Debate this!

[M-dd]

Sirla Prabhupada brought Krsna to the western world, making His Holy Name familiar in every town and village. The Hare Krsna's became household knowledge everywhere, due to his efforts and the extending efforts of his followers. In fact, Harinam Sankirtan appears in numerous Hollywood movies as part of our culture, solely due to the efforts of Srila Prabhupada. Thus he is qualified as world acarya, proven by this external manifestation of Lord Caitanya's empowerment, and any who follow in his wake can be understood to be exhaulted to the degree they revere and emulate his passtimes and follow his footsteps. Thus, those who speak against him and his transcendental explainations and conclusions, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to minimize his great unrivalled transcendental feet, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to cloud the Absolute Truth he disseminated, they are the sectarean ones. They are the envious ones. They are the ones who CANNOT deliver transcendental knowledge of Krsna, or the potency of His Holy Name.

 

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-04-2001).]

[kailasa]

The devotee Lord Caitanya travel from one installed in another. Srila Prabhupada now probably in other installed already. He has left on a coast of next "New York". It is a little more and at him will appear the first diciples. The inquisitive diciples will ask Prabhupada - " Srila Prabhupada , and whom you were in the last life? ", Prabhupada will look at them and smiling will tell:

 

" My astrologist has told, that in the last life I was the pharmacist ".

[Guest guest]

 

Mohammed brought Allah to the western world, making His Holy Name familiar in every town and village. The Islam's became household knowledge everywhere, due to his efforts and the extending efforts of his followers. In fact, Jihad appears in numerous Hollywood movies as part of our culture, solely due to the efforts of Mohammed. Thus he is qualified as world prophet, proven by this external manifestation of Allah's empowerment, and any who follow in his wake can be understood to be exhaulted to the degree they revere and emulate his passtimes and follow his footsteps. Thus, those who speak against him and his transcendental explanations and conclusions, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to minimize his great unrivalled transcendental feet, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to cloud the Absolute Truth he disseminated, they are the sectarean ones. They are the envious ones. They are the ones who CANNOT deliver transcendental knowledge of Allah, or the potency of Islam. Death to the infidels!!!

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Very cute, Satyaraja. The death idea is, however, your own spin on things. It seems you still feel that you must have an enemy.

 

If you think she is minimizing anyone by her post just be straightforward and say so. She is clearly referring to other Gaudiya's in this post so I don't think it's very relevant for your good self anyway.

 

The only issue I have with the type of statement being made is that it sounds like the statement 'My Guru is Jagat Guru - all others are less'. I don't think that Madhavi-devi dasi meant it that way, but there is a real danger for all of us that in our glorification and appreciation of our preceptors that we become myopic and fail to recognize the glory of all of Krsna's messengers. Krsna uses his messenger's however he sees fit. That one spreads the Holy Name far and wide is certainly wonderful but it should be properly understood that Krsna's devotees who don't do so are not less glorious or are to be thought of in a 'lesser' way.

 

Who is better, the bhajanandi or the gosthanandi? We will leave that for Krsna to decide.

 

The point that I think is very salient that Madhavi-devi dasi is bringing to the forfront is that we should never minimize the glories of Krsna's servants. Anyone who does so is certainly not pleasing Krsna. If we aren't inspired in a certain way - that's fine - we should find the best instruction for us to be inspired and at the same time be very careful to be humble and avoid offenses to those who have dedicated their lives to serving the Lord and spreading the glories of his Holy Name.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Recently someone has posted an article by your Prabhupada the thread called “Absolute Authority,” wherein he is clear defending the punishment by a Krsna-conscious ruler; “if you do not know God- or if you have some imaginary god- then you must learn who God actually is. And if you refuse to learn then you must be punished.”

 

What is the real difference between a Krsna-conscious ruler as proposed by him and a Allah-conscious ruler as proposed by Mohammed in Koran? Maybe one’s side of the border? And what sort of punishment one would deserve by violating this rule according to your Prabhupada?

Let’s 'debate this'!

 

[mahak]

I dont debate idiots and psychos, but a Krsna Copnscious ruler, first and foremost, would "welcome the religious impulse in humankind", as did Srila Prabhupada. A Krsna Conscious ruler would have complete religious freedom in his kingdom, including freedom to be an atheist, because such a person has faith in the process designed by God to reach an individual (guru tattwa).

 

The reason that religious freedom is tolerated by a Krsna Conscious individual is because the person knows that loving God is based on free will and the choice to render service. Any force and coercion applied to another to enforce sectarian belief is known and seen by the sane to be thoroughly against the laws of spiritual love. Forced love is called rape, and God does not rape anyone.

 

Satyarajas offensive attempt of humor is misplaced and shows him to be not of sound religious principle. His total approach is to discredit an important Vaisnava Acarya and seldom offers anything of value to any conversation. His hatred of one who is universally recognized as a bonafide authority on Vaisnavism is intolerable, and I request the moderator to again ban this individual from sane conversation held here. There is no problem debating issues, even questioning various philosophical points presented by various authorities, but to make such an offensive remark and trying to analogize Srila Prabhupada with anti-Allah fanatics is most reprehensible.

 

No one needs to curse you, bro, you are already living in the worst condition imaginable.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[karthik_v]

Hare Krishna,

 

While Satyaraja's intention may be to denigrate the movement of Srila Prabhupad, I think he has raised a valid point as well.

 

To what extent can a Krishna Conscious ruler go, to spread the holy name in his kingdom? Can he indulge in violence against those who disagree with him or question the authority of Krishna? Exactly, under what circumstances is violence allowed?

 

I know that Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy which we follow is different from Advaita and vedanta schools. So, there will always be debates on the aspects of philosophy. But, can we attack the acharyas of other schools? Even we agree that Adi Sankaracarya was an avatar of Lord Shiva. Likewise, it is very obvious that individuals like Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati of Kanchi Sankara Mutt and Ramana Maharishi have been great jnanis or muktas. So, can we talk about them or their philosophy in a condescending manner?

[valaya]

If someone tries to shove something down another's throat (`Debate This!`), they can expect to be vomited on. Intentional provocation inspires reaction in kind. Then, of course, the usual cries of offensive, abusive, etc. ring out self-righteously. All this is always done in the name of loving service to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

We've been here before, on other forums, with the same individuals who seem adamantly locked in the past, while continuing to viciously lash out at others rather than face their own obvious shortcomings. The only solution, albeit temporary, remains avoidance. Perhaps all they have to teach us is self-control...though not by their own examples.

 

For those to whom Srila Prabhupada, as THEY understand him, continues to be their all-in-all and the sole personification of absolute truth, other forums are available. In fact, many of us here are not welcome there, so a certain `intolerance` might be expected on the part of some of us.

 

If so-called `Prabhupadanugas` actually were that, their fruits of devotion would be apparent to everyone. As for those who continue to identify themselves as initiated disciples after abandoning their vows... Give us a break, eh?

 

valaya RR

[M-dd]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

...so I don't think it's very relevant for your good self anyway.

Great answer prabhu.

 

The only issue I have with the type of statement being made is that it sounds like the statement 'My Guru is Jagat Guru - all others are less'.

My guru is Jagat Guru. I am speaking no ill of other gurus.

 

About Mohammed, the fact is, what he spread in islam or wherever has nothing to do with what I said about Srila Prabhupada spreading the Holy Name to this culture, and around the world. The 'islam' followers do not follow Allah in their hate and terrorisms, as prominent muslim leaders have said, it is against Allah to kill women children and innocent people. Srila Prabhupada said a vaisnava is always a perfect gentleman. A perfect gentleman, vaisnava 'ruler', would not employ such ideas as have been suggested by both Satyaraj and karthika_v suggest.

 

I don't think that Madhavi-devi dasi meant it that way,

Thanks.

 

... but there is a real danger for all of us that in our glorification and appreciation of our preceptors that we become myopic and fail to recognize the glory of all of Krsna's messengers.

Point taken. But don't assume the latter point. What is the point of bringing up myopic in the topic? Who is advocating not to reckognize all of Krsna's messengers? Krsna consciousness is personalism, and I am reckognizing personally that of which I have personal experience. Why should that be construed as threatening? Taking the Holy Name into the street is the message, conclusion, Every Town and Village, as Srila Prabhupada would assure us all.

 

Krsna uses his messenger's however he sees fit. That one spreads the Holy Name far and wide is certainly wonderful but it should be properly understood that Krsna's devotees who don't do so are not less glorious or are to be thought of in a 'lesser' way.

This is completely off the point I made. I said nothing of calling anybody lesser, so how does it apply to a debate? Anybody have those debate rules we were hearing from historic conversations of acaryas, acaryas who are worshippable, there is no shortage of acaryas, nor did I imply there was. And a real acarya will reckognize another real acarya, there is a spiritual relationship they have, and they share with us glimpses of it.

 

Who is better, the bhajanandi or the gosthanandi? We will leave that for Krsna to decide.

Again, I said nothing of better, I spoke only of one who gives Krsna and embodies the unfathomable depth of compassion and love for all living entities fountains from a heart always in love with Krsna.

 

The point that I think is very salient that Madhavi-devi dasi is bringing to the forfront is that we should never minimize the glories of Krsna's servants. Anyone who does so is certainly not pleasing Krsna. If we aren't inspired in a certain way - that's fine - we should find the best instruction for us to be inspired and at the same time be very careful to be humble and avoid offenses to those who have dedicated their lives to serving the Lord and spreading the glories of his Holy Name.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

Very well said. Thanks much for this post.

 

 

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-05-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-05-2001).]

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Mvdd:

Anybody have those debate rules we were hearing from historic conversations of acaryas, acaryas who are worshippable....

Visoka dasa

Tue Feb 20, 2001 6:10 am

Debate lessons from Lord Caitanya 1

 

 

"Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches debate. Part 1.

 

"How to listen, and refrain from the tendency to slam dunk the opponent.

 

"Disagreements are vanquished.....

Cc- Mad 10.119:

 

... By Your auspicious mercy, quarrels and disagreements arising among different scriptures are vanquished.....

" From Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila Ch 10 text 119, taken from Sri Caitanya-candrodaya-nataka 8.10.

 

"Excerpt from purport, by Srila Prabhupada:

 

There are many different kinds of scripture, and by reading them one often becomes puzzled. However, when one receives the mercy of the Lord, his confusion is mitigated. Not only are scriptural disparities resolved, but a kind of transcendental bliss is awakened, and in this way one is fully satisfied.

"Note- this is a very powerful purport and verse, take time to read them sometime, CcMad 4, page 167.

 

"So we read from Madhya-lila vol 2, ch 6, "The Liberation of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya," how Sarvabhauma met Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and he asked Him to hear Vedanta philosophy from him. Sri Caitanya accepted this proposal, and for seven days He continuously heard Sarvabhauma

Bhattacarya explain Vedanta-sutra. However, the Lord remained very silent. Sarvabhauma asked the Lord why He did not say anything, whether He thought the explanations were right or wrong. Then Sri Caitanya explained,

 

The meaning of the verses in the Vedanta-sutra contain clear purports in themselves, but other purports you presented simply covered the meaning of the sutra like a cloud.

"Note- Here Sri Chaitanya's words are apropos to our current debates. The meanings of the words of Srila Prabhupada "contain clear purports in themselves," but often the purports presented by different factions

"simply cover the meanings like a cloud." This is the thread of thought I attempted in post ***, the "root of the problem," how various arbitrary explanations of his final tattva from various camps are prone to cover

the actual intrinsic meanings of Srila Prabhupada's...instructions...(clear in themselves) like a cloud covering the sun. By taking this siksa from Lord Caitanya, we shall attempt to grasp the original intrinsic truth from Srila Prabhupada....

 

"So, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is showing us how to be patient and listen to others. Seven days is real patience! And He didn't respond with some kind of frantic vengeance. Even when Ramachandra Puri rebuked Him with

ridiculous charges, Sri Caitanya responded very calmly and soberly, and accepted his ridiculous instructions. In other words, Lord Caitanya didn't slam dunk his opponents, as we shall see in several debates He engaged in. I will try to present more installments on this topic, how His great tolerance and patience and politeness is our example to follow.

 

"Discord shall recede, when we try to please the Lord by our humble attitude and respect for others, and get the Lord's mercy, and be

enlightened within by the mercy of the Lord, as seen in this verse from Cc, Mad 4, text 106:

 

When the Lord will be pleased with you, you will also understand these conclusions and will quote from the sastras.

ys Visoka dasa"

 

 

 

[Janus]

>>>I dont debate idiots and psychos, but a Krsna Copnscious ruler, first and foremost, would "welcome the religious impulse in humankind", as did Srila Prabhupada. A Krsna Conscious ruler would have complete religious freedom in his kingdom, including freedom to be an atheist, because such a person has faith in the process designed by God to reach an individual (guru tattwa).

The reason that religious freedom is tolerated by a Krsna Conscious individual is because the person knows that loving God is based on free will and the choice to render service. Any force and coercion applied to another to enforce sectarian belief is known and seen by the sane to be thoroughly against the laws of spiritual love>>

 

Just about three years ago the women in ISKCON were trying to jolt the movement out of it's medeival mentality. At the time (and I know that there still is) there was a backlash against anything like the suggestion that women should be treated with respect and dignity and viewed with equality from within the movement and this backlash included many of the temple presidents and higher authorities. I recall how at the time these men were speaking very freely about their admiration of the Taliban and making suggestion that the Krsna consciousness movement link up with them, as they shared so many views in common, at least by the estimate of these men.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Excerpt from purport, by Srila Prabhupada:

quote:

 

There are many different kinds of scripture, and by reading them one often becomes puzzled. However, when one receives the mercy of the Lord, his confusion is mitigated. Not only are scriptural disparities resolved, but a kind of transcendental bliss is awakened, and in this way one is fully satisfied.

 

That is why Mohammed has kindly given us Koran and has banished all other scriptures.

 

[Guest guest]

karthik_v: ...There will always be debates on the aspects of philosophy... But, can we talk about them or their philosophy in a condescending manner?

 

Satyaraj: Some may prefer the Islamic way of debate that is the monologue. But sanatana-dharma fully agrees with dissension. The process taught by Vedanta-acaryas is the one of pravadatam, following Bhagavad-gita (10.32).

 

Pravadatam consists of jalpa, vitanda and vada.

When, for the sake of establishing one’s own opinion, one continuously finds faults with the opponent’s statements, it is called jalpa.

 

Keeping the truth aside and avoiding proper deliberation and logic while finding fault in an opponent’s statement is called vitanda.

 

The purpose of such arguments is not to ascertain reality but only to display one’s scholarship and the desire to defeat the opponent is very strong. That deliberation which ascertains the Absolute Reality is called vada. This vada is superior to all other forms of discussion.

 

So, according to one’s category of pravadatam, a condescending manner is allowed as we can observe in so many ancient debates such as Yamunacarya’s, Sankara’s, Caitanya’s and so on. Don’t recall Caitanya’s debates with Kesava Kashimir and Vallacarya for example?

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 10-06-2001).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by M-dd:

A perfect gentleman, vaisnava 'ruler', would not employ such ideas as have been suggested by both Satyaraj and karthik_v suggest.

 

I never suggested that a vaishnava ruler would deploy oppressive means to spread KC. I want to make things clear if my words had not been clear earlier.

 

I was inquiring into the role of a vaishnava ruler in the context of spreading KC, how he should deal with different philosophies including opposing ones. I was looking for answers from devotees and I was not making a statement.

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

So, according to one’s category of pravadatam, a condescending manner is allowed as we can observe in so many ancient debates such as Yamunacarya’s, Sankara’s, Caitanya’s and so on. Don’t recall Caitanya’s debates with Kesava Kashimir and Vallacarya for example?

 

Exposing the holes in the other school of thought is one thing, but to denigrate the acarya of another bonafide school is different. If there are many bonafide schools, such as Gaudiya Vaishnava, Sri Vaishnava, Advaita et al. then each preceptor should have realized the supreme in varying degrees or moods. For example, a Gaudiya vaishnava acarya might have attained personal realization of Krishna while an advaita guru might have had brahman realizaion.

 

Now, can the followers of either school of thought denigrate the preceptor of the other? Would that not be sectarian? Would that not derail any philosophical debate and just result in clash of egos? Would it not sabotage the very spiritual advancement that we are seeking?

[Pita das]

Dear Prabhujis,

Hare Krishna!Obeisances at all of your feet!All Glories to Shree Shree Guru and Gouranga!

Srila Prabhupada is who His Divine Gace is.

If one may understand or not it does not change who he is and what he accomlpished.

If one looks at what he accompished we can understand that His Divine Grace Is certianly Jagat Guru as is His Divine Grace Prabhupada whom he is magnifing and strickly following the order of.

If one is to understand that Sheee Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is Krishna Himself and if we look at whom has brought Him to the western world and all over the world then we will understand Whom Srila Prabhupada is.

We wish all can be touch by his transendal darshan but tho that truely represent Him maybe able to give even 1% of his mercy will have a great effect on the hearts of the hearders.

So we pray like this for srila Prabhupadas mercy on all of you .

It is not that this or that precestor is higher or lower we are all within the Lord Sankirtian Party and should be begging the mercy form all of His parasat to help us become truely connected to them.

We want to churn the pastimes of the great devottees to become inspired to serve God as they have served.

By Thier Divine Grace and not for any other reason of ego manification which keeps us glued to this demension of I have had enough of .

I would like out and into a truely Spiritually relmn and we all want that hopefully.

Prabhupada both of them all of them Are preaching back home back to GODHEAD of which

much information has been given dont offend others do good for them.

 

[M-dd]

Originally posted by mahak:

... but a Krsna Copnscious ruler, first and foremost, would "welcome the religious impulse in humankind", as did Srila Prabhupada. A Krsna Conscious ruler would have complete religious freedom in his kingdom, including freedom to be an atheist, because such a person has faith in the process designed by God to reach an individual (guru tattwa).

 

The reason that religious freedom is tolerated by a Krsna Conscious individual is because the person knows that loving God is based on free will and the choice to render service. Any force and coercion applied to another to enforce sectarian belief is known and seen by the sane to be thoroughly against the laws of spiritual love. Forced love is called rape, and God does not rape anyone.

And I second your motion to the moderator re/banning.

 

No one needs to curse you, bro, you are already living in the worst condition imaginable.

Precisely. And haven't we seen the spiritual downfall on another forum in just that way, after repeated warnings from caring posters that he subside in his offensive tack? Next everyone felt sorry for him, but this is what I saw all along, what you have described. Now I feel great sadness at the thought that this individual, and many others, will not be able to see His Divine Grace chanting in every town and village of the world, while the whole rest of the world is dancing with him! I am learning what Srila Prabhupada's compassion is, but only a glimpse.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Thanks, prabhu, for this great keeping the focus post! All glories to Srila Prabhupada who spread the glories of Lord Sri Caitanya all over the world!

 

Harer Namah...

 

And wouldn't you agree, the proposed topic remains un-knicked?

 

Aspiring to be of service,

M-d.d.

[kailasa]

1. Concerning the terrorist certificates(acts) in USA of September 11, 2001

 

... As to that happened in USA, it - from most dangerous

Events, because of which thousand souls were lost, it is actions, which

Are unlawful islam sariat and which not from this religion. These

The actions contradict spirit and bases of the legislation from all

Corners of sight:

 

Really, Allah, free from all lacks, ïîâåëåâàåò

Validity, and on what keep heavens and ground - is based on

Validity. And from this validity were íèñïîñëàíû

The envoys and ïèñàíèÿ. Allah, free from all lacks, has told:

" Really, Allah validity, áëàãîäåÿíèå and gift close orders;

And it(he) keeps from ìåðçîñòè, mean and crime (oppression). It(he)

óâåùàåò you: can be, you come round! " (16:90)

 

And it(he) also speaks: " we have sent our envoys with clear signs

(Proofs) and íèçâåëè together with them ïèñàíèå and âåñû, that the people

Stood in validity... ". (57:25)

 

And Allah ïðåäóñòàíîâèë also has legalized, that any soul can not bear(carry) burden

(Sin) of other soul, it proceeds from perfection of justice Allah,

Free from lacks. It(he) has told: "... Will not incur(carry) carrying I carry

Another ". (17:16)

 

 

Really, Allah, free from all lacks, has forbidden an oppression

To itself(himself), and it(he) also has announced by his(its) forbidden for The slaves. It(he)

Has told in õàäèñå-êóäñè: " About, my slaves! Really, I have forbidden to myself

Oppression, and I have made by his(its) forbidden for you, therefore do not oppress the friend

The friend ". And it - instruction to all slaves Allah, and ìóñóëüìàíàì, and

íåìóñóëüìàíàì. To be invalid to somebody unfair to another and

To oppress it(him), even, if the hostility and hatred takes place. Allah,

Free from all lacks, speaks: " O you, which óâåðîâàëè! Be

Proof ïðåä Allah, èñïîâåäíèêàìè (witnesses) on validity.

Hatred to the people of a sin let does not attract on you that you

Will disturb validity. Be fair, it - is closer to

áîãîáîÿçíåííîñòè, you also are afraid Allah, really, Allah ñâåäóù that

Do(make)! " (5: Therefore, even hatred and hostility, do not give right on

Injustice and oppression, from the point of view of the legislation.

 

According to âûøåñêàçàííûì, all from us are obliged to know, state, and

Societies(community), ìóñóëüìàíå and íåìóñóëüìàíå, following important questions:

 

1. That the events, which took place in the united States and where that

Was, consisting in capture of planes and hostages, or murder

The innocent people without the law, - are only display

Injustice, oppression and tyranny, which islam øàðè'àò not

Only does not permit or ïðèåìëåò, but also obviously forbids, and it - from

Greatest sins.

 

2. That ìóñóëüìàíèí, which studies the religion, and works on a basis

The books Allah and Sunna of His(its) prophet (world to it(him) and áëàãîñëîâåíèå Allah) not

Will afford to run in similar äåÿíèÿ, because it will cause of anger

Allah, and the fruit it is harm and íå÷åñòèå (on ground).

 

3. The scientists islam Umma are obliged to explain true about similar businesses

(I.e. òåðàêòàõ) and clearly to give to understand to the world, that øàðè'àò Allah and

Islam never permit such actions.

 

4. Mass media and people worth behind them, those who throws

Accusations against ìóñóëüìàí also tries î÷åðíèòü their religion, attributing

To it(her) from what she(it) is free, kindling enmity, damaging reputation

Islam and ìóñóëüìàí, trying to divide(share) hearts of the people and to compress their breasts

(I.e. to install fear) - are obliged to leave this error and to understand, that

Each reasonable and fair man knows about Islam, and knows, that

It is impossible to attribute to it(him) (Islam) these things...

 

General ìóôòèé êîðîëåâñòâà Saudi Arabia,

The president of Committee of the main scientists and Centre of knowledge,

Researches and ôàòâ,

' Àáäó-ëü-Àçèç èáí Àáäóëëà èáí Ìóõàììàä Àëü Àø-Øåéõ.

 

------ -----------------------------

 

2. Rather ñàìîïîäðûâîâ and êàìèìàäçå

 

About ñàìîïîäðûâàõ

 

In the interpretation "Ðèéàäó-ñ-Ñàëèõèí", ò. 1, ññ. 165-166, explaining

Lessons õàäèñà Ñóõàéáà, øåéõ Èáí ' Óñàéìèí has told:

 

"... And in - fourth: that is unlawful to the man, to subject itself

Dangers to business of general(common) advantage(benefit) ìóñóëüìàí, that the boy

Has specified I reign a way, with which it(he) can be killed (here there is a speech about one

õàäèñå)...

 

But as to that some people make the certificates(acts) of suicide,

Adhering to itself explosive substances and then, coming nearer to the non-believer,

Blow up among them, it - obvious suicide. And we search refuge at

Àëëàõà from him(it). Who has made suicide, is considered(examined)

(øàðèàòîì) eternally staying in fire, as it is mentioned in õàäèñå

The prophet (world to it(him)):

 

" And who has killed itself by the iron weapon, then the iron weapon remain

In his(its) hand, and it(he) will render continuously by him(it) impact to itself(himself) in a stomach on fire

Hell, is eternal ". Have transferred Àëü-Áóõàðè, ¦ 5778 and Ìóñëèì, ¦ 109, in the Book Èìàíà.

(õàäèñ, transferred(handed) Àëü-Áóõàðè and Ìóñëèìîì, - name "coordinated" and

Carry to a maximum degree of reliability).

 

As this man has killed itself and has not benefitted Islam. If it(he)

Kills itself together with ten, one hundred, or two hundreds other people,

Then Èñëàì will not take advantage(benefit) of it, as the people will not accept Islam,

As in a history of the boy. Opposite(on the contrary), it faster only will make an enemy more

Resolute, and this action will cause ïðåñòóïíîå intention and ãîðå÷ü in it(him)

Heart up to such degree, that it(he) will aspire to put a loss

ìóñóëüìàíàì.

 

It is possible to find it - that in practice of the Jews with the people of Palestine. When

One of ïàëåñòèíöåâ undermines itself(himself) and kills six or seven men,

Then in îòìåñòêó they kill sixty or more. Therefore it (äåÿíèå)

Does not bring advantage(benefit) ìóñóëüìàíàì, among whom the bomb blows up.

 

What we adhere: that those people, which make ñàìîïîäðûâ

Go on illegal and ãðåõîâíîå suicide, and that it results in hell, from

Which we search refuges at Allah, and, that this man - not øàõèä for@

(ìó÷åíèê). However, if the man has made it, leaning(basing) on incorrect

The interpretation, thinking, that it is legal, then we hope,

That it(he) will be rescued from a sin, but as to ìó÷åíè÷åñòâà,

Attributed to it(him), it(him) is is not present, as it(he) did not follow by a way

ìó÷åíè÷åñòâà... ".

 

Øåéõ Èáí ' Óñàéìèí, comment to " Ðèéàäó-ñ-Ñàëèõèí ", ò. 1, ññ. 165-166

 

------ -----------------------

 

3. Attack on an enemy, by means of ñàìîïîäðûâà in the automobile

 

Question: what rule (øàðèàòà) concerning the certificate(act) äæèõàäà, way

ñàìîïîäðûâà, such as a bookmark of explosive substances in the automobile and

Attack on enemy, when it(he) knows undoubtedly, that it(he) will die in

Result of this action?

 

The answer: Really, my opinion is, that it(he) is regarded as that,

Who has killed itself (suicide), for what it(he) will be punished in a hell, as is transferred(handed)

From words of the Prophet (world to it(him)):

 

" Really, the one who has killed (purposely), will be punished fire, in

Which it(he) will put up for ever ". Àëü-Áóõàðè, ¦ 5778, and Ìóñëèì, ¦ ¦ 109 and

110.

 

However, the one who íåîñâåäîìëåí both does not know, and assumes, that it(him)

The action was good and óãîäíûì Àëëàõó, then we hope, that Àëëàõ

Will forgive it(him) that it(he) has made from (ignorant) èäæòèõàäà, thus,

That I do not find any justification to it(him) today. Because this type

Suicides - is known and is widely distributed among the people, so

The man was obliged to ask the people of knowledge (scientists) about it, that

The correct way for him(it) was distinguished from error.

 

And from that surprises, - that these people kill, despite of

That Allah has forbidden it, having told:

 

"... Also do not kill itself. Really, Allah to you Ìèëîñåðä! ". Ñóðà

Àí-Íèñà, àÿò 29.

 

And many among them do not wish anything, except for ìåñòè to an enemy, any way,

õàëÿëü it (is legal) or õàðàì (çàïðåòíî). Therefore they only want

To satisfy the thirst ìåñòè (i.e. work not them âåðû).

 

We ask, that Allah áëàãîñëîâèë us by understanding in His(its) religion and

äåÿíèÿõ, which óãîäíû to it(him). Really, it(he) - above any thing is powerful.

 

Øåéõ Èáí ' Óñàéìèí, " Êàéôà íó'àëèäæ óàêè'óíà àëü-àëèì ", with. 119

 

------ -------------------------

 

 

4. Concerning the certificates(acts) of a terror made separate groups

 

About Äæàìà'àòó-ëü-Äæèõàä (letters. " A community äæèõàäà ") and cooperation with them

 

Question: That in the attitude(relation) Äæàìà'àòó-ëü-Äæèõàä (grouping, which

Takes part in òåðàêòàõ. Sits in London) and cooperation with them?

 

The answer:... (ìóñóëüìàíå) should not cooperate with them, and them(him,it) (äæèõàäèñòàì)

Is not necessary to give ñàëÿì (wish of the world, i.e. to not address to it(him,them) as to

ìóñóëüìàíàì). They should be cut off from dialogue, and the people should be

Are warned from their evil. As they - ôèòíà (ñìóòà, temptation) and âðåäíû

For muslim, and they - brothers satan!

 

Øåéõ Èáí of Bases, from àóäèîçàïèñè ¦ 11, written down in month of the storage - ëü-õèäææà 1408

ã.õ. (1987) in Àò-Òàâèéàòó-ëü-Èñëàìèéà

 

------ -------------------------------

 

5. Capture of planes and courts

 

Question: There are people, which grasp the plane or vessel, and do(make) it,

To render pressure on the country, which posesses this plane or

Vessel. Probably, they threaten to kill the passengers, and in some cases

Really kill some of them, while their requirements will not execute.

What judgement concerning such actions, as these actions

Horrify the passengers?

 

The answer: any country is obliged to ensure(supply) sufficient safety, that

To prevent possible(probable) capture (plane or vessel) these ìÿòåæíèêàìè.

Any country is obliged to ensure(supply) each airline with safety (on

To ground), which is sufficient to resist to any attacks

By aggressors; also, as she(it) should make complete survey (passengers)

Before landing(planting). Thus, they should not allow somebody to pass (on

Board), while they are not sure, that nobody has of the weapon, even if it

(Piece) of metal (áðóñîê or similar to it(him)). In addition to this,

Some gangsters compel the plane to deviate a route, so, if

(Among the command or passengers) there is someone, enough

Trained to overcome them, then the plans of the gangsters should be

Are broken.

 

There is no doubt, that the capture is a mistake, íåâåæåñòâîì and ëîæüþ. It is more

That, it - crime leaving for limits, inducing horror on

The passengers, and threat by him(it) that they are not imperous to execute, and Àëëàõ

Knows better.

 

Øåéõà Èáí Äæèáðèí, " Êàéôà íó'àëèäæ óàêè'óíà àëü-àëèì ", with. 113

 

------ ------------------------

 

6. Capture of planes and kidnapping(abduction) of the people

 

From that is known to everyone, who has the smallest particle sensible

Sense - that capture of the plane and kidnapping(abduction) of the people etc. - extremely

Great crimes all over the world. Their malicious consequences - far-reaching,

As - great harm and damage caused innocent, which all evil not

Can comprehend(overtake) any, except for Àëëàõà.

 

Also from that is known - that these crimes are not limited

By any especial country, besides other countries, any

By the certain group, besides other groups, faster they cover all

The world.

 

There is no doubt concerning evil of these crimes. Therefore on

Governments and on authoritative scientific, and others, besides them lays

Duty - to show great anxiety on these questions, and

To work in the greatest possible degree to stop it angrily.

 

Øåéõ Èáí of Bases, " Êàéôà íó'àëèäæ óàêè'óíà àëü-àëèì ", with. 108-109

 

 

 

[Hedley]

You are so fake, Valaya. you pretend to be one thing one day and another on another day. Are you a politician?

Originally posted by valaya:

If someone tries to shove something down another's throat (`Debate This!`), they can expect to be vomited on. Intentional provocation inspires reaction in kind. Then, of course, the usual cries of offensive, abusive, etc. ring out self-righteously. All this is always done in the name of loving service to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

We've been here before, on other forums, with the same individuals who seem adamantly locked in the past, while continuing to viciously lash out at others rather than face their own obvious shortcomings. The only solution, albeit temporary, remains avoidance. Perhaps all they have to teach us is self-control...though not by their own examples.

 

For those to whom Srila Prabhupada, as THEY understand him, continues to be their all-in-all and the sole personification of absolute truth, other forums are available. In fact, many of us here are not welcome there, so a certain `intolerance` might be expected on the part of some of us.

 

If so-called `Prabhupadanugas` actually were that, their fruits of devotion would be apparent to everyone. As for those who continue to identify themselves as initiated disciples after abandoning their vows... Give us a break, eh?

 

valaya RR

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

karthik_v: Exposing the holes in the other school of thought is one thing, but to denigrate the acarya of another bonafide school is different.

 

Satyaraj: Well your Prabhupada himself has employed so many examples of vitanda to establish the viewpoint of his sect. Just consult your Veda base and see how many hard criticism he has done to Ramakrishna, Sankara and Mayavada, Buddhism, and so on.

 

We cannot consider his tactics as improper, as it is a well known tactics on pravadatam. He even has strongly criticized his own Godbrothers, Babajis and other Gaudiyas. At the end he has asked them for their pardon, but they could not even felt themselves offended as they knew pravadatam’s tactics very well.

 

Even Krsnadas has strongly criticized Vallabhacarya, Kesava Kashimir and other acaryas from another bona fide schools to establish his theology. Bhaktivinoda has done the same. And we can find countless examples of this tactics among other sanatana-dharma preceptors, theologians and mystics.

 

karthik_v: If there are many bonafide schools, such as Gaudiya Vaishnava, Sri Vaishnava, Advaita et al. then each preceptor should have realized the supreme in varying degrees or moods. For example, a Gaudiya vaishnava acarya might have attained personal realization of Krishna while an advaita guru might have had brahman realizaion.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, you are quite right in that point. Even Jesus has stated that at his Father abode there are many rooms. Muktas are spreading their own satya-sankalpa feelings and their own worlds into the samvyoma of their hearts. These are absolute and non-dual feelings and worlds, but immature jivas like us, who are dualistic and far away from the absolute understanding, may find objections in mukta’s satya-sankalpas. This is only an irrelevant absurd and nothing else, but it creates stages at one’s personal search for Hari.

 

karthik_v: Now, can the followers of either school of thought denigrate the preceptor of the other? Would that not be sectarian? Would that not derail any philosophical debate and just result in clash of egos? Would it not sabotage the very spiritual advancement that we are seeking?

 

Satyaraj: Again, I guess you should ask these questions to your Prabhupada. Didn’t he create a sect as many others? Can’t you observe these symptoms of sabotage of the very spiritual advancement into your own sect?

 

 

 

[valaya]

karthik_v: Now, can the followers of either school of thought denigrate the preceptor of the other? Would that not be sectarian? Would that not derail any philosophical debate and just result in clash of egos? Would it not sabotage the very spiritual advancement that we are seeking?

 

Satyaraj: Again, I guess you should ask these questions to your Prabhupada. Didn’t he create a sect as many others? Can’t you observe these symptoms of sabotage of the very spiritual advancement into your own sect?

 

Certainly an interesting obsevation, Satyaraja prabhu, and a seemingly logical conclusion. Yet who would dare to `debate` when they risk total ostracizing and vehement accusations of offensive anti-Prabhupada/Gaudiya-math, vaisnava aparadha, etc. etc.?

 

The only solution I see is a personal one which is not to align myself with any guru, group or guru-groupies. Of course that severely limits any further spiritual advancement I might make in this lifetime and I end up being criticized anyway.

 

Nor can I deny the effect Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami has had on myself and so many others. Though some may believe otherwise, I do give all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Then again, in the end it all depends on the Divine Grace of God Himself/Herself and their Holy Names, doesn't it? Haribol!

 

valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Tarun]

At Timessquare I street chant with a mixture of Rtvik, Officiating Acarya & Gaur-Govinda Mhrj zisyas.

In Alachua I street chant with ISKCON devotees.

In Miami I street chant with VRNDA &/or ISKCON devotees.

I'm criticized for associating with each by another.

By whom? By those who don't street chant themselves.

When they decide to street chant I'll join them too.

Should I hold my breath?

 

 

[JRdd]

I'm with you there, Tarun. I'll chant with anyone. At Radhastami there was a wonderful mix. But you say the nonchanters who criticise, and not the chanters against the other groups? Now that would surprise me, for sectarianism may occur in any group. I find it hard to believe you about this. I think you may be making sweeping or careless statements. But I do like reading your harinam experiences.

 

Oh and to anyone else, who believes that loyalty to, and special love for, one's guru is necessarily an exclusive mentality certainly understands very little about the disciple guru relationship, and reveals not only his impersonalistic tenedencies, but also reveals his great foolishness whenever he opens his mouth to conjecture about that which he knows not. Such impersonalistic charlatans, or fakes, reek of envy, and have no sense of respect for the devotees or the acharyas. They are unable to accept authority, and they tread dangerous ground and will descend even deeper into misery by their own mentality. He who rebels most against being called an offendeer is often the greatest offendeer of all. That's why it makes him so angry and ill-tempered and sour ao much of the time. And they wonder why they have no real friends. Well, I just found another person whose useless posts I will scroll on by without reading.

 

JR

[melvin]

I`m not a muslim, but all I know

is that before the Spaniards came

to our shores on March 1521, the

island Sugbu(Cebu, Philippines)

were I was born was ruled by Ra-

jah Humabon whom historians be-

lieved to be a pagan because he

and his people worshipped devatas

and anitos, who believed in God,

Bathala. According to Manolo Vano,

a Cebuano historian, Bathala ac-

tually is made of two words. Bata

which meant a Child and Ala-God.

In other words, before the Spa-

niards came with their crucifixes

and swords, we were already wor-

shipping God named Bathala,

the ChildGod whom we know today

as the Senyor Santo Ninyo- Cebu`s

Patron Saint enshrined at the Ba-

silica del Sto. Nino de Cebu.

I absolutely believe that the Holy

Child is no other than Sri Govinda

Krishna Himself in His saccidanand

arcavigraha form.

That`s how I came to know Allah in

His form as the Holy Child(Govinda

Krishna).

[JRdd]

Lifted this morning from another group:

 

"...To sum, no bona fide devotee will ever harass another devotee who is telling people to worship his guru, this is NEVER DONE. It is FORBIDDEN to harass a preacher who is

glorifying his guru, this is DEMONIAC. If we study the pastimes of Lord Krishna or Chaitanya et al, no one ever harassed the devotees who glorified their pure gurus and teachers. And if they did, they were classed as demons. hope this helps, ys XXXXX"