Can Krsna experience physical pain?

[leyh]

A Christian on an Interfaith forum at http://forum.foolmoon.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=28&DaysPrune=1000 asked me whether Krsna has the ability to experience physical pain.The following is part of my reply:

 

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In the Invocation to Sri Isopanisad, one of the scriptures in the Vedic canon, it is stated:

 

“The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.” (Sri Isopanisad, Invocation)

 

In his purport to this invocation, His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada explains:

 

“The Complete Whole must contain everything both within and beyond our experience; otherwise He cannot be complete.” (Sri Isopanisad, Purport to Invocation)

 

If God is the Complete Whole, there is no reason why the knowledge of and the ability to experience any kind of pain, mental or physical cannot be found in Him. The Vedic conclusion is that Krsna is God and because He is the Complete Whole,everything both within and beyond our experience (including the experience of any kind of pain) is contained within Him. Vedic philosophy defines God as being completely free and independent.In other words, He is absolute (the word “absolute” comes from the Latin absolvere, which means “to make free”)and as such, He is never conditioned by pain although He is capable of voluntarily experiencing it.

 

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Although I am not an authority on Krsna Consciousness and Vedic philosophy,I endeavoured to answer to the best of my ability.Was my answer in accordance with Vedic philsophy? Can any devotee comment?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 12-05-2001).]

[talasiga]

Originally posted by leyh:

Was my answer in accordance with Vedic philsophy?

The Vedic answer is self luminous

and needs no approbation .

 

 

[bhaktashab]

Sounded pretty good to me.

 

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shab.

[JRdd]

Wonderful answer! With your dual-dynamic qualities of humbleness and deep philosophical understanding, all held within the temple of your devotion to Srila Prabhupada, you are surely getting Krsna's attention.

 

Krsna's Feet are so soft and tender that even the flower petals the gopis strew on the forest floor hurt Them. (Is this how it goes, folks? Does anyone have the exact quote to hand?)

 

ys, JR

[leyh]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Wonderful answer! With your dual-dynamic qualities of humbleness and deep philosophical understanding, all held within the temple of your devotion to Srila Prabhupada, you are surely getting Krsna's attention.

 

Krsna's Feet are so soft and tender that even the flower petals the gopis strew on the forest floor hurt Them. (Is this how it goes, folks? Does anyone have the exact quote to hand?)

 

ys, JR

JRdd:

I really appreciate your encouraging words,but please don't shower me with such profound praises...I am neither humble nor do I have deep philosophical understanding...If I have demonstrated any understanding of Krsna Consciousness,then it can only be credited to the mercy of Srila Prabhupada.I hope that Krsna will someday give me the humility to always think of myself as the person setting up the microphone for Srila Prabhupada to preach.All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 12-07-2001).]

[gHari]

Leyh, I too liked the answer. It reminded me of the omnipotence paradox posed to Srila Prabhupada about whether Krsna could make a rock that he could not lift. He said yes, He would make a rock that He could not lift. And then He would lift it.

 

Acintya covers a lot too. But the real answer here is that the question is a waste of time; the flickering mind seeking attention by throwing red herring word puzzles in our path. The real answer is the one you have, complemented gently with this revelation and the solution to quieting such a troublesome mind. I can almost hear Prabhupada now: a little down to basics perspective and motivation, concluding in "Chant Hare Krsna". He would so cleverly work the conversation around until he was giving the medicine the audience really needed.

 

The expert doctor treats the cause as well as the symptom. "My, you have a big bad question on your knee there. Lets first fix it and then figure out how it got there, so maybe we can prevent more from slowing you down in the future".

 

I have to admit though, it is not readily apparent to me how to eloquently transition from treating the symptom, to treating the cause in this case. They are motivated to take the symptom medicine. Somehow we have to create an interest in the cause medicine.

 

Well, I seem to be flickering in and out of consciousness here, so I can only hope my comments made some sort of sense.

 

gHari

 

Ooops, still awake. Sort of. I really like the way you gave them all sorts of good info while providing your answer. This will give their mind something meaningful to amuse itself with for a while.

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 12-07-2001).]

[Tarun]

No.

[leyh]

Originally posted by gHari:

Leyh, I too liked the answer. It reminded me of the omnipotence paradox posed to Srila Prabhupada about whether Krsna could make a rock that he could not lift. He said yes, He would make a rock that He could not lift. And then He would lift it.

 

Acintya covers a lot too. But the real answer here is that the question is a waste of time; the flickering mind seeking attention by throwing red herring word puzzles in our path. The real answer is the one you have, complemented gently with this revelation and the solution to quieting such a troublesome mind. I can almost hear Prabhupada now: a little down to basics perspective and motivation, concluding in "Chant Hare Krsna". He would so cleverly work the conversation around until he was giving the medicine the audience really needed.

 

The expert doctor treats the cause as well as the symptom. "My, you have a big bad question on your knee there. Lets first fix it and then figure out how it got there, so maybe we can prevent more from slowing you down in the future".

 

I have to admit though, it is not readily apparent to me how to eloquently transition from treating the symptom, to treating the cause in this case. They are motivated to take the symptom medicine. Somehow we have to create an interest in the cause medicine.

 

Well, I seem to be flickering in and out of consciousness here, so I can only hope my comments made some sort of sense.

 

gHari

 

Ooops, still awake. Sort of. I really like the way you gave them all sorts of good info while providing your answer. This will give their mind something meaningful to amuse itself with for a while.

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 12-07-2001).]

gHari:

 

Thank you for your encouragement.Do you know the circumstances in which the omnipotence paradox about whether Krsna could make a rock that he could not lift wasposed to Srila Prabhupada? Also,I think his answer was beautiful,even though I'm still trying to understand it.I would be really grateful if you or any other devotee could enlighten me.Haribol!

[ggohil]

This is the way I understand it.

 

Sri Krsna not only feels the pain but he is the very the source of it. Even though he is the source of all the pain and sufferings, only we through our own actions bring all the suffering onto ourselves.

 

Since he is the source of “All”, no one better then he understands all the pain and sufferings. The difference is, that we suffer due to our Karmas, while he, whose actions are free from all reactions has no reason to suffer.

 

So I guess the answer to the question would be, Yes, he does feel the pain, he feels "OUR" pain. Since he understands the essence of pain, he does not suffer from it. He is always “Blissful”

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 12-18-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 12-18-2001).]

[krsnaraja]

krsna is inconceivable. in other words, he`s beyond pain and pleasure as simple as this and that.

[Tarun]

No, no,no! KRSNa explains in GItA why answer is no.

You have 700 zlokas to choose from.

Take an educated zAstra-caxu guess.

[Tarun]

That's something like, remotely similar to asking:

does Bushy feel pain as US troops drop bombs on innocent Afghan civilians?

Obviously not.

Bushbind will feel the pain later on, longterm, in triplicate for each & every transgression.

Meanwhile, keep in step, cheer him on.

[Avinash]

I wanted to revive this thread. What do the members of this forum feel about this topic? Krsna has control over His deluding potency. So, can He Himself be affected by this potency? If yes, then how can He be considered the master of maya. If no, then does it mean that He never feels pain but just pretends to feel?

[Avinash]

Was Rama's sadness genuine when Sita was kidnapped? Was Krsna's fear genuine when Yashoda ran after Him when He was a child in order to punish Him?

[radharani]

he probably just absorbed fear from somewhere else, maybe an animal that was about to be killed, and felt fear.

[xxvvii]

<FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Arial">Veiled by My divine Maya, I am not known by all. Therefore, the ignorant one does not know Me as the unborn and eternal Brahman. (7.25)

 

I know, O Arjuna, the beings of the past, of the present, and those of the future, but no one really knows Me. (7.26)

 

All beings in this world are in utter ignorance due to the delusion of dualities born of likes and dislikes, O Arjuna. (7.27)

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This being the case; the ignorant person who considers oneself as the sole agent due to imperfect understanding does not understand. (18.16)

 

The one who is free from the notion of doership and whose wisdom is not befouled; even after slaying these people, neither slays nor is bound (by the act of killing). (18.17)

*******

 

No one likes pain & death. But do you like this world full of 2m2 - brightness & darkness, desire & fear, love & hatred, peace & war? It's an interface of brightness & darkness, & only a little better than hell. Do you think you can "stop the cycle of death" by non-viol. only?

</FONT>

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by Avinash:

I wanted to revive this thread. What do the members of this forum feel about this topic? Krsna has control over His deluding potency. So, can He Himself be affected by this potency? If yes, then how can He be considered the master of maya. If no, then does it mean that He never feels pain but just pretends to feel?

I would go with Krishna never being affected by the deluding potency, that Rama's sadness when Sita was kidnapped was more genuine and deeply emotional than the most caring human husband could feel under similar circumstances. As for Krishna being afraid of Mother Yasoda, I think He was just pretending.

 

 

 

[theist]

Originally posted by Tarun:

No, no,no! KRSNa explains in GItA why answer is no.

You have 700 zlokas to choose from.

Take an educated zAstra-caxu guess.

Tarunji,

Is this the sloka you were thinking of?I have always wondered how the Supersoul Who is supposed to be neutral could feel tortured.

Those who unerso sever austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride and egoism, who are impelled by lust and attachment, who are foolish and who torture the material elements of the body as well as the Supersoul dwelling within,are to be known as demons. Bg 17.5-6

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Krishna experiences pain through us. From His perspective there is nothing but Him, ourselves being just another aspect of Him. For the whole, the part is also itself.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-27-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Talasiga:

 

How did you become a Junior member? Weren't you a member before you went on hibernation? Reincarnation?

[Avinash]

The Talasiga's post that you are referring to was posted on way back on 25 Dec., 2001.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by theist:

who torture the material elements of the body as well as the Supersoul dwelling within,are to be known as demons.

 

This is difficult to understand. Why the Lord lets us go free and then suffers with us for billions of years. And through all these remains completely aloof. When all leave us, He alone goes with us.

 

[theist]

Originally posted by jndas:

Krishna experiences pain through us. From His perspective there is nothing but Him, ourselves being just another aspect of Him. For the whole, the part is also itself.

 

The thing is pain and pleasure are relative conceptions.I know He is aware of our experience of the world,yet it seems He must remain somehow uneffected.Hmmm...?

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Yet he remains affected as us. We are vibhinnamsha expansions of God.

 

Krishna is everything, including the Jivas. Yet the parts are never the whole.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-28-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by jndas:

Yet he remains affected as us. We are vibhinnamsha expansions of God.

 

Krishna is everything, including the Jivas. Yet the parts are never the whole.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-28-2002).]

Agreed.Yet Bg 17.5-6 states the Supersoul is tortured.It doesn't say the jiva is being tortured.

 

In one sense He is everything yet He is independent.It sounds like the independent aspect of Krsna as Supersoul is being tortured.Sorry I still don't get it.