stonehearted Posted November 27, 2001 Report Share Posted November 27, 2001 Originally posted by Bhakta Don Muntean: If I sound Pompus and Emotional to you it is only a 'Reflecting of what your are Projecting' to the World..... Stone: My, my . . . we're a little worked up, aren't we? I thought the postings on this board were supposed to be civil. So far, Don, you've shown a talent for name calling, which isn't a very mature way to discuss things. Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally? Is our moderator asleep at the keyboard, or can we write any damned thing about each other as long as we include a quotation from the VedaBase somewhere in our posting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Originally posted by stonehearted: Stone: My, my . . . we're a little worked up, aren't we? I thought the postings on this board were supposed to be civil. So far, Don, you've shown a talent for name calling, which isn't a very mature way to discuss things. Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally? Is our moderator asleep at the keyboard, or can we write any damned thing about each other as long as we include a quotation from the VedaBase somewhere in our posting? All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Dear Stone: >Stone: My, my . . . we're a little worked up, aren't we? Reply; No not really. >I thought the postings on this board were supposed to be civil. Reply: Well I was simply pointing out the obvious anti-semitic bunk. Tarun did not even consider removing certain parts of that post for 'posterity'. >So far, Don, you've shown a talent for name calling, which isn't a very mature way to discuss things. Reply: I don't agree--I am not 'really' name calling--thanks for recognizing some so-called talent! >Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. Reply: Ooh fancy lingo! Does it mean anything? >No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally? Reply: Very Occasionally--and it would be 'something' not 'anything'. I am sorry that I have offended you! But the facts are the facts after all. Your Servant, Bhakta don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Originally posted by Bhakta Don Muntean:>Stone: My, my . . . we're a little worked up, aren't we? Reply; No not really. Stone: Sorry, but your postings seemed more than emphatic. >I thought the postings on this board were supposed to be civil. Reply: Well I was simply pointing out the obvious anti-semitic bunk. Stone: Challenging Tarun's perceived prejudices is defferent from calling him all sorts of nasty names. Stone: >So far, Don, you've shown a talent for name calling, which isn't a very mature way to discuss things. Reply: I don't agree--I am not 'really' name calling--thanks for recognizing some so-called talent! Stone: How about some honesty here? You called him a drug dealer and a cow killer, among other things. >Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. Reply: Ooh fancy lingo! Does it mean anything? Stone: Yes it does. It's Latin for "You, too." It's the mistake of "arguing" by saying, "You think I'm a dope? Well, you're an even bigger idiot! So there!" You're clearly clever enough to come up with something better. >No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally? Reply: Very Occasionally--and it would be 'something' not 'anything'. Stone: If "anything" bothers you, fine. I was trying to cast a wide net. I am sorry that I have offended you! But the facts are the facts after all. Stone: I'm not at all offended--just a little annoyed to see how devotees so persistently discuss things in such a heated tone. One thing I don't like about this sort of "conversation" is the lack of responsibility the participants feel for what they write, since they don't have to be in the same (real) room with the others. So, from your parting shot, should we infer that it's a fact that Tarun is a drug dealer and cow killer? Or are you just pee'd off because you don't like the black UN helicopter, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" talk? Look, I don't buy that stuff, either, but I'm not ready to call all devotees who do cow killers. Pardon me if I sometimes sound uppity and preachy. My job and my age kind of condition me to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Dear Stone: Stone: Challenging Tarun's perceived prejudices is defferent from calling him all sorts of nasty names. Reply: Actually I was talking about the Person who wrote the Original Message--I was not clear on that--I am sorry. Stone: How about some honesty here? You called him a drug dealer and a cow killer, among other things. Reply: Again I was not talking about Tarun. The Original Author said: I therefore urge the youth to start up not only defending their countries - but bringing the Jews to the courts of justice. Not to their courts but to ours, where we are the judges, prosecutors and executors. I would like to be one of the prosecuters. I think I qualify for such a job. My credentials are: >- not feeling sorry for a "Dead" Jew >-You are all Germans in the eye of the Jews >-If you do not hate, you are not prepared for the final battle for the >survival of your race. Now when Tarun's Posts are checked eariler in this String we see this: >-Who can say for sure whether 'Tony Curtis', 'Kirk Douglas' & 'Edward G Robinson' were Bar Mitzvahed or not? Those are His Words. In his 'defense' these are also his words: >-So many Jews become Hare KRSNa devotees: that is best. So we have some Interesting Mix of Ideas. It just troubled me that Tarun did not Post his Rebuttal of the Message with the Message--his comments instead were: >-Somewhat bias. Still it contains some interesting facts. >-Keep in mind: some Jews not all. So that is it? Stone: Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. Reply: Ooh fancy lingo! Does it mean anything? Stone: Yes it does. It's Latin for "You, too." It's the mistake of "arguing" by saying, "You think I'm a dope? Well, you're an even bigger idiot! So there!" You're clearly clever enough to come up with something better. Reply: You are correct--I can come up with better! Stone: No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally? Reply: Very Occasionally--and it would be 'something' not 'anything'. Stone: If "anything" bothers you, fine. I was trying to cast a wide net. Reply: When we speak what we have Heard From Shrila Prabhupada then there can be no Error--yet we are to be Trained in Independent Thinking etc., so as to Apply this Vedic Science 'Practiclly' to the World. My Observations regarding the Politics of the Planet are not as far off as you might think. Ideas like those in the Message in question deserve no reply--what to speak of a 'Mannered' one. I replied because I did not want Visitors to see some kind of seeming anti-semitic sentiments--go 'un'questioned. I could have used better words in some areas. It was also an oppourtunity to respond with some Question on the allegations against the 'Builderburg Group'--why must they be 'Evil'? Because they are "Masons and Jews"? >I am sorry that I have offended you! But the facts are the facts after all. Stone: I'm not at all offended--just a little annoyed to see how devotees so persistently discuss things in such a heated tone. Reply: I know--I agree with you. But as before-mentioned the tone of the Message was too far off to be polite to all of it. Stone: One thing I don't like about this sort of "conversation" is the lack of responsibility the participants feel for what they write, since they don't have to be in the same (real) room with the others. Reply: Being Mindfull of Hackers--I am more aware of this 'Responsibility'--even if I get into a Heated Exchange with people in Messaging if I say something that needs 'Retraction' and/or appology--then I do it. Stone: So, from your parting shot, should we infer that it's a fact that Tarun is a drug dealer and cow killer? Repy: No he is neither--if he is a devotee, which he apparently is. Mr. "Streiker" on the other hand is most likely both. He is the latter for sure. Stone: Or are you just pee'd off because you don't like the black UN helicopter, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" talk? Look, I don't buy that stuff, either, but I'm not ready to call all devotees who do cow killers. Reply: See above. Pardon me if I sometimes sound uppity and preachy. My job and my age kind of condition me to that. Reply: That is Perfectly Fine. You don't really sound either. Your Servant, Bhakta don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Here is the 'Something' on one of my Points: In a Letter [Regarding Management] to a Devotee named Karandhar, 72-12-22, Shrila Prabhupada writes; "...this Krishna Conciousness Movement is meant for Training to be Independently Thoughtful...in all types of Knowledge and Action..." Your Servant, Bhakta don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Originally posted by Bhakta Don Muntean:All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Stone: Challenging Tarun's perceived prejudices is defferent from calling him all sorts of nasty names. Reply: Actually I was talking about the Person who wrote the Original Message--I was not clear on that--I am sorry. Stone: Ah--I apparently missed that. I thought I had read the entire thread, but I obviously missed something. I apologize for my error. I think it's my perception that you were vilifying Tarun that got me going. Also, some of these discussions carry over from other threads, and I just don't always have time to chase them all down. Stone: How about some honesty here? You called him a drug dealer and a cow killer, among other things. Reply: Again I was not talking about Tarun. Stone: Gotcha! Sorry again. Don: When we speak what we have Heard From Shrila Prabhupada then there can be no Error--yet we are to be Trained in Independent Thinking etc., so as to Apply this Vedic Science 'Practiclly' to the World. My Observations regarding the Politics of the Planet are not as far off as you might think. Ideas like those in the Message in question deserve no reply--what to speak of a 'Mannered' one. I replied because I did not want Visitors to see some kind of seeming anti-semitic sentiments--go 'un'questioned. I could have used better words in some areas. Stone: Fair enough. I agree that generally they deserve no reply. I've had much experience with such ideas. When I moved to the D.C. area in 1960, my town, Arlington, VA, had the distinction of being the home of George Lincoln Rockwell, head of the American Nazi Party. When one of my new acquaintances gave me some of their tracts, I was so shocked that I burned them in the BBQ pit in our back yard and mixed the ashes. That was just the beginning, which included being approached by paramilitary defense groups (I guess we'd call them whacko militias today) and devotee friends turning me on to "None Dare Call it Conspiracy." I've seen intersting ideas in some of these, but none persuades me. Don: It was also an oppourtunity to respond with some Question on the allegations against the 'Builderburg Group'--why must they be 'Evil'? Because they are "Masons and Jews"? Stone: Well, to these conspiracy nuts, that would of course follow naturally. I grew up among Masons, many of whom are very conservative and painfully patriotic, so it's a little hard to see them as the core of the International Jewish Conspiracy embodied in the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations. Stone: Pardon me if I sometimes sound uppity and preachy. My job and my age kind of condition me to that. Reply: That is Perfectly Fine. You don't really sound either. Stone: I should probably add my lack of realization to the list of excuses. Sorry if I seemed to jump down your throat. Your servant, Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Dear Stone: Thank you for accepting my eariler 'regrets' on my Posting Confusions. Stone: I grew up among Masons, many of whom are very conservative and painfully patriotic, so it's a little hard to see them as the core of the International Jewish Conspiracy embodied in the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations. Reply: What do you mean by "International Jewish Conspiracy embodied in the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations."? As per the first part regarding the Masons--I do not agree--"Very Conservative and Painfully Patriotic"--is a Very Good Estimation of the Individuals who Act within the Council on Foreign Relations--they are an International Organization with a Common Vision. I sometimes think that the "New World Order's" 'Gradualization' Approach is not such a good thing--in light of the Serious Advances of this Age of Kali. An absence of many so-called open answers about the "Group" and its 'Programs' induces a kind of Superstition in People. People are also Inclined to think the Worst about that which they do not have clear information about. A Question that seems to arrise in a discussion of this Topic is whether or not "Globalization" is a 'Zionist' Invention--the Fact is it is NOT. The Global Community Idea is found Extensivly in the Vedic Shastras/Purana--a Global Administration has Existed in the Past and--IS Preferable to Fully Independant Regional Administration--for many Reasons. One is--this constant botheration that certain Regions of the Earth decide to Act in Total Disregard of the Rest. Each Nation has a Responsiblity to and a Guaranteed access to Benefits to improve the Regions. The United Nations is only the Natural Blue Print for the Eventual Proper Global Administration. Even as a Child I felt that the UN would be better as an actual Government. At least make the Step--and then work out the inevitable Problems--they cannot all be worked out prior--despite all Good Intentions to do so. The 'Pause' on this whole Scenario seems to be "on" because they do wish to Minimise the Social Reactions--yet they are in a Race with the Decay of the Kali Age... Another Name for the 'Builderburg Group' is 'Illuminati'-- which comes from 'Illumination'. Their 'Idea' of a Global Government--is very Ancient--Quite Universal in Expression. This is from Long Standing Serious Interest in Ancient Philosophy and the Mystical--which IS Good. How many 'Common People' are Engaged in some sort of 'New Age' Practice--Yoga, Meditiation etc., it is very 'Common' because it is Meant to be--it IS a Result of the Appearance of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in 1486 C.E.--'Ending the "Dark Ages"--for Ten Thousand Years...' The 'Illuminati'--a Group of 'Leaders'--in a way are Engaged--in the Same kinds of things--hence the 'History' of the Masons etc., we can see they are Attempting to bring an 'Ideal'--into Reality. It is a Good Thing that this 'Spirit' has entered Politics... We should not allow Ourselves to become 'Prejudiced' to a 'Good Idea' [the Natural Evolution of this 'Trancendental Interuption to Kali Yuga'] by so-called Reasonable Arguments--usually based in an subtle 'Bigot Logic'. [i'm NOT saying this about you Prabhu!] Your Servant, Bhakta don It IS to be Seen to--that it 'Evolves' Toward the Vedic... [This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 11-28-2001).] [This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 11-28-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janus Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Why the Jews? The question has been asked as to why it is that the Jews have gotten so much blame and mistreatment, why such horrific crimes have been committed against them. I was surprised to see that anyone, especially upon a Vaisnava forum attempt to justify such atrocities, but to get back to the question, the answer is quite simple. The reason that the Jews have been the recipients of such horrors as have been perpetrated against them is simply because the Jews are evil…according to Christian MYTHOLOGY. According to the New Testament the Jews are responsible for the murder of Christ “His blood is on us and on our children”. The full blame for the death of Jesus was laid upon the Jews by the writers of the New Testament which hundreds of millions of people in the world today still accept as true, instead of being the B.S. that scholarly research and investigation has proven it to be along with the assertion that Christianity was every anything that Jesus intended or that it was created by him, but back to the matter. Jesus’s mission execution was politically motivated and had nothing to do with the Jewish community, only with the Romans and their Sadducee quislings, while the majority of the Jews were sympathetic to Jesus and his mission as is demonstrated by Gamalial’s defense of Peter and the acquittal of Peter before the full Sanhedran by a majority vote. This would not have been the case if it were true if it had been the consideration of Gamalial that Jesus had intended to do away with the Torah or that he had been representing himself as being divine. Far from being a lone voice, or a secret Christian sympathizer Gamalial was in actuality the head of the Pharasies, and Jesus himself was most probably also a Pharasee. Whatever there is nothing in Jesus’s presentation that stands up to examination as running counter to Jewish philosophy and he neither claimed or intended to abolish the Torah or to claim for himself that he was God. Yes he did accept himself later on in his mission to be THE Messiah, but the word Massiah does not carry the same connotations in Hebrew as it’s Greek translation Christos (from Crestos, a title meaning “Good” and an appellation addressed to Pagagn deities). What The Messiah meant to both Jesus and to the Jews was simply that he was King of the Jews. Since Rome had abolished Hebrew royalty such a claim was considered to be seditious and that is what Jesus was tried and executed for. That it was ok in the eyes of the Jews for someone to proclaim themselves King, and that they even hoped that such a claim would be true is again testified to by the speech of Gamalial before the Sanhedrin when he makes mention of two such other previous claimants to Massiahood; Theudas and Judas of Gallalie, both of whom had also been executed by the Romans. Paul, the real creator of Christianity was a liar, this he himself admits to being and demonstrates of himself to be in his own writings in the New Testament, but the extent of his deceptiveness has never been the subject of investigation until the last century. His transference of blame for the execution of Jesus from being the responsibility of the Romans onto the heads of the Jews was a lie that he created in order to make it seem that Jesus execution was for religious reasons rather than political purposes. This lie institutionalized the hatred of Jews, the greatest Irony, since Jesus himself was a Jew, and being only a better Jew was all that he ever meant or conceived himself to be. To those interested in reading more about this I refer you to the book review at http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/maccoby.html Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-28-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janus Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Dear Bhakta Don I wrote this a week or so ago before I read your use of the same particual quotation “Krsna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy. Once there is bureaucracy the whole thing will be spoiled.” Srila Prabhupada – 1972 letter to the GBC We can go on and on and on discussing the lamentable results of that spoilage which is still attending and which the children of the movement are the inheritors of. “The sins of the fathers.” And we can talk about whose to blame, this one and that one, the betrayers of our innocence, of our trust, but talking about what can be done about it, even to this day requires that we pay now attention to the first part of the first sentence. It indicates that there is something very wrong with things from the inception, did you notice? “Krsna consciousness movement is for training men…” The thing that’s very wrong can be indicated by replacing the word “men” with “children”. Most Americans…everyone. Everyone born in any country in the world today, everyone born within the last…one, two, three centuries and continuing share some major assumptions, some considerations about the world and about themselves. They are in other words conditioned. What they believe then in regards to themselves they even accept to be natural, part of being human, part of their very own natures. Examples of such beliefs are that the world is progressing towards a more perfect state through the steady accumulation of human knowledge and techniques, that scientific observation is objective, and most insidious, the belief that each and everyone of us exists as an autonomous entity. This later assumption actually precludes the chance of arriving at a position where independent thought is possible, because we are not capable of thinking independently as how we think is a direct result of our conditioning, we then must be trained to recognize our conditioning and how it effects us.. Surprisingly the assumptions which we universally share have not always been those of civilized cultures and are not in fact the consideration of our own Krsna Consciousness view of reality, but they are ours nevertheless for we are conditioned with the one World View, that of the Machine Age, and not the other, the World View of Krsna Consciousness. In general we separate the two but it remains obvious in the way that we think and act and react to one another the strength and the power of our conditioning over us as well as the supreme necessity to over power it and that we cannot do as long as it remains invisible to us. “Krsna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful..” The power of our conditioning, of the strength of any world view is proportionate to the degree that it is internalized, completely invisible as water is invisible to fish and air is to the birds, and yet is that which they swim and fly in. We do not possess the world view of an agrarian God centered society, but of a Machine age Godless society. We have to start from scratch and be trained ourselves as men, then and only then can the Krsna consciousness movement provide adequate training to our children. Srila Prabhupada commenting upon the result of our conditioning when he described us as ALL being atheists, not a single exception. Because we are not autonomous, because we are the products of our conditioning, of our internalized world view. Do you think that anyone who truly believed in Krsna could have committed such crimes against our innocent godbrothers and godsisters, against our friends and families, against even women and children who were not really atheists, and these criminal perpetrators were considered to be the crem dela cream of our Krsna Conscious society at one time? Like an iceburg whose sheer massiveness and most destructive potential is hidden beneath the water line while only a small tip of it is in view similarly the effects of our subconscious internalized world view is much more powerful over us than our conscious acceptance of any competing world view. Not even aware of the one upon a conscious level we separate the two with desasterous. One cannot serve two masters. Integrity is the key and for this that which lies beneath must be revealed and integrated so that we subscibe to only a single world view, that of guru, sadhu and shastra. Otherwise we set the stage for psychosis, this is evident by the history of our movement in the last 30 years behind us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted November 28, 2001 Report Share Posted November 28, 2001 Originally posted by Bhakta Don Muntean:All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Dear Stone: Thank you for accepting my eariler 'regrets' on my Posting Confusions. Stonehearted: Thanks for accepting mine. Don: What do you mean by "International Jewish Conspiracy embodied in the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations."? Stone: I meant that tongue in cheek. I guess I should have used a smiley. Sorry. I meant to goof on the Birch stuff as it's presented in "None Dare Call It Conspiracy." Although I'm not as high as you are on globalism and the CFR, etc., I postively get the creeps when I hear some of the right-wing Christian nuts get into their diatribes. Sorry if I got you going again. You're clearly more engaged with this than I am. My experience of the Masons was personal and local. They have bigger stuff going on than Shriners riding motorcycles and tricycles in parades, but my dad is no r to any anti-American, dump-the constitution movements. _ As per the first part regarding the Masons--I do not agree--"Very Conservative and Painfully Patriotic"--is a Very Good Estimation of the Individuals who Act within the Council on Foreign Relations--they are an International Organization with a Common Vision. I'll read your posts with interest and an eye to learning. Your servant, Babhru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Dear Janus: >>We can go on and on and on discussing the lamentable results of that spoilage which is still attending and which the children of the movement are the inheritors of. “The sins of the fathers.” Reply: Well that kinda over looks the point succesive generations are the rebirth of the former--so it is a kind of cycle. >>And we can talk about whose to blame, this one and that one, the betrayers of our innocence, of our trust, but talking about what can be done about it, even to this day requires that we pay now attention to the first part of the first sentence. Reply: Those who are to blame for an abuse--The abusers. Personal Responsibility is Further and Further Rubbed Out--in Favor of bringing the whole System to Justice. In a related thought Lord Krishna says: "Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's Sinful or Pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge." A 'Lawsuit Lottery' approach hardly ever singles-out True Offenders--to Reballance such Situations takes more than 'Jurisprudence' after the fact. To say that that IS the Present Situaiton in ISKCON is Unfair. Things have not been 'Perfect' in ISKCON for many 'External' Reasons--we should deal with those first. >>It indicates that there is something very wrong with things from the inception, did you notice? “Krsna consciousness movement is for training men…” The thing that’s very wrong can be indicated by replacing the word “men” with “children”. Reply: Are you saying Shrila Prabhupada made a mistake? You cannot take this 'one' reference to 'Training Men'--and say Shrila Prabhupada did not have Foresight for 'Training children', you know that is not true! >>Most Americans…everyone. Everyone born in any country in the world today, everyone born within the last…one, two, three centuries and continuing share some major assumptions, some considerations about the world and about themselves. They are in other words conditioned. Reply: Yes--this is what Shastra and Shrila Prabhupada Teach us. >>What they believe then in regards to themselves they even accept to be natural, part of being human, part of their very own natures. Reply: Lord Krishna says: "Even a man of knowledge acts according to his own nature, for everyone follows his nature. What can repression accomplish?" [bG 3.33] >>Examples of such beliefs are that the world is progressing towards a more perfect state through the steady accumulation of human knowledge and techniques, that scientific observation is objective, and most insidious, the belief that each and everyone of us exists as an autonomous entity. Reply: A more Rampant Belief that must be subdued into reason is this: "They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification." [bG 16.11-2] >>This later assumption actually precludes the chance of arriving at a position where independent thought is possible, because we are not capable of thinking independently as how we think is a direct result of our conditioning, we then must be trained to recognize our conditioning and how it effects us.. Reply: Shrila Prabhupada offers the only Program to Fully and Effectivly accomplish this Endeavor. >>Surprisingly the assumptions which we universally share have not always been those of civilized cultures Reply: "Who" are you speaking for? >>are not in fact the consideration of our own Krsna Consciousness view of reality, but they are ours nevertheless for we are conditioned with the one World View, that of the Machine Age, and not the other, the World View of Krsna Consciousness. Reply: Vedic Culture gives directions to implement a "One World View" into Practical Experiance. >>..we separate the two but it remains obvious in the way that we think and act and react to one another the strength and the power of our conditioning over us as well as the supreme necessity to over power it and that we cannot do as long as it remains invisible to (us). Reply: "The Blessed Lord said: O mighty-armed son of Kunti, it is undoubtedly very difficult to curb the restless mind, but it is possible by constant practice and by detachment." [bG 35.6] "When one's intelligence, mind, faith and refuge are all fixed in the Supreme, then one becomes fully cleansed of misgivings through complete knowledge and thus proceeds straight on the path of liberation." [bG 5.17] " One who is beyond duality and doubt, whose mind is engaged within, who is always busy working for the welfare of all sentient beings, and who is free from all sins, achieves liberation in the Supreme." [bG 5.25] "Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated." [bG 9.12] >>The power of our conditioning, of the strength of any world view is proportionate to the degree that it is internalized, completely invisible as water is invisible to fish and air is to the birds, and yet is that which they swim and fly in. Reply: "All men are forced to act helplessly according to the impulses born of the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment." >>We do not possess the world view of an agrarian God centered society, but of a Machine age Godless society. Reply: Well that ONE 'Development' of Kali Yuga--the Focus moving from Cow Protection to Cow Exploitation--is the 'single' Most Powerfull Cause of the Imballances in our World. >>We have to start from scratch and be trained ourselves as men, then and only then can the Krsna consciousness movement provide adequate training to our children. Reply: That is why Shrila Prabhupada was All the Time asking the Leading Men of the World to take Serious the 'Complete Process' He is giving us--to make Global Varnashram-Dharma a Reality. >>Srila Prabhupada commenting upon the result of our conditioning when he described us as ALL being atheists, not a single exception. Reply: He said we are all Mayavadi--Impersonalists. >>Because we are not autonomous, because we are the products of our conditioning, of our internalized world view. Reply: In the 'State of God' which is the actual 'State' we live in we are all--'autonomous' in Terms of the particular Direction we are headed--based on our Merits and Desires. >>Do you think that anyone who truly believed in Krsna could have committed such crimes against our innocent godbrothers and godsisters, against our friends and families, against even women and children who were not really atheists, and these criminal perpetrators were considered to be the crem dela cream of our Krsna Conscious society at one time? Reply: No. Shrila Prabhupada warned us that not everyone who is claiming he is a devotee in this Society IS a devotee. >>...the effects of our subconscious internalized world view is much more powerful over us than our conscious acceptance of any competing world view. Reply: That may be true in the connection I have noted above--in that the Average Person may be living to Gratify their Senses in a '20 foot Reality'. >>One cannot serve two masters. Reply: That is incorrect. Define 'Masters'! >>Integrity is the key and for this that which lies beneath must be revealed and integrated so that we subscibe to only a single world view, that of guru, sadhu and shastra. Reply: The 'Key' is: an Integrated View Point--which subscibes to a Single World View, with 'Administration' that is based on Guru, Sadhu and Shastra. >>Otherwise we set the stage for psychosis, this is evident by the history of our movement in the last 30 years behind us. Reply: "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." [bG 9.10] The 'psychosis in the last 30 years' on this PLANET not just in ISKCON are a result of the AGE of Kali--and its concomitant factors--and that verse should be considered. You might've been unfair to use that word about psychosis regarding ISKCON--'dysfuctional' would be a better word? Your Srevant, Bhakta don [This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 11-29-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 Don Juanji: a few thoughts What is anti-semitism? If both Palestinians & Israelis are Semitic, who's really anti-semitic? Semitic languages include Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopian, Hebrew. Last night I chanted Hare KRSNa at Timessquare with whom? 2 Jews, 1 Gujarati, 1 Greek, 1 WASP Moreover, so many Jews wearing Yamalkahs passed by dancing. According to this thread title, I thought it beneficial we expose & examine statements by someone who openly declares what Julius declared above. Why hide someone's genuinely felt expression, however wrong? Our gurudev used the term "nonsense" quite often. Then once he said: "Even in nonsense there's some sense." Have you contacted Julius yet? There's even Jews that hate Jews? I've met a few. Have you? Why? How so? I'm not trying to draw any vicious conclusion herein. Nonetheless, Donji, they do have their reasons, however unreasonable they may seem to you. So far blame & hate are concerned, we're being programmed to blame & hate Bin Laden, Taliban, Hussain... We're supposed to think: If Bushmaster captures Usama, we're successful. Then we can busy ourselves blaming & hating someone else. Such low-blow, low-class knee-jerk conditioning. Do you buy into it? Or flush it where it belongs? So far Scapegoating Blame & Hate, anyone who lived through the 60s & early 70s passed up/transcended Ashcan, Bushman & Rumpfelt so long ago. Yet those who know nothing should continue to follow all 3. Till Kingdom come. Or King Dumb comes. He'll save us. You betcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 Dear Tarun: >>>a few thoughts What is anti-semitism? Reply: Well--is it something different than feeling that that Semites and Jews are Congenitally Evil. >If both Palestinians & Israelis are Semitic, who's really anti-semitic? Reply: Well they have a Feelings about each other which are beyond your Simple Interpretation. They are indeed of the same 'Semitic Origins' and they will at some point--have to accept that--yet to compare the sentiments of each of them for each other--with the Standard Interpretation of "anti-semitic" is Silly. >Semitic languages include Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopian, Hebrew. Reply: The People who Live in the Region of the Middle East have a 'Common Origin' and a 'Common Destiny'--this seems to be Obscured by other--Secondary Issues of Territory --Immaturity and the Pressure of Karma--to some degree in 'both' sides--perpertuates it. Both Sides of this One have some Vaild Arguments--yet Guns and Bombs are not the answer--to THOSE Arguments. Shrimad Bhagavatam states that in Kali Yuga Brothers will Kill Each Other--over Dirt and Less. >Last night I chanted Hare KRSNa [sic] at Timessquare with whom? 2 Jews, 1 Gujarati, 1 Greek, 1 WASP Moreover, so many Jews wearing Yamalkahs passed by dancing. Reply; That's Very Cool! You seen 'Ground Zero'? What does it make you think? >According to this thread title, I thought it beneficial we expose & examine statements by someone who openly declares what Julius declared above. Reply: Yes. >Why hide someone's genuinely felt expression, however wrong? Reply: I did not say that we are to 'censor' anyone. >Our gurudev used the term "nonsense" quite often. Then once he said: "Even in nonsense there's some sense." Reply: Where did he say that--oh and WHO is He? Shrila Prabhupada? >Have you contacted Julius yet? Reply: Who is that? Strieker? Should I contact him? Does he wanna hear about Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu? Will he be willing to look at Shastric Evidence for why Things are the way they are? >There's even Jews that hate Jews? I've met a few. Have you? Reply: Many people hate their own family--that a Jewish Man might hate his Mothers Son--does not make him a Nazi. >I'm not trying to draw any vicious conclusion herein. Reply: In any Given situation given the symptoms of the Age: SB 12.3.8 - "Political leaders challenge one another: 'All this land is mine! It’s not yours, you fool!' Thus they attack one another and die." SB 12.3.24 - In the age of Kali only one fourth of the religious principles remains. That last remnant will continuously be decreased by the ever-increasing principles of irreligion and will finally be destroyed. SB 12.3.25 - In the Kali age people tend to be greedy, ill-behaved and merciless, and they fight one another without good reason. Unfortunate and obsessed with material desires, the people of Kali-yuga are almost all Shudras and Barbarians. SB 12.3.41 - In Kali-yuga men will develop hatred for each other even over a few coins. Giving up all friendly relations, they will be ready to lose their own lives and kill even their own relatives. That Tarun is the Cause. SB 12.3.43 - O King, in the Age of Kali People's Intelligence will be diverted by Atheism, and they will almost never offer Sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the Supreme Spiritual Master of the Universe. Although the Great Personalities who Control the Three Worlds All Bow Down to the Lotus Feet of the Supreme Lord, the Petty and Miserable Human Beings of this Age will not do so. >Nonetheless, Donji, they do have their reasons, however unreasonable they may seem to you. Reply: Please see above. >So far blame & hate are concerned, we're being programmed to blame & hate Bin Laden, Taliban, Hussain... Reply: Are we? You say you are in NYC--you have seen the 'Handi Work' of said Asuras? 'That alone' goes along way into Creating a Sense of Hate for them. What they did to the Lord Buddha Murti before that--was our 'dark' warning, how is that for creating a Sense of Hate? What would you expect the Ruler of a Nation to respond with for such a Demoniac Attack? >We're supposed to think: If Bushmaster captures Usama, we're successful. Then we can busy ourselves blaming & hating someone else. Such low-blow, low-class knee-jerk conditioning. Reply: You can't think that Mr. Bush's Reaction to this Attack is the same as say Saddam Insanes 'Invasions'. I hardly think that 'Ego' is a major part of this current move. >Do you buy into it? Or flush it where it belongs? Reply: What are we supposed to do with demons who think that they can attack this way? What if they are a "state"? Is our World on it's 'Own' or is God in Control? "The Supreme Lord is Situated in Everyone's Heart, O Arjuna, and is Directing the wanderings of All Living Entities, who are Seated as on a Machine, made of the Material Energy." [bG 18.61] >So far Scapegoating Blame & Hate, anyone who lived through the 60s & early 70s passed up/transcended Ashcan, Bushman & Rumpfelt so long ago. Reply: They are only part of the Picture. >Yet those who know nothing should continue to follow all 3. Reply: Well I think that we have our 'First' Duty--then after that we see how the 'Rest' fits-in... >Till Kingdom come. Or King Dumb comes. He'll save us. You betcha. Who is "King Dumb"? Your Servant, Bhakta don [This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 11-29-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janus Posted December 8, 2001 Report Share Posted December 8, 2001 Are you saying Shrila Prabhupada made a mistake? Oh yes, most definitly. He trusted "you", sorry, but I'm sorry that I wasn't there to inform him that a rope that he had holding close to his heart was a snake. Now if you don't like it you can take your whole dog and pony show and entertain someone else with your fantasy that you are worthy to chant Krsna's name. At least I know that I'm not Bhakta Don. It is the right however of anyone who is not a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to say what they may, ann only your right to defend him against any allegations. That none of you have shown yourselves capable of doing, and your lame ass attempts at trying to do so I ownly find humiliating. Humiliating because I just so happen to share the same species with you. That does not mean however that I do not consider that it is beyond one of you to call into the tomb and bid Lazarus to come forth or some other miracle, for that is just exactly what it is going to take. Do I believe in miracles? Yes, but then again I also believe that God is just and that sets me trembling and not for myself Prabhu's. Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-08-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted December 8, 2001 Report Share Posted December 8, 2001 All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada Janus: I said 'Are you saying Shrila Prabhupada made a mistake? Then you say: >>Oh yes, most definitly. He trusted "you", sorry, but I'm sorry that I wasn't there to inform him that a rope that he had holding close to his heart was a snake. Reply: What are you muttering about here?! >>Now if you don't like it you can take your whole dog and pony show and entertain someone else with your fantasy that you are worthy to chant Krsna's name. Reply: If you don't like it you can take your 'Browsing' to a different String you don't have to look at this String--huh? >>At least I know that I'm not Bhakta Don. Reply: That's Right! >> It is the right however of anyone who is not a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to say what they may, ann only your right to defend him against any allegations. Reply: So where did I deviate? Your "say what they may"--part goes two ways. >>That none of you have shown yourselves capable of doing, and your lame ass attempts at trying to do so I ownly find humiliating. Reply: Sort of what we see you doing? >>Humiliating because I just so happen to share the same species with you. Reply: You are a Spirit Soul--you are not some "species"! >>That does not mean however that I do not consider that it is beyond one of you to call into the tomb and bid Lazarus to come forth or some other miracle, for that is just exactly what it is going to take. Reply: Huh? Me a Miracle Worker? I am a Servant of the Servant of the Servant of the Servant of God--at most. >>Do I believe in miracles? Yes, but then again I also believe that God is just and that sets me trembling and not for myself Prabhu's. Hari bol Reply: Dear Janus--I have not been unjust, I have nothing to be guilty for as you poorly Charge--I also believe Strongly in "Miracles" those of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu--and His Pure Devotee are here now for all to Witness and Partake! Your servant, Bhakta don [This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 12-08-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janus Posted December 9, 2001 Report Share Posted December 9, 2001 Don. We become easily stuck in our linguistic grids mistaking our manipulation of symbols by their game rules to be something more than linear, sequential, reductionist and abstract thinking, but you were also trying to make fun of me. Actually I wasn't expressing myself in a holistic, simultaneous, synthetic and concrete way, or "muttering" as you put it, I was writing. I consider that the meaning of what I was talking about was obvious. Perhaps you would have forgone also making fun of my punctuation, or the lack of it however if it had been as obvious as I considered it to have been. One thing that I was saying relates to something you said in your last reply as well as to my prior post. You are wrong, i am not a spirit soul and neither are you, not that we have any realization of this. We are both conditioned living entities, that is obvious, about me to you and vice versa. It does not seem however that you are aware to this, that we are in all actuality asleep to our actual identities, not even dreaming of them, that we are totally oblivious to who in fact we actually are and that thus we are not spirit souls but our own false egos, having no other place to "hang our hats on", so to speak. We are all of us students of transcendence, we do however still suffer from the four conditioned defects, one of which is to regard our conceptual understandings as the actual thing or "true knowledge", we are still very prone to self delusion, constantly laboring against it, we hope. PS The dragon that serves me has a problem with Hemingway's grammer, to whom mine has been compared favorably to by critical review. I am a very powerful speaker, i was a Company Commander once (one guy got his hand chopped but everyone made it home) and according to some devotees one of the best singers in the movement. Srila Prabhupada liked me anyway. But I wasn't argueing that, and I think that he liked George Harrison best, I know that I did. Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-11-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 http://forums.arabia.com/WebX?14@156.Iuunal3Bnxy.0@.1dea90d7!content=EN&page=1&sort=recent&view=expanded 'Hamas' and 'Islamic Jihad' and other smaller political [legitmate] 'groups' are Hearing the Historic - 'Call to Peace' - NO they are NOT '...ticking time bombs...regrouping...' - the embattled peoples are asking for clear requirements: "...list of requirements of Israel, including that it stop all "acts of aggression" against Palestinians — including arrests and killings of accused militants and that it release all "political prisoners" and lift its travel restrictions on Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader..." [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/28/international/middleeast/28CND-MIDE.html?ex=1057820289&ei=1&en=98dd3fb10e601741] --- It isn't that Israel wishes to never resolve this serious problem - I am sure they are most especially feeling evermore calculated over the last twenty two years - acting under the impetus of the U.S. based 'cash cult' - they are "set-up" - we can see they have been ill-led - [most recently by] Bush and Co. - now they can see the many generations of the 'group' [who have been] operating out of the U.S. State [no matter who is elected over the last 22 years - the U.S. has become a kind of 'home' to many of the dejected leaders forming the new world order state - leaders who may not want the changes they know are coming] - so we see that for a price the U.S. has been 'fixing' the U.N. process - interference leading to a lack of U.N. actions and/or reprisals on Israel for violations of so many resolutions in connection to the occupation - by this time - Israel must see 'who' has been thus engaging them in an corner not expected - nor desired.... Israel must NOT continue to ignore the present - 'Call to Peace' - because this "time" is the real deal - instead Israel MUST ignore Bush and Co. - otherwise everything may be lost... It is obvious to the world that Arab States do not now [never did] wish to eradicate the world's [re]New[ed] Jewish State - as it would've been a such different reality over the last 55 years - what's happening is - most especially since 1967 - the pain and frustration of these 'occupied peoples and their well-wishers' is at times sounding like that - but that isn't the case - without doubt there can be no real [full] formal acceptance of the RE'new'ED 'Jewish' State - by the Arab [or other] nations - until there is a FULL and independent Palestine. ---- We must look at this situation in the light of our history in north america - when the 'white man' first came here - there were 'red men' already here - white man tried to kill them off [when that failed] - they disrupted their 'system' with guns, booze and [fake] missionaries - and at last they created 'reserves'- where the 'occupied peoples' were deprived and forced to stay - these places were called - 'land settlements' - now let's look at our situation here today - there are still 'reserves' [most in poverty!] and yes - the 'occupied peoples' - so long ago - have had their - >'Right of Return'< - into this 'new' society - Now today we have many of these indigenous peoples [rightly] wanting their own 'original' State [in some form] 'here now' - because [for many] they have not seen as much success [as promised to them] through 'this' integration. ---- Thus the [canadian] government have created recent ideas of 'native self governance' etc., to deal with this - all so much complicity for governments [and peoples!] now and later... ---- I ask the people of Palestine and Israel to think about this 'RIGHT OF RETURN' in this light - it isn't something that future generations are going to appreciate - one might even think that by taking so much territory over the last 36 years there is a potential that Israel - under extreme pressure from the U.S. - will thus calculate the exiles a 'right of return' into the 'jewish state' [under the guise of it being "a provisional palestinian state in training"] - THE RETURN SHALL BE INTO 'SELECT AREAS' TAKEN 36 YEARS AGO... ---- It will become a 'walled' - 'meager reserve' - "THERE" - no State of Palestine - for how many generations to come.... ---- Logic says PALESTINE SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR "RIGHT OF RETURN" DEMANDS -- they can and should avoid so much hell to come and settle for the instant creation of a FULL and INDEPENDENT STATE... ---- We must immediately get on with the fact that a REAL end to this Occupation must come NOW ---- the State of Palestine has been too long 'stalled' over the Jerusalem issue. ---- We must face the reality that part of the 'Justice' here 'naturally demands' that Jerusalem is going to have be again a fully Israeli City. ---- This city is the Hebrew 'Spiritual Center' [or 'teather'] - indeed Muslims in particular can see why it is thus important to them - through comparison to their own 'Spiritual Center' - 'Mecca'. ---- Will this reality [of a change for jerusalem] be - 'need fully' concluded - "Honorably" and through - "Justice" - or "dishonorably" - through the so-called leaders of the World's 'singular' Superpower - cultivating a future 'need less' "Violence and Urban War"? There is the matter of the FULL justice to be fully rendered to the suffering Palestinians and the 'historic move' of the 'Dome and Alaqsa Mosque' to its new location - before the building of the third temple can begin. ---- ANYONE “clearing” [or even thinking of attempts to] the "Temple Mount" - of the ancient and Sacred “Dome of the Rock” [and compound] with a so-called 'Errant’ Rocket attack - [during an impending 'all-out' Urban War which will certainly one day soon break out in Jerusalem – ANYONE doing this will be punished EXTREME severe by KRISHNA [God has His 'ugly side' too - just test Him!?] - He sees us in our world - in the throws of the Age of Quarrel - He sees that our world cannot afford any such activity - it is time NOW - Israel, Great Britain and America [the original 'Partners in Partition'] should 'rightly' and “instantly” pay out the Billions of Dollars needed to move the 'Dome of the Rock' and the adjoining Mosque Compound -- ‘Stone by Stone’; HERE IS THE CLINCHER -- to move them onto the “Judicious and Auspicious” border of Jordan – ‘there’ the Palestinian peoples must be - “Empowered by the World Community” [and (in real time) financed by Israel, Great Britain and America - with 'other' international help] to create a NEW ‘State of the Art Capital City’ - THIS must be done for the Palestinians - they must now get their deserved New State. A State whose “borders” must NOT be marginalized into “a few miles” or into a “city-state”. ---- Thus - if old Jerusalem can EVER see her new 'third' Temple – then an offering of 'this' honorable “move” is Israel's FIRST step – if it be a so-called ‘Errant’ Rocket [with yet more peoples displaced in a future "Transfer"] which gets their Temple “building process” underway [all this recent rocket attack activity directed at Hamas - could look like a scene leading to an eventual errant one or two...?] -- then the laws of material nature and common sense logic dictate sure results: NO amount of Diplomacy or Political Maneuvering shall promote “Resolution” - what to speak of “Peace” and “Security” FOR A VERY LONG TIME. -'our' ever so 'little' world we have now seen Bush and Co. abuse the U.N. - at one point [for once it was admitted!] they were employing counter intelligence personal and who knows what technologies to needlessly spy on their own allies [to calculate them]! ---- We will see escalated fighting continue - if there are any more assassination attempts by the Likud "party" on the Hamas "party" - will such very stupid moves restore hope? - Israel cannot go on and on like this - they have come to the cross roads - Krishna shall show 'them' the way to peace too - if they seek it. ---- If they ignore this - how long then before there isn't enough resolve in anyone to permit a resolution of this 5+ decades long Palestinian Occupation without a Bush and Co. 'seeded' global chaos? [is 'that' at the heart of Bush and Co.'s plan - or is it simply a time delayed method to another 'darker' plan?] ---- Time to expand this vague "road map" to Palestinian Statehood - and Global Peace! Other issues and Nations need to be included! ---- When these 'historic decisions' - to bring the two 'equal' States into Secure and Peaceful co-existence are concluded [and it'll be sooner than they think!] - the 'decision makers' must present a clear Plan to these parties - a plan which includes a FULL CUT AWAY from each other - there must be TWO "Independent" States [not that one is 'provisional' and the other is not] - with a 50/50 - 'non fragmented' - allocation of the territories [***minus the city of Jerusalem***] - a 50/50 share in water/sea ports and ALL other natural resources - a 60/40 [israel gets 60%] share of existing national/international market and investment segments/sectors [without this can they have any real economy - they would've had 'that' and more by now - had there not been the [cash cult] 'games' over all these years?] - the new Palestinian currency trades on instant 'par' with Israel's. ***Palestine must receive [without debt] as 'instantly' as possible - a comprehensive new "State of the Art" Capital City*** - and proper infrastructure - with international assistance to create full [supporting] Urban and Rural Communities - for two plus million exiles [in addition to the possibility of one to three million living within their Capital] - there must be FULL 'Reparations' in ALL Respects... ----- >>>>>>NO MORE anyone trying to KILL anyone to make things happen [or not happen]! [last part edited cause Acts10 was fixated on it] ---- Is the State of Israel ready to see the - "Arm of the Lord"... Your Servant, Bhakta Don Muntean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 'Hamas' and 'Islamic Jihad' and other smaller political [legitmate] 'groups' are Hearing the Historic - 'Call to Peace' - NO they are NOT '...ticking time bombs...regrouping...' - the embattled peoples are asking for clear requirements: "...list of requirements of Israel, including that it stop all "acts of aggression" against Palestinians — including arrests and killings of accused militants and that it release all "political prisoners" and lift its travel restrictions on Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader..." [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/28/international/middleeast/28CND-MIDE.html?ex=1057820289&ei=1&en=98dd3fb10e601741] --- It isn't that Israel wishes to never resolve this serious problem - I am sure they are most especially feeling evermore calculated over the last twenty two years - acting under the impetus of the U.S. based 'cash cult' - they are "set-up" - we can see they have been ill-led - [most recently by] Bush and Co. - now they can see the many generations of the 'group' [who have been] operating out of the U.S. State [no matter who is elected over the last 22 years - the U.S. has become a kind of 'home' to many of the dejected leaders forming the new world order state - leaders who may not want the changes they know are coming] - so we see that for a price the U.S. has been 'fixing' the U.N. process - interference leading to a lack of U.N. actions and/or reprisals on Israel for violations of so many resolutions in connection to the occupation - by this time - Israel must see 'who' has been thus engaging them in an corner not expected - nor desired.... Israel must NOT continue to ignore the present - 'Call to Peace' - because this "time" is the real deal - instead Israel MUST ignore Bush and Co. - otherwise everything may be lost... It is obvious to the world that Arab States do not now [never did] wish to eradicate the world's [re]New[ed] Jewish State - as it would've been a such different reality over the last 55 years - what's happening is - most especially since 1967 - the pain and frustration of these 'occupied peoples and their well-wishers' is at times sounding like that - but that isn't the case - without doubt there can be no real [full] formal acceptance of the RE'new'ED 'Jewish' State - by the Arab [or other] nations - until there is a FULL and independent Palestine. ---- We must look at this situation in the light of our history in north america - when the 'white man' first came here - there were 'red men' already here - white man tried to kill them off [when that failed] - they disrupted their 'system' with guns, booze and [fake] missionaries - and at last they created 'reserves'- where the 'occupied peoples' were deprived and forced to stay - these places were called - 'land settlements' - now let's look at our situation here today - there are still 'reserves' [most in poverty!] and yes - the 'occupied peoples' - so long ago - have had their - >'Right of Return'< - into this 'new' society - Now today we have many of these indigenous peoples [rightly] wanting their own 'original' State [in some form] 'here now' - because [for many] they have not seen as much success [as promised to them] through 'this' integration. ---- Thus the [canadian] government have created recent ideas of 'native self governance' etc., to deal with this - all so much complicity for governments [and peoples!] now and later... ---- I ask the people of Palestine and Israel to think about this 'RIGHT OF RETURN' in this light - it isn't something that future generations are going to appreciate - one might even think that by taking so much territory over the last 36 years there is a potential that Israel - under extreme pressure from the U.S. - will thus calculate the exiles a 'right of return' into the 'jewish state' [under the guise of it being "a provisional palestinian state in training"] - THE RETURN SHALL BE INTO 'SELECT AREAS' TAKEN 36 YEARS AGO... ---- It will become a 'walled' - 'meager reserve' - "THERE" - no State of Palestine - for how many generations to come.... ---- Logic says PALESTINE SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR "RIGHT OF RETURN" DEMANDS -- they can and should avoid so much hell to come and settle for the instant creation of a FULL and INDEPENDENT STATE... ---- We must immediately get on with the fact that a REAL end to this Occupation must come NOW ---- the State of Palestine has been too long 'stalled' over the Jerusalem issue. ---- We must face the reality that part of the 'Justice' here 'naturally demands' that Jerusalem is going to have be again a fully Israeli City. ---- This city is the Hebrew 'Spiritual Center' [or 'teather'] - indeed Muslims in particular can see why it is thus important to them - through comparison to their own 'Spiritual Center' - 'Mecca'. ---- Will this reality [of a change for jerusalem] be - 'need fully' concluded - "Honorably" and through - "Justice" - or "dishonorably" - through the so-called leaders of the World's 'singular' Superpower - cultivating a future 'need less' "Violence and Urban War"? There is the matter of the FULL justice to be fully rendered to the suffering Palestinians and the 'historic move' of the 'Dome and Alaqsa Mosque' to its new location - before the building of the third temple can begin. ---- ANYONE “clearing” [or even thinking of attempts to] the "Temple Mount" - of the ancient and Sacred “Dome of the Rock” [and compound] with a so-called 'Errant’ Rocket attack - [during an impending 'all-out' Urban War which will certainly one day soon break out in Jerusalem – ANYONE doing this will be punished EXTREME severe by KRISHNA [God has His 'ugly side' too - just test Him!?] - He sees us in our world - in the throws of the Age of Quarrel - He sees that our world cannot afford any such activity - it is time NOW - Israel, Great Britain and America [the original 'Partners in Partition'] should 'rightly' and “instantly” pay out the Billions of Dollars needed to move the 'Dome of the Rock' and the adjoining Mosque Compound -- ‘Stone by Stone’; HERE IS THE CLINCHER -- to move them onto the “Judicious and Auspicious” border of Jordan – ‘there’ the Palestinian peoples must be - “Empowered by the World Community” [and (in real time) financed by Israel, Great Britain and America - with 'other' international help] to create a NEW ‘State of the Art Capital City’ - THIS must be done for the Palestinians - they must now get their deserved New State. A State whose “borders” must NOT be marginalized into “a few miles” or into a “city-state”. ---- Thus - if old Jerusalem can EVER see her new 'third' Temple – then an offering of 'this' honorable “move” is Israel's FIRST step – if it be a so-called ‘Errant’ Rocket [with yet more peoples displaced in a future "Transfer"] which gets their Temple “building process” underway [all this recent rocket attack activity directed at Hamas - could look like a scene leading to an eventual errant one or two...?] -- then the laws of material nature and common sense logic dictate sure results: NO amount of Diplomacy or Political Maneuvering shall promote “Resolution” - what to speak of “Peace” and “Security” FOR A VERY LONG TIME. -'our' ever so 'little' world we have now seen Bush and Co. abuse the U.N. - at one point [for once it was admitted!] they were employing counter intelligence personal and who knows what technologies to needlessly spy on their own allies [to calculate them]! ---- We will see escalated fighting continue - if there are any more assassination attempts by the Likud "party" on the Hamas "party" - will such very stupid moves restore hope? - Israel cannot go on and on like this - they have come to the cross roads - Krishna shall show 'them' the way to peace too - if they seek it. ---- If they ignore this - how long then before there isn't enough resolve in anyone to permit a resolution of this 5+ decades long Palestinian Occupation without a Bush and Co. 'seeded' global chaos? [is 'that' at the heart of Bush and Co.'s plan - or is it simply a time delayed method to another 'darker' plan?] ---- Time to expand this vague "road map" to Palestinian Statehood - and Global Peace! Other issues and Nations need to be included! ---- When these 'historic decisions' - to bring the two 'equal' States into Secure and Peaceful co-existence are concluded [and it'll be sooner than they think!] - the 'decision makers' must present a clear Plan to these parties - a plan which includes a FULL CUT AWAY from each other - there must be TWO "Independent" States [not that one is 'provisional' and the other is not] - with a 50/50 - 'non fragmented' - allocation of the territories [***minus the city of Jerusalem***] - a 50/50 share in water/sea ports and ALL other natural resources - a 60/40 [israel gets 60%] share of existing national/international market and investment segments/sectors [without this can they have any real economy - they would've had 'that' and more by now - had there not been the [cash cult] 'games' over all these years?] - the new Palestinian currency trades on instant 'par' with Israel's. ***Palestine must receive [without debt] as 'instantly' as possible - a comprehensive new "State of the Art" Capital City*** - and proper infrastructure - with international assistance to create full [supporting] Urban and Rural Communities - for two plus million exiles [in addition to the possibility of one to three million living within their Capital] - there must be FULL 'Reparations' in ALL Respects... ----- >>>>>>NO MORE anyone trying to KILL anyone to make things happen [or not happen]! [last part edited cause Acts10 was fixated on it] ---- Is the State of Israel ready to see the - "Arm of the Lord"... http://forums.arabia.com/WebX?14@156.Iuunal3Bnxy.0@.1dea90d7!content=EN&page=1&sort=recent&view=expanded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 They have some heavy karma .Is it called race karma ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 who is who has not a heavy karma in this world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 K /images/graemlins/mad.gif Krazy A /images/graemlins/blush.gif Antagonistic R /images/graemlins/shocked.gif Rebellious M /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Mad A /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Arrangement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 Heretics and Jews in the Writings of Ademar of Chabannes and the Origins of Medieval Anti-Semitism Table of Content I. ADEMAR'S HISTORY AND THE JEWS OF AQUITAINE II. IMAGE OF THE JEWS IN ADEMAR'S SERMONS III. CONCLUSION Although many scholars now recognize the turn of the millennium as the key point in the development of medieval civilization and the birth of Europe, there remains a tendency to look to the twelfth and thirteenth centuries as the period in which cultural and intellectual norms emerged that would define medieval civilization. This cultural flourishing, long ago recognized as a renaissance by Charles Henry Haskins, has, in recent years, taken on more ominous tones.[1] Certainly this was a period of great intellectual fervor, but it was also, as R. I. Moore has shown, a time of persecution.[2] Just as medieval theologians offered positive definitions of the Christian faith and Christian society, they defined the "other" - the enemy who stood in stark contrast to all that was true and good in society. And in Western Christendom there were no greater enemies than the Jew and the heretic. Indeed, it has generally been recognized that Jewish fortunes increasingly worsened during the course of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Beginning with the pogroms of the First Crusade, the situation for the Jews of Europe progressively deteriorated, and the image of the Jew became increasingly negative as they were defined as the diabolical enemy of Christendom and associated with heretics, witches, the minions of Antichrist, and the devil.[3] It was in this period, it is generally recognized, that anti-Semitism was born, or perhaps reborn, and laid the foundation for the continued irrational fear and persecution of the Jewish people.[4] The origins of the medieval, and in some ways modern, tradition of anti-Jewish sentiment, however, can be found not in the twelfth but in the early eleventh century.[5] It was at this time that the long-standing hostility to the Jews found in both classical antiquity and primitive Christianity underwent a profound change and a new image, more negative and irrational, of the Jew emerged in society. Prior to the year 1000 Christian attitudes toward the Jews, even the most virulent of these attitudes, were shaped by the doctrine of witness established by Augustine of Hippo. Indeed, anti-Jewish sentiment emerged from the very outset of the history of the Church, when it formed part of the broader effort to distinguish Christians and Jews in the eyes of the imperial authority. The Gospels and letters of Paul contain passages critical of the Jews and their faith and are generally openly hostile to the Jews.[6] And numerous Christian writers from the Evangelists to the church fathers indulged in anti-Jewish polemic, asserting some of the ideas that would characterize later anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism. As Gavin Langmuir notes, early Christian theologians declared that Judaism had been superceded by Christianity and that the Jews were the killers of Christ.[7] The theological hostility to the Jews was matched by political persecution once the Roman Empire became Christian. Laws were enacted that limited the legal and economic rights of the Jews, forbade Jews from owning Christian slaves, and prohibited marriage between Christians and Jews.[8] In the early Middle Ages, the Carolingian bishops Agobard of Lyons and Hincmar of Rheims promoted anti-Jewish agendas.[9] But even though anti-Jewish sentiment existed in late antiquity and the early Middle Ages, it was expressed with some ambivalence. Despite the tendency to accuse the Jews of the worst crime - the murder of Jesus - many theologians, including Origen and Tertullian, expressed attitudes more favorable to the Jews.[10] Indeed, even Augustine, whose role in the history of anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism has long been recognized, had a much more nuanced attitude toward that faith than generally noted. His criticism of Judaism was often harsh, an almost natural reaction for faiths in competition for souls, but he maintained good relations with Jews and was open to discussion with them.[11] Moreover, Agobard's diatribe against the Jews was motivated by what he saw to be Louis the Pious's too-favorable treatment of them. And much of the early medieval anti-Jewish writing was little more than the direct borrowing of patristic polemic, but without the conviction expressed by some ancient authors.[12] This situation would change, however, after the turn of the millennium, especially, as many have noted, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. The emergence of new and harsher anti-Judaism was part of the broader intellectual and religious changes occurring in medieval civilization. Anti-Jewish attitudes, therefore, existed before the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but they were qualitatively and quantitatively different from what they would become.[13] I. ADEMAR'S HISTORY AND THE JEWS OF AQUITAINE The emergence of the negative stereotype of the Jew is well-illustrated in the history and sermons of Ademar of Chabannes (989-1034).[14] A monk of Angoulême and Limoges, Ademar was a master of the arts of the scriptorium and an ardent supporter of the cult of the apostle St. Martial. His talents as writer and copyist were used to support the effort in the mid-1020s to declare Martial an apostle. He composed a new liturgy for the cult, as well as sermons and music, and was a leader in the movement to proclaim Martial an apostle.[15] Ademar was defeated in public debate, however, on the day that his new apostolic liturgy for Martial was to be presented, and he then retired to his monastery in Angoulême, St. Cybard, where he composed a series of interlocking forgeries designed to prove that he had won the debate and that Martial was actually recognized as an apostle. It was these forgeries, including two magnificent collections of sermons, that reveal his deepest concerns and the extent of his mastery of the arts of the scriptorium.[16] The sermons, written just prior to his departure for Jerusalem in 1033 (from which he would not return), and the work of history he wrote and revised during the course of the 1020s provide unique and important insights into the beliefs and concerns at the turn of the first millennium. These texts also reveal the rise of anti-Judaic sentiments that would come to inform later traditions of anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism.[17] Ademar's history provides clear illustration of nascent anti-Semitism in the early eleventh century, with reference to three separate episodes of persecution of the Jews. In 1010 the bishop of Limoges, Hilduin, forced the Jews of his city either to convert to Christianity or to leave the city. He ordered learned men to debate with the Jews and to instruct them in the matters of the Christian faith so that they would learn the truth and convert. Although three or four Jews did convert to Christianity, the vast majority of the Jews of Limoges refused to convert and left the city, and some even committed suicide rather than accept baptism. Ademar does not state clearly what inspired Hilduin to initiate his persecution of the Jews of Limoges, but it may have been a reaction to growing Jewish immigration, the appearance of heresy, or the result of heightened apocalyptic concerns.[18] The last possibility is confirmed in Ademar's epilogue to the story of Hilduin's forced conversion of the Jews because he places it in the context of the destruction of the church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem by al-Hakim, an event with pronounced apocalyptic overtones for Ademar and his contemporaries.[19] According to Ademar, in the same year as the forced conversions of the Jews of Limoges the church was destroyed by al-Hakim, whom Ademar calls "Nabuchodonosor Babiloniae," because the Jews sent a letter to the East warning that Christian armies were planning an attack against the Saracens.[20] Not only did al-Hakim attack the church, but he also persecuted Christians and forced them to convert or die. And, unlike the Jews of Limoges, only three or four Christians in the East refused to convert to Islam and accepted martyrdom. There was a clear, causal connection between the two incidents for Ademar; harassment of the Jews in the West led to the persecution of Christians in the East in retribution. Indeed for Ademar and his contemporaries the Jews were surely allies of the Christendom's greatest foreign foe, and were seen as fifth columnists in league with the forces of Islam to destroy Christians and their faith.[21] The association of al-Hakim and the Jews further demonstrates the apocalyptic nature of Ademar's hostility to the Jews and further suggests the influence of apocalyptic anxiety on the development of anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism. The belief that there was a natural alliance between the Jews and al-Hakim, and the Muslims in general, was reinforced by the developing legend of Antichrist.[22] According to the Antichrist legend, which received its classic expression in the tenth century, the Jews would flock to Antichrist because they did not accept Jesus as the Christ.[23] It is clear that Ademar accepted this medieval myth and believed that the Jews would associate themselves with a diabolical force dedicated to the destruction of Christendom, because in the early 1030s he wrote that the Jews still awaited the Incarnation and would receive Antichrist for Christ.[24] In his history he cast al-Hakim as an Antichrist because of his destruction of the Holy Sepulcher and persecution of Christians. For Ademar, therefore, it was an obvious and natural development that the Jews of Western Europe would associate themselves with al-Hakim. Ademar's own apocalyptic anxieties, which increased as the millennium of the Passion approached, provided him further support for his developing anti-Semitism. Indeed both passions, hatred of the Jews and apocalypticism, reinforced Ademar's negative image of the Jews. Ademar reports two further incidents of Jewish persecution during the course of the next decade, occurring possibly in 1020 or 1021, that demonstrate the emergence of a more pervasive hostility in the Christian West toward the Jews. The first of these accounts, an incident purportedly occurring in Rome, also contributed to the emerging negative stereotype of the Jews.[25] As the monk of Aquitaine notes in his chronicle, there was an earthquake and great storm in Rome during the Easter season. A certain Jew informed the pope, Benedict VIII, that at the same time that these natural disasters were occurring the Jews were mocking the cross in their synagogues. The perpetrators of this crime were arrested and condemned to death for their actions, a sentence that brought the storms to an end.[26] Ademar's account of the incident at Rome provides an early example of alleged Jewish abuse of Christian images and symbols. Accusations of mocking Christ or the cross would be a commonplace allegation against the Jews in the later Middle Ages and were further evidence that the Jew was the enemy of Christian society.[27] The accusation of mocking the cross, which lacks any basis in Jewish belief or practice, is clearly an irrational act characteristic of medieval anti-Semitism. Ademar's claims not only prefigure later accusations but also raise the notion of the connection of Jews and heretics in the mind of the monk of Angoulême. Heretics in Aquitaine, Orleans, and elsewhere in Western Europe were also accused of denying the cross in the early eleventh century.[28] Ademar himself asserts in his history that the heretics of Aquitaine who emerged in 1018, or Manichaeans as he calls them, "denied baptism, the cross, and all sane doctrine."[29] His account of these so-called "Manichaeans" is supported by the recently discovered eleventh-century copy of the letter of Heribert, which describes heretics who refused to venerate the cross and mocked those who did honor the cross, saying "Oh how miserable are those who adore you."[30] The Jews, therefore, were associated in Ademar's history with both the Muslims - the greatest external threat to Christendom, and the heretics - the greatest internal threat. The association of Jews with heretics and Muslims has been recognized as an essential reclassification of the Jew that would be an important step in the emergence of medieval anti-Semitism.[31] Indeed Anselm, Alan of Lille, and other twelfth-century figures long identified with the emergence of a new and greater anti-Jewish fervor stressed the similarity of Jews, Muslims, and heretics.[32] As Jeremy Cohen notes, this process would deprive the Jew of "that singularity which distinguished him and underlay his worth."[33] Consequently, the theological model of the Jew and doctrine of Jewish witness established by Augustine, which defined earlier, less hostile attitudes toward the Jew, was undermined by the identification of Jews and other enemies of the faith. That it appears already in the history and, as we shall see below, the sermons of Ademar indicates that the medieval anti-Semitic stereotype of the Jew was emerging a century or more before it is usually thought to have appeared. The final incident Ademar describes in his history follows immediately after his account of the incident in Rome. This episode involves the bestowal of the colaphus Judeo, or ritual blow to the face, that was administered in Toulouse. According to Ademar, this blow was administered every Easter according to local custom. On this occasion, the colaphus, delivered by Hugh, the chaplain of Viscount Aimery of Rochechouart, was so severe that the eyes of his victim burst from his head and he died immediately. In a way this incident and the one at Rome are linked together. Although Ademar does not state why the ritual slap was given, its performance at Easter suggests that it was a punishment for the Jews' murder of Jesus. The notion that the Jews were deicides was an important component of the anti-Semitic view and reinforced the belief that the Jews should be punished. Moreover, the belief that the Jews killed Christ was the evidence needed to prove that the Jews continued to persecute Christ when they mocked the cross or destroyed the Eucharist. The close proximity in Ademar's history of the mocking of the cross and the colaphus suggests that Ademar made the connection between past and contemporary Jewish crimes against Christ and the Church.[34] II. IMAGE OF THE JEWS IN ADEMAR'S SERMONS Ademar's work of history offers important evidence of the persecution of the Jews and the emergence of anti-Jewish sentiment at the turn of the millennium, but even greater proof of the developing stereotype of the Jew as the enemy of Christ and all Christians can be found in the sermons Ademar wrote in the last years of his life. The sermons, now in Paris, B.N. MS Lat. 2469 and Berlin, D.S. MS Lat. Phillipps 1664, contain his most personal and most extended meditations on the nature of the faith. They demonstrate his devotion to the cult of St. Martial and are his defense of apostolicity of his patron. The sermons also reveal his eschatological concerns and his heightened awareness of the religious "other" - heretics, Saracens, and Jews. Indeed the sermons are his great defense of orthodoxy, prepared to demonstrate his own adherence to the Christian faith of his day and to denounce the errors of the unbelievers who appeared in greater numbers in his native Aquitaine.[35] This defense led not only to a fuller articulation of the sacerdotal and sacramental system of the church but also to the creation of the image of the "other" - particularly of Jews and heretics who for Ademar stood in stark contrast to orthodox Christians. Although greater attention was paid throughout the sermons, especially in the Berlin manuscript (the later of the two collections), to the definition and denunciation of the traditional Christian heresies, Ademar was very much concerned with the Jews, the heretics' allies in the assault on Christianity.[36] In many ways, Ademar believed that the Jews were similar to the heretics. Certainly for Ademar the Jews were among the greatest enemies of the Christians, and in that sense they belonged in the category of Christianity's rivals. Consequently, throughout the sermons, Ademar associates the Jews with heretics. At several points in the sermon De Eucharistia Ademar makes this association, declaring early in the sermon that the Jews and heretics spoke blasphemous words about the birth of Christ.[37] Ademar notes later in the sermon that "the congregation of the Jews, pagans, Saracens, and all heretics" is in opposition to the Christian congregation, which believes in the true faith.[38] Shortly after this passage he again contrasts the true church with the false churches of pagans, Jews, and heretics.[39] In later sermons he goes further, not only joining together all temporal enemies of the church but also linking them with the devil.[40] In one of his conciliar sermons, Ademar says that the Catholic faith is the source of strength for Christians but is the cause of the destruction of "Jews and Saracens and pagans and heretics and antichrists and devils."[41] Lastly, in the sermon on the Mass, Ademar again links the Jews with the enemies of Christianity, declaring that the devil, Jews, Saracens, pagans, and heretics are in opposition to God.[42] Ademar believed that the Jews were allies of the heretics and Saracens and nearly identical to them because each of these groups rejected the truth of the Christian faith. In one of the later synodal sermons, he clearly identifies Jews and heretics as essentially the same when he notes that just as the Jews in Jesus' day refused to believe that he was the living bread, now, in Ademar's own day, the heretics refuse to believe in the truth of the Eucharist.[43] Indeed Ademar's concern with the Eucharist throughout the sermons was no doubt predicated on the challenge mounted by the heretics and the Jews. Although there is no evidence from the sermons to suggest that he thought that the Jews of his day indulged in the desecration of the host, there is evidence to suggest that he thought Jews guilty of desecrating Christian symbols.[44] And in Ademar's mind, both the Jews and heretics denied the truth of the Eucharist, which may be seen as the intellectual parallel to physical harm of the Eucharist. In the face of the repudiation of one of the central symbols and sacraments of the faith, Ademar defended its truth by describing a number of eucharistie miracles. In the sermon In Sinodo sermo (fols. 103r-112v), he cites a miracle in which the body of a child was seen divided over the altar in the hands of the priest rather than the bread of the Eucharist.[45] He notes also in this sermon that a boy was seen seated on the altar before the bread was broken and that the same boy was transformed into the bread and wine. There were also miracles, Ademar continues, involving angels appearing over the altar and a vision of a lamb whose blood filled the chalice when it was broken in the hands of the priest. Indeed, the stories of eucharistie miracles were the best way to prove the truth of the sacrament of the Eucharist in the face of the unbelief of Jews and the errors of the heretics.[46] Ademar demonstrates his understanding that the Jews were in league with the other enemies of the faith when he describes their understanding of the Godhead. He argues in the sermon Sermo ad sinodum de Catholica fide that Jews and Saracens lie when they proclaim their belief in God because they do not accept the Trinity and thus do not rightly believe.[47] Moreover, throughout the sermons of the Berlin manuscript he discusses the errors of Arians, Sabellians, and other heretics concerning the Trinity.[48] In one of the later sermons from MS 1664, In Sinodo sermo de oratione dominion ad missam, he explains that for "heretics and Jews and pagans and false Christians the name of God is not sanctified because they do not believe in God nor do they accept his law but instead hold the holy Trinity in derision."[49] This is an especially egregious error for Ademar because the Jews have the truth revealed in their own holy books. Indeed, prefiguring one of the central ideas of the later medieval anti-Jewish stereotype, Ademar explains in his sermon on the Catholic faith that there is extensive testimony in the books of the Jews revealing the truth of the Trinity. Indeed he argues further in that sermon that the Jews can find the truth of the Trinity in their books, just as they can find the truth of the nativity, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ revealed in the books of the prophets, although they refuse to believe what they read.[50] Jewish repudiation of the truth revealed in their scriptures is not without consequence for Ademar. In a later section of the sermon on the Catholic faith, Ademar returns to the issue of Jewish repudiation of revelation. He repeats the statement that the Jews do not accept what is clearly stated by the prophets in their holy books and argues further that the Jews living at the time of Christ knew that they were living in the time of the Messiah's appearance, as the prophets had taught them. Despite having access to the truth, the Jews did not and do not accept the truth of Christ and instead await the coming of a future messiah. Ademar then presents another critical belief of medieval anti-Jewish thought, which was rooted in the teachings of Jerome but took on much greater force and wider circulation beginning in the eleventh century.[51] Drawing, perhaps, from Jerome's Commentary on Daniel, which he copied into the Berlin manuscript, Ademar alleges that because the Jews killed Christ they have incurred the wrath of God, and therefore they will receive Antichrist not Christ as their savior.[52] The association with Antichrist reinforces the notion that the Jews are like the heretics, whom Ademar calls "messengers of Antichrist," and also emphasizes that the Jews are allies of the devil himself.[53] The connection of the Jews and Antichrist, furthermore, would become an important part of the medieval anti-Semitic myth.[54] The association of the Jews with Antichrist and the devil, as Joshua Trachtenberg once observed, made it conceivable that they could commit even the greatest crimes.[55] For Ademar and other medieval writers, the greatest of all crimes was the murder of Christ. The Jews' willingness to kill Christ, according to the emerging image of them, was the result of their rejection of the truth that he was the messiah. Inspired, perhaps, by the growing attention to the human, suffering Christ on the cross, Ademar returns to the idea that the Jews killed Christ in a number of sermons in the Berlin manuscript.[56] In a passage from his sermon on the Catholic faith in which he tells of St. Martial's raisings of the dead, Ademar has his patron declare, "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom the Jews crucified and who rose from the dead on the third day, I command you to rise."[57] Describing each of Martial's numerous raisings of the dead, Ademar repeats this invocation several times in the sermon and thus reinforces the notion of the Jews as killers of Christ. In one of the late sermons, simply entitled In Sinodo sermo, Ademar notes that Christ was bound to the cross by the Jews.[58] In a later section of that same sermon, Ademar describes Christ as the "true and living bread" who was crucified by the Jews.[59] And in a third section from the synodal sermon, Ademar identifies Christ as the true priest who sacrificed himself and who was raised up onto the cross by the Jews.[60] In his sermon on the mystery of the Mass Ademar repeats the notion that the Jews were Christ-killers, explaining that it is their impiety and desire to remove his name from the earth that led them to crucify Christ.[61] The Jews, Ademar notes later in this sermon, sacrificed Christ on the cross because of their envy, unlike priests who sacrifice Christ daily on the altar "not because of envy but because of goodness and obedience to his will."62 In the sermon De Eucharistia, Ademar comments on one further aspect of the developing medieval stereotype of the Jews when he draws the connection between their alleged murder of Christ and continued Jewish violence against the crucifix and Christian symbols in Ademar's own day.[63] The Jews blasphemed Christ when he was on the cross, Ademar asserts in one passage, and in another he alleges that the Jews and heretics continue to blaspheme the cross when they say it is an idol of wood. Moreover, citing John 19:7 where the Jews demand that Pilate condemn Jesus to death "because he made himself the son of God," Ademar repeats the idea that the Jews, because of jealousy, are the killers of Christ.[64] This section is followed by a long passage describing the great power of the cross over its enemies and a defense of its veneration. Ademar, in a passage that recalls the discussion from his history of abuse of the cross in Rome, then describes Jewish violence against the cross. The Jews allegedly wounded the figure on the cross with lance blows, causing a miraculous effusion of blood and water from its side just as Christ himself bled on the cross.[65] Thus, for Ademar as for later medieval writers, Jewish hostility began with the murder of Christ and continued with violence against Christian symbols in Ademar's own day. And, although these alleged violations of Christian symbols lacked any objective reality in contemporary Jewish belief or practice, they reinforced the notion that the Jews were the committed foes of all Christians. III. CONCLUSION The origins of medieval anti-Semitism, thus, can be found not in the twelfth century but in the eleventh. As the writings of Ademar demonstrate, the various traits that came to characterize the medieval attitude toward the Jews and treatment of the Jews by Christians were already present in the early eleventh century. His history records open persecution of the Jews, including forced conversions, expulsion, and physical violence to the point of death. The history also provides evidence that the image of the Jew as enemy of the faith was beginning to emerge. It was this image that would justify the persecution of the Jews in the later Middle Ages and that would receive further attention in Ademar's sermons. It is in the sermons that the image of the Jew as enemy of the faith, as a heretic or Antichrist or ally of the Saracens, is developed. For Ademar, the Jews were a threat to the faith because they refused to believe the truth to be found in their own scriptures and because of their undying hostility toward Christians. Indeed, many of the elements that would make up the late medieval as well as the modern negative stereotype of the Jews can be found in the early eleventh-century writings of Ademar of Chabannes. These writings demonstrate an attitude that justified the persecution of the Jews in Ademar's day and would lay the foundation for greater crimes against them in the generations and centuries to come. I would like to thank the organizers of the annual Southeastern Medieval Association meeting at the University of Tennessee in Oct. 1999 for allowing me to present a version of this paper. I would like to thank Elizabeth Dachowski for her comments on this paper at this meeting, which proved most helpful for the revision of the paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 The Popes Against the Jews The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism By David I. Kertzer David Kertzer, author of the acclaimed study of the kidnapping of the Jewish child Edgardo Mortara by Pope Pius IX, here expands his purview to take in the anti-Semitic behavior of all the popes from the restoration of the Papal States in 1814 to the accession of Pius XII in 1939. His study, he says, was partly motivated by recent Vatican statements that drew a distinction between anti-Judaism, which the Vatican admitted the church had fostered, and anti-Semitism, which it claimed it had not and which had led to the Holocaust. This claim, Kertzer says, is entirely false, as is "the notion that the Church fostered only negative 'religious' views of the Jews, and not negative images of their harmful social, economic, cultural, and political effects." He bases his argument upon wide re ading in the Vatican archives and in the major Vatican publications. Kertzer's major thesis is this: "If the Vatican never approved of the extermination of the Jews [by the Nazis]...the teachings and actions of the Church, including those of the popes themselves, helped make it possible." Thus, on the controversy over Pius XII and the Holocaust, the die was already cast by the time Nazi eliminationism began, "by a pervasive culture of Vatican anti-Semitism." His proof is that the popes, as monarchs of Rome and the Papal States, imposed onerous restrictions upon the Jews in their domain, and then, after the loss of their temporal sphere, encouraged the growth of modern anti-Semitism by their own statements, their support of anti-Semitic political parties in the Catholic states and by their implicit approval of anti-Semitic articles in the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, and the Vatican Jesuit semi-monthly La Civiltà Cattolica. It is a bleak picture he paints. After Napoleon had emancipated the Jews in the Papal States, Pius VII reimposed restrictions when he was restored to power in 1814. He and successive popes, as rulers of the Papal States, restricted Jews to the ghettoes, issued decrees forcing them to listen to periodic sermons, used vile epithets to describe them, accepted the belief that they practiced ritual murder (killing Christian children for their blood) and, worse, took Jewish children who had been surreptitiously baptized (as in the case of young Mortara) away from their parents and raised them in Catholic institutions, in addition to forcing Jewish men who asked for conversion to bring their wives and children for conversion as well. There is little that can be said to defend the popes in these actions. Kertzer puts the worse slant on all this; but of course, there can be no good slant. It was dreadful behavior on the part of the popes. The second part of the book covers the period from the loss of the Papal States in 1870 to the beginning of World War II in 1939. With the Jews emancipated in the new Italian state, the Catholic press became the chief instrument of Vatican anti-Semitism, opposed to the Jews as purveyors of a cultural modernism at odds with traditional Catholicism. La Civiltà Cattolica took the lead, continuing the myth of Jewish ritual murder and, by the beginning of the 20th century, claiming that the Jews were harbingers of bolshevism. Moreover, the Catholic press in Austria and France followed suit. While none of this information is new, it is again dreadful and indefensible behavior. What is new is Kertzer's attack upon Pius XI (1922-39). While most critics of Pius XII (1939-58) blame him for his alleged silence on the Holocaust, those same critics contrast him with his predecessor, arguing that Pius XI would not have been silent. They cite his encyclical against Nazism, Mit Brennender Sorge, and his opposition to both Hitler and Mussolini. Kertzer will have none of this. He finds Pius XI as anti-Semitic as his predecessors, because his volleys against Nazism did not mention the Jews, because La Civiltà Cattolica continued its anti-Semitic articles during his pontificate and because he favored anti-Semitic authors with praise for their books. The reason for this, Kertzer contends, is that Pius XI had been nuncio to Warsaw before his election to the papacy, and his contacts there with the Polish clergy led him to become anti-Semitic and to adopt their attitudes toward the Jews. And yet, despite all of these findings and claims and impressive research, The Popes Against the Jews does not convince. That the 19th-century popes were anti-Semitic, yes; that the popes after the loss of the Papal States were, to the degree that Kertzer portrays, no. This is a polemical work. The narrative and analysis are driven by the mission, and in the process history is not served. Despite the 19th-century papal restrictions, it is questionable how rigorously they were enforced. Kertzer tells us that some bishops in the Papal States appealed to the popes, claiming that the Jews were not obeying papal orders and were getting away with it. It appears, then, that while the popes made laws, neither the Jews nor the common folk paid much attention to them. And, throughout it all, popular opinion appears to have been against the persecution of the Jews. Papal pro forma acceptance of anti-Semitic authors' books is made to appear as if the popes actually read the books and approved of everything said in them. Above all, the author greatly overrates the power of the popes and the Vatican. About Pius XI, Kertzer says, had he not been nuncio to Poland, "the whole twentieth century history of the Church might have been different." Maybe so, but Kertzer does not tell us how. The implication is that Pius would have been able to put an end to Catholic anti-Semitism everywhere. This presumes more power and influence for the pope than he actually had. And Kertzer's main argument about the Vatican's responsibility for the Holocaust is simply not proved. It is a huge leap from Rome to Auschwitz, especially if the Germans are left out. The most convincing argument against Kertzer's thesis is the behavior of the Italian people and clergy, who, we must presume, were those Europeans most likely to have read L'Osservatore Romano and La Civiltà Cattolica-and of whom Kertzer says "the Vatican had more direct influence over popular attitudes in Italy than elsewhere." Apparently, the Italians did not pay much attention to the Vatican pronouncements, for when the Germans brought the Holocaust to Italy, the Italians were the most caring for the Jews, hiding and helping them to escape the German terror-in many cases under the leadership of the Italian clergy to this humane end. PHOTO (COLOR) ~~~~~~~~ By Jose M. Sanchez José M. Sánchez, the author of Pius XII and the Holocaust, is a professor of history at St. Louis University. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 THE UNPREDICTABLE PAST MARTIN LUTHER AND GERMAN ANTI-SEMITISM GRAHAM NOBLE ILLUSTRATES LUTHER'S ANTI-JEWISH VIEWS AND DISTINGUISHES THEM FROM THOSE OF THE NAZIS. 'What shall we Christians do with these rejected and condemned people, the Jews?' This rhetorical question, posed in 1543 by the great Protestant reformer Martin Luther, he answered in the most blood-chilling manner. Their synagogues should be burned to the ground; their houses destroyed; their prayer books seized; their rabbis forbidden to teach on pain of death. They should be prevented from travelling in the countryside and their wealth confiscated. The young and strong should be forced to do menial work in order to prevent them 'feasting and farting ... and blasphemously boasting of their lordship over Christians'. Luther went on to call for their expulsion from Germany: 'We should toss out these rogues by the seat of their pants'. He even recommended, for a number of them, an even more terrifying fate. The authorities, he urged, must act like a good physician and cut out the gangrene by slaying three thousand, 'lest the whole people perish' Luther had once been more restrained in his writings about the Jews. As the Reformation was establishing itself in Saxony, he felt able to express pity for the poor conditions in which they were forced to live. He even invited Catholics, who grew tired of abusing him as a heretic, to revile him instead as a Jew, since Jews were related by blood to the Lord. Anyone denying that Jesus Christ was born a Jew, he wrote in 1523, was guilty of a foolish heresy. But underlying this reasonableness was a biting intolerance of the Jewish faith, which produced from Luther ever more furious demands for their conversion to his own brand of Christianity. The vicious tone and language of On the Jews and Their Lie, the 60,000-word tirade quoted above, was repeated by Luther in his Schem Ha Mphoras of the same year. Its name is derived from an anti-Semitic stone relief carved in the City Church of Wittenberg, where Luther regularly preached, which mocks the traditional lore of the Jews, their CABBALA, and depicts a rabbi lifting the leg and tail of a pig to look into its anus. Luther's very last sermon, preached in Eisleben in February 1546, three days before his death, contained an Admonition against the Jews. They were identified as the sworn enemies of the true faith who would gladly 'kill us all' if they could. For students of later German history, the resonance of all this is obvious and appalling. Indeed the Lutheran Church in America has been moved to denounce its founder's 'intemperate remarks' on the subject. But where did Luther's anti-Semitism come from, and how far did his writings, as has been suggested, encourage or lend support to National Socialist policies against the Jews 400 years later? The Anti-Semitic Context Luther's ideas did not emanate from personal experience. The evidence is that he had very little contact with Jews. They were, after all, allowed to live in very few German cities and were severely restricted in their freedom of movement. In August 1536 a decree to expel them entirely from his Saxon lands was passed by that lover of religious liberty, Frederick the Wise. (Luther abruptly rejected an appeal made to him to intervene with the Elector on behalf of Jewish merchants, who wanted exemption.) In early modern Europe, anti-Semitism was widespread. Jews were burned at the stake for a variety of imagined crimes, including the desecration of churches, infanticide and ritual castration. They were blamed for spreading plague and poisoning wells and were commonly reviled as lazy parasites. Frederick's policy in Saxony was part of a series of similar banishments, including Ferdinand's and Isabella's expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, which drove them further and further east in search of new homes. The intolerance of the medieval Christian Church had formed an unholy alliance with secular anti-Semites. Those who saw the Jews as heretics and Christ-killers found ready support amongst others who were suspicious of these curious, self-contained outsiders, whose speech and dress appeared so odd, and whose success in business was so enviable. For Luther the objection was to the Jews' faith, not to their manner of living, let alone their race. His Admonition included the hope that 'we should show Christian love towards them and pray that they convert'. For a converted Jew was a Jew no longer, and their conversion was a precondition of salvation, not only for Jews, but crucially for Christians too, if Jews were to continue to live in Christian Europe. The Second Coming of Christ, which had been prophesied in the Psalms, was at hand. God's enemies -- Turks, Catholics and Jews -- all added to the opposing forces of the Antichrist and threatened to thwart Christ's final victory. If they would not convert, they must be driven out 'like mad dogs, so that we do not partake in their abominable blasphemy ... and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them.' This goes some way to explain the vitriol and urgency of Luther's language and his sense of frustration at the imagined intransigence of the Jews. Luther and the Nazis Four centuries later, the Nazis found, in the existence of an anti-Semite at the heart of German history, a propaganda opportunity not to be missed. Writing in Mein Kampf, Hitler named Luther amongst the great historical 'protagonists' whom he most admired. These are men who 'fight for their ideas and ideals despite the fact that they receive no recognition at the hands of their contemporaries ... whose memory will be enshrined in the hearts of future generations'. To help the process, On the Jews and Their Lies was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies. In Warum Arierparagraph?, a 54-page summary and explanation of the so-called Aryan Law written in 1934 by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks, the same tract is quoted and used to justify Nazi racial legislation to reduce the influence of Jews in the professions: 'Martin Luther wrote ... "They hold us Christians captive in our land. They have seized our goods by their cursed usury, they mock and insult us because we work. They are our lords and we, and our goods, belong to them." If in the coming days the Jewish race is driven out of the non-Jewish world, it will have at least this consolation: the value of maintaining the purity of race and blood in understandable and unforgettable ways will have been made clear to them for all time.' The anti-Semitic pogrom, known as Kristallnacht (November 1938), the night on which Jews were dragged from their beds and beaten and the synagogues of Germany, in echo of Luther's words, went up in flames, was said by a Nazi Bishop, Martin Sasse of Thuringia, to have coincided happily with Luther's birthday. He praised Luther as 'the greatest anti-Semite of his time'. Yet how were the Nazis to handle his less convenient qualities: Luther as a man of the Church, and Luther as a reformer who set German against German? Another Nazi pamphlet, Rassenpolitik or Racial Policy, published around 1943, which seems to have been intended as a teaching manual for members of the SS and perhaps for use in schools, takes an interestingly critical line. It identifies the churches as enemies of the National Socialist world-view, guilty of building walls where none should exist between Germans of different faiths and tearing down natural walls 'by blessing marriages between Aryans and Jews, Negroes and Mongols'. The Reformation began as a German revolution but degenerated into a tragic battle over dogma, and 'Luther finally bound the conscience to the Jewish teachings of the Bible'. But no such qualms troubled Julius Streicher, publisher of Der Stürmer and author of some of the foulest anti-Semitic rants in the German language, who was claiming, even at the Nuremberg Trials, that everything he had said or written on the subject of the Jews was prefigured by Martin Luther. No matter that he sought, in his own terms, to save the Jews not to exterminate them, that he had no notion of the pseudo-scientific eugenics which underpinned Nazi anti-Semitism, or that he deprecated physical violence against them - Martin Luther offered in his writings a historical and intellectual justification for the Holocaust, which the Nazis took pains to exploit. Website: The Calvin College German Propaganda Archive www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gp <http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gp> a/index.htm PHOTO (BLACK & WHITE): Martin Luther holding an anti-Jewish tract. Further Reading Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners (Little, Brown and Company, 1996) H.G. Haile, Luther (Sheldon Press, 1981) James M. Kittelson, Luther the Reformer (Inter-Varsity Press, 1989) Richard Marius, Martin Luther (Harvard UP, 1999) Heiko A. Oberman, Luther: Man between God and the Devil (Yale UP, 1989) ~~~~~~~~ By Graham Noble Graham Noble teaches history at Bedales School. 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Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 WHAT THE CHURCH WAS THINKING The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism By David I. Kertzer . IN HIS important new book David I. Kertzer, professor of anthropology and history at Brown University, challenges much of the received wisdom about the Holy See's role in the evolution of modern anti-Semitism. The author of a well-documented study of the mid-19th-century kidnapping of a Jewish child by the recently beatified Pope Pius IX's authorities, he charges a series of popes with stridently opposing Jews to the extent of helping to make the Holocaust possible. Even if Kertzer overshoots the mark, as I believe he does, The Popes Against the Jews should command serious attention. For unlike the superficial study of Pope Pius XII by the British writer John Cornwell, for example, and unlike a series of polemical claims on both sides of the increasingly heated debate about the Vatican and the Holocaust, Kertzer's work rests solidly upon materials from the Holy See's own archives plus a careful reading of the Vatican's newspaper L'Osservatore romano and the Jesuit order's Civilta cattolica--each as close to an official view of the leadership of the Catholic Church as one could wish. Historians tend to distinguish between traditional Catholic anti-Judaism and modern anti-Semitism. The first was common enough in official Catholic circles before the Second Vatican Council's reforms in the early 1960s. The second, a much more dangerous political movement that gathered steam in the late 19th century, was based on race and had its ultimate expression in the murderous campaign of the Nazis during World War II. Traditional anti-Judaism is understood to have sprung from religious doctrine: Its promoters saw the Jews as a people that had rejected Christ, conspired in his execution, and sought to undermine or obstruct the teachings of the Catholic Church. Although opposing distinctions based on race and looking to the eventual conversion of Jews, traditional anti-Judaism also accused the Jewish people of promoting the elements of modernity considered harmful to the Catholic faith: Bolshevism, capitalism, atheism, rationalism, liberalism, materialism--all were at one point or another ascribed to the influence of the Jews. Modern anti-Semitism, by contrast, is viewed as a populist political mobilization linked to nationalism, racism and other hate-filled programs; it leads to persecution, demands for expulsion, violent outbursts, and finally mass murder. Virtually everyone would agree that there is some overlap between the two, but defenders of the Church have emphasized the constraints of traditional anti-Judaism. Recognizing as it did the common humanity of Jews and non-Jews, they say, the Church resisted the temptation to radicalization, the most extravagant accusations and violent assaults. Theoretically at least, in the Church's own language, efforts to restrict the influence of the Jews were always qualified by the need to act with justice and charity. Murder, certainly, was out. And during the Holocaust when Jews were being rounded up and slaughtered everywhere in Europe, the argument goes, Church leaders lent them whatever aid they could. TAKING what seems to me to be the excessively simplified version of this thesis presented in the Vatican's 1998 official statement on the Holocaust, We Remember, Kertzer showers us with evidence that at the very center of the Church opposition to Jews was hardly limited to mild-mannered religious discourse. Going beyond his 1997 book, The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara, which just focused $n the most famous instance, Kertzer shows how the 19th-century popes often approved forcible conversion in the cruelest circumstances, involving little children; the confinement of Jews in the ghettos of the papal territories in Italy; and public humiliation and restrictions on Jewish life. Even Austria's powerful Foreign Minister, Prince Metternich, felt compelled to complain to the Pope. Worse, the resurgence of trumped-up charges of ritual murder against the Jews --the harebrained claim that they killed Christians, especially small children, to obtain their blood for ritualistic purposes--was not only widely supported by the Catholic press across Europe but persistently championed by the Holy See itself. At the end of the 19th-century literally dozens of such tales surfaced across Europe--the Vatican press energetically spread their grisly, concocted charges--and a series of popes countenanced the most bloodcurdling accusations. "A new ritual murder," headlined L'Osservatore romano in November 1899. The story that followed told of Jews in Hungary allegedly slitting the throat of a seven-year- old orphan to drain his blood. "From many areas," it said, "come reports of violent disorders aimed at the co-religionists of these barbarous slaughterers of children." Subsequently, petitions from several leading figures of the English Catholic Church protested the Vatican's participation in the blood libels and asked Pope Leo XIII to repudiate them. The matter was turned over to the Holy Office of the Inquisition, where deliberations went on for many months. Its decision, endorsed by the Pope, was to dismiss the petitions. A previously unpublished note accompanying the inquisitors' ruling, found by Kertzer, declared: "ritual murder is a historical certainty...A Given all this, the Holy See cannot issue the statement that has been requested, which, while it may please a few dupes in England, would trigger widespread protests and scandal elsewhere." Leo XIII's successor, Pius X, whom some have seen as favoring more liberal attitudes toward Jews, nevertheless equivocated and lent comfort to the ritual murder slander. Responding to the desperate appeals of Jewish leaders to intervene in the 1913 trial of Mendel Beilis in Kiev, the Vatican grudgingly conceded that some popes in the distant past may have been at variance with the notion that the Jews were guilty of ritual murder, but it still refused to repudiate the allegation itself. "Most significant," says Kertzer, "by not taking this step, the Pope allowed the Catholic press, including that part of it viewed inside and outside the Church as communicating the Pope's true sentiments, to continue to tar the Jews with the ritual murder charge." Following Beilis' acquittal, Father Paolo Silva wrote in Civilta cattolica-whose articles were sent in advance to the Cardinal Secretary of State-that the Jews had bribed the Russian authorities. As for the substance of the matter, Father Silva said that to Jews blood was "a drink like milk." The year, Kertzer pointedly notes, was 1914. DESPITE the abundance of such damning\evidence, though, Kertzer's account charts, in my reading, the slow and painful emergence of more humane attitudes--often admittedly prompted by a commitment to the Jews' ultimate salvation, however much this was seen as a distant goal. Consequently, while the Vatican may not have discouraged dark ruminations on the Jewish championing of modernity, world domination or what have you, it paid at least lip service to the need to love them and pray for their conversion. The same Osservatore romano that could condemn Alfred Dreyfus, for instance, as one of "the deicide people ... [that] brings with it everywhere the pestiferous breath off reason," could also protest that the popes had always shown "charity, tolerance and love toward the Jews." The same Monsignor Achille Ratti who, in his report to the Vatican on events in Poland after World War I, could betray an adherence to the idea that the Jews were, in Kertzer's summary, "an insidious foreign force eating away at the Polish nation," could as Pope Pius XI apparently burst into tears at the idea of Fascist anti-Semitism in the fall of 1938. "Anti-Semitism," he told a group of Belgians, "is ... a hateful movement, a movement that we cannot, we Christians, take any part in." Kertzer cautions us admirably against assuming that traditional Catholic anti-Judaism was a simple matter of religious disagreement; or that Catholic religious teaching could inoculate its adherents against some of the most violent anti-Jewish fantasies; or that there were watertight boundaries between modern racist and populist rabble-rousers and the leadership of the Catholic Church; or that the leadership broke ranks with Catholic anti-Semites in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. Looking to the Holocaust, he further warns us against focusing so exclusively on the wartime Pope, Eugenio Pacelli, that we lose the important perspective to be gained by looking at his predecessors. What Kertzer does not do to my satisfaction is mobilize his evidence to elucidate our understanding of the Nazis' murder of the European Jews. Concentrating as he does on the Vatican and the Catholic press, he fails to persuade me that "'traditional' Catholic forms of dealing with the Jews became transformed into modern anti-Semitism," ultimately pointing to genocide (emphasis mine). He offers no evidence for his suggestion that the Austrians' "disproportionately large role in the Holocaust" had something to do with the fact that this was a Catholic country. (He might similarly have noted that in Italy, another Catholic country, and almost certainly more susceptible than Austria to papal influence, there was a remarkable unwillingness to join in Hitler's murderous campaign against the Jews.) In his final pages Kertzer presents without context the conversation between Pacelli's Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione, and the German Ambassador to the Holy See, Ernst von Weizsacker, as if the words that we have on paper were the full story of this exchange or a confirmation of the Vatican's antipathy toward Jews. Indeed, the closer Kertzer comes to the Holocaust, the less sure his contentions and conclusions become. This stimulating book, therefore, should be read less as a contribution to "what made the Holocaust possible," and much more as an enrichment and a deepening of our understanding of Catholic anti-Jewish thought and commitment in the 19th and 20th centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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