The Development of Devotional Movements in India

[Guest guest]

A Summarized History of Devotional Movements in India

 

http://sangha.net/hinduism.htm

 

In the post-Gupta period, a less rigid and more eclectic form of Hinduism emerged, with more dissident sects and vernacular movements. At this time, too, the great devotional movements arose. Many of the sects that emerged during the period from 800 to 1800 are still active in India today.

 

Most of the bhakti movements are said to have been founded by saints—the gurus by whom the tradition has been handed down in unbroken lineage, from guru to disciple (chela). This lineage, in addition to a written canon, is the basis for the authority of the bhakti sect. Other traditions are based on the teachings of such philosophers as Shankara and Ramanuja. Shankara was the exponent of pure monism, or nondualism (Advaita Vedanta), and of the doctrine that all that appears to be real is merely illusion. Ramanuja espoused the philosophy of qualified nondualism (Vishishta-Advaita), an attempt to reconcile belief in a godhead without attributes (nirguna) with devotion to a god with attributes (saguna), and to solve the paradox of loving a god with whom one is identical.

 

The philosophies of Shankara and Ramanuja were developed in the context of the six great classical philosophies (darshanas) of India: the Karma Mimamsa (“action investigation”); the Vedanta (“end of the Vedas”), in which tradition the work of Shankara and Ramanuja should be placed; the Sankhya system, which describes the opposition between an inert male spiritual principle (purusha) and an active female principle of matter or nature (prakriti), subdivided into the three qualities (gunas) of goodness (sattva), passion (rajas), and darkness (tamas); the Yoga system; and the highly metaphysical systems of Vaisheshika (a kind of atomic realism) and Nyaya (logic, but of an extremely theistic nature).

 

Medieval Hinduism

 

Parallel with these complex Sanskrit philosophical investigations, vernacular songs were composed, transmitted orally, and preserved locally throughout India. They were composed during the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries in Tamil and Kannada by the Alvars, Nayanars, and Virashaivas and during the 15th century by the Rajasthani poet Mira Bai, in the Braj dialect. In the 16th century in Bengal, Chaitanya founded a sect of erotic mysticism, celebrating the union of Krishna and Radha in a Tantric theology heavily influenced by Tantric Buddhism. Chaitanya believed that both Krishna and Radha were incarnate within him, and he believed that the village of Vrindaban, where Krishna grew up, had become manifest once again in Bengal. The school of the Gosvamins, who were disciples of Chaitanya, developed an elegant theology of aesthetic participation in the ritual enactment of Krishna's life.

 

These ritual dramas also developed around the village of Vrindaban itself during the 16th century, and they were celebrated by Hindi poets. The first great Hindi mystic poet was Kabir, who was said to be the child of a Muslim and was strongly influenced by Islam, particularly by Sufism. His poems challenge the canonical dogmas of both Hinduism and Islam, praising Rama and promising salvation by the chanting of the holy name of Rama. He was followed by Tulsi Das, who wrote a beloved Hindi version of the Ramayana. A contemporary of Tulsi Das was Surdas, whose poems on Krishna's life in Vrindaban formed the basis of the ras lilas, local dramatizations of myths of the childhood of Krishna, which still play an important part in the worship of Krishna in northern India.

 

19th and 20th Centuries

 

In the 19th century, important reforms took place under the auspices of Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, and the sects of the Arya Samaj and the Brahmo Samaj. These movements attempted to reconcile traditional Hinduism with the social reforms and political ideals of the day. So, too, the nationalist leaders Sri Aurobindo Ghose and Mohandas Gandhi attempted to draw from Hinduism those elements that would best serve their political and social aims. Gandhi, for example, used his own brand of ahimsa, transformed into passive resistance, to obtain reforms for the Untouchables and to remove the British from India. Similarly, Bhimrau Ramji Ambedkar revived the myth of the Brahmans who fell from their caste and the tradition that Buddhism and Hinduism were once one, in order to enable Untouchables to gain self-respect by “reconverting” to Buddhism.

 

In more recent times, numerous self-proclaimed Indian religious teachers have migrated to Europe and the United States, where they have inspired large followings. Some, such as the Hare Krishna sect founded by Bhaktivedanta, claim to base themselves on classical Hindu practices. In India, Hinduism thrives despite numerous reforms and shortcuts necessitated by the gradual modernization and urbanization of Indian life. The myths endure in the Hindi cinema, and the rituals survive not only in the temples but also in the rites of passage. Thus, Hinduism, which sustained India through centuries of foreign occupation and internal disruption, continues to serve a vital function by giving passionate meaning and supportive form to the lives of Hindus today.

 

Contributed by:

 

Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty

 

 

[Guest guest]

This author has done an interesting remark; “In the 16th century in Bengal, Chaitanya founded a sect of erotic mysticism, celebrating the union of Krishna and Radha in a Tantric theology heavily influenced by Tantric Buddhism.”

 

Nowadays the Tibetan ramification of Buddhism follows that Tantric Buddhism, also termed as Vajra-yama, or the path of the thunderbolt. It is termed in that way because it is considered a very fast path, like a thunderbolt, different than the maha-yama, or long and slow path that is not Tantric.

 

In that path one can observe several methods mentioned in Pañcaratrika texts followed by Gaudiyas, such as to repeat a mantra in beads, to worship an idol, to offer incense and other gifts to the Deity, to worship sacred trees, to make pilgrimages, to dress like a practitioner, to offer dandavats to the deity, to make the parikrama around the deity, and so on.

 

These Buddhists from vajra-yama also have a disciplic succession, and they even remount it as far as 1,000 years. They also only follows their own scriptures as authoritative texts.

 

Their Buddha also may have a female counterpart who is considered as very merciful, and is the one who helps the supplicant to attain his aim. In China she is worshiped as a 1,000 arms goddess with a eye in each arm just to see every kind of human miseries.

 

Caitanya’s path of devotion is also considered as a fast path to attain its aim.

 

 

[jijaji]

How do the buddhist carya-padas fit into this scenario...?

 

They had in them the beginnings of bengali kirtan some sources say...

 

sitting in circle with kartals and singing etc...

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-26-2001).]

[jijaji]

In 1907 an Indian scholar, Haraprashad Sastri, working in the Royal Archive in Nepal discovered a palm-leaf manuscript of 'Caryagiti' mystic poems by Bengali Buddhist poets. The poems, also collectively known as the 'Caryapada' were published by him in 1916. Sastri's discovery brought to light the oldest specimens not only of Bengali poetry but also of Indo-Aryan literature. According to Dr. Mohammad Shahidullah the discovery of the Cayagiti means that Bengali literature can be dates as far back as the seventh century. It is probable that the language had developed a hundred years before this.

 

These poem-songs in old Bengali, designed to be sung with a particular rage, constitute an integral part of the heritage of Bangladesh and the basis of a long established tradition of poetry which has survived to the present day. These verse by Buddhist mystic poets are not only beautifully written and add greatly to Bengali literary traditions but they also constitute an invaluable source for the study of Bengali society and the Buddhist religion between the seventh and twelfth centuries. They are a particularly important discovery, since there are very few historical documents of the period in existence. Although the siddhacaryas, the writers of the Caryagiti dealt primarily with certain deeper metaphysical problems of tantric Buddhism, they also described their world.

 

They give us a vivid account of the life and occupations of the common people, their work, events of birth, marriage and death, religious activities, dress and ornaments, food and utensils, and music and musical instruments. There is also a beautiful description of the riverine and green eastern part of Bengal which is Bangladesh today. The poems describe rivers, canals, ponds, muddy shores, various types of boats and their different parts, ferrying, and rowing; all these were used by the siddhacaryas as spiritual symbols.

 

The Bengali siddhas, Buddhist mystics, used poetry as a vehicle for teaching one of the most difficult and mystic religious, that known as the shahajia mystic school of Buddhism. Through the use of the mother tongue of the common people, the mystic poets conveyed serious religious philosophies. The poems are a part of the cultural and religious heritage of Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Bhutan and Tibet. Although these songs are still ritually sung in Nepal and Bhutan very little research has been carried out on the subject. They deserve to be known outside the region.

 

According to Dr. Muhammad Shahidullah, the Caryagiti as a literary genre are the origin of both the later Vaisnavaite songs, according to Dr. Shahidullah, are:

 

They are short rhymed poems intended for singing,

 

1 The name of the composer appears in the last verse,

 

3 They are near erotic in theme

 

The Caryagiti influenced Gita-govinda, a famous Sanskrit work of the Bengali poet Jayadeva and Vaisnava Padabali, and much later, Rabindranath Tagore and the Baul songs of Bangladesh; Gita-govinda is a celebration of love between Krishna, the god of love and Radha. Divine love is humanized and the poems present erotic mysticism. Gita-govinda is written in a Kavya form, divided into formal cantos, and includes lyric drama, pastoral, an opera, a melodrama and a refined Yatra or play. The poems do not follow the Sanskrit tradition but bear a close resemblance to the spirit and style of the Caryagiti and old Bengali poetry. The musical padabalis, although composed in Sanskrit, actually follow the Bengali manner of expression and use rhymed and melodious moraic metres, uncommon in Sanskrit poems. Tagore was greatly influenced by the Baul songs during his stay in East Bengal, as he frequently mentions in his writing. In Bangladesh the Shahajia Baul songs continue the tradition today.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-26-2001).]

[talasiga]

<u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

 

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

.

 

"In the 16th century in Bengal, Chaitanya founded a sect of erotic mysticism, celebrating the union of Krishna and Radha in a Tantric theology heavily influenced by Tantric Buddhism."............

Contributed by:

Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty

 

 

compare with:-

 

"The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

 

Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

Kishangarh Painting

page 5

Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

Hague Building

9 Sprott Road

Ballard Estate

Bombay 400 038

 

(NB no ISBN appears in the edition that I have)

 

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talasiga@hotmail.com

[talasiga]

<u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

 

Originally posted by talasiga:

"The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

 

Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

Kishangarh Painting

page 5

Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

Hague Building

9 Sprott Road

Ballard Estate

Bombay 400 038

 

(NB no ISBN appears in the edition that I have)

 

 

Earlier statements from this same book:-

 

"Another contribution which Islam made to the Hindu religious thought was through Sufism. In fact there are many common ideas in the systems of the Sufis, the Greek Neo-Pythagoreans and the Hindu Vedantists. The Sufis also believed in union with God through love. The first conspicuous exponent of Sufism was the woman saint, Rabia of Basra (ob. 801). The subsequent development of Sufism took place in Iran, a country with a population, Aryan by race, and artistic by nature."

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-26-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

Jijaji: They had in them the beginnings of bengali kirtan some sources say...

 

Satyaraj: Well, yesterday by chance I was watching a very curious TV’s documentary on Tibet and Buddhist China. It was made by a Brazilian TV-net, and we can consider that it may show an unbiased opinion on religion in general, as people in general over here is very opened to that subject matter. Most are always very interested in all sort of Eastern religions.

 

Buddhist monasteries and its idols were showed, Lamas, devotees and people in general were interviewed. I personally felt myself in India in Gaudiya-matha. An old Lama made me remember Narayana Maharaja and his preaching on the excellence of his path, the absolutely of his truth, the many who had attained it before, how easy is the whole process, kartals, devotional songs, dandavats, and so on.

 

Tibet was described as a devotional country that not even the Chinese communism could ever change. Like Bengalis, Tibetans are very bounded to their religious traditions and nothing can remove them from that platform.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Talasigaji: "The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

Satyaraj: For certain those Sufi’s techniques aren’t from the fundamentalist Islam. These are Tantric techniques found in many Pañcaratras. As obviously Tantra is oldest than Islam and Sufis, we should consider that in fact it was the Tantra who has influenced Islam and not otherwise.

 

Actually Tantra is much older than Buddhism itself. Many other traditions had incorporated Tantra in their religions practices, not only Buddhists, Sufis, Gaudiya-vaisnavas, but even Christians, many African religions, Egyptians, Incas from South America, and so on.

 

Some scholars state that Tantra is even oldest than Vedas.

 

The point discussed by many of the schools of thought, however, is not the presence or the absence of Tantra in those traditions, but actually the meaning of the vidya given by Tantra, or Pañcaratrika-vidya.

 

Is that vidya or God-knowledge the same sort of vidya prescribed by Vedanta? Or that is a kind of a partial vydia, meant for some stages of sanatana-dharma evolution such as the religious stage?

 

[talasiga]

<u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

 

Originally posted by talasiga:

"The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

 

Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa,

Kishangarh Painting

page 5

Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd

Hague Building

9 Sprott Road

Ballard Estate

Bombay 400 038

Satyaraj: For certain those Sufi’s techniques aren’t from the fundamentalist Islam.

Talasiga: Yes, religious fundamentalism is generally at odds with the mystic sensibility and my understanding is that <u>fundamentalist</u> Muslims are not much enamoured with Sufism.

 

Satyaraj: These are Tantric techniques found in many Pañcaratras.

Talasiga: You must be using "tantra" in a broad sense. No fault in this but it must be acknowledged that Tantra is therefore not the exclusive domain of the Pañcaratras (BTW, how do you do these diacritical marks/accents?)

Lama Anagarika Govinda has discussed the differences between the Buddhist Tant[r]ism and the Hindu Tantrism. If I recall correctly, he proposes that the latter is a perversion of the earlier Buddhist Tantrism.

 

Satyaraj: As obviously Tantra is oldest than Islam and Sufis, we should consider that in fact it was the Tantra who has influenced Islam and not otherwise.

Talasiga: <u>Historically</u>, Tantra must be accepted as older than Islam and Sufism. Also, many regard Sufism as being older than Islam (although not under the name "Sufism" which is a relatively modern term). Some Zoroastrians (followers of the ancient pre-Islamic Persian religion of Ahura Mazda) claim Sufism is sourced in their ancient Aryan religion (I use "Aryan" here as a linguistic reference to mean a religion whose scriptural sources are in an Indo-European language - the Avesta is in ancient Persian which is a sister to Sanskrit).

However an examination of <u>influences</u> can be made in different contexts and the PRECEDENCE of a particular influence may vary from context to context.

I am happy to discuss this further if you wish to abseil with me ......

 

 

edited to correct typo. error

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-30-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Talasiga: You must be using "tantra" in a broad sense. No fault in this but it must be acknowledged that Tantra is therefore not the exclusive domain of the Pañcaratras (BTW, how do you do these diacritical marks/accents?)

Satyaraj: Yes, I am employing ‘Tantra’ in a broad sense, mainly as a process. For certain Pañcaratras defend the Tantric practices to attain vidya, and that is why they are included into Tantric division. (BTW the diacritics are made by my key-board that is programmed to write in Portuguese - ã, õ, á, à, é, í, ñ, â, etc ).

 

Talasiga: However an examination of influences can be made in different contexts and the PRECEDENCE of a particular influence may vary from context to context.

Satyaraj: Yes, I fully agree with you in that point, as different contexts may have precedence of different influences. It is very difficult to establish what tradition is oldest: Vedic or Tantric.

 

Anyway, my interest in Pañcaratrika-vidya is due Ramananda-samvada’s thesis. As you may known this thesis is presented as Caitanya’s thesis on jiva’s natural evolution within sanatana-dharma. He has pointed out 5 different stages of evolution until suddha-bhakti, each stage can be compared to a Pañcaratrika night (pañca = five; ratra = night), and the description of these stages and how to surpass each of these stages are allegorical described in Narada-Pañcaratras.

 

Krsnadas’ theology is based in that viewpoint.

Some other schools of thought, however, strongly refute Pañcaratrika-vidya by considering it as mere superstition. That is the case of Vallabha-sampradaya, for example, who only has accepted Vedanta-vidya.

 

Other schools, such as Ramanuja’s, do accept part of Pañcaratrika-vidya, but not ‘in toto’, specially most of the points concerning the realization of ista-deva by this method.

 

Talasiga: Lama Anagarika Govinda has discussed the differences between the Buddhist Tantism and the Hindu Tantrism. If I recall correctly, he proposes that the latter is a perversion of the earlier Buddhist Tantrism

 

Satyaraj: I’d heard from some of my Gaudiya teachers that Buddhists in general follow the Gautama-tantra that is included into Narada-Pañcaratra. That’s why many of the Buddhist’s practices are very similar to Gaudiyas’.

 

For certain the NP’s text state that that Pañcaratra is the oldest, and it was previously spoken by Narada during a pralaya (where obviously all the other sages were inactive, including Gautama). But I take this with a pith of salt.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 11-29-2001).]

[shvu]

 

BTW, how do you do these diacritical marks/accents?)

Use ALT + keys on the numeric pad. For example,

 

é - ALT + 130

â - ALT + 131

 

The characters may be mapped to different keys on your keyboard, but they will still be somewhere around 130.

 

Cheers

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Talasiga: You must be using "tantra" in a broad sense. .....................................................

Satyaraj: Yes, I am employing ‘Tantra’ in a broad sense, mainly as a process. ........................................

A process oriented usage. This is good.

Tantra implies process just as Vedanta implies the absolute goal.

All cultures comprehend some aspect of process orientation

towards divinity or, at least, supra-mundane consciousness.

Ultimately these processes are quenched by a trancendent divinity

where being is devoid of context (ie. sat-chid-ananda) or,

an immanent divinity where the plenitude of being is contextual

(ie. sat-chid-ananda-vigraha).

 

In many situations the instruments of process are discarded or,

better still: subrated, once the goal is reached.

(eg taking medecines in illnes. Once the illness is overcome

the medecines are phased out)

 

However, in other situations the substance of the process

is non-different to the goal, although there will be difference of magnitude.

For instance, one begins with a small grape vine to end up

with a large grape vine. The small vine is not discarded

to obtain the large grape vine but it is maintained under

certain conditions of nurture and itself transforms

to attain its fully realised state.

 

Now, in relation to divine immanence, it is possible to speak

of a Vedantic Tantra - one whose process, methods and instruments,

are of such a nature that, after divine realisation,

they continue to be utilised as the paraphernalia of the perennial divine life.

 

This point is predicated on the understanding that immanent divinity (Saguna-Brahman) is by definition, a spiritual life in the context of name and form, as contrasted with trancendent divinity (Nirguna-Brahman) which is an abstract divinity without relationship and therefore devoid of context.

 

 

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------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-30-2001).]

[talasiga]

Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India

 

Talasiga: Lama Anagarika Govinda has discussed the differences between the Buddhist Tant[r]ism and the Hindu Tantrism. If I recall correctly, he proposes that the latter is a perversion of the earlier Buddhist Tantrism

 

Satyaraj: I’d heard from some of my Gaudiya teachers that Buddhists in general follow the Gautama-tantra that is included into Narada-Pañcaratra. That’s why many of the Buddhist’s practices are very similar to Gaudiyas’.

 

 

From page 94 et seq of Lama Anagarika Govinda's Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism Rider & Company, London (there is no ISBN in my 1967 impression of this book):-

 

"The influence of Tantric Buddhism upon Hinduism was so profound, that up to the present day, the majority of Western scholars labour under the impression that Tantrism is a hinduistic creation which was taken over by later more or less decadent Buddhist Schools.

..........................

"To declare Buddhist Tantrism as an off-shoot of Shivaism is only possible for those who have no first-hand knowledge of Tantric literature. A comparison of Hindu Tantras with those of Buddhism (which are mostly in Tibetan and which therefore have long remained unnoticed by Indologists) not only shows an astonishing divergence of methods and aims, in spite of external similarities, but proves the spiritual and historical priority and originality of the Buddhist Tantras.

 

"[shankara-Achaarya], the great Hindu philosopher......made use of the ideas of [Naagaarjuna] and his followers to such an extent that orthodox Hindus suspected him of being a secret devotee of Buddhism. In a similar way the Hindu Tantras, too, took over the methods and principles of Buddhist Tantrism to their own purposes (just as the Buddhists had adapted the age-old principles and techniques of yoga to their own systems of meditation). This view is not only held by Tibetan tradition and confirmed by a study of its literature, but has been verified also by Indian scholars after a critical investigation of the earlier texts of Tantric Buddhism and their historical and ideological relationship to the Hindu Tantras.

 

"Thus Benoytosh Bhattacharyya in his Introduction to Buddhist Esoterism has come to the conclusion that 'it is possible to declare, without fear of contradiction, that the Buddhists were the first to introduce the Tantras into their religion, and that the Hindus borrowed them from the Buddhists in later times, and that it is idle to say that later Buddhism was an outcome of [shivaism]' (p.147).

...................................................................

"To judge Buddhist Tantric teachings and symbols from the standpoint of Hindu Tantras, and especially from the principles of [shaktism] is not only inadequate but thoroughly misleading, because both systems start from entirely different premisses. As little as we can declare Buddhism to be identical with Brahmanism, because both make use of Yoga methods and of similar technical and philosophical terms, as little is it permissible to interpret the Buddhist Tantras in the light of Hindu Tantras and vice versa.

...............................

 

"It is impossible to understand any religious movement, unless we approach it in a spirit of humility and reverence, which is the hall-mark of all great scholars and pioneers of learning. We therefore have to see the various forms of expression in their genetic connexions and against the spiritual background from which they developed in their particular system, before we start comparing them with similar features in other systems. In fact the very things which appear similar on the surface are very often just those in which the systems differ most fundamentally. The same step that leads upwards in one connexion may well lead downwards in another one. Therefore, philological derivations and iconographical comparisons, valuable though they may be in other respects, are not adequate here."

 

(text emboldened by Talasiga)

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-30-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Talasigaji: However, in other situations the substance of the process is non-different to the goal, although there will be difference of magnitude.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, the supporters of the Vedic viewpoint state that Hari is Himself the sacrifice, as stated in many sruti texts. So, sacrifices are non-different than the goal, and should be always performed.

 

The supporters of the Pañcaratric viewpoint state that nama is non-different than Hari Himself and it is obviously non-different than the goal, so, nama should be always chanted.

 

There are those who consider that nama-japa is the greatest sacrifice and therefore they support a mixed method.

But Badarayana Rsi is of the opinion that sacrifices and other religious methods should be abandoned as soon as jñana is present. (Vedanta-sutra 3.4.13) He ponders many other opinions, but that one should be the prevalent.

 

No one steps a stair with the only perspective of to step it; in other words the aim is different than the stair. So, the different stages within sanatana-dharma progress should be considered as only a stair, and not as aims by themselves. The real aim is beyond any step.

 

[Guest guest]

To judge Buddhist Tantric teachings and symbols from the standpoint of Hindu Tantras, and especially from the principles of [shaktism] is not only inadequate but thoroughly misleading, because both systems start from entirely different premisses.

 

Yes, that is correct. That enhances the thesis that Tantra is not the aim itself, rather the stair to reach the aim. The premises considered while starting the process of stepping, as well as at the end of the stair Buddhists may have a vision that is completely different than Gaudiyas’ in spite of the similarity of their Tantra.

 

[Guest guest]

"It is impossible to understand any religious movement, unless we approach it in a spirit of humility and reverence, which is the hall-mark of all great scholars and pioneers of learning.

 

Yes, religious movements, theologies, philosophies, cosmologies, and so on are to be taken as different moods to glorify Hari. Sanatana-dharma do agree with dissension, dissension generates diversity and vice-versa. It is Hari Himself the propeller and the prompter of such diversity and dissension, as He enjoys to be glorified by His lovers in different ways and moods.

 

Rather than a destructive criticism, one should understand those discussions as a subtle kind of worship made by the intelligence. Hari Himself praises this method (Gita 18.70).

 

 

[talasiga]

Yes,

just imagine

how could the best of friends

play chess unless they sit at opposite ends ?

One must be black the other white

Another game vice versa

Black and white,

white and black

 

Yet just see the beautiful colours between them !

 

[talasiga]

Talasiga: However, in other situations the substance of the process is non-different to the goal, although there will be difference of magnitude.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, the supporters of the Vedic viewpoint state that Hari is Himself the sacrifice, as stated in many sruti texts. So, sacrifices are non-different than the goal, and should be always performed.

 

The supporters of the Pañcaratric viewpoint state that nama is non-different than Hari Himself and it is obviously non-different than the goal, so, nama should be always chanted.

 

There are those who consider that nama-japa is the greatest sacrifice and therefore they support a mixed method.

But Badarayana Rsi is of the opinion that sacrifices and other religious methods should be abandoned as soon as jñana is present. (Vedanta-sutra 3.4.13) He ponders many other opinions, but that one should be the prevalent.

 

No one steps a stair with the only perspective of to step it; in other words the aim is different than the stair. So, the different stages within sanatana-dharma progress should be considered as only a stair, and not as aims by themselves. The real aim is beyond any step.

 

Talasiga: Yes, in the case of allopathic medicine being taken to cure an illness, the medicine is phased out or discarded once health is achieved. One does not continue to take antibiotics after an infection is overcome and the prescribed course is completed.

 

However, in the case of a natural therapy, such as the Grape Diet cure for a serious illness, one may eat grapes and green leaves for some time and, in many cases, effect a cure. Now, in such a situation there is no harm or necessity for the healthy person to discard eating grapes when good health is reached. In fact the very food that was once taken remedially now becomes the food of healthy celebration.

 

Yes, there are some sadhikas who practice all sorts of strange and severe austerities to attract the attention of the Divine. Do you think that, if and when they reach God, they will continue to tie a 20 kg weight to their penis in His presence ? Or surround themselves with a ritualistic circle of fire in the very diwan that Sudama is sitting down and offering Krishna his village rice ?

Of course these practices will be discarded as no longer relevant.

 

In contrast, chanting the Holy Names may be a ritualistic process but surely when the Divine is realised the content of that process (the Holy Names) become a celebration of the Presence. Cannot you even, intellectually, conceive and acknowledge this ? Cannot you see that it is the ritualistic context that is subrated by reaching the goal but the content of that former process then continues in the context of Beatitude ?

 

Just imagine that you have invited a long-lost favourite friend to dinner.

You have lit a candle in anticipation of his or her arrival. When the friend does arrive, will you put the candle out ?

Or will that candle now serve to illuminate your discourse ?

 

[Guest guest]

Talasigaji: In contrast, chanting the Holy Names may be a ritualistic process but surely when the Divine is realised the content of that process (the Holy Names) become a celebration of the Presence. Cannot you even, intellectually, conceive and acknowledge this ? Cannot you see that it is the ritualistic context that is subrated by reaching the goal but the content of that former process then continues in the context of Beatitude ?

 

Satyaraj: Yes, some darsanas do stress that the holy names are the means as well as the end itself. So, they defend the Tantra as the mean and as the end itself. The same propounders, however, also stress that there are at least six different stages in the chanting progress until the aim.

 

But these explanations are also very subtle. To reach the stage of bhava, an intermediate stage between the ritualistic and neophyte stage and prema, they prescribe sambhanda-jñana as essential. In other words, scriptures should be read and heard from a right source to attain this stage.

 

Therefore one may ask: “What is the real cause of this sambhanda-jñana? Is it nama or is it the study of sastra?”

 

Experts in harinama do stress that nama itself is not the cause of this jñana, and therefore it should be the study of sastras, as the sruti states (sastrayonitvat - Vedanta-sutra 1.1.3).

 

For certain at the end of the process nama is not ritualistic neither a limb of jñana. It is suddha-nama, and cannot be described by us. Remember that gopis and other of Hari’s partners aren’t chanting in their beads all day long. Nor they are studying any sastra.

 

For certain one cannot take as absolute the assertive that nama evolves to suddha-nama by its own account after some practices. This never happens. Therefore one may argue if the Tantra is working, or if it is only a camouflage to other efficient process.

 

 

[talasiga]

<u>Topic: The Development of Devotional Movements in India </u>

 

Originally posted by talasiga:

"The Sufi techniques of inducing ecstasy, such as dancing, music, repetition of the name of God, and the recital of love poems were adopted by Chaitanya (1486-1533), the prophet of Vaishnavism in Bengal."

 

- Mohinder Singh Randhawa & Doris Schreier Randhawa

 

..........

..........

Satyaraj: Yes, some darsanas do stress that the holy names are the means as well as the end itself. So, they defend the Tantra as the mean and as the end itself. The same propounders, however, also stress that there are at least six different stages in the chanting progress until the aim.

 

But these explanations are also very subtle. To reach the stage of bhava, an intermediate stage between the ritualistic and neophyte stage and prema, they prescribe sambhanda-jñana as essential. In other words, scriptures should be read and heard from a right source to attain this stage.

 

Therefore one may ask: “What is the real cause of this sambhanda-jñana? Is it nama or is it the study of sastra?”

 

talasiga: These stages must only be incidental and not causative.

For instance, in the case of a flooded river with a 3 metre peak rise in the water level, the 1 metre and the 2 metre water levels are only incidental. If one were to say that the 3 metre flood was caused by the 2 metre flood which in turn was caused by the 1 metre flood, such a mistaken appraisal of causation could proceed ad infinitum.

(i.e. to smaller and smaller causative measurements like 0.1 of a metre, 0.01, 0.001, 0.0001, 0.00001, 0.000001, 0.0000001, etc)!

____________________________

 

Similarly, the impetus for change within Hinduism purportedly due to the developing movement of Islam in the Indian sub-continent, may also be appraised as incidental and not causative.

 

We, of course, know that Bhakti Yoga existed thousands of years before Prophet Mohammed was born. However it was Lord Chaitanya (about eight centuries after Mohammed) who broke the barriers and promoted the first Bhakti movement that appealed to, encouraged and empowered <u>participation regardless of caste, race and creed</u> in a Hindu society bound on all sides by proscriptions and prescriptions based on caste, race and creed.

 

In the context of Medieval India, such a catholic movement may easily be recognised as analogous to the the operative terrain of Islam at that time and her elder sister, Christianity.

 

So, was the Islam which was a vehicle for the minority mystic movement of Sufism, substantially causative of the catholic Bhakti (Chaitanyaite) movement or simply incidental ?

Or, perhaps, it is coincidental: wherever there exists a religious culture, at some point it will blossom into the flower of mystic adoration in the Divine Life (Essenes amonst the Jews, the Sufis in Islam, the Ecstatic Ones of Christianity and Hinduism).

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 12-04-2001).]