Debate this!

[Janus]

What a totally dumb invitation (DEBATE THIS) in the 1st place..!

Who would want to come..? Nice trapping method for putting the unbelievers in place..

And when some do come and dissagree they are verbally stoned as DEMONS.

MIDDLE AGES MYOPIC MINDSET!

 

BEWARE

 

Jijaji scratches his head, mystified as to why anyone would post in such a manner. People do not in general challenge their beliefs. This is not in accordance with Vaisnava philosophy which requires that we argue strongly against our postulates, and prove them, but it is in accordance with our conditioning. Nietche observed that people do not want challenging questions, that they want comforting explanations instead. Bill Cosby the famous Afro-American comedian perhaps said it better. Commenting upon the same defect, the product again of our conditioning and conditioned defects; he said that parents aren't interested in justice, that they just want quiet.

In the Bhagavad Gita it mentions the actual four types of persons that actually approach Krsna, amonst which are the distressed. Quite a few of us were responding to an emotional impetus rather than a pholosophical justification, or a search for truth when we became devotees. We accepted, believing blindly and never challenging our beliefs, even though to do so required that we suspend reason, and accept what we are conditioned to regard as completely preposterous, like four headed Lord Bhrama, swan aeroplanes, devas and demons going into battle astride giant ducks and rabbits, elephants in Hell etc., There was a child like innocence about us then and a complete bewilderment. We toOk a leap of faith, a big one, and we depended upon Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to catch us. That they did not live up to our childish expectations, that the world did not become Krsna Conscious overnight as we all expected it to, and that the movement turned into a theater for abuse has provoked many to become criticizing rather than critical.

The ladies post in question is an emotional respose to the crticisms that are coming in from many directions against Srila Prabhupada, and it is thus not articulated very well. Were it then she would have defined her terminology a little better, what for instance she meant by her claim that Srila Prabhupada deseminated transcendental truths, and she would have backed up her assertions with instances and proofs. As it stands I agree with you that to the average persons appraisal that it is just bewilderning and certainly not an invite that most people would even know how to respond to, let alone feel comfortable with. An open invitation to come and fight.

Playing the devils advocate in this instance and challenging her claims which are far to ambiguous, poorly defined to respond to, might, as you say; have the effect of demonizing the person doing so to the blind faith believers who are not very familiar with the Krsna conscious method of establishing the absolute truth, which again requires strong arguements against ones own postulate before evidence is even presented. One could start by argueing that ISKCOM evidences clearly that Srila Prabhupada was unable to desiminate any transcendental truths to his closest disciples at least and that the movement as it is right now is continueing evidence of that failure may be included as further arguement against her position.

Once a person accepts blindly they do not ever have to trouble themselves again about the things that occaisioned the emotional impetus that propelled them to blind faith certitude. Blind faith certitude fulfills an emotional need. Ignorance is bliss.

When I first went into a Krsna temple I required a question to be answered by the ultimate authority of your tradition, before I even sat down and accepted prasadam. The answer to that question was given me directly from the pages of Bhagavad Gita in the manner employed in Bibliomancy, which is asking a question and then opening a Bible to a random page and considering the first thing that you read to be that questions answer. That answer was that Lord Krsna didn't give a damn as to what happened to your material body. Fresh back from Viet Nam I sat down, took prasadam and listened. I never had the expectations that the world would become Krsna conscious over night or that any of Srila Prabhupadas disciples, or at least those around me were liberated, and I never expected the movement to provide me with an old age pension. I expected instead just what has happened, but I expect also more. All isn't darkest yet, but their will be a beautiful dawn.

The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada, she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain.

Hari bol

 

[recruit]

Originally posted by Janus:

...We toOk a leap of faith, a big one, and we depended upon Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to catch us. That they did not live up to our childish expectations, that the world did not become Krsna Conscious overnight as we all expected it to, and that the movement turned into a theater for abuse has provoked many to become criticizing rather than critical.

The ladies post in question is an emotional respose to the crticisms that are coming in from many directions against Srila Prabhupada, and it is thus not articulated very well. ... The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada, she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain.

Hari bol

I quite enjoyed your posts till this one, which does seem a bit patronizing to me, and containing presumptions. I also had no difficulty with the original topic post, didn't find it ambiguous or lacking. I also saw that as far as making people uncomfortable, well, I perceive it as seeing what crawling out from the rocks. I think some of us owe 'the lady in question' an apology.

 

In Krsna We Trust!

[Janus]

>>>Great message Janus! However methinks we flog a dead horse and leaving is better as one need not disturb any minds with truth for fear of inviting more offense. Those who have not or will not taste are without a hope of understanding.<<<

 

Hope springs eternal.

Consciousness is not a passive receptor but an active creator, busy every moment in projecting the art work that is an individualized and hypnotically dreamed of as being the "Real Universe." One f the four conditioned souls defects, the tendency to accept our delusional perspective as the reality of ourselves, rather than a quickly dissapearing opportuinity to gain the immeasureable happiness of life with Krsna in Goloka Vrndavan.

Because we are in actuality units of perfection there is always the desire to make ourselves, out material bodies, situations, false egos; perfect and eternal but when we are situated in material consciousness that applications tends us towards an attempt at perfecting that which is not even worthy of sorrow, let alone an of the futile attempt to establish it as our actual selves in place of our far more glorious actual natures.

None the less until the exact moment of liberated consciousness in which we experience ourselves as we actually, are we are for all intents and purposes only our own false egos for we have no other identity that we are awake to.

We busy about trying to perfect "ourslves" and a good deal of this endeavor goes into acquisition and control.

Human beings acting in animal consciousness are territorial, unlike most animals though they have a unique capacity to learn neurosemantic systems (codes:languages). It thus becomes possible for these unique animals to "own" (or think they "own", or control) symbolic territories as well as physical territories. These symbolic territories are usually called "ideologies" or "belief systems."

Human beings on the animal platform battle not only over physical territories but over these "mental" or neurosemantic territories.

Actual Krsna consciousness is beyond material acquisition which is why Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said that a devotee and a non-devotee can say the exact same thing but that what the devotee says is always true while that which the non-devotee says is never true, but we do not understand this and think thusly that we can acquire Krsna consciousness by force of arms or by force of our mentalities, by winning arguements with others.

It is not however "He who talks the best Krsna consciousness wins", but is rather than the words emanating from the lips of a pure devotee are a condensed stream of Krsna consciousness, spiritual substance, and are transformative, like fire.

Hear we have only written words, but they to can be transformative to an extent, whether or not one at the time prefers or prefers to accept what they are reading or not. That is why it is forbidden to read Sankaracharyas commentaries, whether one is in the mood to accept them or not. "What I say three times is true." We don't give up hope so easily. There are no dead horses here, just sleeping souls and it is the will of Sri Caitanya that they should awaken. We have all the inertia of the universe behind us Prabhu, this Kali Yuga is null and void, and its only a matter of time and Lord Nityanandas mercy is upon our heads...they will eventually hear.

 

[valaya]

Thank you, Janus prabhu, for your continuing attention to this thread. As I see it, those who would make Srila Prabhupada the all-in-all actually restrict him in their attempt to define/confine His Divine Grace. They seem to believe he is available only to his initiated disciples or through his books, ISKCON, etc. Of course, they cannot imagine the extent of such a great acharya's transcendental activities, but who can?

 

My past, present and future personal relationship with Prabhupada as Sri Guru and with Srimati Radharani as Swamini-Kishori is exactly that-- personal. It's not that others can come between us whatever they may believe their position/role to be. Nor is anyone able to forcibly squeeze my hard-won realizations from the last 30 years out of me, that were painfully obtained through His Divine Grace as the transparent via media.

 

Although the desire to share with all is still strong, I'm realizing more and more how few are actually able to appreciate, let alone reciprocate. Wilful ignorance causes intentional misunderstandings and even politically motivated misinformation. This, in my humble opinion, is the real offense and abuse.

 

Those who wish to glorify must themselves become glorious. "By their fruits you shall know them!" One can't help wondering what Srila Prabhupada must think of some of his `fruits`...in fact, it may very well have been the actions of his initiated `disciples`, particularly those who abandoned their vows, that resulted in his premature departure from this world.

 

valaya RR

 

 

Originally posted by Janus:

>>>Great message Janus! However methinks we flog a dead horse and leaving is better as one need not disturb any minds with truth for fear of inviting more offense. Those who have not or will not taste are without a hope of understanding.<<<

 

Hope springs eternal.

Consciousness is not a passive receptor but an active creator, busy every moment in projecting the art work that is an individualized and hypnotically dreamed of as being the "Real Universe." One f the four conditioned souls defects, the tendency to accept our delusional perspective as the reality of ourselves, rather than a quickly dissapearing opportuinity to gain the immeasureable happiness of life with Krsna in Goloka Vrndavan.

Because we are in actuality units of perfection there is always the desire to make ourselves, out material bodies, situations, false egos; perfect and eternal but when we are situated in material consciousness that applications tends us towards an attempt at perfecting that which is not even worthy of sorrow, let alone an of the futile attempt to establish it as our actual selves in place of our far more glorious actual natures.

None the less until the exact moment of liberated consciousness in which we experience ourselves as we actually, are we are for all intents and purposes only our own false egos for we have no other identity that we are awake to.

We busy about trying to perfect "ourslves" and a good deal of this endeavor goes into acquisition and control.

Human beings acting in animal consciousness are territorial, unlike most animals though they have a unique capacity to learn neurosemantic systems (codes:languages). It thus becomes possible for these unique animals to "own" (or think they "own", or control) symbolic territories as well as physical territories. These symbolic territories are usually called "ideologies" or "belief systems."

Human beings on the animal platform battle not only over physical territories but over these "mental" or neurosemantic territories.

Actual Krsna consciousness is beyond material acquisition which is why Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said that a devotee and a non-devotee can say the exact same thing but that what the devotee says is always true while that which the non-devotee says is never true, but we do not understand this and think thusly that we can acquire Krsna consciousness by force of arms or by force of our mentalities, by winning arguements with others.

It is not however "He who talks the best Krsna consciousness wins", but is rather than the words emanating from the lips of a pure devotee are a condensed stream of Krsna consciousness, spiritual substance, and are transformative, like fire.

Hear we have only written words, but they to can be transformative to an extent, whether or not one at the time prefers or prefers to accept what they are reading or not. That is why it is forbidden to read Sankaracharyas commentaries, whether one is in the mood to accept them or not. "What I say three times is true." We don't give up hope so easily. There are no dead horses here, just sleeping souls and it is the will of Sri Caitanya that they should awaken. We have all the inertia of the universe behind us Prabhu, this Kali Yuga is null and void, and its only a matter of time and Lord Nityanandas mercy is upon our heads...they will eventually hear.

 

[Janus]

 

Dear Valaya

I do not much care about the impression that people have of me personally, or of what they think of what I think, unless they are friends, or unless I like them, in which case I care about them and what they think.

I have no time for the rest, and if you want my advice then neither should you, unless you are in the mood to accept them as some type of guru. You can learn something from almost anyone, you can learn about them and you can learn about yourself, and you can use that information by adding it to your general store of knowledge to help yourself, to aide you upon your own personal path of perfection. If detachment is difficult for you (as it is for me), then you should accept only what you can handle and limit yourself to open and honest exchanges with like minded individuals for whom you feel some natural sympathy and affection. You could possibly feel that for everyone, but not if you feel challenged by them to defend yourself from their criticisms.

When someone finds fault with me I have two ways that I can look at it. If they are in actuality finding a fault that is there I can go "OW!" and just admit to it and accept the consequences, fix myself and move on from there or I can be dishonest and attempt to defend myself against what? Information, which though painful at first can actually benifit me in the long run.

The importance of having a living guru, or one thing of importance, is that a living guru can call me on the carpet for my crap, can give me a swift kick in the butt when the boot is required. This is why a lot of people, not necessarily devotees, but members of other spiritual traditions prefer to have their guru's distant or dead. It is the cheating propensity. It is possible to rely on what we, in my tradition refer to as "Inner World Contacts", which I myself do to some extent, but I am only imagining things when I think that I am above recieving important instructions from my day to day interpersonal relationships and life experiences.

Srila Prabhupadas mercy is of course not limited to his nominal initiates, but is available to anyone who follows his instructions and seeks of him understanding. As to the "oathbrakers", I am not really that critical of them as I do not consider that most were attained to the realization of what taking such oaths meant, or to the point of conviction that they could actually with whole heartedness take them. For persons not to keep up their owns and still maintain that Srila Prabhupadas mercy is limited only to them and that you can recieve it only through them is of course nonsense.

Thank you, Janus prabhu, for your continuing attention to this thread. As I see it, those who would make Srila Prabhupada the all-in-all actually restrict him in their attempt to define/confine His Divine Grace. They seem to believe he is available only to his initiated disciples or through his books, ISKCON, etc. Of course, they cannot imagine the extent of such a great acharya's transcendental activities, but who can?

My past, present and future personal relationship with Prabhupada as Sri Guru and with Srimati Radharani as Swamini-Kishori is exactly that-- personal. It's not that others can come between us whatever they may believe their position/role to be. Nor is anyone able to forcibly squeeze my hard-won realizations from the last 30 years out of me, that were painfully obtained through His Divine Grace as the transparent via media.

 

Although the desire to share with all is still strong, I'm realizing more and more how few are actually able to appreciate, let alone reciprocate. Wilful ignorance causes intentional misunderstandings and even politically motivated misinformation. This, in my humble opinion, is the real offense and abuse.

 

Those who wish to glorify must themselves become glorious. "By their fruits you shall know them!" One can't help wondering what Srila Prabhupada must think of some of his `fruits`...in fact, it may very well have been the actions of his initiated `disciples`, particularly those who abandoned their vows, that resulted in his premature departure from this world.

 

 

[JRdd]

This is the post that brought so many protests and hullabaloo. Honestly.

 

 

Originally posted by M-dd:

Sirla Prabhupada brought Krsna to the western world, making His Holy Name familiar in every town and village. The Hare Krsna's became household knowledge everywhere, due to his efforts and the extending efforts of his followers. In fact, Harinam Sankirtan appears in numerous Hollywood movies as part of our culture, solely due to the efforts of Srila Prabhupada. Thus he is qualified as world acarya, proven by this external manifestation of Lord Caitanya's empowerment, and any who follow in his wake can be understood to be exhaulted to the degree they revere and emulate his passtimes and follow his footsteps. Thus, those who speak against him and his transcendental explainations and conclusions, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to minimize his great unrivalled transcendental feet, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to cloud the Absolute Truth he disseminated, they are the sectarean ones. They are the envious ones. They are the ones who CANNOT deliver transcendental knowledge of Krsna, or the potency of His Holy Name.

 

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-04-2001).]

 

[JRdd]

P.S. This could easily have become a very nectarean thread, judging from this first post, with its smilie. Some may be taking themselves too seriously. And not taking Srila Prabhu[ada seriously enough.

 

For sublime pastimes of Srila Prabhupada with one of his early disciples, go here:

 

http://www.iskcon.net/govinda/

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

[M-dd]

Janus>>... Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance.

...

I did not say that ISKCON was a transcendental body, only that Srila Prabhupada, under Sri Krsna's direction presented Krsna consciousness perfectly, according to time, place and capacity.

... the loiberated soul is never deluded, ... but upon the middle platform he appears to be deluded, or delusional... The difference is that the spell that a liberated soul is under is that of Krsna's yogamaya, not of Maya. Also the liberated soul upon the middle platform is not aware that he is liberated, this is necessary for presentation, as on the battlefield of Kuruksetra Arjuna, an eternally liberated sould was put into delusion so that the Gita could be spoken for our benefit. We are cautioned repeatedly in the shastra against viewing the Guru with our mundane appraisal. We are cautioned repeatedly because it is our tendency to find fault and apparent faults are always there for our mind to sieze upon. ...

According to time, place and capacity Srila Prabhupada presented Krsna conscious perfectly, whether we recieved it perfectly, you or I or Iskcon, is another matter. "The fault dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves."

"Belief" is a position of blind faith ignorance, ...

I know that Srila Prabhupada was liberated, I do not "believe". I know because I passed my test and because he awarded me with a degree of liberation and my relationship with him was upon a different level. I have direct cognition that I am eternal, that I am spirit soul, I do not believe, I know.

Anyone can achieve this, and beyond...

 

I also know that all these statements about His Divine Grace are true. I know, not believe. Yet due to some dislike on your part for my faulty wording, you have concluded otherwise. I also know that Srila Prabhupada has been pleased with me, and has awarded me with pure devotional service. The plug is out of the fan, maybe the blades still go around a bit, but there is no doubt the result is there and only time separates. Why do you think otherwise? Why do you think that your glorification of Srila Prabhupada is based in realization and mine in blind faith? Just because of what some of the fools here say? Or is it your own foolish pride?

 

Originally posted by Janus:

Jijaji scratches his head, mystified as to why anyone would post in such a manner. People do not in general challenge their beliefs.

 

Huh??? I'm not challenging my beliefs! I'm challenging the offenders who wish to minimize and slander His Divine Grace to prove what I said is not true. You said much the same as me, but you apparently like your own wording far better than mine.

 

This is not in accordance with Vaisnava philosophy which requires that we argue strongly against our postulates, and prove them, but it is in accordance with our conditioning. Nietche observed that people do not want challenging questions, that they want comforting explanations instead. Bill Cosby the famous Afro-American comedian perhaps said it better. Commenting upon the same defect, the product again of our conditioning and conditioned defects; he said that parents aren't interested in justice, that they just want quiet.

 

First let me say that as a parent, I was always first and foremost interested in justice and the transmission of higher knowledge. If you intended this analogy to cite that somehow I am desperately trying to quiet the challenges to my beliefs, why on earth would I say 'debate this!'? You're not making sense.

 

Ultimately, my purpose, which appears lost to not only the envious, but to thinking devotees like yourself too, was to silence the blasphemous ideas against Srila Prabhupada. That is not for my peace of mind, that is for the good of all souls who are otherwise contaminated by the poison. Furthermore, when one is defeated in debate, it is Vedic to accept the real conclusion and change, and I do not give up all hope for offenders to have the necessary change of heart they need to overcome their enviousness.

 

In the Bhagavad Gita it mentions the actual four types of persons that actually approach Krsna, amonst which are the distressed. Quite a few of us were responding to an emotional impetus rather than a pholosophical justification,...

 

It is really incorrect for you to make this judgement on my reasons for joining and my shraddha in Srila Prabhupada. I read Bhagavad-gita As It Is four times while joining, so when I first went to a temple I didn't need any gita verses quoted to me as to why I should perform devotional service, take prasadam and surrender to Krsna. My sraddha in His Divine Grace is based solely on the fact that I know he has planted the bhakti lata bhija within my heart, and the gita contained the answers to life that I had been searching for all my life. Nothing to do with emotions. The emotions come later, in gratitude and loving reciprocation for such causeless mercy and transcendental bliss and spiritual realizations I have been benedicted with.

 

or a search for truth when we became devotees. We accepted, believing blindly and never challenging our beliefs, even though to do so required that we suspend reason, and accept what we are conditioned to regard as completely preposterous, like four headed Lord Bhrama, swan aeroplanes, devas and demons going into battle astride giant ducks and rabbits, elephants in Hell etc., There was a child like innocence about us then and a complete bewilderment. We toOk a leap of faith, a big one, and we depended upon Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to catch us. That they did not live up to our childish expectations,...

 

I have not been disappointed in my expectations, that's for sure.

 

that the world did not become Krsna Conscious overnight as we all expected it to, and that the movement turned into a theater for abuse has provoked many to become criticizing rather than critical.

 

And so we should be giving them correct understanding, not making judgements on other devotees who are also working to correct misunderstandings.

 

The ladies post in question is an emotional respose to the crticisms that are coming in from many directions against Srila Prabhupada, and it is thus not articulated very well. Were it then she would have defined her terminology a little better, what for instance she meant by her claim that Srila Prabhupada deseminated transcendental truths, and she would have backed up her assertions with instances and proofs. As it stands I agree with you that to the average persons appraisal that it is just bewilderning and certainly not an invite that most people would even know how to respond to, let alone feel comfortable with. An open invitation to come and fight.

 

And so we see that hecklers with no understanding of Krsna consciousness have ONCE AGAIN succeeded in dividing. Just because your mind didn't appreciate my use of language does not make your conclusions here correct by any estimation. Rather, I see you are being affected now by the poison.

 

Playing the devils advocate in this instance and challenging her claims which are far to ambiguous, poorly defined to respond to, might, as you say; have the effect of demonizing the person doing so to the blind faith believers who are not very familiar with the Krsna conscious method of establishing the absolute truth,

 

My claims are not in the least ambiguous. You're trying to hard to appeal to those who are envious of the pure devotee. The demon is the one who is antagonistic to Krsna and His pure devotee. Let's not be so new-age-y as to think it's all one, everyone has the same dark side and if anyone disagrees with a devotee's glorification of their guru it is ok to minimize the pure devotee's activities. You are so far from any true 'debate' about this now it is very saddening to see after your previous statements of Truth.

 

And you can can the accusation that I artificially 'created' demonic reactions in a desire to 'fight'.

 

which again requires strong arguements against ones own postulate before evidence is even presented. One could start by argueing that ISKCOM evidences clearly that Srila Prabhupada was unable to desiminate any transcendental truths to his closest disciples at least and that the movement as it is right now is continueing evidence of that failure may be included as further arguement against her position.

 

I didn't write a thesis, I made a statement, and I even presented evidence.

 

As for Srila Prabhupada's 'close' disciples, who are you considering his 'close' disciples? The ones who usurped and hijacked the movement for their own aggrandizement power and fortune? Don't make me puke.

 

As for ISKCON standing against my thesis, I stand against ISKCON in it's present state of mis-application of Srila Prabhupada's sublime method, I and thousands of other close disciples of His Divine Grace. Don't you?

Once a person accepts blindly they do not ever have to trouble themselves again about the things that occaisioned the emotional impetus that propelled them to blind faith certitude. Blind faith certitude fulfills an emotional need. Ignorance is bliss.

 

And your pointing this at me is simply a gross insult.

 

When I first went into a Krsna temple I required a question to be answered by the ultimate authority of your tradition, before I even sat down and accepted prasadam. The answer to that question was given me directly from the pages of Bhagavad Gita in the manner employed in Bibliomancy, which is asking a question and then opening a Bible to a random page and considering the first thing that you read to be that questions answer. That answer was that Lord Krsna didn't give a damn as to what happened to your material body. Fresh back from Viet Nam I sat down, took prasadam and listened.

 

When I first went to a temple it was because I wanted to engage in pure devotional service to the Lord and His devotees. I already understood gita. But so what? That will not lead me to criticize you!

 

... and I never expected the movement to provide me with an old age pension.

 

What, I did?!?

 

The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada,

 

Duh, and what, you don't?

 

she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain.

Hari bol

 

 

I am expressing a lot more than that. And my pain comes from the degredation to the lives of Srila Prabhupada's devotees and his mission that occurred through mis-representing the philosophy and mis-applying it. That you foresaw this happening does not make you a cut above. That it has happened, has not tainted my sraddha, nor has it tainted Srila Prabhuada's sublime transcendental message.

 

How is it that you do not instead of attacking me, take issue with the emnity expressed re/Srila Prabhupada? I think you think you are being compassionate and magnanimous, but what you are really doing is giving envy credit that it is not due.

 

Aspiring to be of service,

Madhavi-devi dasi

[M-dd]

Originally posted by gopal:

Good meassage there. Now how is this for accepting Prabhupad? Another from mr confused.

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by amanpeter:

Just for the record, prabhu, he is NOT my guru nor do I accept any other jiva soul, to the exclusion of others, in that role. My guru/God is Sri Radha ONLY, though I try to see Her in ALL others. I understand how important diksa and parampara are to you, but I believe as Divine Grace personified, in fact it's very source, She is beyond all that and nothing is impossible for Her. All necessary arrangements will be made in this or some future lifetime. At this point, thanks in no small part to my involvement with ISKCON, I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, let alone commit myself to anyone eternally but Her.

 

 

 

 

'thanks in no small part to my involvement within iskcon I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, etc?'

 

This is to be pitied but point is this is from one who claims to respect Prabhupada. Point is not to disturb needlessly but this ignorance has to be shown.

 

 

[Janus]

... and I never expected the movement to provide me with an old age pension.

--

 

What, I did?!?

 

A lot of the things that I posted that you considered to be aimed at you missed you completely, for you were standing by my side (figurativly), when I posted, but we were both on the same side and I was talking about others.

 

 

quote:

--

The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada,

--

 

 

Duh, and what, you don't?

 

No, not at all "Challenge authority!" If you view a challenge as an attack that is your misfortune, but we cannot avoid controversy, and so let us welcome it.

It isn't just members of ISKCON who are considering that Srila Prabhupada was just some upstart householder who just happened to be in the right place at the right time, not even stalwart Vaisnvas understand him enough to make comprehensive statements as to the reason and rhyme of his activities.

And then there are the most importants, the innocents, the many misfortunate, the devotees you lament about and then there are the children of ISKCON, many of whom consider Srila Prabhupada to be the co-author of their suffering.

 

Claim that he is perfect and beyond fault all that you wish, but unless we are capable of rising to the challenge and issueing far greater than just arguement the best regaurd that some of the innocents will ever have of him was that he was just a delusional old man.

So no, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with challenging authority, especially when that authority requires that we answer to that challenge, that we invite it, that we pray to Krsna for it, upon the behalf of his mission which he would even have himself ground up to make grease for the axles of to keep it rolling.

You did just that, you challenged the authority if those challenging Srila Prabhupada in your "Debate this". You invited every single person that doesn't like Srila Prabhupada, or who questions his perfection to attack and made it look like you were reday to defend, Hah.

That is what you did. Note the resounding response?

Why?

"Oh, it is just another incarnation of Priestess, who can take her seriously."

Jijaji was right,and he was nice about it although just a little criticism and you feel "attacked".

You really want to defend Srila Prabhupada?

Or is it simply that you cannot see your golden idol tarnished, your blind faith upset to the point that your feelings of certitude are challenged? Do you really want to chase his attackers back under their rocks, your posting doesn't exhibit much capability that you could manage this, or even argue articularly from a philosophical perspective. But even if that were what we needed I still do not see how you, who make such statements as that Srila Prabhupada gave you pure devotion which infers that you consider yourself to be a pure devotee are of any value in defending Srila Prabhupada.

If you want to justify his presentation in the eyes of those whose material sufferings and mental turmoil were occaisioned by their birth in or participation in the movement you will have to convince me of your sinserity before I will consider you worth more than the cost of your material components.

 

Show me.

 

I am resonsible for the closing of the VNN forums due to my disnouncements of SNM there for his idiocy and offense. He dared catorgorize Srila Prabhupada as an asslike Vaisnava and refer to some nice devotees as poison occaisioned my ire and causing me to do some srious damage to the soft faith of his disciples and to cause the undecided to reject him.

 

I've kicked Puru's butt and Rocana's too and am pretty much a match for all of the accumulated evil in your entire mission.

But unless I find some few of you whose heads aren't firmly up their butts I'm through with helping you.

Show me and then let them attack so that we may defend, and justify, the ways of God to men, otherwise go hide your head in shame at your pathetic presentation.

 

 

quote:

--

she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain.

Hari bol

 

--

 

 

I am expressing a lot more than that. And my pain comes from the degredation to the lives of Srila Prabhupada's devotees and his mission that occurred through mis-representing the philosophy and mis-applying it.

 

I know where your pain comes from. Do you think that I do not feel it, taste it, share it in sympathy with you, shout out together in outrage, curse like the saltiest sailor against that which occasions it, not only envy, but ignorance.

 

>>>That you foresaw this happening does not make you a cut above.<<<<

 

"Born of the Blood is best, but second best by Initiation." I have an edge, I was born with it, sharpened it, but Srila Prabhupada gave me more.

 

"That it has happened, has not tainted my sraddha, nor has it tainted Srila Prabhuada's sublime transcendental message.

 

A transcendental message cannot be apprehended cognitivly except by pure cognition, or "realization", a spiritualized understanding, a thing that is known not by the hand or by the head but by the soul. From the souls cognition it illumines conceptualization, and then conception is the same, it is spiritualized, and then from the lips it is substance.

How many seeds fell upon barren earth, how many creepers were trampled, and how many are like you, like me, like so many others trying still to sprout in this poisonous atmosphere?

We are lucky that they attack for what comes after is the opposite of love, it is indifference, it is who cares, it is Krsna consciousness deferred to a time some hundreds of years from now, till a time long after you and your children are all dead, till a time long after the pure devotees that Srila Prabhupada promissed would take birth in our childrens childrens generation have been aborted or born prematurely and hooked on crack, or worse, had to grow up in this society.

 

"How is it that you do not instead of attacking me, take issue with the emnity expressed re/Srila Prabhupada?"

 

As I said many of the things which you took personally were not meant for you, take for instance the explantion of blind faith acceptants who proceding on an emotional impetus lapse into comfortable complacency once they have elevated a generality into a Platonic Absolute. You assumed that that was aimed at you and it may have seemed to be, but their rewards are different than those that you have recieved. They stay in the darkness, you, you by your own admission have transcendental understanding, they never attain it, so you are obviously not in the same category, had you any doubt? I didn't.

 

"You think you think you are being compassionate and magnanimous, but what you are really doing is giving envy credit that it is not due.

 

Jijaji is not envious, and let the envious think that I credit them, it will draw their necks out further, and I flatly refuse to agree with you that all who find fault with Srila Prabhupada are envious. Some are innocent, just angry and upset, someone has certainly let them down, they are right about that. So they aim at Srila Prabhupada their painful cries for help. Who shall answer them? Am I my brother keeper?

Debate ME prabhu, prove your assertions that Srila Prabhupada deseminated transcendental knowledge, or as your thread implies through ambiguity that ANY recieved it, or that enough did and to the exstent that it prevented his mission from going to Hell. How is it that he appointed persons like the child rapist murderer Kirtananada to power? Could he not tell that they had no moral fiber let alone position of transcendental knowledge?

You are going to have to be up to this if you want to counter the attackers. If your willing then I am too, otherwise we accept what Srila Prabhupada and Jesus both accepted, our master to be crucified and his name reviled "Srila Prabhupada, King of the child molesting movement"

Hari bol

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 10-15-2001).]

[melvin]

Why are you bombing each other,

Guys? Har har de har. Osama

Bin Laden in his foxhole deep

within Mt Kabul is laughing to

death at your antics, err, an-

tiques!

[Janus]

 

 

Subjective: Of or belonging to that which is within the mind and not subject to independent verification.

 

Everything that you see is in your head Prabhu the sun, the moon, the entire universe. I am in your head. Just imagine what I could do there. Sorry though, I can't stay long enough to get to know you, just as well though. Keep up the good work though!

Hari bol

 

 

Objective: Something that is externally perceivable and subject to independent verification by the mind and senses.

 

 

Subjective Faith and Reality:

 

We appreciate any saint or scripture according to our subjective faith. Prabhupad or any saint will have their own level of spiritual attainment that is not fully objective, especially to those outside their particular circle. From our point of view this can be attributed to the covering of illusion as explained in BG: 7:13. That covering has many levels with much gray area where the subject may still be covered while some illuminating light shows through.

 

Therefore even within the circle of faith that surrounds a saint there is likely to be different visions of the saint due to the taste and level of attainment of different disciples.

 

In chapter 42 of Krishna book we find that when Krishna entered the arena he appeared differently to each person or group according to their relationship with Him. Even pure devotees view Krishna differently and may see Him as God, not God, or even more than God according to their taste.

 

Rupa Goswami said that volumes can be written from different levels or viewpoints on every sloka of the Bhagavatam and Mahaprabhu showed this in his conversations with Bhattacharya by explaining one sloka 32 different ways without ever touching the previous explanation.

 

The message here is there are different views of both the spiritual master and Krishna that may be correct on various levels. Spiritual life is one of subjective faith and realization. What one sees due to his attainment another may be unable to see. Thus understanding of scripture and Guru goes on in a relative way according to the various levels of the disciples. And the qualifications and individual attainment of each Guru are also relative although in scripture we are advised to see our Guru as the absolute representative of Krishna.

 

Still a time may come when we may have to even analyze our own Guru or we may have to take the help of another Guru in order to fully understand what our Guru was trying to teach. (Read Sri Guru and His Grace)

 

Krishna and Guru are unlimited and there are unlimited ways to understand them at various levels. Therefore it is best not to demonize those of faith who might present opinions of Krishna and Guru that may be somewhat different than our own. Vision of Guru and Krishna is subjective and not objective. And there is an entire Transcendent Reality that can only be attained by those whose subjective faith and devotion has deemed them qualified to enter.

 

Hare Krishna, BDas

[Janus]

Everything we see we see only within our own tiny heads, the sun, the moon, the entire universe, everything. Everything we see we see internally, in our minds eye, and thus everything that we see is, in a very real sense, only our imagination.

Pratyaksa, or sense perception is relative, and it is also karanapatava, or imperfect. It is relative because it is not absolute. It is relative because it is not perfect, not direct.

Direct experience requires that that which is being experienced must be at least in essence the same as that which is experiencing it. Thus while the material senses can have a direct experience with a material object, and thus while the mind can have a direct experience with a thought, the self same soul that is the actual identity remains aloof from the objects of the senses, unaffected, untouched, un-involved with both the gross and subtle forms of matter. But not out of trying, of course. We try to touch so very closely, to hold so very much, but what do we touch, only an appearance of our actuality. Something so beautiful, that turns so very ugly, something so smooth that wrinkles to our touch, something so sweet that turns to bitter.

Of the hundreds and thousands of bits of sensory data that we are receiving at each and every moment of our lives we are still only receiving a small portion of all that is available and by the time we receive a conscious perception of the object that we have been viewing in our minds eye, we are only receiving some ten or fifteen bits of the original tens of thousands of bits of energy that our senses apprehended, and by the process of selection even more are lost, and then to fill in the gap, something else is added. In that brief moment between the impact of the energy from a space time event upon our visual receptors until the instant of an images appearance in our minds eye, the mind has added color, shape, size and placement and has suited it also to conform with our expectations. Thus even the colors that we perceive are muted or brightened in conformance to something as simple as our moods. And yet, in spite of all this our greatest imagination is our imagination that we are both objective and comprehensive, even when we realize that every single illusion that we have of reality is conjectured and inferred.

 

Universe is the sum total of all possibilities.

In my fathers house there are many mansions.

The kingdom of God is at hand.

 

My Universe, my house, my hand. Vipralipsa; deception, a deception that is tangible, that we taste, that we touch, that we scent, see and hear. A deception that blinds our eyes with it’s beauty, that tastes sweetness in our mouths, touches softness to our skin. The appearance of objectivity, that we are somehow being more objective than the next person, that we are right and that they are wrong, that we being very, very good and that they are being very, very bad; “envious” for challenging “God”, our perception.

The priests of the idol speak only the words that the faithful wish to hear.

“Believe and sink not doubt and perish”

Thus would run the edict of the other god who names me demon to His angels.

They echo the sound which strikes their ear and knowing not beyond their shallow senses worship the word which strikes

their ear and deem evil or good what is proclaimed to them in their abasement.

I will have none such.”

Byron, Cain, a Play

[gopal]

Analyzing the guru and listening to aparadh are two interiely different things. I hope most disciples have done the proper analysis before taking initiation> I think your point is off the track.

[valaya]

When Srila Gurudev is thinking himself to be the absolute least, lower than a `worm in stool`, without any love for Krsna whatsoever, how can his sincere disciple possibly consider himself/herself as anything more?

 

How much different would our relationships be if we all had this perspective? How naturally encouraging we would be to each other!

 

Prabhupada wanted us to actually see others as prabhu, did he not, therefore always automatically offering respects to everyone everywhere?

 

Only from that firm foundation can we ever hope to chant the Holy Names continuously...and that, prabhus, is surely the bottom line if we are to actually become devotees rather than simply thinking of ourselves as such.

 

valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-15-2001).]

[BDas]

 

Definitions:

 

Subjective: Of or belonging to that which is within the mind and not subject to independent verification.

 

Objective: Something that is externally perceivable and subject to independent verification by the mind and senses.

 

 

Subjective Faith and Reality:

 

We appreciate any saint or scripture according to our subjective faith. Prabhupad or any saint will have their own level of spiritual attainment that is not fully objective, especially to those outside their particular circle. From our point of view this can be attributed to the covering of illusion as explained in BG: 7:13. That covering has many levels with much gray area where the subject may still be covered while some illuminating light shows through.

 

Therefore even within the circle of faith that surrounds a saint there is likely to be different visions of the saint due to the taste and level of attainment of different disciples.

 

In chapter 42 of Krishna book we find that when Krishna entered the arena he appeared differently to each person or group according to their relationship with Him. Even pure devotees view Krishna differently and may see Him as God, not God, or even more than God according to their taste.

 

Rupa Goswami said that volumes can be written from different levels or viewpoints on every sloka of the Bhagavatam and Mahaprabhu showed this in his conversations with Bhattacharya by explaining one sloka 32 different ways without ever touching the previous explanation.

 

The message here is there are different views of both the spiritual master and Krishna that may be correct on various levels. Spiritual life is one of subjective faith and realization. What one sees due to his attainment another may be unable to see. Thus understanding of scripture and Guru goes on in a relative way according to the various levels of the disciples. And the qualifications and individual attainment of each Guru are also relative although in scripture we are advised to see our Guru as the absolute representative of Krishna.

 

Still a time may come when we may have to even analyze our own Guru or we may have to take the help of another Guru in order to fully understand what our Guru was trying to teach. (Read Sri Guru and His Grace)

 

Krishna and Guru are unlimited and there are unlimited ways to understand them at various levels. Therefore it is best not to demonize those of faith who might present opinions of Krishna and Guru that may be somewhat different than our own. Vision of Guru and Krishna is subjective and not objective. And there is an entire Transcendent Reality that can only be attained by those whose subjective faith and devotion has deemed them qualified to enter.

 

Hare Krishna, BDas

 

[Janus]

We should certainly be there to offer friendship and encouragment to each other, each and every day, but should we be open to each other? That again most certainly, but while we are we most certainly again gaurd against our habit of wandering off into the "Real" Universe and stay involved in where we are, what we are doing and what is going on around us.

In the "Real" Universe, all things are determined, including us and our thoughts. We are therein the products our our conditioning and are merely reactive mechanisms, in the experienced world, we are creators. The "Real" Universe is just another of our creations - a dangerous one, with the tendency to hypnotize us.

Our mode of consciousness seems historically to have been determined by neurological (unconscious) habits. When we become aware of this, and struggle against this inertia of habit, consciousness continually mutates, becomes less particle like and "fixed," spreads like a flowing wave, we become finally capable of submissive listening, of finally regarding not only our own Godbrothers and Godsisters, but everyone, even the littlest ant, as Prabhu.

[Janus]

 

"Prabhupada wanted us to actually see others as prabhu, did he not, therefore always automatically offering respects to everyone everywhere?"

 

We should certainly be there to offer friendship and encouragment to each other, each and every day, but should we be open to each other? That again most certainly, but while we are we most certainly again gaurd against our habit of wandering off into the "Real" Universe and stay involved in where we are, what we are doing and what is going on around us.

In the "Real" Universe, all things are determined, including us and our thoughts. We are therein the products our our conditioning and are merely reactive mechanisms, in the experienced world, we are creators. The "Real" Universe is just another of our creations - a dangerous one, with the tendency to hypnotize us.

Our mode of consciousness seems historically to have been determined by neurological (unconscious) habits. When we become aware of this, and struggle against this inertia of habit, consciousness continually mutates, becomes less particle like and "fixed," spreads like a flowing wave, we become finally capable of submissive listening, of finally regarding not only our own Godbrothers and Godsisters, but everyone, even the littlest ant, as Prabhu.

 

 

[Janus]

Concretely, two people can "be" in the same existential situation yet experience two very, very different "Real" Universe. If they are both modelthesists (sectarian) or Fundamentalists, these different visions and versions of the "Real" Universe will both be experienced as "objective" and each will REACT passivly. If both are in heightened consciousness, eyes and ears open, hearing submissivly - seeking more and more signals every minute - both "Real" Universe will still be different, but each will be experienced as a CREATION and both persons will be involved. It is more likely in the second case they will be able to communicate clearly and understand both themselves and one another; in the former case, they may fall into violent quarrel about who has the correct vision or version of the "Real" Universe and the right man will have to punish the other for his "envy."

[Janus]

“We are, nevertheless still, very far from the positive spiritual realization even after we are prepared to admit the difference between mundane and spiritual… by mere intellectual convicion, as it is never possible for the eclipsed cognitive power of man to conceive the transcendental issue as it is. For such realization man requires to be fully helped by the initiative of the Absolute Himself. It is also necessary to be enabled to receive this initial help by the due exercise of the proper receptive activity.”

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur

 

Whether then one is speaking about sex as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur was in this 1935 article from the Harmonist, or speaking about any other transcendental truth does not matter. The point is that without foundation, or the exercise of ones receptive activity by which that foundation is created, the reception of transcendental truth does not take place, no matter how much is “disseminated” Submissive listening is a must, but what the achraryas mean by “submissive” listening is hardly something that we seem to understand, otherwise how is it that an ocean of transcendental truth has been disseminated by Srila Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja, etc., and yet it seem that quite a few of us have managed to fail to even get a drop?

So strong is our habit, our conditioning that worse than walking around asleep all the time we are drifting off into our “Real” Universes, walking around hypnotized, and in this nightmarish condition we are eternally argueing with each other over who is being the more objective, EVEN when it is certainly made clear by this comment by Srila Bhaktisiddhnta that their aint no one else here in this great big ocean of nescience except those of us who are drowning.

 

Of course there are, or we believe that there are, or we at least hope that there are some few gals and guys that know the truth and can present it to us.

 

Occasionally we come across one, sitting alone on a seat in a subway car. Heck, he probably has the whole car to himself.

 

What the heck makes us imagine that it is transcendental truth that we want anyway? We sure can’t tell it from the glaring examples that have appeared to us in the form of those “Great Devotees” that our movement allowed to take it to Hell.

 

Oh yes we can tell it in little ways, if we want to see them. What makes you think that we do? Oh yes, the illusion of autonomy, like you are your "Real" identity man?

Something else is working on us, something else which running is below our level of awareness. Some damn program is running, several programs actually.

The biggest of course is that little old true friend of ours the big “L”, Lust, but there is another one going, just as strong, and that is FEAR. Our biological imperatives my be weak, but we havn’t lost all of our senses yet, we know what it takes to stay alive.

Srila Prabhupada commented quite frequently that the conditions in this society for practicing Krsna Consciousness weren’t favorable. If I recall correctly it was one of the few times that he actually said that it simply wasn’t possible to do something. Outside of the society of devotees Srila Prabhupada said that it was impossible for us to practice Krsna consciousness. But how in Heck would that engender fear?

 

Next: “When Worlds Collide.” But be comforted, this is “The Day the Earth Stood Still” and I… am the Master (Usually I just prefer to make the grass green, but I think I also have the ability to help you to the next step, to the next person, a greater Prabhu than I. I think that I can help you to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and to the lotus feet of many other Vaisnava’s who are ready to receive you. I still am empowered enough to change a world or two, might as well start on one that needs it badly, one where human life stands upon the brink of it’s greatest fulfillment, Krsna consciousness, or extinction.

I will need help however, from my prabhu’s, you, whose lotus feet I am in such a sad and silly habit of offending. Just yank me back when I go drifting off into my "Real" Universe, will you?

Hari bol.

 

 

[kailasa]

I against Kirtanananda, but he though that did(made) that, but what the so-called "decent" people do(make)? In the material world ANYONE is lower Kirtanananda, and what we would do(make) having received authority? Have created a society of friendship and love, yes, yes, all would be doubtless at us differently. Therefore SP has commissioned him, instead of others, have no value whom to authorize - all identical. Therefore one also is created JBC as everywhere only Kirtanananda - Kirtanananda M, Kirtanananda babaji. But Kirtanananda is higher than them, he is simple the gangster, he not spiritual àôåðèñò deforming sastra. Great humility, they were stopped up as soon as with him have stopped up a mouth. SP this distribution of the books, you distribute them? You distributed them 20 years back, and now has bothered? You can be have disturbed? Have offended? Do not want to visit in Cecnya? Can you in a hell be ready will set off for the sake of SP? Are not ready? Give a few money even or print one hundred books, there is no money? Krisna knows where our heart, money is not necessary to him, but how we shall leave from here at such our rule(situation)? Earn for Krisna, unit even of three men, construct even one temple. That to sense - " to me it is good " - Krisna became mine by the servant. Kirtanananda served, SP uttama guru, he not the nervous girl and he sees that there is to those who now leave a body in the material world.

[Guest guest]

Definitions:

Subjective: Of or belonging to that which is within the mind and not subject to independent verification.

Objective: Something that is externally perceivable and subject to independent verification by the mind and senses.

 

Subjective Faith and Reality:

We appreciate any saint or scripture according to our subjective faith. Prabhupad or any saint will have their own level of spiritual attainment that is not fully objective, especially to those outside their particular circle. (Bdas)

 

Sruti text clearly states that ‘sastrayonitvat’ (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.3). Sastra is the cause of attainment of vidya that is the cause of mukti and ‘spiritual attainment.’ According to your own definition, this ‘spiritual attainment’ is fully objective, as sutri is externally perceivable and subject to independent verification by the mind and senses.

 

No matter if one is appreciating sruti according to his subjective faith or not, as vidya will be attained by those who are fit to understand sastra no matter if they have faith or not in sruti ideas.

Spiritual life is one of subjective faith and realization (Bdas)

 

If so, spiritual life cannot be considered as a reality, but only as a kind of subjective feeling like a superstition.

 

[Guest guest]

 

“We are, nevertheless still, very far from the positive spiritual realization even after we are prepared to admit the difference between mundane and spiritual… by mere intellectual convicion, as it is never possible for the eclipsed cognitive power of man to conceive the transcendental issue as it is. For such realization man requires to be fully helped by the initiative of the Absolute Himself. It is also necessary to be enabled to receive this initial help by the due exercise of the proper receptive activity.” (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur)

 

Sruti, smrtis and Itihasas are full of examples of bests, birds, trees and other inanimate beings that had attained Hari due His Grace and free will. Were they enabled to receive an ‘initial’ help due exercise of the proper receptive activity? For certain they simply couldn’t due their very low condition.

 

So, how can some one states that one is very far from the ‘positive spiritual realization’ if this realization simply cannot depend on jiva’s own efforts and deeds, but exclusively on Hari’s free will? Is Hari’s Grace conditioned by any previous sadhana? Or it is to be considered causeless?

 

Does anyone has attained Hari simply by practicing sadhana? Can some one give us an example of such situation please!

 

[gopal]

 

Originally posted by valaya:

When Srila Gurudev is thinking himself to be the absolute least, lower than a `worm in stool`, without any love for Krsna whatsoever, how can his sincere disciple possibly consider himself/herself as anything more?

 

Since when is objecting to aparadhas against the guru equivalent to considering oneself more than the guru. What nonsense is spoken here.

 

Valaya: How much different would our relationships be if we all had this perspective? How naturally encouraging we would be to each other!

 

Yes and it starts within oneself.

 

Valaya: Prabhupada wanted us to actually see others as prabhu, did he not, therefore always automatically offering respects to everyone everywhere?

 

Prabhupada said some you must respect at a distant. Like I respect you as part and parcel of Krsna. He also said to choose your association carefully, even amongst the devotees living in the temple. what to speak of someone who fluctuates and repeatedly offends the devotees and guru.

 

Valaya:

 

Only from that firm foundation can we ever hope to chant the Holy Names continuously...and that, prabhus, is surely the bottom line if we are to actually become devotees rather than simply thinking of ourselves as such.

 

valaya RR

 

It starts with the self. And you certainly do not have something more to tell me than I already know from my guru. Or do you think your more than my guru as you yourself put it?

 

 

[gopal]

Originally posted by Janus:

Next: “When Worlds Collide.” But be comforted, this is “The Day the Earth Stood Still” and I… am the Master (Usually I just prefer to make the grass green, but I think I also have the ability to help you to the next step, to the next person, a greater Prabhu than I. I think that I can help you to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and to the lotus feet of many other Vaisnava’s who are ready to receive you. I still am empowered enough to change a world or two, might as well start on one that needs it badly, one where human life stands upon the brink of it’s greatest fulfillment, Krsna consciousness, or extinction.

I will need help however, from my prabhu’s, you, whose lotus feet I am in such a sad and silly habit of offending. Just yank me back when I go drifting off into my "Real" Universe, will you?

Hari bol.

 

 

I volunteer to do the first yanking, Bhakta George/Whyspery. You're intoxicated. Got to be, to be talking like this. We don't need your wishywashy catering to whoever flatters you kind of help.