Debate this!

[Janus]

>>>I volunteer to do the first yanking, Bhakta George/Whyspery. You're intoxicated. Got to be, to be talking like this. We don't need your wishywashy catering to whoever flatters you kind of help.<<<

 

Gopal

Earlier in response to another post of mine you said that it was a great post, but here you catergorize my posts as wishy washy, and catering to whoever flatters me.

This leads to the logical conclusion that you regard only wishy washy posts as being great, or that you can't make up your mind, or that since I did not reply to your flattering comment issued previously with comment regarding your posts in kind, praising your alacrity, articulation, style of font etc, that you felt slighted, and that thus you are trying to take back your original praise or trying to punish me for not praising you.

Sorry, I am so attached to praise and so much seeking it that I do not usually respond to those praising me.

What I take offense to though, is your speaking as "We". Do you have a tape worm or some other parasite with whom you have formed a symbiotic relationship with that entitles you to speak as "We". If so might I ask you which, the worm or yourself is the dominant half of the realtionship. Never mind which you think is the most intelligent, it is obvious to me.

I totally reject your conciet that you are at all qualified to speak for the community, as well as your estimate, either favorable or unfavorable to my postings except as how they help or do not help you. Since an ealier posting of mine was described as being great by you (although without comment in regaurds to what you considered to be great) I would hope that you recieved some benifit from it, one that you recognized, and not that it was (as some believe) a subtle attempt at acquistion for the purpose of manipulation.

Likewise your latest post does not take acception to any point in the posts, does not argue against any postulate, only suggest that I am not in my right mind, or normal, or "clearly objective." You only affirm the truth of my posts in that here there is evidence that you are considering yourself more objectine and have drifted off into your "Real Universe" in which your esteem by others upon this forum figures as your most pressing interest.

In truth though I did consider editing that and ony portion of my posting that you commented on out of the postings, and that part only as it is mystifying. Even if one had seen both the movies When Worlds Collide and The Day the Earth Stood Still how many had read the short story "Farewell to the Master" which has a shocking twist at the ending that isn't contained in the movie, and more importantly how many would have caught that what I was really alluding to was the clash of world views and the ability on reason to triumph over madness?

I am far from perfect and have many, many faults but I do not consider that the clearer portions of my posts which are the most instructive do not present understandings which are extremely benificial. Everyone is needed. Indeed I consider them essential.

That you do not, or that you sometimes think that this ones posts are great and sometimes wishy washy I have no objection to, for I agree with that assesment in regards to my imput on these forums.But That you forget or conveniantly exclude the fact that on this thread you have previously complemented my post as great and seek now to create the belief that they are all wishy washy and unneeded I take acception to. That you accompany your denunciation with "We" has however got me seathing. I hate people who try to mold public opinion for the purpose of satisfying some petty desire for false ego agrandizment or for any other reason other than for their benifit and only then with their knowledge and permission. Every individual has not only the ability and right to think for themselves but the obligation to do so and Lord Sri Krsna in the 13th and 14th chapters of Bhagavad Gita makes it quite clear that unless each individual does so they won't advance.

So I am sure that Lord Krsnas words are true, that we can elevate ourselves trough our minds and that is what these posts, or the most of them are dedicated to doing.

 

 

[kailasa]

To distribute the books ekstatic, it is not necessary aspires to result, put one book to itself in a bag. Take always with itself a pair of the books and you see the world on another, the supersoul will deduce(remove) you on a clean place, she will cancel a part of reactions immediately. Any of you can start this movement in the city, Krisna will send understanding, realization without problems - is spontaneous or sadana - whom as it is pleasant. you will be connected to the God now here, on Goloka, in any form - brahman, Visnu, gopi. Always take with itself the book, I ask you. SP he is not simple guru, acariya. I bring bows everyone, whom I have offended, nevertheless to suffer(bear) attacks on ISKCON and SP I can only up to what that of a degree. ISKCON this joint management, ISKCON it sermon - everyone SHOULD it do(make) the instruction Caitanya Mahaprabhu is those, it is impossible to preach without reactions, here not the spiritual world, it(he) is created for problems. ISKCON it is all devotee which cooperate, and ISKCON it is concrete organization as the concrete people particularly will not deceive, the concrete people can particularly to you tell that wanted SP. ISKCON it is the books SP as ALL race it not simply sect sastra.

 

Hare Krisna.

[BDas]

 

SRI GURU AND HIS GRACE

 

The Land of Gurus

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

 

 

na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam

 

"One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru."

 

 

In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru .

 

There are different classes of guru. All Vaisnavas are considered gurus. If the spiritual master gives even one letter to the disciple, what is contained there is infinite. The knowledge given by the spiritual master is infinite. To know and understand it fully, however, different sources are necessary.

 

In the highest position one can read devotion to Krsna from everywhere. If we can attain the proper vision, then everything will supply me inspiration towards the performance of our duties. Whenever Mahaprabhu saw a forest, he saw it as Vrndavana. Whenever he saw a river, he saw the Yamuna. Whenever he saw a hill, he saw it as Govardhana hill. In that highest stage, wherever we cast our glance, it will remind us about our Lord. They will teach us, they will press us to engage ourselves in service to Krsna. That is the duty of guru. Wherever we cast our glance, whatever we come in contact with will only excite us "Do your duty." That is guru. Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center. So, because every atom in Vaikuntha and Goloka will encourage us towards our duty, they are all our gurus. Gurus will be very amply available when we can raise ourselves to a higher level.

 

 

Guru-Dispels Darkness

 

When we are in the lower stages of material conception, everything we see takes us away from the center by the out-carrying current. Whatever we see says "Oh, come and enjoy me." The invitation of enjoyment is found here in the lower level, and the inspiration of renunciation is also found in a particular stage. The impersonalists who desire salvation say "Whatever we find here is temporary. Reject it all!" But devotion is the positive side. From the side of devotion, everything will draw me towards the center, towards Krsna. And those who will help us in that way, are our gurus. Guru means "one who dispels the darkness of both enjoyment and renunciation . "

 

Krsna tells us not to particularize in one point (acaryam mam vijaniyan ). There are so many siksa gurus in the line, and it is our good fortune to see more gurus, to come to the stage where we see gurus everywhere. Everywhere we shall try to draw the hints of the auspicious presence of Godhead. Krsna says, "One who can see me everywhere, and everything in me is never lost to Me, nor I to him (yo mam pasyati sarvatra, sarvam ca mayi pasyati ). We shall try to see Him in every medium. Then our position is safe. Not to see guru is a dangerous position. But if we can see guru everywhere, advising us to concentrate our energy towards the service of God, then we'll be safe. Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him."

 

 

Jewel Within the Palm

 

Who is acarya ? One who knows how to give due respect to his own acarya. Baladeva Vidyabhusana has explained in one of his commentaries how both Rupa and Sanatana Goswami have shown Govinda to the world. He says that if one has a jewel in his hand, he can show the jewel in various ways by holding it differently. Rupa and Sanatana have each dealt in various ways with the jewel by the name of Govinda, who is always served by the Supreme Goddess of Fortune. They have both shown that high substance, Govinda, to the world just as a jewel within their palms.

 

So not only in the supreme goal of life, but in everything, our knowledge depends on more than one source. We mainly learn from one place, but this is verified and corroborated by many sources; then it comes to be proper knowledge. In the nyaya sastra, the codes of logic, the six processes of acquiring knowledge are mentioned: visaya, the thesis, samgaya, the antithesis, purva-paksa, cross-examination, mimamsa, synthesis, siddhanta, conclusion, and samgatih verification from different sources. After these six stages, something may come in the name of truth in this world. Any knowledge presupposes consultation with different sources, although mainly we can get it from one source. In the beginning we inquire about the truth, not from one, but from many sources. Then we concentrate to inquire from a particular higher source.

 

Our first connection with the truth comes from here and there in small quantities. First there is ajnata sukrti, unknown pious activities, then jnata-sukrti, pious activities performed in knowledge, then sraddha, faith, then sadhu sanga, the company with saints. In this way, we search for Sri Krsna. We inquire here and there. Many saints help us to a certain extent. Ultimately we go that spiritual master in whom we find the greatest possibility of learning the truth, and we surrender there.

 

Having accepted a spiritual master, one will find that his guru has so many disciples, and he will take from them also. His spiritual master will recommend some books for him. He will say, "Read Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam." That will also help us to get so many gurus through the books, where we will find many references and quotations from many gurus.

 

 

All Are Guru

 

All of them have their contribution, and ultimately we must understand that we have to enter into the land of the gurus. Everyone should be respected as guru that gives impetus to me to search for Krsna, to serve Krsna. They will all help to carry me to the center. And this is the most fortunate position: to see everyone, everywhere as guru, to see that no one is our servant and no one is indifferent to us. That is our highest fortune: to attain that highest spiritual environment where everyone is our guru. Here, everyone is our servant; even our father and mother. We want to draw something from everyone in this world of exploitation. And by renunciation everything is eliminated; it is a deserted position. If we are to enter into the land of eternal prospect, then we must learn to see that all are our guru and we are servants.

 

That they are all gurus means they are all our well-wishing guardians. In that plane, we shall imbibe help from everywhere. Their benediction and their grace will come from everywhere. They are all well-wishers, all guardians, they all guide us towards the highest attainment of our fortune. There cannot be any objection to that.

 

But still there is gradation, just as in the very existence of God there is gradation: Vasudeva, Visnu, Narayana, Dvarakesa, Mathuresa, Svayam Bhagavan Krsna--there are so many levels. Gradation is always there, according to our inner position. So, we must not be afraid.

 

Of course there is a time, when we are surrounded by an unfavorable environrnent, that the association of a real saint is very rare. In that stage, we may be warned not to mix with the Mayavadis, Buddhists, Sankarites, Naga babas, and so many other groups of so-called sadhus, so that we may not run hither and thither only to find a guru to get any advice. To save us from such unfavorable circumstances, to protect us, we are warned, "Don't try to see guru everywhere." In a particular stage, however, when we already have a taste for the real truth, we are taken to that plane where everyone is our guru, helping us advance towards our destination.

 

This caution is valuable in the beginning, because there are so many cheaters who want to devour us. At that stage, especially, to help us proceed towards the goal, we must exclusively concentrate on our guru, avoiding the Buddhists, mayavadis, atheists, and all those who wear red rags in the name of sadhus.

 

Still, in every sampradaya, or religious tradition, that trick has been used: "Only listen here. Stick to the words of your guru, the advice of your guru. Don't try to mix hither and thither, to run here and there to get advice. So many teachers are the enemies of your guru. They are not preaching the real truth." That warning is necessary in some stage. "Don't try to see guru everywhere, because in this world, so many men in the dress of sadhus are going on with their lower campaign." This warning should come in that stage.

 

 

Hurled Down to Vaikuntha

 

And in the lower stage also, to keep up and to develop our attention and devotion towards our guru, so much help should come from our senior godbrothers. They will help us understand the greatness of our guru in different ways. They are also doing the work of siksa guru. But when we enter in the kingdom of service, then, of course, everyone will help us. It is also said that we may have an inner attraction towards Vrndavana, and our inner awakenment may be in the service of Krsna of Goloka, but if we mix with so many sadhus in Vaikuntha, then we will be hurled down to Vaikuntha.

 

In a certain stage, we should beware of bad association, so in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.91) Rupa Goswami has said, sajati-yasye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare : What sort of saintly persons shall we try to mix with earnestly? Those who are in our line, who have the same high spiritual aspirations as we do, and who hold a superior position. To associate with such saintly persons will help us the most to progress towards the ultimate goal.

 

There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati ). What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success.

 

 

 

 

 

[valaya]

There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati ). What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success.

 

What value is our `faith` if it is other, or less, than this? would it not then be actually acting against our best interests? Thank you Brahma das prabhu!

 

valaya RR

[shvu]

 

In that stage, we may be warned not to mix with the Mayavadis, Buddhists, Sankarites, Naga babas, and so many other groups of so-called sadhus....

 

and,

 

This caution is valuable in the beginning, because there are so many cheaters who want to devour us. At that stage, especially, to help us proceed towards the goal, we must exclusively concentrate on our guru, avoiding the Buddhists, mayavadis, atheists, and all those who wear red rags in the name of sadhus...

Terrific ! Now I have something. The below description is just to give people an idea that two can play this game. If people get mad while reading the below description, it is recommended they stop, read the above material in quotes and then continue. That is the seed.

 

***

 

All those who wish to progress spiritually will do good to staunchly avoid the so-called Acharyas of the Gaudiya vaishnava line, who with their two-bit scholarship sit in judgement of sadhus of other lines, by calling them so-called sadhus.

 

Q: Why are the others, "so-called" sadhus?

A: Because they are not Gaudiyas, period.

 

To continue, good association brings spiritual progress as recommended in many scriptures. Obviously, people who are interested in promoting themselves by putting down others, do not qualify as good association, but come under the category of "bad association" which is the case with the GV Gurus.

 

The simple modus operandi used by tricksters, is as follows,

 

1. Go to a foreign country, and find a set of people who have no inkling of what Hinduism or Indian history is.

 

2. Entice them with flowery [but false] descriptions of Hinduism, vedic religion, vedic scriptures(*) and drill in the idea that they are the only true genuine spiritual people in India. The rest are all trash.

 

3. Give them a comic book version of Indian history.

 

4. Give them non-existent concepts, such as, service to Krishna, prema, rasa, etc, etc, all conjured out of the hats of the GV Acharyas. There is no danger here, because the foreigners have nothing to compare this with and are in no position to find out if it is true or false. They will swallow it, hook, line and sink.

 

5. Once again, drill into their heads that GV is the only true interpretation of Sanathana dharma (This point has to be repeated at regular intervals, until it sinks in).

 

And voila ! Another brainwashed individual joins the bandwagon.

 

It is evident that there are plenty of crooks and phoneys, posing as sadhus out there, who are as spiritual as a stone wall. Hence, people who wish to find a genuine spiritual Guru, should use the Gaudiya Gurus as a model for what a Guru should not be.

 

* Hinduism - Gaudiya Vaishnavism + the rest of the false philosophies in India.

 

Vedic religion - GV, of course. (was there any doubt?)

 

Vedic literature - Any literature written by GV Gurus, and some older literature endorsed by the GV Gurus.

 

Cheers

 

 

[BDas]

Dear Shvu,

 

You seemed to be a little upset that there may be conflicts between the sects and difference of opinion in the Hindu religion.

 

You know as well as I that in India the sects have been arguing over philosophy and even fighting wars over religion for centuries. One of the formost disciples of Ramanuja was blinded by a conquering King because he would not convert to Shaivism.

And I am sure there are instances of atrocities commited by Vaisnava Kings and religionists as well.

 

Reciently I read that different sects of Naga Babbas were physically fighting with each other and that the followers (mostly Indian I might add) of Sai Baba were at odds with each other over alligations of child abuse that were directed toward him.

 

So your points that we stupid know nothing westerners are sectarian dupes and the rest of Hinduism is in non-sectarian harmony do not really stand up to objective scrutiny.

 

The fact is our Gaudiya religion has good points and bad points just like every other religion. We joined it because we liked it and you belong to whatever group, sect or none of the above because of your own reasons that may not be totally logical or fully objective.

 

To each his own. What religion do you belong to by the way? Cheerio, BDas

[melvin]

Shvu is one of the pioneers of

this discussion forum. And I

really like his reactions. In

fact, he and Jaya Sri Radhey,

also a pioneer, were regulary

discussing about mukti and

bhakti-yoga. Never understimate

Prabhu Shvu. His humility is

great, but if you question him

his mind, he can debate you on

any topic to smitheereens!

[shvu]

 

The fact is our Gaudiya religion has good points and bad points just like every other religion. We joined it because we liked it and you belong to whatever group, sect or none of the above because of your own reasons that may not be totally logical or fully objective.

BDas,

 

I was just rambling [100%]. The point was to show, condescending remarks can be made about anyone by anyone. They have no substance and they mean nothing [both ways]. Whatever I wrote about GV was exagerration. It was a spontaenous reaction to the "so-called sadhus" piece.

 

I understand you are passionate about whatever religion you have chosen to follow and I am fine with it.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Janus]

"Cheers"

 

Elephants play, lions play, in fact there isn't a single animal that does not, excepting one.

 

"To be." From a Sanskrit root. "Or not to be?"

 

The original meaning of "To be", meant to be alone and lost. "Not to be" meant of course then to be no longer alone, no longer lost, to become again embroiled in the doings of society. It didn't mean to die then, it meant something else, something much, much, more horrible, it meant to be alone with ones self, to be alone with ones self even in the forest.

 

quote:

--

In that stage, we may be warned not to mix with the Mayavadis, Buddhists, Sankarites, Naga babas, and so many other groups of so-called sadhus....

--

 

 

and,

 

 

quote:

--

This caution is valuable in the beginning, because there are so many cheaters who want to devour us. At that stage, especially, to help us proceed towards the goal, we must exclusively concentrate on our guru, avoiding the Buddhists, mayavadis, atheists, and all those who wear red rags in the name of sadhus...

--

 

>>>Terrific ! Now I have something.<<<

 

Yes, from loneliness and isolation, from astrangement come madness, and from the association with the persons mentioned what proposal for solution can be obtained to do away wth ones pain and loneliness? Death. Kill yourself or get more and more lost, more and more maddened, become a ghost.

 

"The below description is just to give people an idea that two can play this game.

 

It is not a game because you are playing it with yourself, drifing off into the "Real" Universe and becoming hypnotized, by Mayavadi, or Bhuddhist, or Atheist, or some other reality tunnel, which can only at best devour you.

 

"If people get mad while reading the below description, it is recommended they stop, read the above material in quotes and then continue. That is the seed."

 

So you have found your bhija mantra.

 

 

***

 

>>All those who wish to progress spiritually will do good to staunchly avoid the so-called Acharyas of the Gaudiya vaishnava line, who with their two-bit scholarship sit in judgement of sadhus of other lines, by calling them so-called sadhus.<<

 

That can be accepted as an accurate generalization of some, but not all.

 

Q: Why are the others, "so-called" sadhus?

A: Because they are not Gaudiyas, period.

 

Nonsense! Because they preach that there is no self, that you are an illusion, that all is suffering so why not just end it all, or that although there is a spirit, it has no sistinction, no relationship upon the ultimate level, no love, etc., etc., etc.

 

"To continue, good association brings spiritual progress as recommended in many scriptures. Obviously, people who are interested in promoting themselves by putting down others, do not qualify as good association, but come under the category of "bad association" which is the case with the GV Gurus."

 

Another generalization that is acceptable when one considers that they are just lower to at best middle class devotees.

 

The simple modus operandi used by tricksters, is as follows,

 

1. Go to a foreign country, and find a set of people who have no inkling of what Hinduism or Indian history is.

 

Who have no inkling of what God is, of who they are, or of their relationship with him, which can be revived even while they live.

Go upon the order of your spiritual master to give them Krsna.

 

2. Entice them with flowery [but false] descriptions of Hinduism, vedic religion, vedic scriptures(*) and drill in the idea that they are the only true genuine spiritual people in India. The rest are all trash.

 

How proud he was of them, of the people of India, and of the souls surrendered to Krsna, even in the least of all ways, offering all encouragment and only disclaiming the hypocrites and the predators.

 

3. Give them a comic book version of Indian history.

 

Like Moses parting the Red Sea, like Noah and the flood? That you had to take literally because since Hesiod there has been a steady emptying of mythos of the divine. When did he ever tell you that Krsna wasn't divine, or that Krsna's pastimes wern't transcendental?

 

4. Give them non-existent concepts, such as, service to Krishna, prema, rasa, etc, etc, all conjured out of the hats of the GV Acharyas.

 

 

Christ spoke of prema, and his rasa was evident, etc., etc., etc., to all of your charges. Service to Krsna is the greatest service to the self, not because only Krsna can save anyone, but because through pleasing Krsna Krsna reciprocates, Krsna pleases you by letting you experience Krsna, by allowing you to be able to, not with your own limited capacity, but through His limitless ability which can allow you to know Krsna completely, as He is.

With our limited capacity we cannot even recieve all the beauty of the world, but through Krsna's ability we can see all of Him.

 

"There is no danger here, because the foreigners have nothing to compare this with and are in no position to find out if it is true or false. They will swallow it, hook, line and sink.

 

And then they will be lifted up to beyond the farthest star, to a world wherin no suffering exists, to eternity, knowledge and bliss, and this all may happen even while they live.

 

 

5. Once again, drill into their heads that GV is the only true interpretation of Sanathana dharma (This point has to be repeated at regular intervals, until it sinks in).

 

 

And voila ! Another brainwashed individual joins the bandwagon."

 

Yes, and begins the road back home, back to Godhead.

And in that effort there is no loss or dimunition.

 

"It is evident that there are plenty of crooks and phoneys, posing as sadhus out there, who are as spiritual as a stone wall. Hence, people who wish to find a genuine spiritual Guru, should use the Gaudiya Gurus as a model for what a Guru should not be.

 

Some, but not all, and certainly not any of the acharyas in our line.

 

* Hinduism - Gaudiya Vaishnavism + the rest of the false philosophies in India.

 

Vedic religion - GV, of course. (was there any doubt?)

 

Vedic literature - Any literature written by GV Gurus, and some older literature endorsed by the GV Gurus.

 

Cheers

 

I don't give two hoots about what ISKCON thinks, but your implication that Srila Prabhupada was a cheater is intolerable. Do you really believe that he wasn't absolutely sincere? If so you don't know what sincerity is.

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by M-dd on `World Review` under Debate Almost Fatal topic (10-18-01):

 

Sad as it is, her death sure beats the spiritual fatality of debating with or talking to your bad self as well as most others on this forum that I am quickly tiring of. You are poisonous and disgusting association. You are a killer of the soul. I have no sympathy left for you or for several others here. Attack me, go ahead, I don't read most of your posts and wouldn't click inside if I'd seen your name. I hope this ruins your day, for maybe you can still have a spiritual change of heart if you hit rock bottom. But to do that, you'd have to acknowledge just who the pure devotee guru is that benedicted us all with the association of Radhrani in Her Deity forms Whom you impersonally claim to have such intimacy with, while jumping over his head. You're a spirtually cheating looser, headed for the darkest regions of ignorance. Heed the warning if you like, or go directly on your path to hell.

Such is the heart of a so-called devotee...Instead of becoming His Divine Grace and the well-wisher of all, she turns into his anything-but-divine disgrace and the ill-wisher of all who do not comply with her views.

 

This is the inevitable result of looking only for faults in others to infect and fester, rather than searching for devotion (Sri Radha) in everyone that she can encourage and nurture.

 

Surely this is not what Srila Prabhupada expects from his initiated disciples as his living legacy. No wonder so many have rejected the entire parampara that he appeared in.

 

valaya RR

 

p.s. Her name is spelled Radharani.

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-19-2001).]

[kailasa]

By practice of yoga one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle. And after this, one becomes situated in trance, or samädhi, which means that the yogé realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. Yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Pataïjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation, but they do not understand the real purpose of the Patanjali system of yoga. There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patanjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure, out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the nondualist, but in this verse transcendental pleasure—realized through transcendental senses—is accepted. And this is corroborated by Patanjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declares in his Yoga-sutras (3.34): puruñärtha-sunyänäà gunänäà pratiprasavaù kaivalyaà svarupa-pratiñöhä vä citi-saktir iti.

This citi-sakti, or internal potency, is transcendental. Puruñärtha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This “oneness with the Supreme” is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patanjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto-darpana-marjanam, or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This “clearance” is actually liberation, or bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. The theory of nirvana—also preliminary—corresponds with this principle. In the Bhagavatam (2.10.6) this is called svarupena vyavasthitiù. The Bhagavad-géta also confirms this situation in this verse.

After nirvana, or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service to the Lord, known as Kåñna consciousness. In the words of the Bhagavatam, svarupena vyavasthitiù: this is the “real life of the living entity.” Maya, or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original eternal position of the living entity. Patanjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyaà svarupa-pratiñöha va citi-saktir iti. This citi-sakti, or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedanta-sutra (1.1.12) as ananda-mayo ’bhyasat. This natural transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

In the yoga system, as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samadhi, called samprajnata-samadhi and asamprajnata-samadhi. When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, he is said to have achieved samprajnata-samadhi. In the asamprajnata-samadhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogi is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogi is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful.

 

[kailasa]

> Who is acarya?

 

SP is described in Bibly (?), revelation 19.11-20.6. Since 20.7 there is a description of the end of gold century and in the end (20.21) clearing (for the christians basically).

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

From Shvu:

I understand you are passionate about whatever religion you have chosen to follow and I am fine with it.

I think now he can sleep at night knowing you have approved of his following the Gaudiya religion.

 

[Camm]

You guys certainly know how to talk )

 

Having only just begun to explore my spiritual path I have read your debate with real interest. The problem I have with following any religion is that words can be interpreted in so many ways - and, as we see around us, in ways that justify destruction, poverty, heartache and death.

 

We are all part of the One - connected yet unique.

 

Love to everyone whoever, wherever you are.

 

Camm

[Camm]

You guys certainly know how to talk )

 

Having only just begun to explore my spiritual path I have read your debate with real interest. The problem I have with following any religion is that words can be interpreted in so many ways - and, as we see around us, in ways that justify destruction, poverty, heartache and death.

 

We are all part of the One - connected yet unique.

 

Love to everyone whoever, wherever you are.

 

Camm

[Guest guest]

I don't give two hoots about what ISKCON thinks, but your implication that Srila Prabhupada was a cheater is intolerable. Do you really believe that he wasn't absolutely sincere? If so you don't know what sincerity is. (Janus)

 

For certain your Prabhupada was saying that he was a bona fide and authoritative representative of ‘Lord’ Caitanya. He has stressed his divinity countless times and even has mentioned sruti’s evidences trying to proof this assertive.

 

But after sometime all of the stuti evidences present by him were showed to be ‘non-plausible.’ Some were simply completely out of context, other non-existent, and other from non-acceptable sources such as Caitanya Upanisad that even Gaudiya’s scholars use to strongly decry, and so on.

 

There is a large discussion all over the net trying to establish the sruti’s evidences of Caitanya avatara. Until now, Gaudiyas’ leaders had only put more fuel to that fire by presenting more and more ‘non-plausible’ evidences from sruti texts of their sect’s most basic premise.

 

So, why one should be so certain on Prabhupada’s absolutely sincerity or even religious authority?

 

[BDas]

Dear Shvu, you wrote:

 

"BDas, I was just rambling [100%]. The point was to show, condescending remarks can be made about anyone by anyone. They have no substance and they mean nothing [both ways]. Whatever I wrote about GV was exagerration. It was a spontaenous reaction to the "so-called sadhus" piece.

 

I understand you are passionate about whatever religion you have chosen to follow and I am fine with it."

 

 

Reply from BDas:

 

I don't know about others but I really appreciated your reply to me. To me it revealed humility and heart.

 

Actually I agree with you that any Guru or religion can be critiqued from so many angles. And I will go so far as to say that Gaudiya Vedanta and logic has its own way of viewing Ultimate Reality but it is no more foolproof that many other types of religious logic. A good critic can find holes in any logic.

 

Mahaprabhu showed this during his days as Nimai Pandit when he defeated others with scripture and logic (even the Vaisnavas) and then humiliated them by going back and defeating his own arguments.

 

Along with this Vedanta sutra tells us that in spiritual matters logic is inconclusive.

 

And to those of us who think we have been drawn to the Gaudiya view because of it's great logic I beg to differ. We have been drawn to this view because of something indifinable that is beyond logic.

 

And beyond logic and everything else is Love.

 

So Shvu thanks again for your kind reply.

Hare Krishna, BDas

[M-dd]

My Valaya, you're so into showing off your chastizements. It's almost cute, like a little boy...almost.

[valaya]

Originally posted by M-dd:

My Valaya, you're so into showing off your chastizements. It's almost cute, like a little boy...almost.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

Originally posted by M-dd on `World Review` under Debate Almost Fatal topic (10-18-01):

 

Sad as it is, her death sure beats the spiritual fatality of debating with or talking to your bad self as well as most others on this forum that I am quickly tiring of. You are poisonous and disgusting association. You are a killer of the soul. I have no sympathy left for you or for several others here. Attack me, go ahead, I don't read most of your posts and wouldn't click inside if I'd seen your name. I hope this ruins your day, for maybe you can still have a spiritual change of heart if you hit rock bottom. But to do that, you'd have to acknowledge just who the pure devotee guru is that benedicted us all with the association of Radhrani in Her Deity forms Whom you impersonally claim to have such intimacy with, while jumping over his head. You're a spirtually cheating looser, headed for the darkest regions of ignorance. Heed the warning if you like, or go directly on your path to hell.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Yeah, right...cute like a self-righteous little girl trying to usurp her father's power by attempting to walk in his shoes, rather than actually follow in his footsteps.

 

Her High Priestessness banishes his other children and anyone else that refuses to accept, or dares have the audacity to challenge, her supposed authority, off to their `hellish` rooms. Twisted little sister, you are neither mother or father, nor are you in any position to criticize anyone for their personal relationship with God and/or guru.

 

`Poisonous and disgusting association` just may be in the poisoned and disgusting eyes of the beholder. In my own humble opinion, Krsna-consciousness means exactly that and practice makes perfect.

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-21-2001).]

[melvin]

I think it`s alright to say that

Srila Prabhupad was insincere in

one way or another during his

life(married or sanyasa). Even I

in one way or another have chea-

ted or lied. If you say no one

has ever lied or cheated before

in one`s life then that person

being referred to does not exist.

Even Lord Krishna cheats or lies

but who can question if He does

these things?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

But after sometime all of the stuti evidences present by him were showed to be ‘non-plausible.’

Just for the record, no one has ever shown the evidence to be false. Some people have just asserted that they were interpolations. But they have never offered any evidence or proof to back their claims.

 

There is a large discussion all over the net trying to establish the sruti’s evidences of Caitanya avatara.

Actually there is hardly any discussion on the net trying to establish Chaitanya's avatara from the shruti. Basically it is only one guy from Brazil.

 

[M-dd]

Originally posted by valaya:

 

And still trying to show off I see.

 

 

You're hysterical. Yeah, gimme the temples, money and power, my only desire in life, all I ever wanted. What an interpretation for my trying to establish the empowered authority of Srila Prabhupada in Sri Caitanya's mission! But such is your envious mentality, you who defy the guru and refuse to accept a guru. Well, no wonder your mind is so befuddled, and thus you denounce me as if you know what following in the footsteps even means, in your sick sahajiya mind.

 

Her High Priestessness

 

Hey, thanks for the compliment, but I have no such lofty vision of myself.

 

 

His other children? You are now one of his children? His children do not defy him, especially by trying to jump over his head and claim an independent relationship with the Supreme Lord and/or His Eternal Consort. You haven't even begun your spiritual life, yet you are so puffed up and arrogant that you believe yourself to have something to offer others. Spiritual life begins at initiation, whether that initiation be via fire sacrifice or any other mystical means, but only an offender would claim a transcendent relationship without said initiation in humility at the lotus feet of guru. Guru is not an imperson. Srila Prabhupada is the guru, the person, for love of whom the Deities have been pleased to grace the rest of us with Their darshan in his established temples. Only through him can you know Radharani. Therefore your claim of intimacy is false, and such a false claim is evil.

 

 

First, let's clarify, you don't challenge, you attack. Second, I have nowhere seeken to establish any authority of my own, simply the authority of Jagat Guru. It is pure envy on your part that you have continually attacked me for this. Read Caitanya Caritamrta and take note of how the exhaulted devotees even give credit always to guru, to numerous gurus. Yet you are so puffed up you spout off your no guru philosophy with great arrogance, very dangerous association for innocent persons to have, can only confuse them and may even inspire them into the demonic path you have chosen. I guess you can't get 'followers' via the straight and narrow method so you're offering an inferior version of spirituality hoping to get followers that way, followers who don't want to surrender to guru like yourself. What a pitiful waste of this human form of life

 

 

You're already there, you don't need my help. And I am not your little sister, or related to you in any way but the MOST DISTANT.

 

 

I am certainly in a position to see the offensiveness of your mentality of rejecting guru. I haven't imagined your rejection, you have declared it loudly over and over.

 

 

You have no humility and your opinion is worth zip to any transcendentalist. The first and foremost step in approaching the Supreme destination is to approach guru. This is declared in shastra, the real authority, I only repeat it. You cannot receive the darshan of Radharani without His Divine Grace, and you cannot receive His Divine Grace without surrendering to his lotus feet. You reject him, therefore you are simply a liar and a cheater posing as a realized devotee. That is poison and it is disgusting, indeed it is, and it's your stuff, not mine.

 

[Hedley]

Prabhupada warned us against beginning a sentence with the words "I think". Here is an excellent example of why.

Originally posted by melvin:

I think it`s alright to say that

Srila Prabhupad was insincere in

one way or another during his

life(married or sanyasa). Even I

in one way or another have chea-

ted or lied. If you say no one

has ever lied or cheated before

in one`s life then that person

being referred to does not exist.

Even Lord Krishna cheats or lies

but who can question if He does

these things?

 

[Hedley]

Valaya, go to your room. Your little quips and tantrums aren't cute at all.

Originally posted by valaya:

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

Originally posted by M-dd on `World Review` under Debate Almost Fatal topic (10-18-01):

 

Sad as it is, her death sure beats the spiritual fatality of debating with or talking to your bad self as well as most others on this forum that I am quickly tiring of. You are poisonous and disgusting association. You are a killer of the soul. I have no sympathy left for you or for several others here. Attack me, go ahead, I don't read most of your posts and wouldn't click inside if I'd seen your name. I hope this ruins your day, for maybe you can still have a spiritual change of heart if you hit rock bottom. But to do that, you'd have to acknowledge just who the pure devotee guru is that benedicted us all with the association of Radhrani in Her Deity forms Whom you impersonally claim to have such intimacy with, while jumping over his head. You're a spirtually cheating looser, headed for the darkest regions of ignorance. Heed the warning if you like, or go directly on your path to hell.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Yeah, right...cute like a self-righteous little girl trying to usurp her father's power by attempting to walk in his shoes, rather than actually follow in his footsteps.

 

Her High Priestessness banishes his other children and anyone else that refuses to accept, or dares have the audacity to challenge, her supposed authority, off to their `hellish` rooms. Twisted little sister, you are neither mother or father, nor are you in any position to criticize anyone for their personal relationship with God and/or guru.

 

`Poisonous and disgusting association` just may be in the poisoned and disgusting eyes of the beholder. In my own humble opinion, Krsna-consciousness means exactly that and practice makes perfect.

 

valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-21-2001).]

 

[Janus]

"Actually there is hardly any discussion on the net trying to establish Chaitanya's avatara from the shruti. Basically it is only one guy from Brazil."

 

Ah, the boy from Brazil.

Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu the hidden avatar. People are not inclined to challenge their beliefs. To insist upon them, that they be real brings up our subjective nature.

Many people live on hope in their faiths and that provides them well enough with a constitution strong enough to suffer through their infirmities of youthfullness and old age.

It is the belief of some that the onset of the Golden Age will eradicate an ages old condition of ignorance, and some others that Kali yuga shall halt it's advance not just for the promissed 10,000 years of the new order, but for the entire duration of this cycle of Bhramas...what is it, day or breath?

I am sorry but I do not remember which.

The point is; is that it is not so surprising that though many people of the strongest convincment of faith accept only on faith that which remains to be unproven to them is not at all surprising, it is expected.

We can account for this simply by self examination.

To demonstrate the proof of evidence perhaps only requires an explanation that is not at the time forthcoming simply because the need for it is just developing. Our understanding should increase if what Krsna Consciousness promisses is proved to us through our own experiences. Perhaps the New Man will be as far above us in it's capacity understanding than we are from the apes and the demigods are from us.

That even one man is challenging is something.