How should the vedic debate be conducted ?

[Guest guest]

I would like to pose a question : How should we discuss vedanta ? What are the rules of etiquette to follow ? How should we arrive at conclusions ?

 

This would improve the quality of our discussions here.

[JRdd]

Visoka dasa

Tue Feb 20, 2001 6:10 am

Debate lessons from Lord Caitanya 1

 

 

"Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches debate. Part 1.

 

"How to listen, and refrain from the tendency to slam dunk the opponent.

 

"Disagreements are vanquished.....

Cc- Mad 10.119:

 

... By Your auspicious mercy, quarrels and disagreements arising among different scriptures are vanquished.....

" From Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila Ch 10 text 119, taken from Sri Caitanya-candrodaya-nataka 8.10.

 

"Excerpt from purport, by Srila Prabhupada:

 

There are many different kinds of scripture, and by reading them one often becomes puzzled. However, when one receives the mercy of the Lord, his confusion is mitigated. Not only are scriptural disparities resolved, but a kind of transcendental bliss is awakened, and in this way one is fully satisfied.

"Note- this is a very powerful purport and verse, take time to read them sometime, CcMad 4, page 167.

 

"So we read from Madhya-lila vol 2, ch 6, "The Liberation of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya," how Sarvabhauma met Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and he asked Him to hear Vedanta philosophy from him. Sri Caitanya accepted this proposal, and for seven days He continuously heard Sarvabhauma

Bhattacarya explain Vedanta-sutra. However, the Lord remained very silent. Sarvabhauma asked the Lord why He did not say anything, whether He thought the explanations were right or wrong. Then Sri Caitanya explained,

 

The meaning of the verses in the Vedanta-sutra contain clear purports in themselves, but other purports you presented simply covered the meaning of the sutra like a cloud.

"Note- Here Sri Chaitanya's words are apropos to our current debates. The meanings of the words of Srila Prabhupada "contain clear purports in themselves," but often the purports presented by different factions

"simply cover the meanings like a cloud." This is the thread of thought I attempted in post ***, the "root of the problem," how various arbitrary explanations of his final tattva from various camps are prone to cover

the actual intrinsic meanings of Srila Prabhupada's...instructions...(clear in themselves) like a cloud covering the sun. By taking this siksa from Lord Caitanya, we shall attempt to grasp the original intrinsic truth from Srila Prabhupada....

 

"So, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is showing us how to be patient and listen to others. Seven days is real patience! And He didn't respond with some kind of frantic vengeance. Even when Ramachandra Puri rebuked Him with

ridiculous charges, Sri Caitanya responded very calmly and soberly, and accepted his ridiculous instructions. In other words, Lord Caitanya didn't slam dunk his opponents, as we shall see in several debates He engaged in. I will try to present more installments on this topic, how His great tolerance and patience and politeness is our example to follow.

 

"Discord shall recede, when we try to please the Lord by our humble attitude and respect for others, and get the Lord's mercy, and be

enlightened within by the mercy of the Lord, as seen in this verse from Cc, Mad 4, text 106:

 

When the Lord will be pleased with you, you will also understand these conclusions and will quote from the sastras.

ys Visoka dasa"

 

 

 

[Caitanyachandra]

Should follow this:

 

1. General Proposition.

2. Reason.

3.

4.

5. Conclusion.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Caitanyachandra:

Should follow this:

 

1. General Proposition.

2. Reason.

3.

4.

5. Conclusion.

 

The posts on the example set by Sri Caitanya and this simple formula are very good. As for as Caitanya Mahaprabhu's discussion with Sarvabhauma is concerned, He listened, then He declared that Sarvabhauma's explanation is not correct understanding of Vedanta and then went on to give His own explanation. Did He also refute the postulates ? Did Sarvabhauma ask questions and were they answered ? In what mood were the questions asked and how were they answered ? Apart from this incident, there are many incidences in history when great scholars and acharyas have debated like Sankara vs. Sarada's husband, Sankara vs. Mimamsakas, Ramanuja vs. Sanakarites, Madhva against Sankarites and Sri Vaishnavas, Caitanya vs. Madhvas, Nimbarka vs. Bhashyakarar and many more before this in history. How were they conducted ?

 

Is there any sastra which tells us the process for entering into spiritual debates ?

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by ram:

[bIs there any sastra which tells us the process for entering into spiritual debates ?

Hare Krsna. This is such a vital topic. Apart from any systems for debate, there is an attitude. A basic attitude of respectfulness. As we have seen on these forums, respect must come from all sides or the discussion quickly falls apart. The good people leave or give up, as it is not possible to discuss anything with constant heckling. This seems to be a particular problem to cyber-discussions. In a physical meeting place, disrespectful persons would be thrown out. Also in a physical meeting place, few have the guts to speak out in such a manner in the first place, so there is less of a problem.

 

"Here is something from the introductory letter to an egroup I belong to. Nine months later, this group still maintains respect, which results in many useful and sweet loving exchanges as per the true mood of the Vaisnavas. I hope this sheds additional light on this discussion. I edited parts out for the sake of brevity, and added bold.

 

Introduction letter

 

"...my idea was that we are not any faction....We...feel that we all desperately need more devotee association without the harsh rhetoric and fighting. Therefore we make this ironclad rule, no insulting, or foul language, only vaisnava etiquette. We only want to carry out Srila Prabhupada's main concern, that we cooperate together.

 

"So, we would greatly appreciate your cyber association, and, you can discuss or read the topics that you want.

 

"....they must follow the protocol of objective reasoning without personal attacks. This...won't be the same old arguments and insults, etc. It will be strictly regulated by our protocol of discussion.

 

"The point is, we want to come to a collective understanding....How can we all come together in complete cooperation, if we

don't have a collective understanding?

 

"I am not totally sure how exclusive we will be in the acceptance or rejection of those who want to participate. Our cover letter explains that they only have to be a "devoted follower of Srila Prabhupada." But

then again, many claim to this, and at the same time they contribute to the cause of serious aberrations to his teachings. I think this will work itself out naturally. I personally will not accept those devotees who persistently insult other devotees. That is where I draw the line....The beauty is, that anyone who argues...will have to use objective reasoning and not the usual character attacks, etc. And, most important, we carry the discussion to the full conclusion, without any skirting of questions."

 

 

[shvu]

 

I am not aware of written down rules for how debates were to be conducted. But the common practice was, if x defeated y, y changed over to x's system. This is how people used to win over followers. If a famous personality was defeated, he and his followers would change over to the winner's system.

 

Kumarila Bhatta, the prominent Purva-mimamsaka icon, defeated lots of Buddhists and converted them back to hinduism. The debate between Shankara and Mandana Mishra is described with a lot of detail, in the Madhaviya shankara vijayam. Finally Mandana lost the debate, gave up Purva Mimamsa and became Shankara'a disciple under the name of Sureshvara [the first pontiff of the Sringeri Math].

 

However, there are a number of bogus stories of debates between famous personalities, which never happened. For instance, there is a story of Madhva debating with Vidyasankara, who was the pontiff of the Sringeri Math. Apparently the debate went on for 12 days, but the conclusion is not known ! Since the loser would have changed over, this debate never happened.

 

Another prominent Advaitin named Appaya Dixitha, was supposedly defeated by Vijiyendra Thirtha, a disciple of Vyasaraya Thirtha and that too, many times! After defeating him, Vijiyendra apparently told Appaya, "It's ok, dude...you continue with Advaita". Another bogus story, as this is not supported by many Dvaitins themselves.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-04-2001).]

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Hare Krsna. This is such a vital topic. Apart from any systems for debate, there is an attitude. A basic attitude of respectfulness. As we have seen on these forums, respect must come from all sides or the discussion quickly falls apart. The good people leave or give up, as it is not possible to discuss anything with constant heckling. This seems to be a particular problem to cyber-discussions. In a physical meeting place, disrespectful persons would be thrown out. Also in a physical meeting place, few have the guts to speak out in such a manner in the first place, so there is less of a problem.

 

"Here is something from the introductory letter to an egroup I belong to. Nine months later, this group still maintains respect, which results in many useful and sweet loving exchanges as per the true mood of the Vaisnavas. I hope this sheds additional light on this discussion. I edited parts out for the sake of brevity, and added bold.

 

Introduction letter

 

"...my idea was that we are not any faction....We...feel that we all desperately need more devotee association without the harsh rhetoric and fighting. Therefore we make this ironclad rule, no insulting, or foul language, only vaisnava etiquette. We only want to carry out Srila Prabhupada's main concern, that we cooperate together.

 

"So, we would greatly appreciate your cyber association, and, you can discuss or read the topics that you want.

 

"....they must follow the protocol of objective reasoning without personal attacks. This...won't be the same old arguments and insults, etc. It will be strictly regulated by our protocol of discussion.

 

"The point is, we want to come to a collective understanding....How can we all come together in complete cooperation, if we

don't have a collective understanding?

 

"I am not totally sure how exclusive we will be in the acceptance or rejection of those who want to participate. Our cover letter explains that they only have to be a "devoted follower of Srila Prabhupada." But

then again, many claim to this, and at the same time they contribute to the cause of serious aberrations to his teachings. I think this will work itself out naturally. I personally will not accept those devotees who persistently insult other devotees. That is where I draw the line....The beauty is, that anyone who argues...will have to use objective reasoning and not the usual character attacks, etc. And, most important, we carry the discussion to the full conclusion, without any skirting of questions."

 

 

 

Swell, so where is this group? That way we will all be able to participate in both places, rather than attempting to remake either to suit ourselves.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ram: Is there any sastra which tells us the process for entering into spiritual debates ?

 

Satyaraj: Yes, one should consult Bhagavad-gita 10.32:

 

adhyatma-vidya vidyanam / vadah pravadatam aham

 

“Of all knowledge I am atma-jñana, and in logical debate I am vada the principle that asserts a conclusion.”

 

In that sloka from Gita Krsna is stating; “Within logical debate (pravadatam), which consists of jalpa, vitanda and vada which establish one’s own point and refutes the opponent’s assertion, I am vada, by which siddhanta and tattva are established.”

In regard to those who debate Krsna states that He is the vada, the conclusion (tattva) ascertained by proper deliberation, logic and argument. In the field of argument and logic, vada, jalpa and vitanda are quite well known.

 

When, for the sake of establishing one’s own opinion, one continuously finds faults with the opponent’s statements, it is called jalpa.

 

Keeping the truth aside and avoiding proper deliberation and logic while finding fault in an opponent’s statement is called vitanda.

 

The purpose of such arguments is not to ascertain reality but only to display one’s scholarship and the desire to defeat the opponent is very strong.

 

That deliberation which ascertains the Absolute Reality is called vada. This vada is superior to all other forms of discussion.

 

When a mukta and a seeker who is hankering for spiritual knowledge have a positive dialogue about the Absolute Truth, the conclusion they reach is called vada. The pride of scholarship does not exist within such exchanges as there is no desire to defeat the other person.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 10-04-2001).]

[JRdd]

Oops.

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-04-2001).]

[JRdd]

I did not see the post above, which came moments before mine. My post refers to the question of everyone here participating in the egroup I mentioned. Here is my answer:

 

This group is pretty much by invitation, when a member recognises someone who he or she deems is respectful of the devotees and of Srila Prabhupada. Not those who harrass or insult others or commit offenses to the acharya.

 

I have not noticed an attempt to remake this forum, so can not answer that. I do notice, however, that some do desire it to have a more harmonious atmosphere. I do wish Jahnava Nitai all the best in his endeavours to keep this forum as such.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-04-2001).]

[valaya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

I did not see the post above, which came moments before mine. My post refers to the question of everyone here participating in the egroup I mentioned. Here is my answer:

 

This group is pretty much by invitation, when a member recognises someone who he or she deems is respectful of the devotees and of Srila Prabhupada. Not those who harrass or insult others or commit offenses to the acharya.

 

I have not noticed an attempt to remake this forum, so can not answer that. I do notice, however, that some do desire it to have a more harmonious atmosphere. I do wish Jahnava Nitai all the best in his endeavours to keep this forum as such.

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-04-2001).]

 

Those of us within this not-so-exclusive group obviously are not all being offered the luxury of choice that you apparently enjoy. I might therefore suggest that moderation of this particular forum be left to the moderator. Perhaps a select few of us may be found worthy of your more `genteel` association at some future time. Guess that's something most of us can only aspire to, eh prabhus?

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-04-2001).]

[JRdd]

Hare Krsna!

 

I believe there may be some (deliberate?) misunderstandings here. The egroup is exclusive only in the exact way that Srila Prabhupada's temples were exclusive: Anyone was welcome. But troublemakers were made to leave. I beleive some of the problem in misunderstanding this may be due to lack of experience; those of us who spent many years in his ashrams simply crave that same peaceful harmonious atmosphere. And the kind devotees who created the egroup did so for that express purpose. It is the one place where we know we can go and will not run into the disrepsectful behaviour of you Dvivida gorilla dasas. If one feels excluded, one has excluded himself. A child can not go to an adult function unless the child can behave himself. Simple as that.

 

[JRdd]

Can there be more postive inputs to this thread? Heckling is the same old same old. I am certain that was not Ram's intention in starting this thread. I am trying to give positive contributions, as in the debating example of Lord Caitanya, above. If you don't like me, kindly try to control yourselves for the sake of this discussion. Please. I am asking politely.

[M-dd]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Can there be more postive inputs to this thread? Heckling is the same old same old. I am certain that was not Ram's intention in starting this thread. I am trying to give positive contributions, as in the debating example of Lord Caitanya, above. If you don't like me, kindly try to control yourselves for the sake of this discussion. Please. I am asking politely.

Trouble here, Jayaradhe prabhu, is that some here have only one agenda, to squelch truth and Truth. They are pitiable and they are envious.

 

Valaya's continued attempts to attack your words here, and elsewhere, only show himself up, not you. And Satyaraj's foolish cheering of him is stooping low even for him.

 

For every action there is a reaction. The man who raped my 14yr old virgin daughter has become paralyzed from the neck down, he can't rape another little girl. Be warned, I say to fools, especially fools guilty of mysogenism against Srila Prabhupada's daughters and granddaughters. To create such offenses is to curse oneself.

 

Valaya have a care, you spout out your intimacy with Radharani, yet you can't even conceive the extent of Her mercy that is already embodied in this saintly poster who is benedicting us all with her association. You on this other forum? You are not a Prabhupadanuga, that is the only qualification there. No, you don't qualify, and why would you want to qualify as his follower when you are very outspoken about NOT being his follower?

 

I'm happy to see that she is happily unaffected by your invalidating attempts to shut her up, your mysogeny. She reminds me of the kid who is unafraid of the neighboring bullies cuz he knows his father is watching over him. Jayaradhe knows that Srila Prabhupada is watching over her, his beloved daughter, and with that love of his is included Radharani's mercy, something you are not familiar with.

 

Now, speaking of debate, I think I'll start a new thread to not go any further off this thread's topic than it has already been veered by these envious retorts.

 

[Guest guest]

LET ME REPOST THE QUESTION AGAIN. HOW SHOULD VEDIC DEBATE BE CONDUCTED ? IN SCIENCE, THEORY IS ESTABLISHED BASED ON ESTABLISHED THEORIES OR EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS. IF WE CONDUCT VEDIC DEBATES WITHOUT FOLLOWING THE VADA DHARMA, WE WILL NOT GET ANY WHERE.

 

PLEASE REFER TO SASTRAS IN YOUR REPLY.

[Guest guest]

Those of us within this not-so-exclusive group obviously are not all being offered the luxury of choice that you apparently enjoy. I might therefore suggest that moderation of this particular forum be left to the moderator. Perhaps a select few of us may be found worthy of your more `genteel` association at some future time. Guess that's something most of us can only aspire to, eh prabhus? (Valaya)

 

Dear Valaya;

 

Today you are really very inspirited in your answers, congratulations & thanx! It shouldn’t be better!