Did Jesus say......

[xvi000]

Do you have any Q.? Your texts are too long.

 

***********

Thomas

 

13) Jesus said to His disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell

Me whom I am like."

Simon Peter said to Him, "You are like a righteous angel."

Matthew said to Him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to Him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of

saying whom You are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk,

you have become intoxicated by the bubbling spring which I have

measured out."

And He took him and withdrew and told him three things. When

Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, "What did

Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which

he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire

will come out of the stones and burn you up."

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by shvu:

 

Can you explain 'doomed' here? What exactly do you think will happen to people who associate with them and/or read their 'poison'? btw I can just as easily say,

 

Those of you who associate with gHari-whatever & party are doomed (*), whether conversing with them or just reading their poison.

 

* Doomed - they will be taken for a ride and misled with false philosophies.

 

Looking forward to a profound answer from you,

 

Thanx.

 

THe Dammed, Doomed, Marooned

 

 

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¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

[gHari]

Welcome to my killfile list:

satyaraja

jijaji

shvu

 

Excerpt from Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila 7.50-51:

kateka zuniba prabhu tomAra nindana

nA pAri sahite, ebe chADiba jIvana

 

kateka--how much; zuniba--shall we hear; prabhu--O Lord; tomAra--Your; nindana--blasphemy; nA pAri--we are not able; sahite--to tolerate; ebe--now; chADiba--give up; jIvana--life.

 

"How long can we tolerate the blasphemy by Your critics against Your conduct? We should give up our lives rather than hear such blasphemy.

 

PURPORT

One of the most important instructions by SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu regarding regular VaiSNava behavior is that a VaiSNava should be tolerant like a tree and submissive like grass.

 

tRNAd api su-nIcena taror iva sahiSNunA

amAninA mAna-dena kIrtanIyaH sadA hariH

[Cc. Adi 17.31]

 

"One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly." Nevertheless, the author of these instructions, Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu, did not tolerate the misbehavior of JagAi and MAdhAi. When they harmed Lord NityAnanda Prabhu, He immediately became angry and wanted to kill them, and it was only by the mercy of Lord NityAnanda Prabhu that they were saved. One should be very meek and humble in his personal transactions, and if insulted a VaiSNava should be tolerant and not angry.

 

But if there is blasphemy against one's guru or another VaiSNava, one should be as angry as fire. This was exhibited by Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu. One should not tolerate blasphemy against a VaiSNava but should immediately take one of three actions. If someone blasphemes a VaiSNava, one should stop him with arguments and higher reason. If one is not expert enough to do this he should give up his life on the spot, and if he cannot do this, he must go away. While Caitanya MahAprabhu was in Benares or KAzI, the MAyAvAdI sannyAsIs blasphemed Him in many ways because although He was a sannyAsI He was indulging in chanting and dancing. Tapana Mizra and Candrazekhara heard this criticism, and it was intolerable for them because they were great devotees of Lord Caitanya. They could not stop it, however, and therefore they appealed to Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu because this blasphemy was so intolerable that they had decided to give up their lives.

 

 

TEXT 51

 

tomAre nindaye yata sannyAsIra gaNa

zunite nA pAri, phATe hRdaya-zravaNa

 

tomAre--unto You; nindaye--blasphemes; yata--all; sannyAsIra gaNa--the MAyAvAdI sannyAsIs; zunite--to hear; nA--cannot; pAri--tolerate; phATe--it breaks; hRdaya--our hearts; zravaNa--while hearing such blasphemy.

 

"The MAyAvAdI sannyAsIs are all criticizing Your Holiness. We cannot tolerate hearing such criticism, for this blasphemy breaks our hearts."

 

PURPORT

This is a manifestation of real love for KRSNa and Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu. There are three categories of VaiSNavas: kaniSTha-adhikArIs, madhyama-adhikArIs and uttama-adhikArIs. The kaniSTha-adhikArI, or the devotee in the lowest stage of VaiSNava life, has firm faith but is not familiar with the conclusions of the zAstras. The devotee in the second stage, the madhyama-adhikArI, is completely aware of the zAstric conclusion and has firm faith in his guru and the Lord. He, therefore, avoiding nondevotees, preaches to the innocent.

However, the mahA-bhAgavata or uttama-adhikArI, the devotee in the highest stage of devotional life, does not see anyone as being against the VaiSNava principles, for he regards everyone as a VaiSNava but himself. This is the essence of Caitanya MahAprabhu's instruction that one be more tolerant than a tree and think oneself lower than the straw in the street (tRNAd api su-nIcena taror iva sahiSNunA). However, even if a devotee is in the uttama-bhAgavata status he must come down to the second status of life, madhyama-adhikArI, to be a preacher, for a preacher should not tolerate blasphemy against another VaiSNava. Although a kaniSTha-adhikArI also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not competent to stop it by citing zAstric evidences. Therefore Tapana Mizra and Candrazekhara are understood to be kaniSTha-adhikArIs because they could not refute the arguments of the sannyAsIs in Benares. They appealed to Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu to take action, for they felt that they could not tolerate such criticism although they also could not stop it.

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[shvu]

 

Thanx GHari,

 

I understand where you are coming from and I have no comments on that.

 

The MAyAvAdI sannyAsIs are all criticizing Your Holiness.

Cool. It is good to know there have been some rational people (the critics) in India, and not all of them were the gullible type.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Cheers

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by gHari:

Welcome to my killfile list:

satyaraja

jijaji

shvu

 

...........

"If someone blasphemes a VaiSNava, one should stop him with arguments and higher reason. If one is not expert enough to do this he should give up his life on the spot, and if he cannot do this, he must go away."

Where in this recommendation is killing of blasphemers

(or alleged blasphemers ) promoted ?

 

BTW, do you think that Krishna's Devotee is so low

that such comments can blaspheme him ?

To think that the Devotee could be so easily blasphemed

would itself appear to be a much more fundamental blasphemy.

[darwin]

.

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 10-27-2001).]

[jijaji]

Fundy Fever...

 

Scarry stuff...those who contract this fever are tortured by others who come to different conclusions about God and spirituality than they. The fever reaches its zenith when direct disagreement occurs.

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 10-27-2001).]

[valaya]

Originally posted by jijaji:

Fundy Fever...

 

Scarry stuff...those who contract this fever are tortured by others who come to different conclusions about God and spirituality than they. The fever reaches its zenith when direct disagreement occurs.

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 10-27-2001).]

 

Perhaps this `fever` is out of frustration at the inability to defeat the supposed `offenders` by higher reasoning, which is obviously lacking, and a reluctance to take their own lives or simply go away.

 

Instead there seems to be an intense desire to punish or somehow destroy the miscreant, which is apparently not what scriptures advise, at least according to gHari prabhu.

 

valaya RR

 

 

[jijaji]

quote:

Perhaps this `fever` is out of frustration at the inability to defeat the supposed `offenders` by higher reasoning, which is obviously lacking, and a reluctance to take their own lives or simply go away.

 

jijaji:

Fundamentalism does not allow disagreement. If we look at Islam we see such intolerance it is frightening. Men cannot dress the way they want, they must have beards, etc etc. Women have to behave in a certain way as not to excite the men who are pigs and would have sex with camels anyway.

 

But my point here is the fanatical feverish heat that develops in the head region when one is completely lost in the mentality of 'My Religion the One and Only' one becomes almost insane it seems.

 

I do think it is quite possible to have a certain path where a sadhak is devoted to one deity alone with 'single minded devotion' and many Gaudiya Vaishnavs are not as fundamentalistic as others.

Same goes for Christians...some very balanced people and others like....

JIMMY SWAGGART!!

 

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 10-27-2001).]

[darwin]

Originally posted by gHari:

If someone blasphemes a VaiSNava, one should stop him with arguments and higher reason. If one is not expert enough to do this he should give up his life on the spot, and if he cannot do this, he must go away.

Well done, prabhu.

 

[shvu]

 

If someone blasphemes a VaiSNava, one should stop him with arguments and higher reason. If one is not expert enough to do this he should give up his life on the spot, and if he cannot do this, he must go away.

This is not chaitanya's instruction and is only a purport by some commentator. I would rephrase that as,

 

If someone blasphemes a VaiSNava, one should stop him with arguments and higher reason. If one is not expert enough to do this, he should realize, he lacks knowledge of his own belief system and must go back and do more study.

 

Giving up life or walking away does not help in any way.

 

Cheers

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It is amazing how you took our dull discussion of biblical passages, and injected a Krishna Conscious subject into it in a manner to make the discussion turn back to the original point of this forum, spiritual discussions.

You are mistaken about the purpose of these forums. They are not simply to discuss Gaudiya Vaishnavism. They are for spiritual discussions, which include discussions of the Bible. Now, if someone starts a thread on the bible, and if you come along and start speaking some nonsense about those things which you hate, with no connection to the thread, then you are not following the ettiquete of the forums.

[valaya]

Originally posted by shvu:

This is not chaitanya's instruction and is only a purport by some commentator. I would rephrase that as,

 

If someone blasphemes a VaiSNava, one should stop him with arguments and higher reason. If one is not expert enough to do this, he should realize, he lacks knowledge of his own belief system and must go back and do more study.

 

Giving up life or walking away does not help in any way.

 

Cheers

I'd say it may help save some unfortunate `disbeliever` from a self-appointed lynch mob...but of course I agree with your solution of more study. However, wasn't it their study/sadhana that brought them to that point in the first place?

 

They could try consulting with their beloved gurudeva, but so often he has passed on; thus conveniently allowing certain of his so-called followers to misrepresent him by their unrealized thought, words and/or deeds in whatever fanatical fashion they may find themselves driven to, always in the name of proving their superior `love and devotion`.

 

Of course what is usually proven to any more rational observer ends up being quite the opposite, and so their actions actually become a disservice to their guru, God and religion.

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[darwin]

Originally posted by jndas:

You are mistaken about the purpose of these forums. They are not simply to discuss Gaudiya Vaishnavism. They are for spiritual discussions, which include discussions of the Bible. Now, if someone starts a thread on the bible, and if you come along and start speaking some nonsense about those things which you hate, with no connection to the thread, then you are not following the ettiquete of the forums.

Your right. How's this:

 

"It is amazing how you took our dull discussion of biblical passages, and injected what you feel Jesus really said and meant, thereby fulfilling the purpose of this topic and making this topic nicely fit into it's category of spiritual discussions."

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 10-28-2001).]

[gHari]

How anyone can call that ROMANS 1 passage "dull" is beyond me. It's reminiscent of the "Fall/No Fall" debate. I certainly didn't realize that there was such profound understanding in the New Testament. Most of it was hidden in metaphor, but this was straight up tattva. And it was very powerful preaching - for those with ears and the need to hear. Seems it would even satisfy those with the need for adrenalin too; scary stuff for those who ignore Krsna.

[darwin]

gHari prabhu,

You're right. I am sorry I said it that way. I just took the time to read your Romans post. I am very impressed. You remember, you and I have had long biblical discussions before, on VNN. My frustration is that I think there needs to be more to all this than books and quotes. I scanned and posted part of a book I want you to read. I think you will agree with the author. It's in the Pilgrimage For Crows.

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 10-28-2001).]

[gHari]

At the United Communities of Spirit they have presented a number world religious texts which convey a similar message. I did not see a Vedic quote here though, although the site attempts to unify even the Vedas with all religious thought: Turn the other cheek. It did however reference Matthew's accounting of that same teaching:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Matthew 5.38-41

Jesus recommends that his disciples sell their clothes and by a sword for tribulations about to occur here, in reference to Luke 22:37:

But now," he said, "take your money and a traveler's bag. And if you don't have a sword, sell your clothes and buy one! 37For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: `He was counted among those who were rebels.'[2] Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true."

38"Lord," they replied, "we have two swords among us."

"That's enough," he said.

I found these and many more articles with a search on "turn the other cheek".

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[gHari]

This article refutes pacifism quite well.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

My frustration is that I think there needs to be more to all this than books and quotes. I scanned and posted part of a book I want you to read.

This is humorour. First you were against quotes, books, and verses. Then you recommend us to read a book. Everyone should just reply like you did and say there should be more than books and quotes.

 

I think the real point is you don't like bible quotes, but you like quotes that fit your view, like the book you are recommending.

 

[nine9]

Originally posted by shvu:

According to the Bible, Jesus was the only son of God, sent down by God to save man. God's only begotten son, who came down from heaven.

 

Definitely much more than a "bonafide acarya".

 

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said he was saktyavesh avatara, an empowered incarnation.

 

When I asked my Guru Maharaja about the meaning of the term, he responded thus:

 

(Swami BV Tripurari Maharaja)

Regarding saktyavesa, avesa means empowerment and sakti means potency. A saktyavesa avatara is one in whom a particular potency (sakti) of Godhead descends (avatara) to empower (avesa) a devotee for a specific purpose. Prthu Maharaja was empowered by the ruling potency (palanavesa), Vyasa by knowledge (jnanavesa), etc. This empowerment is temporary, as in the case of Parasaurama, who was an empowered being but lost in battle with Ramacandra when the Lord's avesa was withdrawn. We consider that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, my Gurudeva, was empowered by Nityananda Prabhu, Nityanandavesa, for the work of wide scale preaching the glories of Gauranga. This empowerment came while he was on the boat, Jaladutta. Such empowerment can be understood through the guidance of those who have eyes to see. It comes by the grace of God for his own purpose.

 

Ys., Rama Kesava dasa

rama.kesava.BVTS@pamho.net

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 10-28-2001).]

[darwin]

jndas prabhu,

It's not that kind of book. Please give me the benefit of the doubt. The guy that wrote the book has very much the same beliefs as gHari. For a long time I have wanted gHari to read it. You may read it too.

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 10-28-2001).]

[marco]

I`m new but I hope I can give you what I

know when I was in the seminary. Soon.

[gHari]

Darwin,

 

Yes, I have also seen the writings of the Essenes (questioning Paul's worth) and those of Thomas of the Gnostics, both of which are much much closer to the tenets we revere in Vaishnavism including reincarnation and vegetarianism.

 

I hear the truth where I see it. I am certainly not going to abandon the entire scripture, especially since many whom I will help will use the New Testament, as it is, as their belief system.

 

I am not about to spend more than a glance at this topic though, for the truth of the Bible is that it is not about who Jesus was but rather it is about who Jesus is. It is easy to perceive his antiseptic power in our lives, curing that reprobate mind (maya) ROMANS 1 was talking about that comes when we do not remember God. As Krsna said when He came in His original form, "Remember Me. Do not forget Me".

 

It is about seeking the Kingdom of God first. It is about surrender. It is the Bhagavad-gita For Idiots. Like a swan, we can separate the milk nectar from the muddy water; not with the chattering mind but with Supersoul, the Holy Ghost. At some point we must abandon words and get on with the real journey, into the heart, where the real disease if festering. Lord Caitanya gave us the Mahamantra exactly for this purpose.

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 10-30-2001).]

[Hedley]

Ok; I ask you now; How would you know?

Originally posted by darwin:

Your right. How's this:

 

"It is amazing how you took our dull discussion of biblical passages, and injected what you feel Jesus really said and meant, thereby fulfilling the purpose of this topic and making this topic nicely fit into it's category of spiritual discussions."

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 10-28-2001).]

 

[darwin]

Originally posted by Hedley:

Ok; I ask you now; How would you know?

Know what?