I might as well be talking to myself

[Janus]

>>More scientists disbelieve abiogenesis (life evolved from matter) than believe it.<<

 

>>Actually I think the real scientists there were quite intriqued with the knowledge from the Vedas. They wanted to believe in God, but the Biblical representation of creation as understood by Christian theologians was so very implausible given the physical dating of the universe. etc.<<

 

>>I left unscathed determined never to waste so much time again. There are people who are ready to hear in this world. All-in-all the evolution subject can be classified amongst the species of red herrings.

 

>>The problem in accepting as authorities the scientists whose speculations about the fossils found and not found form the theory of evolution is that so much of the Vedas will now be difficult for your mind to accept.

 

>>>Initially we are all on the mental platform. How can one accept a Satya Yuga, Tretya Yuga or even Lord Ramacandra?

Prabhupada said "They are accepting bones as their authority, we are accepting intelligence as ours". That intelligence being the Vedas. It may prove more efficient to accept the Vedas and then see where the scientists have made their hasty conclusions in areas which contradict the Vedic understanding of the way it is. From that more respectful perspective, it is quite easy to become content and actually rise above the 'science' claims.<<

 

>>Soul vision totally absent among subhumans.

 

Comment It really doesn’t matter what scientists believe or disbelieve when they are fattened up and content. Whoever feeds and funds them though cannot be seen to have a very high tolerance for the proposition that there is much profit to be made by relinquishing their higher authority into the hands of competent spiritual authorities. Indeed they do not even believe that there are competent spiritual authorities, not in a spiritual sense for they themselves are entirely confidant of the World View that they preach which is fundamental materialism, the doctrine that allows humanity the profoundest devaluation, into process and product.

 

That is not to say that the mainstream spiritual traditions are not "well" regarded.

 

They are and they have been since the antiquity of European Romanized Christianity when their value as a tool for conquest and repression was first recognized, which first mistranslated the Bible beginning with Genesis 1.24 in order to remove the souls from animals and thus to allow the inhumane treatment of them, otherwise proscribed in Leviticus.

Later Augustine amended this doctrine to the position that animals share a group soul. Perhaps his conscience bothered him, but that we will never know.

 

The point is that the mainstream spiritual traditions and scientific disciplines are headed by those who are on the animal platform and who thus, like dogs imprinting whoever is feeding them (or allowing them to continue to exist) as top dog. What they say to you about what they believe personally is entirely different than the position which they support in their work and in their writings, and once such a doctrine as Darwinian evolution has been accepted by the Supreme Spiritual Authority of the West (I discount Protestantism as incoherent past their ability to orchestrate nuclear holocaust and world end in the surface of their fantasy), by the Catholic Church, which it has been, there are no more holdouts, the battle is won, the devaluation of life, all life into simple cogs and wheels, into grist has been made complete.

 

Devotees are no help who are imagining themselves to be:

 

>> Initially we are all on the mental platform.<<

 

>> How can one accept a Satya Yuga, Tretya Yuga or even Lord Ramacandra?<<

 

Devotees imagining themselves to be “off” the mental platform are doing just that, they are "imagining" If you are not liberated, if indeed you still misidentify your material relationships (subtle and gross) with yourself, and please understand that libertion is not a matter of a conceptual understanding, then you are still in May and still on the mental platform.

 

We are all on the mental platform 100% until we are Brahman realized, until that very instant, that is a fact corroborated not only by shastra but by a simple understanding of the science of optics. While material science cannot appreciate the supersubjective realm of transcendence it can explain material situation and relationship, including that of consciousness although it fails to discern what consciousness is the nature of.

 

The laws of optics explain how we are on the mental platform, always, that we are never for a moment in conditioned life off of it. Everything that we see, the sun, the moon, the entire universe appears before us to our conscious perception no where else that we have any perception of it except within our own tiny heads, in our "minds eye" or imagination. All of reality that is non-spiritual that we have any awareness of takes place upon the mental platform.

 

The reason things are heavy and light, sweet or sour, splendid or dull, blue or red has to do with our processes of mentation to a significant degree. One does in fact edit unconsciously what one sees, tastes, touches, etc before one ever has any conscious perception of it.

 

The Vedas teach this, but he Vedas are written in a much more complex language than we speak or write in, but which is proving to be amazingly capable and versatile in it’s ability to translate them, just that most of this type of work has yet to be done and we are paddling against the stream, or swimming against the current generated by fundamental materialism, the accepted doctrine of the Machine Age World View which all of us are born into and so we are left with metaphors, word symbols such as “mental platform” which 99.999 % of Srila Prabhupadas devotees that I have spoken to don’t really have a clue as to the meaning of. Srila Prabhupada agreed with this assessment of his devotees. When one of them was talking about sometimes being in Maya Srila Prabhupada shut him down, asking him whenever was there a time when he wasn’t in Maya?

I am not an idle critic which permits my critique, just the amount of persons going around imagining that

1. That they are liberated, no longer in Maya (self identification with the material energies; gross and subtle; i.e the mind) and 2.

2. That they are Vaisnavas, makes me fear and seems also disproportionate to the facts as they have been stated by Guru, Sadhu and Shastra, that liberation is in fact a very rare thing and that a liberated soul acting in Krsna consciousness wasn’t even going to appear until the third generation of his disciples (selective memory?) What hubris, such overweening and asinine pride to think that we just by our good fortune at being allowed the association of Srila Prabhupada and other Vaisnavas would automatically be qualified. Out of many, many thousands of persons some few may actually endeavor for self perfection and yet not only are we imagining that we are liberated, that we are no longer on the mental platform but that we are manjaris or the peacock feather in Krsna’s cap. So progress means that we have to leave off more than our bad habits. Srila Prabhupada said that we were not a society of vegetarians, what to speak of a society of sexual repressives. Concerning the latter, he seemed at times to be quite Freudian seeming to imply that our motivation for doing anything was sexual. Again, this has to do with lack of complexity in our thought rather than a lack of complexity of the English language. That time will come about but until that it does there is no one among us fit to set in the acarya’s chair for the lack of this first of two qualifications (which is why rtvik is authorized until then in regards to the acharya). Individual gurus and followings are autonomous and that is something else, but as far as the acharya is concerned until one is both in fact able to counter and to explain all Vaisnava philosophy not only from a unity of perspective (non-sectarian) but also with a ability to integrate fully our understandings and thus provide us full convincement this lack of ability will produce the same wishy washiness that occaisions such comfortable complacency in the so called Vaisnava camp.

Soul vision totally absent among subhumans.

 

To everyone who is functioning as an animal and within the mixed modes of passion and ignorance and whereas some slight glimmer can be seen from the position of situation within the mode of goodness real spiritual cognition awakes only as the soul does.

 

[Tarun]

Janusji: Many good points. It all boils down to 3 modes.

That's why ZrI KRSNa BhagavAn dedicates so many GItA zlokas to their expalanation.

I just posted a detailed explanation & history of how Kosher stamping on food packaging (U & K) has become much more a business than any religious observation.

Unfortunately, our moderator chose to erase/delete it.

It was filled with quotes from respectable Jews admitting these facts.

So all 3 modes apparently influence our IndiaDivine Forum posts' lifespans as well.

No problem.

Truth & Fact remain Truth & Fact no matter what.

Dirty Laundry is just that: dirty laundry

It needs to be aired out, washed, rinsed, squeeze-dried.

Someone in even-minded non-sectarian goodness

can easily distinguish between Anti-semitism, Judaism & Zionism.

Someone in goodness can easily distinguish God's Biblical pre & post flood instructions.

Someone in goodness can easily comprehend "Dead Flesh is never Kosher" no matter how many 'holymen' attempt to bless it.

Neither can "Dead Flesh become Halal".

These 2 extremely gross dharmik deviations are directly, indirectly & wholistically responsible for over 90% of all Kaliyuga crime & subsequent suffering.

All of it.

Perhaps it's the very fact our article drove, or I should say, began to drive so historically root dee>ee^ee>eep into this issue?

Naked truth too revealing for some?

Is this why our beloved moderator so quickly opted heading back toward safer 'shallower' shores?

Or maybe he's less familiar with GItA 2.2 than I suspect?

Or is it he's simply weary of buzzwords?

CNN supposedly started out something fresh, exciting.

CNN has now become a rag, trash, useless, worthless entity.

Don't do IndiaDivine the same.

Enough said/typed for now.

Let him speak for himself.

All Glories to JNdas' service. All glories to ZrI Guru & Gauranga.

 

[This message has been edited by Tarun (edited 11-14-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I have appointed someone (a non-participant) to monitor the forums (since I don't have time to do it). I have given him a standing order to delete anything which is irrelevant, offensive, or just purposely meaningless.

 

I suppose your deleted posts fall within one of those categories.

 

[gHari]

<table><td width="30%">

<font color=blue>HEY,

WHO's DRIVING

THAT CHARIOT,

ANYWAY?</font>

 

 

<center>

<img src=http://www.iskcon.org.uk/ies/images/BK-07.jpg width=200 height=300></center>

 

 

</td><td width="70%">

<UL><center>PLATFORM - WHENCE IT CAME

 

 

</center>

The mind spins around on its own, shuffling impressions.

 

Or the mind accepts in a descending process starting from Krsna, through Paramatma, through the atma, and then through the intelligence.

 

"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the intelligence by which they can come to Me". - Krsna, on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra.

 

It is the picture on the cover of the Gita. Who drives the chariot? That is the answer, and that is the question. Is the mind too proud to accept from the superior authority? When the desire is great enough and the honest mind finally realizes its inability to understand, then it is ready.

 

[Janus]

Beautiful horses aren't they?

[gHari]

Capable of captivating for millions of lifetimes.

[Janus]

Race?

[mel9]

Originally posted by Janus:

Race?

why don`t you join the formula 1 with michael shumacher and his ferrari as your car to smashdom? better drive carefully.

 

 

[Janus]

The chariot and the four horses driven by Krsna are not under the direction of the material energies, not are they the horses themselves material energies, As Srila Prabhupada explained to us the artists of our movement were painting windows for us to see into the Spiritual Sky, into the pastimes of Sri Krsna and His devotees.

Thus the only thing that one can question is the nature of our apprehension.

Viewing the deity as being made of stone or wood is pretty much the same as considering Krsna's paraphenalia, his friends or the gift of horses (animal friends), it is pretty much the product of our atheistic and hopeless mentality which still regards Krsna Himself even as a myth.

So I am getting attitude because I referred to the horses drawing Krsna and Arjunas chariot as being beautiful, wheras if I had said that Krsna was beautiful, or even Arjuna I would have not been the object of such attitude. Why? Because the persons expressing such attitude did, before this post consider themselves as being unbewildered. What's interesting to me is that if I had said that a flower held by Sri Rahda was beautiful I doubt that I'd have got such an attitude, or if I'd referred to the feather in Krsna's cap as beautiful. It seems that we hate more the nature that's closest to us, fauna, and that also our conception of what's associated with Krsna ends when it doesn't touch his skin.

Someone can tell us the difference between Krsna's nara-lila and human like pastimes much better than I and anyone who knows can correct me if I am wrong.

Hari bol

[gHari]

Prabhupada relates in As It Is that the Upanishads show that the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the senses (horses):

BG 9.34

 

For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krishna, and to subdue it, I think, is more difficult than controlling the wind.

 

PURPORT

The mind is so strong and obstinate that it sometimes overcomes the intelligence, although the mind is supposed to be subservient to the intelligence. For a man in the practical world who has to fight so many opposing elements, it is certainly very difficult to control the mind. Artificially, one may establish a mental equilibrium toward both friend and enemy, but ultimately no worldly man can do so, for this is more difficult than controlling the raging wind. In the Vedic literature (Katha Upanisad 1.3.3-4) it is said:

 

atmanam rathinam viddhi

sariram ratham eva ca

buddhim tu sarathim viddhi

manah pragraham eva ca

 

indriyani hayan ahur

visayams tesu go-caran

atmendriya-mano-yuktam

bhoktety ahur manisinah

 

"The individual is the passenger in the car of the material body, and intelligence is the driver. Mind is the driving instrument, and the senses are the horses. The self is thus the enjoyer or sufferer in the association of the mind and senses. So it is understood by great thinkers." Intelligence is supposed to direct the mind, but the mind is so strong and obstinate that it often overcomes even one's own intelligence, as an acute infection may surpass the efficacy of medicine. Such a strong mind is supposed to be controlled by the practice of yoga, but such practice is never practical for a worldly person like Arjuna. And what can we say of modern man? The simile used here is appropriate: one cannot capture the blowing wind. And it is even more difficult to capture the turbulent mind. The easiest way to control the mind, as suggested by Lord Caitanya, is chanting "Hare Krishna," the great mantra for deliverance, in all humility. The method prescribed is sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayoh: one must engage one's mind fully in Krishna. Only then will there remain no other engagements to agitate the mind.

 

In the original edition there is also a painting of the five chariot horses reeling wildly, each with a different sense, like eyes, nose, ear afixed to their harnesses. The poor chariot driver is in total panic for the chariot is out of control. Hence, the question: Hey, who's driving that chariot, anyway?

 

gHari

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 11-19-2001).]

[Tarun]

Janusji: U'r right on target. Don't be discouraged.

Your mahAjan Lord Ziva takes it to the maxi, saying:

"parataram... tadiyAnAm samarcanam"

The further from Vraj, the better.

The further from "Homebase" your worship, the more potent.

The further away your bhajan, the more pleasing to Him & Her.

Certain gurus may not agree & that's good.

Easier to identify their level and/or their audience's.

[Janus]

>>Prabhupada relates in As It Is that the Upanishads show that the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the senses (horses):

 

By the five senses GHari. Although you mentined that there are five senses near the end of your post you do not mention it now at the beginning.

Why? Because you cannot count?

I can. In the picture that you posted up of Lord Krsna, Arjuna and the chariot there are only four horses, one, two, three four. Essential to the appearance that you are succesfully countering my assertions (which you are only seeking to do out of egoism) is that others do not recognize that you are not talking about the same thing that I am talking about, that and that you have Srila Prabhupada in your pocket.

Had you begun with

"...the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the FIVE senses (horses"

instead of just:

"...the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the senses (horses)

people might have suspected that we were naot talking about the same chariot or the same horses.

That you mention that there are five senses or horses near the end of your post

indicates that by that time you have you think that you have succesfully duped the innocent reader and that you no longer have to take such care at editing.

The problem with your arguements are numerous, most powerfully is your equasion which refutes the existence of Sri Krsna as being anything other than a metaphor for ones own intelligence.

 

"The individual is the passenger in the car of the material body, and intelligence is the driver. "

 

Sri Krsna is driving the chariot in the picture that you posted up, but if we are to accept your explanation then Sri Krsna is only a symbol for our own intelligence, for our very own minds.

 

You are spouting Mayavadi philosophy just in order to win some brownie points. The problem is is that your posts appear to some to be those made by someone who represents Srila Prabhupada and thus the innocents may go away from a reading of your post with the impression that Krsna is as your misuse of Srila Prabhupdas words make Him appear to be, just a symbol for ones own mind.

 

 

"In the original edition there is also a painting of the five chariot horses reeling wildly, each with a different sense, like eyes, nose, ear afixed to their harnesses. The poor chariot driver is in total panic for the chariot is out of control. Hence, the question: Hey, who's driving that chariot, anyway?

gHari"

 

This shows how crazy you have become in your persuit of your own egos agenda. If we are to apply your reasoning as you suggest that we do to the chariot of Lord Krsna then the chariot is out of control, the horses reeling and the chariot driver who is Krsna Himself in a panic.

 

Whose driving your chariot GHari? Whoever, you should get a new driver, one perhaps who values service to the guru to whom he professes to be a devotee of more than he values his own quest for false prestige.

 

You can make only one reply to this post that will satisfy me that you are sincere in your claim that you are Srila Prabhupada's devotee or any servant of Krsna's devotees at all, and unless you make it I will account you just to be a Mayavadi and not anyone to address mano e mano. I will of course reserve the right to alert persons to your abuse of Srila Prabhupadas philosophy in the manner of a devil quoting scripture for its own ends.

Hari bol

 

 

--

BG 9.34

For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krishna, and to subdue it, I think, is more difficult than controlling the wind.

 

PURPORT

The mind is so strong and obstinate that it sometimes overcomes the intelligence, although the mind is supposed to be subservient to the intelligence. For a man in the practical world who has to fight so many opposing elements, it is certainly very difficult to control the mind. Artificially, one may establish a mental equilibrium toward both friend and enemy, but ultimately no worldly man can do so, for this is more difficult than controlling the raging wind. In the Vedic literature (Katha Upanisad 1.3.3-4) it is said:

 

atmanam rathinam viddhi

sariram ratham eva ca

buddhim tu sarathim viddhi

manah pragraham eva ca

 

indriyani hayan ahur

visayams tesu go-caran

atmendriya-mano-yuktam

bhoktety ahur manisinah

 

"The individual is the passenger in the car of the material body, and intelligence is the driver. Mind is the driving instrument, and the senses are the horses. The self is thus the enjoyer or sufferer in the association of the mind and senses. So it is understood by great thinkers." Intelligence is supposed to direct the mind, but the mind is so strong and obstinate that it often overcomes even one's own intelligence, as an acute infection may surpass the efficacy of medicine. Such a strong mind is supposed to be controlled by the practice of yoga, but such practice is never practical for a worldly person like Arjuna. And what can we say of modern man? The simile used here is appropriate: one cannot capture the blowing wind. And it is even more difficult to capture the turbulent mind. The easiest way to control the mind, as suggested by Lord Caitanya, is chanting "Hare Krishna," the great mantra for deliverance, in all humility. The method prescribed is sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayoh: one must engage one's mind fully in Krishna. Only then will there remain no other engagements to agitate the mind.

 

--

 

 

In the original edition there is also a painting of the five chariot horses reeling wildly, each with a different sense, like eyes, nose, ear afixed to their harnesses. The poor chariot driver is in total panic for the chariot is out of control. Hence, the question: Hey, who's driving that chariot, anyway?

gHari

 

 

[Janus]

Vaisnavanum yata Sambhu

 

" Is this the Region, this the Soil, the Clime, Said then the lost Arch-Angel, this the seat That we must change for Heaven, this mornful gloom for that celestial light. Be it so, since hee who now is Sovran can dispose and bit what shall be right: fardest from him is best Whom reason hath equall'd, force hath made supreme Above his equals. Farewell happy Fields Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrors, hail infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell Receive thy new Possesor: One who brings a mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heaven."

Milton - Paradise Lost

 

It's been over 25 year since I left Paradise, that temple on Capitol Hill in Seattle, that happy blissful time rather than stay for what even then before his disapearance that Sril Prabhupada or Lord Krsna revealed to me was innevitable.

 

"Janusji: U'r right on target. Don't be discouraged.

 

Srila Prabhupada told me this also, sending out letters to every temple in the entire world telling to provide me at a difficult moment with such reassurance.

 

"Your mahAjan Lord Ziva takes it to the maxi, saying:

"parataram... tadiyAnAm samarcanam"

 

The further from Vraj, the better.

The further from "Homebase" your worship, the more potent.

The further away your bhajan, the more pleasing to Him & Her.

Certain gurus may not agree & that's good.

Easier to identify their level and/or their audience's."

 

Srila Prabhupada or Krsna gave me a gift, an eyesight, an actually faculty of awareness that strenghthens me for this sojourn untill some lifetimes from hence I can return to my paradise and again busy myself in the most blissful of occupations, cleaning the floors.

 

Thanks for the encouragement Tarun.

Hare Krsna

 

[gHari]

I don't get 'the debate' or any 'attitude', but I now agree with your premise: you "might as well be talking to yourself".

[Caitanyachandra]

<table><td width="30%">

<font color=blue>HEY,

WHO's FIGHTI'N In that new

THAT CHARIOT,

that way!?</font>

 

 

<center>

<img src=http://www.iskcon.org.uk/ies/images/BK-07.jpg width=200 height=300></center>

 

 

<UL><center>PLATFORM - WHENCE IT CAME

 

 

</center>

The mind spins around on its own, shuffling impressions.

 

Or the mind accepts in a descending process starting from Krsna, through Paramatma, through the atma, and then through the intelligence.

 

"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the intelligence by which they can come to Me". - Krsna, on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra.

 

[gHari]

</td></table>

Of horses and buggies; mayavadis and masters:

SB 1.9.21

 

sarvAtmanaH sama-dRzo

hy advayasyAnahaGkRteH

tat-kRtaM mati-vaiSamyaM

niravadyasya na kvacit

 

sarva-AtmanaH--of one who is present in everyone's heart; sama-dRzaH--of one who is equally kind to one and all; hi--certainly; advayasya--of the Absolute; anahaGkRteH--free from all material identity of false ego; tat-kRtam--everything done by Him; mati--consciousness; vaiSamyam--differentiation; niravadyasya--freed from all attachment; na--never; kvacit--at any stage.

 

Being the Absolute Personality of Godhead, He is present in everyone's heart. He is equally kind to everyone, and He is free from the false ego of differentiation. Therefore whatever He does is free from material inebriety. He is equibalanced.

 

PURPORT

Because He is absolute, there is nothing different from Him. He is kaivalya; there is nothing except Himself. Everything and everyone is the manifestation of His energy, and thus He is present everywhere by His energy, being nondifferent from it. The sun is identified with every inch of the sun rays and every molecular particle of the rays. Similarly, the Lord is distributed by His different energies. He is ParamAtmA, or the Supersoul, present in everyone as the supreme guidance, and therefore He is already the chariot driver and counsel of all living beings. When He, therefore, exhibits Himself as chariot driver of Arjuna, there is no change in His exalted position. It is the power of devotional service only that demonstrates Him as the chariot driver or the messenger. Since He has nothing to do with the material conception of life because He is absolute spiritual identity, there is for Him no superior or inferior action. Being the Absolute Personality of Godhead, He has no false ego, and so He does not identify Himself with anything different from Him. The material conception of ego is equibalanced in Him. He does not feel, therefore, inferior by becoming the chariot driver of His pure devotee. It is the glory of the pure devotee that only he can bring about service from the affectionate Lord.

 

SB 4.26.1-3

 

King PuraJjana Goes to the Forest to Hunt, and His Queen Becomes Angry

 

nArada uvAca

 

sa ekadA maheSvAso

rathaM paJcAzvam Azu-gam

dvISaM dvi-cakram ekAkSaM

tri-veNuM paJca-bandhuram

 

eka-razmy eka-damanam

eka-nIDaM dvi-kUbaram

paJca-praharaNaM sapta-

varUthaM paJca-vikramam

 

haimopaskaram Aruhya

svarNa-varmAkSayeSudhiH

ekAdaza-camU-nAthaH

paJca-prastham agAd vanam

 

nAradaH uvAca--NArada said; saH--King PuraJjana; ekadA--once upon a time; mahA-iSvAsaH--carrying his strong bow and arrows; ratham--chariot; paJca-azvam--five horses; Azu-gam--going very swiftly; dvi-ISam--two arrows; dvi-cakram--two wheels; eka--one; akSam--axle; tri--three; veNum--flags; paJca--five; bandhuram--obstacles; eka--one; razmi--rope, rein; eka--one; damanam--chariot driver; eka--one; nIDam--sitting place; dvi--two; kUbaram--posts to which the harnesses are fixed; paJca--five; praharaNam--weapons; sapta--seven; varUtham--coverings or ingredients of the body; paJca--five; vikramam--processes; haima--golden; upaskaram--ornaments; Aruhya--riding on; svarNa--golden; varmA--armor; akSaya--inexhaustible; iSu-dhiH--quiver; ekAdaza--eleven; camU-nAthaH--commanders; paJca--five; prastham--destinations, objectives; agAt--went; vanam--to the forest.

 

The great sage NArada continued: My dear King, once upon a time King PuraJjana took up his great bow, and equipped with golden armor and a quiver of unlimited arrows and accompanied by eleven commanders, he sat on his chariot driven by five swift horses and went to the forest named PaJca-prastha. He took with him in that chariot two explosive arrows. The chariot itself was situated on two wheels and one revolving axle. On the chariot were three flags, one rein, one chariot driver, one sitting place, two poles to which the harness was fixed, five weapons and seven coverings. The chariot moved in five different styles, and five obstacles lay before it. All the decorations of the chariot were made of gold.

 

PURPORT

These three verses explain how the material body of the living entity is under the control of the three qualities of the external energy. The body itself is the chariot, and the living entity is the owner of the body, as explained in Bhagavad-gItA (2.13): dehino 'smin yathA dehe. The owner of the body is called the dehI, and he is situated within this body, specifically within the heart. The living entity is driven by one chariot driver. The chariot itself is made of three guNas, three qualities of material nature, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gItA (18.61): yantrArUDhAni mAyayA. The word yantra means "carriage." The body is given by material nature, and the driver of that body is ParamAtmA, the Supersoul. The living entity is seated within the chariot. This is the actual position.

 

The living entity is always being influenced by the three qualities--sattva (goodness), rajas (passion) and tamas (ignorance). This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gItA (7.13). Tribhir guNamayair bhAvaiH: the living entity is bewildered by the three qualities of material nature. These three qualities are described in this verse as three flags. By a flag, one can come to know who the owner of the chariot is; similarly, by the influence of the three qualities of material nature, one can easily know the direction in which the chariot is moving. In other words, one who has eyes to see can understand how the body is being driven, influenced by the particular type of quality of material nature. In these three verses the activity of the living entity is described to prove how the body becomes influenced by the quality of ignorance, even when a person wants to be religious. NArada Muni wanted to prove to King PrAcInabarhiSat that the King was being influenced by the tamo-guNa, the quality of ignorance, even though the King was supposed to be very religious.

 

According to karma-kANDIya, the process of fruitive activities, a person performs various sacrifices directed by the Vedas, and in all those sacrifices animal-killing, or experimenting on the life of animals to test the power of Vedic mantras, is enjoined. Animal-killing is certainly conducted under the influence of the mode of ignorance. Even though one may be religiously inclined, animal sacrifice is recommended in the zAstras, not only in the Vedas but even in the modern scriptures of other sects. These animal sacrifices are recommended in the name of religion, but actually animal sacrifice is meant for persons in the mode of ignorance. When such people kill animals, they can at least do so in the name of religion. However, when the religious system is transcendental, like the VaiSNava religion, there is no place for animal sacrifice. Such a transcendental religious system is recommended by KRSNa in Bhagavad-gItA (18.66):

 

sarva-dharmAn parityajya

mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja

ahaM tvAM sarva-pApebhyo

mokSayiSyAmi mA zucaH

 

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." Because King PrAcInabarhiSat was engaged in performing various sacrifices in which animals were killed, NArada Muni pointed out that such sacrifices are influenced by the mode of ignorance. From the very beginning of SrImad-BhAgavatam (1.1.2) it is said: projjhita-kaitavo 'tra. All kinds of religious systems that are involved in cheating are completely kicked out of SrImad-BhAgavatam. In the bhagavad-dharma, the religion dealing with one's relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, animal sacrifice is not recommended. In the performance of saGkIrtana-yajJa--Hare KRSNa, Hare KRSNa, KRSNa KRSNa, Hare Hare/ Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare--there is no recommendation for animal sacrifices.

 

In these three verses, King PuraJjana's going to the forest to kill animals is symbolic of the living entity's being driven by the mode of ignorance and thus engaging in different activities for sense gratification. The material body itself indicates that the living entity is already influenced by the three modes of material nature and that he is driven to enjoy material resources. When the body is influenced by the mode of ignorance, its infection becomes very acute. When it is influenced by the mode of passion, the infection is at the symptomatic stage. However, when the body is influenced by the mode of goodness, the materialistic infection becomes purified. The ritualistic ceremonies recommended in religious systems are certainly on the platform of goodness, but because within this material world even the mode of goodness is sometimes polluted by the other qualities (namely passion and ignorance), a man in goodness is sometimes driven by the influence of ignorance.

 

It is herein described that King PuraJjana once went to the forest to kill animals. This means that he, the living entity, came under the influence of the mode of ignorance. The forest in which King PuraJjana engaged in hunting was named PaJca-prastha. The word paJca means "five," and this indicates the objects of the five senses. The body has five working senses, namely the hands, the legs, the tongue, the rectum and the genitals. By taking full advantage of these working senses, the body enjoys material life. The chariot is driven by five horses, which represent the five sense organs--namely the eyes, ears, nose, skin and tongue. These sense organs are very easily attracted by the sense objects. Consequently, the horses are described as moving swiftly. On the chariot King PuraJjana kept two explosive weapons, which may be compared to ahaGkAra, or false ego. This false ego is typified by two attitudes: "I am this body" (ahantA), and "Everything in my bodily relationships belongs to me" (mamatA).

 

The two wheels of the chariot may be compared to the two moving facilities--namely sinful life and religious life. The chariot is decorated with three flags, which represent the three modes of material nature. The five kinds of obstacles, or uneven roads, represent the five kinds of air passing within the body. These are prANa, apAna, udAna, samAna and vyAna. The body itself is covered by seven coverings, namely skin, muscle, fat, blood, marrow, bone and semen. The living entity is covered by three subtle material elements and five gross material elements. These are actually obstacles placed before the living entity on the path of liberation from material bondage.

 

The word razmi ("rope") in this verse indicates the mind. The word nIDa is also significant, for nIDa indicates the nest where a bird takes rest. In this case nIDa is the heart, where the living entity is situated. The living entity sits in one place only. The causes of his bondage are two: namely lamentation and illusion. In material existence the living entity simply hankers to get something he can never get. Therefore he is in illusion. As a result of being in this illusory situation, the living entity is always lamenting. Thus lamentation and illusion are described herein as dvi-kUbara, the two posts of bondage.

 

The living entity carries out various desires through five different processes, which indicate the working of the five working senses. The golden ornaments and dress indicate that the living entity is influenced by the quality of rajo-guNa, passion. One who has a good deal of money or riches is especially driven by the mode of passion. Being influenced by the mode of passion, one desires so many things for enjoyment in this material world. The eleven commanders represent the ten senses and the mind. The mind is always making plans with the ten commanders to enjoy the material world. The forest named PaJca-prastha, where the King went to hunt, is the forest of the five sense objects: form, taste, sound, smell and touch. Thus in these three verses NArada Muni describes the position of the material body and the encagement of the living entity within it.

 

Krsna Book

 

When KRSNa approached the covering layer of this universe, the four horses which were drawing His chariot--Saibya, SugrIva, MeghapuSpa and BalAhaka--all appeared to hesitate to enter the darkness. This hesitation is also a part of the pastimes of Lord KRSNa because the horses of KRSNa are not ordinary; it is not possible for ordinary horses to go all over the universe and then enter into its outer covering layers. As KRSNa is transcendental, His chariot and His horses and everything about Him is also transcendental, beyond the qualities of this material world. We should always remember that KRSNa was playing the part of an ordinary human being, and His horses also, by the will of KRSNa, played the parts of ordinary horses in hesitating to enter the darkness.

........

After hearing this order, the driver brought KRSNa's four special horses. The names and descriptions of these horses are mentioned in the Padma PurANa. The first one, Saibya, was greenish; the second, SugrIva, was grayish like ice; the third, MeghapuSpa, was the color of a new cloud; and the last, BalAhaka, was of ashen color. When the horses were yoked and the chariot was ready to go, KRSNa helped the brAhmaNa up and gave him a seat by His side. Immediately they started from DvArakA and within one night arrived at the province of Vidarbha. The kingdom of DvArakA is situated in the western part of India, and Vidarbha is situated in the northern part. They are separated by a distance of not less than one thousand miles, but the horses were so fast that they reached their destination, a town called KuNDina, within one night or, at most, twelve hours.

 

BG 1.14

 

tataH zvetair hayair yukte

mahati syandane sthitau

mAdhavaH pANDavaz caiva

divyau zaGkhau pradadhmatuH

 

tataH--thereafter; zvetaiH--with white; hayaiH--horses; yukte--being yoked; mahati--in a great; syandane--chariot; sthitau--situated; mAdhavaH--KRSNa (the husband of the goddess of fortune); pANDavaH--Arjuna (the son of PANDu); ca--also; eva--certainly; divyau--transcendental; zaGkhau--conchshells; pradadhmatuH--sounded.

 

On the other side, both Lord KRSNa and Arjuna, stationed on a great chariot drawn by white horses, sounded their transcendental conchshells.

 

I actually meant no disrespect. I really thought you were talking about the senses being beautiful not the picture of the painting of the horses being beautiful, alluding to the world's attraction, and our challenge to get beyond. That's what I was trying to talk about anyway, and your comment seemed to fit the mood.

 

I hope this eases your stress. But that's what it was. I hope with a little empathy you will see that no malice was intended.

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[Tarun]

When the body or mind is suffering, the soul is enjoying.

Wherever we are, that's where God wants us to be.

If God is not there, then he's not God.

If I'm lonely, I'm not chanting.

If I'm chanting, I'm not lonely.

If I'm hearing, someone else must be there.

You Never Walk Alone. You Never Chant Alone.

[Janus]

You "thought". Where did Srila Prabhupada instruct you to finish your thought?

Thank you, you posted up the proof of my assertion that the horses are beautiful, but what was all that other guff when you were trying to proove your arguement and when in the service of that desire you rendered the Supreme Personality of Godhead to the position of just being a metaphor for the human mind. How many persons read that post but will never come back to read this your own refutation of your erstwhile claim? Even one? Even one who from now on will forever after consider Krsna to be nothing more than than a symbol for his own mentality?

 

For my part I didn’t mean to suggest that you were conscious of your editing Ghari, just that you were “contaminated” as Srila Narayana Maharaja put it by Mayavadi philosophy, which everyone born into the Western World is, and that you were motivated by a desire for false prestige.

 

Since if I recall correctly you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada I would have been very much surprised if you exhibited the capacity for deep thinking.

 

Most of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada became disciples at an early age in their emotional and intellectual development and unfortunately once they became nominal initiates had satisfied their emotional needs by that act and thus afterwards never had to be troubled by whatever feeling of uncertainty had propelled them to that nominal acceptance. Thus they never had to “think” again. You were only carrying on that tradition and continuing to imagine that you are good little disciple of Srila Prabhupada while doing so, even though your ability and capability of progressing the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, yours and almost the entirety of Srila Prabhupadas nominal initiates can be measured in the nil.

 

Perhaps Srila Narayana Maharaja was right in considering that he could have done better, that if he’d had been in charge of the movement in the West at its inception that you would have gotten better training and that thus our movements history would not have to suffer so terribly from the reputation that you and your God brothers have bequeathed to us.

 

But then again perhaps Srila Narayana Maharaja is not conversant with some vital information, perhaps Srila Narayana Maharaja is wrong. After all why didn’t Srila Bhaktisidhanta’s mission to the West meet with better success? Yes, upon considering time and place and circumstance and that Srila Prabhupada is a mahajana, the fact that you didn’t get it then, and the fact that you still don’t get it now, and furthermore that you havn’t the slightest desire to get it comes as no surprise.

 

Happily though not everyone is so encumbered by their own self estimate that any attempt to communicate to them that the human brain, from the viewpoint of perception theory, appears much like a very unique self-programming computor, and that it chooses – usually unconsciously and mechanically the quality of consciousness it will experience and the world view that it will employ to orchestrate the incoming signals from the experienced world – is not always in vain.

 

I do not consider “Duh-votees” to be anything more than a detriment.

 

Sentimentality is a sign of laziness in the intellectual sphere. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur in his purport to the vyavasayatmika buddhir verse of Bhagavad Gita instructs that the disciple must make the guru’s order his life and soul and that thus he must set himself to work indefatigably for that orders accomplisment. So what I once was part of the movement and worked my butt off doing phyical labor both night and day for the satisfaction of Srila Prabhupada? So what if you did? Those days in which I could indefatigably work physically both night and day are far behind me, and by your so frequent appearance here and there upon this or that BB it appears that those days of physically working your butt off are behind you too. So what does that leave us? Are we now allowed to sit back upon our “realizations” and dispense from out position of grand haughtier our considerations as if it would be insane for anyone to regard them as anything other than axiomatic truths?

 

No. There is no “resting upon ones laurels”. Since the days of physical labor in the society of devotees is far behind us what then should be our sphere of prodigious endeavor? It should be only one thing in my estimate, and that is to “get it”, and to get in in the regaurd of both Srila Prabhupada and of Sri Krsna means for us one thing and one thing only, that we must follow finally become Krsna conscious.

 

Prabhupada: If you want to please me, distribute my books

 

That I helped to do Ghari, tons and tons of them.

 

Devotee: What pleases you the most Srila Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: I am MOST pleased when I see you becoming Krsna conscious.

 

Sastra-yuktye sunipuna drdha-sraddha yanra

Uttama-adhikari sei taraye samsara

 

“One who is expert in logic, argument, and the revealed scriptures and who has firm faith in Krsna is classified as a topmost devotee. He can deliver the world.”

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

 

Srila Prabhupadas order to his disciples if I recall correctly was for them to become Guru and thus to deliver the world, and as is indicated by this explanation of the qualities of such a world wide deliverer intellectual development, keen discrimination is a necessary development. So now that we can no longer work our butts off we must work with our minds. If you don’t want to use your brain Ghari that’s ok, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should follow your own bad example. Integrity is the key. Next time before you follow your assumption to the degree that you are willing to make it appear before the innocent that Krsna is nothing more

a symbol for their own puny brains stop yourself and do some thinking. You want empathy be a little less self centered yourself. for

Hari bol

P.S. Thank you for posting that, that was a very good sign to me that there is hope yet for this world, that was in fact integrity, yours.

 

[gHari]

Only a mayavadi could possibly twist such sweetness into mayavadi philosophy. What nonsense, start to finish.

 

If I say a car is driven by the steering wheel, that is true. I can further explain as does Prabhupada in the quotes you obviously did not understand or read, that the car is driven by George Smith. Both statements can be true. One offers less information.

 

Will you leap to conclusions here and contend that cars drive themselves? Will you 'equate' like a robot the words 'steering wheel' with 'George Smith', thereby concluding that I am suggesting that George Smith is a steering wheel?

 

Here I fear that mayavadi may be in the eye of the beholder; using nonsensical 'logic' to produce mayavadi from thin air. Certainly no one can be less of a mayavadi than I.

 

When I see the painting of Arjuna and Krsna on Arjuna's chariot I see the essence of the Gita: surrender to Krsna. I would be very surprised if Krsna did not stage this most famous conversation purposefully on the chariot just to create this very memorable multi-level pun for our dull minds to remember.

 

Sorry, I didn't read much of your response. This whole thing is too stupid to deal with. You may want to apply your same 'logic' to the words of Srila Prabhupada quoted above and ask yourself sincerely if he is equating Paramatma to the intelligence.

 

I do not feel compelled to offer anything more. And quite less compelled to read anything more.

[Janus]

"Only a mayavadi could possibly twist such sweetness into mayavadi philosophy. What nonsense, start to finish."

 

By your own words.

You are the one who twisted my comment that the horses drawing Lord Krsnas chariot were beautiful into an explanation that rendered Krsna up as being a metaphor for the human mind just for the sake of winning an arguement which was based upon another witless assumption of yours.

I contested your assertion and later you posted up the proof that I was right. I naturally thought that since you posted it that you understood it. Now it appears that you don't even realize that you lost the arguement by the proof that you posted even though it's glaringly evident. YOU are really to stupid to deal with GHari. I thank then Krsna and not you for compelling you to post up the sure proof of your own error.

Let those who have eyes see.

As far as whether you read my posts or not, I don't care but I am somewhat at a loss for words when the situation arises in which silence is the only response appropriate to someone who can't hear.

PS. Yes, my name is George Smith, so what? There is also a George Smith club. Who cares? I am spirit soul, that I know, now that's special. What, do you think that your name is GHari?