Debate this!

[Tarun]

JRdd: There ae several bhaktas in New Jersey/New York who won't come out for Timessquare chanting because they don't agree philosophically, especially with Rtvikism.

They say things to me I wouldn't dare type & post here.

I reply, "Then let's do a separate HarinAm elsewhere."

So far, no dice. "Maybe in future." Meanwhile...

[Janus]

People are people, and the emotional impetus that directs one to become a fundamentalist Moslem, or a fundamentalist Iskcon supporter, Rtvik, etc., may be the same, an emotional need for certitude rather than a philosophical justification, or search for knowledge. To such a "true" believer any suggestion that challenges his or her blind faith position of certitude is met with anger, aggression, denunciation, etc., and any proofs or evidences that might be offered to suggest that they are not in the possession of all of the facts required to make such comprehensive appraisals of others beliefs are treated as if they are cooked, contrived or imagined. You think wrongly if you think that you can reason with them. Reason is not what motivates them. The emotional impetus that occaisions most people to accept a religion is a fear response. Once they accept a blind faith they never have to fear again. The buried doubts that such true believers have make them very uncomfortable should they even attempt to be open minded.

 

[Janus]

>>>Satyaraj: Again, I guess you should ask these questions to your Prabhupada. Didn’t he create a sect as many others?<<<

 

No, Srila Prabhupada was under the complete control of Sri Krsna, he was a mahajana, presenting according to time, place and capacity. It may appear by mundane appraisal that Srila Prabhupada created a sect known as ISKCON, that he could not even discern the capacity and capabilities of his appointees for position in that organization, that he was filled with imperfections, that he was a well meaning but poorly informed and supersticious and paranoid old man caught up in a belief system that no one with more than a half of an inch of forhead could take seriously, so it may appear to mundane appraisal, but Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance. In a dancing contest I do believe that even Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would be hard put to keep up with Srila Prabhupada. Now we wait only for the touch of fire to act up.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Daer Janus:

 

St Paul was under the complete control of God, he was a mahajana, presenting according to time, place and capacity.

 

It may appear by mundane appraisal that St Paul created a sect known as Catholic Church, that he could not even discern the capacity and capabilities of his appointees for position in that organization, that he was filled with imperfections, that he was a well meaning but poorly informed and supersticious and paranoid old man caught up in a belief system that no one with more than a half of an inch of forhead could take seriously, so it may appear to mundane appraisal, but St Paul is an eternally liberated soul who presented God consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of God in response to his pleas to make him dance.

 

[shvu]

 

In a dancing contest I do believe that even Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would be hard put to keep up with Srila Prabhupada.

?

 

In a dancing contest, I do believe both Chaitanya & Prabhupada would find it hard to keep up with Michael Jackson.

 

Disclaimer: No sarcasm here, this is my frank opinion. Just to show, anyone can say anything and there usually is no logic behind such statements.

 

Cheers

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Lifted this morning from another group:

 

"...To sum, no bona fide devotee will ever harass another devotee who is telling people to worship his guru, this is NEVER DONE. It is FORBIDDEN to harass a preacher who is

glorifying his guru, this is DEMONIAC. If we study the pastimes of Lord Krishna or Chaitanya et al, no one ever harassed the devotees who glorified their pure gurus and teachers. And if they did, they were classed as demons. hope this helps, ys XXXXX"

 

This would include, of course, Jayasriradhey glorifying Sri Kripalu Maharaja...or is she and anyone else that doesn't agree with you simply demonic, so they just don't count?

 

valaya RR

 

 

[Caitanyachandra]

but Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Caitanyachandra (edited 10-12-2001).]

[Caitanyachandra]

Zecondly, In a dancing contest I do believe that even Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would be hard put to keep up with Srila Prabhupada. Now we wait only for the touch of fire to act up.

 

[This message has been edited by Caitanyachandra (edited 10-12-2001).]

[jijaji]

What a totally dumb invitation (DEBATE THIS) in the 1st place..!

Who would want to come..? Nice trapping method for putting the unbelievers in place..

And when some do come and dissagree they are verbally stoned as DEMONS.

 

MIDDLE AGES MYOPIC MINDSET!

 

BEWARE...

 

 

 

------------------

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 10-12-2001).]

[gopal]

Originally posted by Hedley:

You are so fake, Valaya. you pretend to be one thing one day and another on another day. Are you a politician?

I noticed this offender changed his originaly offending message some days ago so there is no concrete evidence left here. But those of us who have read enough of his messages know how he really feels about Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. But what is the use to try and talk to a dishonest person.

 

 

[gopal]

You know what they say about birds of a feather? Just be aware if you value your creeper. Cautioning others against offenders is not at all contrary to scriptural injunctions.

[Janus]

but Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance.

--

 

That is where you are wrong. I do not agree to ISKCON being a transcendental body of a liberated soul. I do not believe he was an eternally liberated soul who revealed Gaudiya Vaisnavism to the ignorant West.

 

That is where you are misunderstanding, I did not say that ISKCON was a transcendental body, only that Srila Prabhupada, under Sri Krsna's direction presented Krsna consciousness perfectly, according to time, place and capacity. You are consideringing that this implies that ISKCON would be perfect, not at all.

As far as your consideration that Srila Prabhupada was not liberated, you are speculating, you "do not believe", but you do not know. The origin of your misconception is your observance that Srila Prabhupada behaved like an ordinary man and that he made what were apparently mistakes, etc.. You have some misconception that the loiberated soul is never deluded, and he isn't, but upon the middle platform he appears to be deluded, or delusional, and that he is. The difference is that the spell that a liberated soul is under is that of Krsna's yogamaya, not of Maya. Also the liberated soul upon the middle platform is not aware that he is liberated, this is necessary for presentation, as on the battlefield of Kuruksetra Arjuna, an eternally liberated sould was put into delusion so that the Gita could be spoken for our benefit. We are cautioned repeatedly in the shastra against viewing the Guru with our mundane appraisal. We are cautioned repeatedly because it is our tendency to find fault and apparent faults are always there for our mind to sieze upon. Therefore when we see that the Guru is not always straightforward, that he is even sometimes inclined to accept laxsmi from thieves, etc., we find fault, for he is not then "good" in our eyes, he is not perfect in our esteem.

According to time, place and capacity Srila Prabhupada presented Krsna conscious perfectly, whether we recieved it perfectly, you or I or Iskcon, is another matter. "The fault dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves."

"Belief" is a position of blind faith ignorance, you are welcome to your beliefs but you should challenge them for your own satisfaction at least, for what satisfaction can you find by finding fault with Srila Prabhupada or any other pure devotee of Krsna?

I know that Srila Prabhupada was liberated, I do not "believe". I know because I passed my test and because he awarded me with a degree of liberation and my relationship with him was upon a different level. I have direct cognition that I am eternal, that I am spirit soul, I do not believe, I know.

Anyone can achieve this, and beyond, it is not that we are required to practice our faith in blind faith ignorance continually.

You can never observe the perfection of a pure devotee from a non-liberated position, just some hint of it. But look for those hints and follow them, you will be surprised at the position that they can lead you to.

Hari bol

 

[Janus]

>>>St Paul was under the complete control of God, he was a mahajana, presenting according to time, place and capacity.<<<

 

No, St Paul was not liberated, how many Chritians through employing the model that he offered even attain to a position of tangible spiritual experience while they live? The paradigm, or working model that Srila Prabhupada gave to us gives us glimpses and other tangible experience of the divine within a short time and can provide liberation, while we live within just months of its commencement. A blind person is blind whether he is looking at an apple or an elephant. Through his lack of vision he cannot tell the difference.

[gopal]

Great message Janus! However methinks we flog a dead horse and leaving is better as one need not disturb any minds with truth for fear of inviting more offense. Those who have not or will not taste are without a hope of understanding.

[valaya]

Originally posted by gopal:

I noticed this offender changed his originaly offending message some days ago so there is no concrete evidence left here. But those of us who have read enough of his messages know how he really feels about Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. But what is the use to try and talk to a dishonest person.

 

Hedley

Junior Member

 

posted 10-06-2001 12:35 PM    

       

You are so fake, Valaya. you pretend to be one thing one day and another on another day. Are you a politician?

___________________

 

Don't know if this refers to me or not, but I don't change previous posts to obscure their original message. They are also intended for the ultimate benefit of all, not simply a stream of meaningless insults aimed solely at inflicting personal pain. Truth may hurt at times, but causing hurt should not be misconstrued as automatically imparting truth...

 

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

[gopal]

I admit, I have no tolerance for this hypocrisy:

 

Originally posted by valaya:

No criticism was ever intended towards His Divine Grace Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, to whom I personally credit any realizations I may have acquired and whom I consider fully surrendered to Sri Sri Radha-Krsna at all times.valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

Now contrast that statement with this (vlaya aka amanpeter lest anyone forgets)

 

Originally posted by amanpeter:

This and my previous quote from Srila Prabhupada are meant solely as a contribution to the philosophical discussion here. Neither is an expression of my own personal belief system. That revolves only around Srimati Radharani as the personification and source of Divine Grace. My conclusions are based on personal direct experience and merely confirmed by scripture.

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by gopal:

I admit, I have no tolerance for this hypocrisy:

 

What in thunder...?

 

ihlm valaya RR

 

 

[gopal]

Another from Valaya who says everything he knows is from Prabhupada:

 

"No kidding! Wait'll you hear who gave me the books--Siddheshvari Didi, one of Sri Kripalu Maharaja's main travelling sanyasi preachers in North America! Guess I'm a goner for sure!!!"

 

And more about Kripalu the known impersonalist whose books valay reads. Please note impersonalist isn't an insult. Its a fact. And Prabhupada is not an impersonalist who teaches impersonalism so what is this socalled learning?..

 

"They're only into their guru--BIGTIME! That's why she no longer wanted the books. Kripalu himself, however, accepts many saints and has no parampara. She and another of his woman preachers, one of the first, are based here in Toronto. I know both quite well, but do not associate with his followers or attend their satsangs, except sometimes on special occasions. Might go on Radhastami as we share similar feelings about Swamini Kisori and they appreciate my attachment to Her. Many former ISKCONites have joined them, because they found what they were missing there, sad to say."

 

The last sentence is the punchline. This is how much Valaya believes in the teachings of Prabhupada. According to him Prabhupada left soemthing out.

 

[gopal]

Originally posted by valaya:

___________________

 

Don't know if this refers to me or not, but I don't change previous posts to obscure their original message. valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

Constrast that with this:

 

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Is it not possible for us to erase our posts, like on VNN?

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 05-25-2001).]

 

 

[recruit]

Originally posted by jijaji:

What a totally dumb invitation (DEBATE THIS) in the 1st place..!

Who would want to come..? Nice trapping method for putting the unbelievers in place..

And when some do come and dissagree they are verbally stoned as DEMONS.

 

MIDDLE AGES MYOPIC MINDSET!

 

BEWARE...

 

 

 

 

Invitation was to debate, not attack. What I've seen is a string of attacks by ignorant fools who hate the premis of this debate, but can't defeat it, all defeated by a variety of posters who are speaking according to guru shastra and sadhu. According to the rules of debate, this means that the original premise is still axiomatic until defeated, and all defeated by it, ie. those not able to defeat it, must change and accept it or reveal themselves as the anti-guru/shastra/sadhu snakes they are.

 

Now come on all you guys, admit that you're wrong and just attacking the poster and start apologizing to the ones you attack for representing their spiritual master! Quickly, end this animosity! The time has come for universal sankirtana! The world needs us!

 

Harinam sankirtan ki jaya!

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

 

Let Freedom Ring!

In Krsna We Trust!

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by gopal:

Sorry you seem to have such an obviously limited vision of God and guru. The trouble you've gone to searching archives so extensively just to supposedly `expose` little ole me is really flattering in some strangely convoluted way. Needless to say, you continue misinterpreting whatever I say or have said. However, so long as it keeps you busy and amusing yourselves...

 

ihlm valaya RR

 

 

[gopal]

Good meassage there. Now how is this for accepting Prabhupad? Another from mr confused.

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by amanpeter:

Just for the record, prabhu, he is NOT my guru nor do I accept any other jiva soul, to the exclusion of others, in that role. My guru/God is Sri Radha ONLY, though I try to see Her in ALL others. I understand how important diksa and parampara are to you, but I believe as Divine Grace personified, in fact it's very source, She is beyond all that and nothing is impossible for Her. All necessary arrangements will be made in this or some future lifetime. At this point, thanks in no small part to my involvement with ISKCON, I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, let alone commit myself to anyone eternally but Her.

 

 

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Janus:

People are people, and the emotional impetus that directs one to become a fundamentalist Moslem, or a fundamentalist Iskcon supporter, Rtvik, etc., may be the same, an emotional need for certitude rather than a philosophical justification, or search for knowledge. To such a "true" believer any suggestion that challenges his or her blind faith position of certitude is met with anger, aggression, denunciation, etc., and any proofs or evidences that might be offered to suggest that they are not in the possession of all of the facts required to make such comprehensive appraisals of others beliefs are treated as if they are cooked, contrived or imagined. You think wrongly if you think that you can reason with them. Reason is not what motivates them. The emotional impetus that occaisions most people to accept a religion is a fear response. Once they accept a blind faith they never have to fear again. The buried doubts that such true believers have make them very uncomfortable should they even attempt to be open minded.

 

Truer words were never spoken! Such wilfully ignorant, myopic individuals should perhaps avoid challenging others in public forums by prefacing their statements with "Debate This!", when only comforting affirmations are desired in response. Nor should those who dare to attempt rational discussion be branded as `demons`.

 

To clarify once again, my criticism is of obviously unrealized so-called `followers` and self-styled `Gaudiya-vaisnava devotees` who confuse cheap words of glorification with actual surrender to Sri Guru and Gauranga; particularly those with a `we vs. them` exclusive mentality that attempt to force their will upon others, wherever and whenever without any restrictions whatsoever.

 

No criticism was ever intended towards His Divine Grace Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, to whom I personally credit any realizations I may have acquired and whom I consider fully surrendered to Sri Sri Radha-Krsna at all times.

 

Had my post not applied to anyone here, it would not have elicited such vehement vitriolic defensiveness, comparable to that of a cornered little animal, from the usual quarters. While adamantly criticizing offensiveness to their own guru and themselves, they have no reservations when it it comes to lashing out offensively at other supposedly lesser beings often deemed unworthy of life itself, let alone His Divine Grace as THEY understand him to be...

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

[JRdd]

I see that some here sacrifice their intelligence in preference for being disagreeable. My imperfect senses did not scroll past in time to miss such tiring post. However, I will spell if out again, even though I think the devotee I quoted said it quite clearly. No where did he or I say that someone is demonic for disagreeing. If the rooster is demonic then that would be, according to these shastric definitions (which I myself have no argument with), due to her commiting the acts described within that post: that is: to villify the saintly acharyas.

 

End of matter, this was already boring months ago, I am not responsible for what is written in the shastras nor for anyone's envious attitudes. However, it is my responsibility to uphold the dignity of the Truth and the true guardians of the Truth. "True" guardians (and note the plural; no one is being exclusive here) being the keywords here.

[valaya]

Originally posted by gopal:

Good meassage there. Now how is this for accepting Prabhupad? Another from mr confused.

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by amanpeter:

Just for the record, prabhu, he is NOT my guru nor do I accept any other jiva soul, to the exclusion of others, in that role. My guru/God is Sri Radha ONLY, though I try to see Her in ALL others. I understand how important diksa and parampara are to you, but I believe as Divine Grace personified, in fact it's very source, She is beyond all that and nothing is impossible for Her. All necessary arrangements will be made in this or some future lifetime. At this point, thanks in no small part to my involvement with ISKCON, I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, let alone commit myself to anyone eternally but Her.

 

 

 

 

'thanks in no small part to my involvement within iskcon I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, etc?'

 

This is to be pitied but point is this is from one who claims to respect Prabhupada. Point is not to disturb needlessly but this ignorance has to be shown.