easily do that; that is to say, they can materialize their satya-sankalpa feelings.

 

But this fact cannot be taken as a proof of any mukta’s divinity, and cannot be conclusive for the manifestation of any avatara. That is why all sages do agree that only sruti texts like Rg Veda (6.47.18) and some Upanisads are to be considered as sound proofs for avataras.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 11-15-2001).]

[Audarya lila]

Satyaraja,

 

Sorry but I don't have the time or the inclination to clear all your misconceptions. Here is a verse that I cut out from Chaitanya Caritamrta that Rupa Goswami speaks when asked to by Ramananda Raya in the second meeting of Rupa and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. This is written in his Vidagda Madhava - there goes your assertion that Rupa Goswami has never written about the divinity of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I will deal with your statements regarding his other intimate associates at a later time when I have more time.

 

Antya lila chapter one:

 

TEXT 132

 

TEXT

 

anarpita-carim cirat

karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

 

SYNONYMS

 

anarpita--not bestowed; carim--having been formerly; cirat--for a long time; karunaya--by causeless mercy; avatirnah--descended; kalau--in the Age of Kali; samarpayitum--to bestow; unnata--elevated; ujjvala-rasam--the conjugal mellow; sva-bhakti--of His own service; sriyam--the treasure; harih--the Supreme Lord; purata--than gold; sundara--more beautiful; dyuti--of splendor; kadamba--with a multitude; sandipitah--illuminated; sada--always; hrdaya-kandare--in the cavity of the heart; sphuratu--let Him be manifest; vah--your; saci-nandanah--the son of mother Saci.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"May the Supreme Lord, who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi, be transcendentally situated in the innermost core of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has descended in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most elevated mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love."

 

PURPORT

 

This verse (Vidagdha-madhava 1.2) also appears in Adi-lila (1.4 and 3.4). In his commentary on Vidagdha-madhava, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks: maha-prabhoh sphurtim vina hari-lila-rasasvadananupapatter iti bhavah. Without the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, one cannot describe the pastimes of the Supreme personality of Godhead. Therefore Srila Rupa Gosvami said, vah yusmakam hrdaya-rupa-guha yam saci-nandano harih, pakse, simhah sphuratu: "May Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is exactly like a lion that kills all the elephants of desire, be awakened within everyone's heart, for by His merciful blessings one can understand the transcendental pastimes of Krsna."

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa