Bhakti- Padma Puraa.na

[SaRup]

“…Padma Puraa.na points to a southern origin for bhakti, and provides a clue to the geographical location of some Puraa.nic traditions as well” (Demmitt & van Buitenen 1978:11).

 

 

“ ‘Bhakti was born in Draavidha, grew up in Kar.naataka, became worn out in MaharaaS.tra and Gurjera, sought refuge with her two sons Knowledge and Dispassion in Vrindavana, and regained her vigor there… Enough of vows, sacred fords, disciples, sacrifices, discourse about knowledge, faith alone bestows release!(Padma 6.189.51; 190.22)’” (Demmitt & van Buitenen 1978:11).

 

 

[SaRup]

Originally posted by Satyaraja on “Faith vs. Literalism”

 

Satyaraj: Yes, the Vedanta (1.1.3) states: sastrayonivat. The Truth is attainable by scriptures. Scriptures should cause vidya (God-knowledge) and not faith, nor religion. There is no guarantee that one would be freed from avidya due faith, or faith being the cause of vidya.

As well as there is no mention of any religious practices as the cause of that vidya.

 

[SaRup]

Given the above - could it not then be argued that the Padma Puraa.na is influenced by the Christian notion of ‘belief” or “faith” as sufficient for salvation to occur? That is - the belief that “one only needs to have faith in Christ” and one will attain salvation.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by SaRup (edited 11-06-2001).]

[shvu]

 

This speculation has always been there, by some historians. They believe Bhakti originated from western, christian sources. Some also believe Madhva's [13th century] concepts of hell, etc were influenced by the Bible.

 

Initially there was also seculation that the charachter Krishna was influenced by that of Jesus. The logic was, birth in a prison is "similar" to birth in a barn. Carrying the baby under divine protection to flee from it's enemies and of course, all the miracles. But after research, they concluded that the story of Krishna was at least 200 years older than that of Jesus, if not older.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

 

SaRup: Given the above - could it not then be argued that the Padma Puraa.na is influenced by the Christian notion of ‘belief” or “faith” as sufficient for salvation to occur? That is - the belief that “one only needs to have faith in Christ” and one will attain salvation.

 

Satyaraj: Not really. Padma Purana and other smrti texts are only following Vedanta’s aphorisms regarding some kinds of mukti. “Faith” may cause mukti if one is to be placed into the samvyoma of another mukta. This is possible too.

 

I wouldn’t say that Jesus is the only way, but in fact he is a way. Muktas like him exist in a state of non-separation from the Lord (Vedanta-sutra 4.4.4) and they can create their own worlds into the samvyoma of their hearts to live there with their friends, relatives, and all the living entities that they love (Vedanta-sutra 4.4.8). A mukta like him is under the control of no one but the Lord, therefore he is the master of all and has no other master (Vedanta-sutra 4.4.9). As the Gospel says Jesus is the owner of his Father’s realm.

 

One may attain mukti by Hari’s free will and grace without following any other mukta (guru or master) simply by surpassing avidya by Hari’s Grace. This is possible and there are countless examples of that. Even immobile and insentient creatures had attained moksa by Hari’s grace without following any guru. Others may go to a world created by a mukta to relish with Hari in that same environment.

 

Mukta’s satya-sankalpa is something perfectly established into Vedanta and by studding mukta’s affairs one easily may attain the conclusion that Jesus, Caitanya , Ramakrisha, Mirabai, San Juan de La Cruz, and many others had manifested the symptoms described therein. If one is eager to enter into their worlds, Hari Himself will place him there.

 

 

[SaRup]

Namaste

 

Certainly I agree that "Bhakti was born in Draavidha," in the time of yore. But look at what the "Padma Puraa.na" says. Bhakti did not reach Vrindavan until a later stage.

 

But what is important to ask here is:

 

When did the notion that “faith alone bestows release! (Padma 6. 190.22)” first arise - if not in the Padma (4th C –1000th C CE)?

 

Shvu: “Some also believe Madhva's [13th century] concepts of hell, etc were influenced by the Bible.”

 

Yes I believe it was Basham who promoted that view. Certainly the notion of nitya-badda (spelling??) is unique to Madhva as with his views on distinct dualistic categorical distribution in transcendence (ie a distinct division between the divine and the jiva (his dwaita-vedanta) however, the notion of “hell” pre-dates Christianity and is more a Persian view. Remember the “Christian Creed” does not speak of “Hell” it only speaks of earth and sky

 

sr

 

[SaRup]

Originally posted by SaRup:

But what is important to ask here is:

 

When did the notion that “faith alone bestows release! (Padma 6. 190.22)” first arise - if not in the Padma (4th C –1000th C CE)?

 

sr

 

Originally posted by Satyaraja:

Satyaraja:Muktas like him exist in a state of non-separation from the Lord (Vedanta-sutra 4.4.4) and they can create their own worlds into the samvyoma of their hearts to live there with their friends, relatives, and all the living entities that they love (Vedanta-sutra 4.4.8). A mukta like him is under the control of no one but the Lord, therefore he is the master of all and has no other master (Vedanta-sutra 4.4.9). As the Gospel says Jesus is the owner of his Father’s realm.

sr

Do you mean that the notion that “faith alone bestows release" first arise in the Vedanta Sutras?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by SaRup (edited 11-06-2001).]

[Guest guest]

SaRup: Do you mean that the notion that “faith alone bestows release" first arise in the Vedanta Sutras?

 

Satyaraj: No, Vedanta never states that “faith alone bestows release." Sruti’s affair is to give an original idea, not an inference like that one made by smrti text (Padma Purana).

 

In that case sruti is stating that a mukta can create worlds within the ether of his heart and there he may reciprocate with Hari and he may invite those who he loves to live therein. Now one should believe in that premise. Here is the point where “faith” is an inference to the sruti’s idea on “to live in a mukta’s heart as a mukta.”

 

For certain Vedanta also establish other paths to moksa than that one.

 

[SaRup]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Satyaraja

 

“to live in a mukta’s heart as a mukta.”

 

In this context - how much of this is mukti?

 

How and why does mukti differ from moksa?

 

[This message has been edited by SaRup (edited 11-06-2001).]

[Guest guest]

SaRup: In this context - how much of this is mukti?

 

Satyaraj: Actually Vedanta does not states that this is real moksa or mukti. In fact these worlds created by muktas are not stable, as muktas can change their satya-sankalpa as they like. Vedanta also does not make it clear if those “living entities” that a mukta may invite to live in the samvyoma of his heart are from the conditioned state and which mukta’s previous lifetime they are from. What mother he would invite to live there? All of his mothers from so many lifetimes, or only a special one? What friends, relatives, disciples, and so on?

 

So, we may also formulate an inference that these mukta’s partners are not actually from the conditioned world, but from Vaikuntha, or that they are only ‘virtual’ partners, not real jivas, as a mukta cannot really create another jiva. What happens with those invited muktas when their ‘boss’ suddenly changes his satya-sankalpa? Do those worlds enter into a pralaya?

 

Therefore we can formulate countless inferences (smrtis) on that sruti’s idea on “to live in a mukta’s heart as a mukta,” and one may have ‘faith’ or not in those inferences.

 

Does that 'faith' may cause vidya?