Faith vs. Literalism

[darwin]

shvu wrote:

Religion is not based on logic and hence questioning will invariably make one lose faith. If it was based on logic, there would have been no faith required, in the first place. Since it [a hidden God, karma, liberation, heaven, etc, etc] cannot be proven by logic, the concept of faith comes in.

 

Are you able to prove this statement, using logic, or is this an idea you hold onto by faith?

 

You just have to believe and don't ask questions.

 

What?!

 

Asking questions, is not some casual affair as some people seem to think. Questioning is a very intense process and the Questioner must be prepared to go all the way, even if it will result in losing faith. That is the idea of serious questioning. Now who is prepared to do that?

 

I don't understand. If I want to ask a friend allot of questions, must I also be prepared to chop him into little pieces and flush him down the toilet?

 

People who claim religion is based on logic, already have some pre-conceived ideas and question around these ideas. They never question their basic assumptions. And when they are not ready to do that, all other questions mean nothing.

 

I never would have questioned my basic assumptions if I had not met the devotees.

 

In the first place, one has to have faith that the BG is true.

 

This is not necessarily the first step.

 

The only way to progress here, is faith, for as long as one is questioning, one cannot move beyond this point.

 

When I have allot of faith, I have faith that I don't need to guard my faith against my questions.

 

Place faith in some Guru, and then accept everything he says in toto, for one cannot reject some of the Gurus ideas and yet claim to be his disciple.

 

Unless the Guru tells you to.

[shvu]

Are you able to prove this statement, using logic, or is this an idea you hold onto by faith?

I can prove this by logic.

 

You just have to believe and don't ask questions.

 

What?!

Don't be alarmed . Don't accept what I am saying. This is something, that you have to decide on your own. I believe, I have provided sufficient info to justify my statement. Also, there is nothing wrong in faith without doubting and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I am saying that is the only way to stay on the spiritual quest.

 

I don't understand. If I want to ask a friend allot of questions, must I also be prepared to chop him into little pieces and flush him down the toilet?

I don't understand this, sorry.

 

In the first place, one has to have faith that the BG is true.

 

This is not necessarily the first step.

You read the BG. It says, find a wise man and then do certain things. In order to do this, the first step is to believe in the BG. That is the idea.

 

Place faith in some Guru, and then accept everything he says in toto, for one cannot reject some of the Gurus ideas and yet claim to be his disciple.

 

Unless the Guru tells you to.

Like, for instance...?

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[darwin]

shvu prabhu,

The "what?!" was supposed to be a joke. You said don't ask questions, so I said "what?!". I don't have the energy to explain the other thing right now. Please read the the Bhaktivinoda Thakur page on my website. Also, I would like to try to find Elie Wiesel's writings about his religious understanding. I remember him saying that questions are more important than answers, and that the "spiritual master" tries to help one find better and better questions!

 

Here are some of my posts from when I was debating atheists:

========

I was not letting the atheist and some of the devotees define god the way they wanted to. The atheist told me that my definition of god was not logical. I don't see how a definition can be illogical. These are some of my definitions of god's qualities: god is all powerful and can do anything god wants to do. god can defy logic or change logic. god can exist or not exist, as god chooses. If god wants to, god can exist, then stop existing, and then start existing again. god can exist and not exist at the same time. etc. god can even defeat the insurmountable barrier not existing, of being a fairy tale, just a figment of my imagination, and then come into existence.

=================

Here is one way to approach that; If god does exist, then god can do anything, even change logic and change facts. If god exists now, then god can make it true that god did not exist 5 minutes ago. If god exists, then god can create a situation or a universe were god can not exist and then pop into existence. What if we are in that special type of universe created by god, were god does not exist but can pop into existence? What about a variation on that universe, what if god can exist for me and at the same time not exist for you? Sort of a theory of relativity for god.

====================

It would be possible for god to pop into existence in a universe where god does not exist if god had created that universe were god does not exist and had made the popping into existence of god from the non existence of god possible. My thought could cause god to pop into existence in that universe where god does not exist if that is what god wanted when god created that universe where god does not exist.

==========

No. If I accept, without proof of the existence of god, that god exists, my definition of god is not therefor illogical. What if I accept, without proof, that there is a piece of string in my pocket? Is my definition of string therefor illogical?

===============

I don't think a theory is illogical just because the theory proposes a situation where logic can be changed or circumvented. I think I remember reading, in Scientific American, about a theory in quantum physics that proposed a different logic to account for the behavior of twin photons. That theory is not illogical just because it proposes the existence of a situation where logic is altered.

 

I think a theory should be called illogical if that theory pretends to follow a certain logic but does not. I think my proposed properties of a possible god are just as logical as theories I have heard about the Big Bang that propose that our universe's laws and even the logic system that our universe operates under where created in the Big Bang and that a universe could have come out having different logic than our universe.

 

I want to have my definition of a possible god not tied to whether or not I believe in god or if god actually exists. Please help me to see if I can separate the definition of a possible god from the issue of whether or not god exists or whether I believe in god, if you think that is possible.

=========

[atheist wanted to know why god might want to not exist]

 

god might want to stop existing to reward his favorite atheists by having them be correct in their atheism.

 

god might want to stop existing to punish religious people.

 

god might want to stop existing to avoid embarrassment for all the bad things that happen.

 

god might want to stop existing to so god can enjoy doing the impossible by popping back into existence.

 

god might want to stop existing and then pop back into existence to demonstrate an answer to the question; "how did god come into being?".

 

god might be forced out of existence by the arguments of brilliant atheist.

 

god might want to do the Jesus thing. Jesus could suffer allot more if the whole thing was pointless.

==============

[atheist said: "If he is able to come back, then he didn't do a very good job of erasing himself from existence."]

 

No, just an incredibly great job popping back into existence.

 

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 11-05-2001).]

[shvu]

 

Good one, Darwin, but no relevance to this discussion, as I am not coming from an atheist's angle. Otherwise I would have been tempted to take on your statements and launch an argument.

 

The point here is faith vis-a-vis questioning. The Guru says there is a God, you accept his statement, because he cannot show you God. You have to go by faith. If you begin Questioning him with "how do you know?", "what if you are wrong?", etc, that ends everything. That is the point.

 

Cheers

 

[gHari]

Prabhupada had some timely input here:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000855.html

 

Time to get by the intellectual ego maintenance, and just do it.

[kailasa]

Probably you personally have checked up all open laws? Most likely you simply have accepted them on âåðó, rest is exact as well as all, having checked up from all it 1 %. Probably you have chosen a body in which you be, the country in which were born, language on which speak. The native living on an island COMPLETELY PRECISELY knows that 1) There is an island. 2) Ocean 3) it(he). On this island it(he) has put to itself(himself) a monument and as the native sometimes can assume that there is one more such island (ingeniously), can two (be phenomenal), when it(he) will have a drink even can assume that THREE!!! But that such islands of millions and billions, is not present it not probably!!! On this planet you will not make also step without the control, everywhere laws, there is no thing made without the plan, the wife supervises the husband, the husband supervises the machine, the police supervises movement, the police is supervised by(with) the state, but on it everything, all rest without the control, is casual. Everywhere continuous plans and control but the life has appeared casually from brahman. Brahman without the reasons and consequences has created of the reasons - investigation the world. Ingeniously. The happiness brahman was transformed to the material world from there is nothing to do(make) and now has decided(solved) to go back. Phenomenally. By a circle of one person, but the source is impersonal, I follow impersonal philosophy, clinging for each pole. If all is uniform, what sense to study qualities?

[darwin]

Thank you, shvu prabhu.

 

When I first started going to the Temple, I had been going every day for about 6 weeks, I asked (I don't think I should say his name because I am such a rascal around here) Swami; "how can we know?". Swami said "When krishna reveals himself." It was like an instant thing. I knew it was true. I know it doesn't translate well to this forum when I repeat it, but it was the big thing for me. I went from atheist who went to the Temple, willing to pretend to myself the god exists in order to heal my shattered mental health, to devotee in like one instant.

 

On your point about the question "what if you are wrong?", this may not always be a bad question, depending on your school of thought and your Guru. It may bad in our particular school of thought, etc, not because questioning is bad, but that we in this movement are trying to approach Krishna directly through love, through the Guru, and such questions might mess that up.

 

Thank you, gHari prabhu. I read your other post. I often don't have the patience to read our literature. Thank you for your assistance.

 

Hari Bol!

[gHari]

Regarding those dates given, it appears that Srila Bhaktivinoda did not hold them close in his own belief, but rather provides them as a concession to the rationalists as a requisite to preaching to them. Cuz it don't matter a whole helluvalot anyway, really. He notes in his Krsna-samhita, prior to listing the modern dates:

Personally we follow the judgment of time according to ancient custom, but in order to benefit people of the present age we will accept the modern system. as per excerpt

gHari

[gHari]

Evolutionists know that one species gives rise to another. They are only arrogant in speculating that they have any idea why. THAT is science. Their speculations have no place in 'science'.

 

The truth is available from the Vedas. It is all explained readily by the transformation or evolution of the soul.

 

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 11-05-2001).]

[gHari]

<table>

<td width="40%" valign=middle><center>

</center>

</td><td width="60%">

<center><h1>God of Nescience</h1>First Krsna consciousness webpage

to acknowledge that God does not exist.</center>

</TD></table>

 

 

 

Hiya. I am Daryn, and this is my other brother Daryn. From youth we were taught that religion is a pile of hogwash. Our goal with this page is to hopefully convince all of you of this fact. We will destroy the faith of the Christians in another venue, but if you happen to have any Christian leanings we would be happy to add our anti-Christian propaganda here.

 

Your comrades,

 

Daryn & Daryn

[darwin]

Dear devotees,

 

Please read these 2 articles and tell me what you think of them:

 

The first article, Literalism vs Essence by Ramacandra das, just came out today on Chakra. Ramacandra das seems to argue that he needs to blindly accept all of the Iskcon world view as true or he will begin a process of questioning everything and lose all faith.

 

The second article, On Leaving ISKCON, by Steven J. Gelberg (Subhananda das), 1991, has been on the internet for at least a couple of years. In it Steve Gelberg seems to describe how he has totally lost his faith and religion. Steve Gelberg was an ISKCON devotee for seventeen years, and most of that time he was a staff writer for the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

 

For many of us devotees, if we tried to adopt Ramacandra das' attitude, we would end up like Steve Gelberg. I am trying to find an entirely different, and personalist, approach for myself. See the Bhaktivinoda Thakur page on my website.

 

I will be thankful for any help you devotees can give me.

 

Thank you. Hari Bol!

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 11-05-2001).]

[darwin]

<table>

<td width="40%" valign=middle><center>

</center>

</td><td width="60%">

<center><h1>God of Science</h1>First Krsna Consciousness Webpage

To Acknowledge That We Evolved From Apes!</center>

</TD></table>

 

I know that the theory of evolution is true, and at the Temple they always say its not true, but I also know I need to go to the Temple and try to be a devotee. Its like what Woody Allen said about relationships at the end of his movie "Annie Hall"; There's a guy who complains: "My friend thinks he's a chicken" Someone asks: "Why don't you have him committed?" The guy says: "I need the eggs."

 

We all need the eggs. I hope this web page will help.

[shvu]

The first article, Literalism vs Essence by Ramacandra das, just came out today on Chakra. Ramacandra das seems to argue that he needs to blindly accept all of the Iskcon world view as true or he will begin a process of questioning everything and lose all faith.

It is true for all faiths. Religion is not based on logic and hence questioning will invariably make one lose faith. If it was based on logic, there would have been no faith required, in the first place. Since it [a hidden God, karma, liberation, heaven, etc, etc] cannot be proven by logic, the concept of faith comes in. You just have to believe and don't ask questions.

 

Asking questions, is not some casual affair as some people seem to think. Questioning is a very intense process and the Questioner must be prepared to go all the way, even if it will result in losing faith. That is the idea of serious questioning. Now who is prepared to do that? People who claim religion is based on logic, already have some pre-conceived ideas and question around these ideas. They never question their basic assumptions. And when they are not ready to do that, all other questions mean nothing.

 

As an example,

 

tadviddhi praNipAtena pariprashnena sevayA |

upadekshyanti te GYAnaM GYAninastattvadarshinaH || BG 4.34 ||

 

A rough translation would be,

 

Know that, through prostration, enquiry and service, the wise who have perceived the truth shall instruct you in wisdom.

 

How to identify a wise person? There is no surefire test to identify one and if that cannot be done, everything comes to a halt. In the first place, one has to have faith that the BG is true. The only way to progress here, is faith, for as long as one is questioning, one cannot move beyond this point. Place faith in some Guru, and then accept everything he says in toto, for one cannot reject some of the Gurus ideas and yet claim to be his disciple.

 

Hence, it is faith all the way. Logic and questioning have to go out of the window.

 

Cheers

 

 

[shvu]

 

From one of the above mentioned articles,

 

When Prabhupada predicted, once, that ninety percent of his disciples would eventually leave his movement, we, his disciples, were shocked that such a thing could be possible...

That is interesting. Did he mean, only 10% were really serious in their quest? Can anyone post or provide a link to the context of this statement?

 

Thanx

 

[gHari]

So, Daryn, you believe science has proved natural selection? You believe that sticking a cartoon of Lord Jagannatha up makes a webpage Krsna conscious?

 

That page is the antithesis of Krsna consciousness, just as Kamsa was the antithesis of Krsna consciousness, although he was always conscious of Krsna, trying to invent ways to kill Him. You pose paradoxes, but no solutions. When you've got something, then maybe a website ... until then you're just spreading your misery around.

 

Had you been able to assimilate the two seemingly divergent positions over the past eight months maybe the site would be more than less than useless.

 

It looks more like an atheist in sheep's clothing to me. A cloned sheep at that.

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 11-06-2001).]

[gHari]

It's unfortunate that the real Darwin did not read Prabhupada's book "Life Comes From Life". Then he would not have embarrassed half the scientific community with his speculations of a primordial ooze of inanimate elements somehow giving rise to all conscious life. This abiogenesis portion of Darwin's tale has all but been eliminated from the highly touted Theory of Evolution nowadays.

 

Krsna gives the soul a form best suited to fulfill its desires at the time of death, from 8,400,000 possible forms. How He has it arranged for that exact form to be born at that moment would indeed be a logistical nightmare for simple creatures like ourselves, even aided by the largest of super-computers. Yet it is but by a spark of His splendor that He creates and sustains all that is.

 

Chance has absolutely nothing to do with it. We can believe Krsna or we can believe Dr. Frog's latest speculations.

 

But don't let Dr. Frog cheat you into believing that he knows why the changes occur. He is so far from the Causal plane, he couldn't know why he seems to have independent thought, in a mechanical world where his brain cells are all completely governed by physical laws over which he has no control - yet he says he is not a robot.

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 11-06-2001).]

[Guest guest]

gHari: The truth is available from the Vedas.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, the Vedanta (1.1.3) states: sastrayonivat. The Truth is attainable by scriptures. Scriptures should cause vidya (God-knowledge) and not faith, nor religion. There is no guarantee that one would be freed from avidya due faith, or faith being the cause of vidya.

 

As well as there is no mention of any religious practices as the cause of that vidya.

 

[Guest guest]

gHari: Chance has absolutely nothing to do with it. We can believe Krsna or we can believe Dr. Frog's latest speculations.

 

Satyaraj: Caitanya seems to be favorable to the opinion that life evolves by chance. So, Perhaps Darwin has followed Caitanya’s opinion instead of your Prabhupada’s.

 

In C.c. Madhya 19.151 Caitanya has instructed Rupa as follows:

 

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

 

 

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krsna. By the mercy of both Krsna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.”

If a living entity out of many millions of wandering ones is very fortunate to get the conditions mentioned by him, he is clearly stating that chance is related with the success, or with that event.

 

Who can fathom the way that Hari plays His lilas? He use to play dices sometimes, and He also may hunt!

 

 

 

[gHari]

Distance to the Moon - The Moon-thing

[Guest guest]

What is the distance between Goloka and the Moon?

 

 

 

 

[darwin]

Originally posted by gHari:

Distance to the Moon - The Moon-thing

I am very exited about this book. Sadaputa tells us that it's ok to acknowledge that the earth is not flat and that the sun is farther from the earth than the moon is!

 

Sadaputa Dasa's book tells us that the Vedas don't really mean that the earth is flat, they mean that a map of the earth is flat! I think that his book goes on to say that the map is a complicated projection map so that all the distances come out wrong, just like a wall map makes the US. and Canada look bigger than Africa. I think he also says that it's got 2 or more maps thrown together into the same map, leaving us hopelessly confused. Until Sadaputa Dasa's book, of course.

 

Now let's hope that Sadaputa Dasa will use his brilliant method to analyze the Vedas to show us how they support the theory of evolution and the fact that we evolved from apes.

 

[gHari]

How can we say we evolved from apes, when we are not even this body? Never have been any body. Never will be any material bag of blood, mucus and stool. It is just so repugnant.

 

Such words are for stupid uneducated unenlightened puffed-up atheists. Such words only strengthen the illusion that the body has anything to do with our true identity. Prabhupada would freak at something so opposed to his preaching. "We are not this body" likely ranks only slightly behind "Chant Hare Krsna" in the all-time Prabhupada hit list.

 

It might be less objectionable and more beneficial to the ones who are attached to their mundane scholarship and brilliant minds to say something like the human form seems to have evolved from the ape form by a slight alteration of the gene. This seems to be how God arranges for the conditioned jiva spirit souls to migrate through the 8,400,000 species of life, finally entering the human form where liberation is at last possible. How He does it is really not very important, especially at this point in the game. Tell them what is important.

 

I have been able to fit the two worlds together. And of course they have to fit. But that's not where I started. First increase the intelligence by chanting; lose that static in the brain; see the world from Krsna's perspective and then you can see puny science as it is. Then the true face and arrogance of Dr. Frog, as he compares the size of his well to Krsna will be revealed to you.

[gHari]

EVOLUTION

 

The spirit soul when it falls into the material entanglement takes on each of 8,000,000 different forms before arriving at the human form. It begins at the most simple level of life and progressively inhabits one by one through increasing complexities until finally reaching the human form.

 

It is a continuously changing cycle of birth, old age, disease, and death. followed by rebirth in the next higher of the 8,000,000 species, and so on. From the human form, however, the jiva soul can move both down to any of the first 8,000,000 species or up through 400,000 human forms on the scale of complexity. Once travelling down they must again climb through every hellish species back to the human form.

 

This progression is quite evident in the fossil record. There is absolutely no discrepancy between the Vedic view and real science. The facts match; but Dr. Frog's speculations are off because he sees himself as the body - a temporary biochemical machine.

 

So he guesses: is it ten times greater than my well? He has no facility to perceive the soul. If he had, he would not say he evolved from an ape/paramecium/dandelion/etc. First find the soul, then all answers will be intuitive.

[darwin]

OK! Great! We are in agreement. Our bodies evolved from apes, but we are not this body. Now can you help me to reinvigorate my devotional life? I would like to start preaching Krishna Consciousness again.

 

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 11-06-2001).]

[gHari]

There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.