Raguraman Posted January 7, 2002 Report Share Posted January 7, 2002 Hare Krishna, I do not know why my post got deleted. I did not browse for a few days. This is my question again. Can anyone translate and interpret the following verses. 1. Valmiki Ramayana - 1:13:24-33 2. Satapatha Brahmana - 13:5:2:1-10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 7, 2002 Report Share Posted January 7, 2002 We had just changed servers a couple days ago. Some of the messages posted after the backup was made were lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted January 7, 2002 Report Share Posted January 7, 2002 Can you post the Sanskrit verses here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 8, 2002 Report Share Posted January 8, 2002 Those verse from Ramayana are just Vasishtha given instructions to a messenger as to which kings he should invite to the Ashvamedha yajna. It is basically a long list of kings and which country they ruled. Nothing else. I assume your question revolves around some aspect of the Ashvamedha yajna, perhaps some criticism found on non-hindu sites. If thats the case, these verses offer nothing about the sacrifice. If you really want me to type out the translation I will, but I didn't see anything meaningfull in it outher than a list of names of kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted January 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2002 Hare Krishna, I do not know Sanskrit. I referred to some books(al of them have only translations and no sanskrit verses). Here are some of them. ------------ Title:The Ramayana of Valmiki:AN Epic of ancient India Volume I: BalaKanda Translated by: Robert P. Goldman, Sally J. Sutherland Princeton University Press:Princeton New Jersey Kanda 1(Balakanda), Sarga 13, Verses 24-33 24. The prescribed victims- snakes, birds, the horse, and aquatic animals- were bound at the place of immolation; each was dedicated to a specific divinity as is set forth in the ritual texts. 25. The priests then bound them all to the posts in the manner set forth in the ritual texts. Three hundred beasts in addition to Dasaratha's jewel of a horse were bound there to the sacrificial posts. 26. Kausalya walked reverently all around the horse and with great joy cut it with three knives. 27. Her mind unwavering in her desire for righteousness, Kausalya passed one night with the horse. 28. The priests- the hotr, the adhvaryu and the udgatr- saw to it that the second and the junior most of king's wives, as well as his chief queen, were united with the horse. 29. Then the officiating priest, who was extremely adept and held his senses in check, removed the fat of the horse and cooked it in a mannner prescribed in the ritual texts. 30. At the proper time and in accordance with the ritual prescriptions, the lord of men then sniffed the fragrance of the smoking fat, thereby freeing himslef from sin. 31. Then acting in unison, the sixteen Brahman officiating priests threw the limbs of the horse into the fire, in accordance with ritual injunctions. 32. In other sacrifices, the oblation is offered upon plaksha tree, but in the horse sacrifice alone the apportionment of the victim is made on a bed of reeds. 33.The horse sacrifice is known as the three-day rite for both the Kalpasutra and the Brahmanas refer to the horse sacrifice as a rite lasting for three days. On the first day, the Catustoma rite is to be performed. Is this tranlation right ? Can anybody interpret verses 27,28. I also referred to another book tranlated by an Indian. The corresponding verses are almost equivalent. Title: The Ramayana of Valmiki Translated by: P.Lal Vikas publishing House PVT LTD. I did not have time for writing down the translations of Satapatha Brahmana from the following book. Title: The Satapatha Brahmana: According to the school of Madhyandina School Translated by: Julius Eggeling Edited by: Max Muller Publisher: Motilal Banarasidas, Delhi Can anyne translate the following sanskrit verses (Taken from the above book) 13th Kanda, 5th Adhyaya, 2 Brahmana, Verses1-10 "Utsakhya ava gudam dehi" "Nirayatyasvasya sisnam mahishy upashthe nidhatte 'vrisha vagi retodha reto dadhatv' iti mithunasyaiva sarvatvaya" What is the meaning of the word "mahishi" ? If anyone has the translations of verses 1-10 please provide it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laksri Posted January 8, 2002 Report Share Posted January 8, 2002 Originally posted by Raguraman: Hare Krishna, I do not know Sanskrit. I referred to some books(al of them have only translations and no sanskrit verses). Here are some of them. I can't understand the source... I have both the sanskrit, tamil and english. But I don't see anything as atrocious like this. unless you really break somehow the verses into unnatural and unreasonable ways to try to make such senses. Most of the verses I have are harmless as quoted by one of the earlier reposnder. Either the Author must be having a strangely corrupted source or you looking into some other verses or I ?. Hope not me. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-08-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 ...or you looking into some other verses or I ?. Could it be because there are more versions than one of Valmiki Ramayana? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted January 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 Hare Krishna, Dear Laksri, Again I say, I do not have any knowledge of sanskrit. The verses mentioned are according to the references I have given. I simply reproduced those verses from those books. Unfortunately I have only these books in our university. I simply want the corresponding verses to be translated correctly. Otherwise please suggest some good books on Valmiki Ramayana and Satapatha Brahmana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laksri Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 Originally posted by Raguraman: I simply want the corresponding verses to be translated correctly. Otherwise please suggest some good books on Valmiki Ramayana and Satapatha Brahmana. Since, I have not seen some thing like corresponding verses, it is easier to for me to say what I would do in these circumstance. Ideally one should approach ones acharya or sources acceptable to your acharya for such things. Anyhow since you have asked, see if you can get govindarAjeeyam [also called rAmAyana bhushnam traditionally believed to be a 17th century commentary], that would be nice. It would be in Sanskrit but it would provide access to orginal work. There is one book available at sri narasimhapriya office,chennai, which is sanskrit verse and govindarajiyam translation to tamil and traditional oral supplement only where is required. But the easiest to procure is Lifco's English or Tamil Ramayanam written by CR srinivAsa iyengAr, 50 years back. [Tamil version has sargam and verse trackable] There is also a commentary by mahesadesar, who is a disciple of nArayana thIrthA, it may be available in mAdhvA publications. But now knowing that first hand, so far I had only heard that [vAlmiki] ramAyana has some of these issues possible, you may want to look around. Pls let us know as you find. Same with me. Since you have access to some university library, look out for brahma sri raja sastrigal's 1907 print having different recessions of rAmanyanA noted in there. Also note, I am not trying to suggest that older copy is good. Good is only good. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-09-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 I think the simplest answer is that those verse are not from Valmiki Ramayana (mula-ramayana). Perhaps they are from some other Ramayana, not necessarily an authorized or authentic text. There are so many versions which claim the name Ramayana, but only Valmiki Ramayana is the original and authentic source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 Although not exactly related to this topic, it is interesting to note, Madhva did not consider the Valmiki Ramayana as authority. Perhaps, it wsa because he was aware of many versions of VR? Anyway, when he quotes Ramayana, he always quotes from Sruti [not extant now], which he calls the Moola Ramayana. Hence, for the tattva-vaadis, Valmiki Ramayana is not authority. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 This is likely due to the number of texts claiming to be "Valmiki Ramayana" and "Mahabharata". Mula-Ramayana is actually the real Valmiki Ramayana, but many other texts carry this name today. Valmiki was the Vyasa incarnation of the 24th Chatur-yuga of the present Manvantara. In that period he compiled the Vedic texts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 In Guadiya-Kanthahara, the following text of Madhva's is quoted: What is to be known as sastra or scripture? 2. 43 rg-yajum-samatharva-sca bharatam pa-caratrakam mula-ramayana-scaiva saastramityabhidhiyate yacchanukulametasya taccha saastram prakirtitam ato'nya grasthavistaro naiva sastram kurvatmatat "The Rig, Yajur, Sama, and Atharva Vedas, as well as the Mahabharata, the Narada-Pa-caratra, and the Mula-Ramayana , are certainly known as shastra, or revealed scripture. Those books that favorably follow in the footsteps of these authorized literatures are also designated as shastra. All other literatures (which are not in pursuance of these authorized scriptures) simply lead one down the wrong path, and can never be known as scriptures." (Madhva-Bhashyadhrita Skandavacana) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 I think a good way for you to learn VR is by getting the Sanskrit-English edition from Gita Press. Good luck. I like the Gita press edition as well. Plus all of their books are very inexpensive for their sizes (like 100 rupees for a 1000 page book or something). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted January 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 Hare Krishna, Thankyou for your help(Everyone). Atleast now I know there are many versions of Valmiki ramayana and yes I went to that mohemeddan site unfortunately. Are there many versions of Satapatha Brahmana as well. I did not find many books from google search. Perehaps somebody could suggest an authentic version of this scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 Originally posted by Raguraman: Hare Krishna, Thankyou for your help(Everyone). Atleast now I know there are many versions of Valmiki ramayana and yes I went to that mohemeddan site unfortunately. Are there many versions of Satapatha Brahmana as well. I did not find many books from google search. Perehaps somebody could suggest an authentic version of this scripture. You don't have to regret having visited that garbage site. You are fortunate as you posted your doubt here and got it clarified. Some people don't and it is such gullible ones these sites are targetting. You have shown prudence. I wouldn't really advice you to buy a book by searching the google. Many western authors intentionally mistranslated the vedas. So, did a few Indians. In doing so, they tried to show that the vedas are mundane. Motilal Banarasi dass has a few nice collections, but I would suggest that you ask J N Das to suggest the best editions. He is an expert in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted January 9, 2002 Report Share Posted January 9, 2002 Hare Krishna Raghuraman: Let us review verses 1:13:24-33 along with their exact translation. We will find that the truth bears absolutely no relationship to what this fraud site claims. 1:13:24: -------- Sanskrit verse: tathaa kekaya raajaanam vR^iddham parama dhaarmikam shvashuram raaja si.mhasya saputram tvam iha aanaya Word by word translation: tathaa= likewise; Kekaya+raajaanam= Kekaya's king; vR^iddham= elderly one, [old one]; parama+dhaarmikam= very, virtuous one; shvashuram= father-in-law; raaja+simhasya= of king, the lion's [Dasharatha's]; sa+putram= along with his sons; tvam+iha+aanaya= you, here, fetch. Line translation: "Likewise, King of Kekaya, an elderly, very virtuous, and also the father-in-law of our King Dasharatha, the Lion, be fetched by you along with his sons..." 1:13:25: -------- Sanskrit verse: a~Ngeshvaram maheSvaasam romapaadam su satkR^itam vayasyam raaja si.mhasya saputram tam iha aanaya Word by word translation: anga+iiswaram= Anga kingdom's, Lord; mahaa+bhaagam= very, prosperous one; Romapaadam; su+satkritam= well honoured; vayasyam= friend of; raaja+simhasya= king, the Lion [Dasharatha]; sam+aanaya= well, brought; yashashwinam= illustrious one. Line translation: "Romapaada, the King of Anga kingdom, very prosperous and illustrious friend of our King, the Lion [Dasharatha.] And that illustrious one be brought here...honouring him well..." 1:13:26: -------- Sanskrit verse: tathaa kosala raajaanam bhaanuma.ntam susatkR^itam magadha adhipatim shuuram sarva shaastra vishaaradam Word by word translation: tathaa= like that; kosala+raajaanam= Kosala's, king; bhaanuma.ntam= Bhanumanta; susatkR^itam= well honoured; magadha+adhipatim= Magadha, king; shuuram= brave one; sarva+shaastra+vishaaradam= in all scriptures, profound. Line translation: "Like that King of Kosala namely Bhanumanta, be honoured [and invited and likewise] King of Magadha, a brave one and a profound one in all scriptural knowledge..." 1:13:27: -------- Sanskrit verse: praaptij~nam paramodaaram susatkR^itam puruSarSabham raaj~naH shaasanam aadaaya chodayasva nR^iparSabhaan praaciinaan sindhu sauviiraan sauraaSThreyaam ca paarthivaan Word by word translation: praaptij~nam= Praaptijna, the king of Magadha; parama+udaaram= kind-hearted one; susatkR^itam= well honoured; puruSarSabham= king, the Sacred Bull; raaj~naH+shaasanam+aadaaya= king's, orders, taking; chodayasva= motivated by it; nR^iparSabhaan= kings, the Sacred Bulls; praaciinaan= eastern regional kings; sindhu+sauviiraan+sauraaSThreyaam= Sindhu, Sauviira, Sauraastra; ca= also; paarthivaan= kings of. Line translation: "That king of Magadha, Praaptijna, the kind-hearted, and the Sacred Bull among kings, be well honoured [and invited. Further] taking the orders of King Dasharatha and motivated by those orders, the kings of Sindhu, Sauviira and Sauraastra kingdoms may also be invited..." 1:13:28: -------- Sanskrit verse: daakSiNaatyaan narendraam ca samastaan aanayasva ha santi snigdhaaH ca ye ca anye raajaanaH pR^ithivii tale Word by word translation: daakSiNaatyaan= southern kingdoms'; narendraam+ca= kings, also; samastaan= all of them; aanayasva+ha= be invited, verily; santi= should there be; snigdhaaH+cha= friends, other; ye+cha+anye= those, also, other; raajaanaH= kings; pridhvi+tale= on earth's, surface.. Line translation: "Kings of southern kingdoms also, all of them be invited and should there be any other friends and other friendly kings on the surface of the earth..." 1:13:29: -------- Sanskrit verse: taan aanaya yathaa kSipram sa anugaan saha baandhavaan etaan duutaiH mahaabhaagaiH aanayasva nR^ipa aaj~nyaa Word by word translation: taan= them; aanaya= be invited; yathaa+kshipram= as early as; sa+anugaan= along with, followers; saha+baandhavaan= along with, their relatives; etaan= all these [kings]; duutaiH+mahaabhaagaiH= by envoys, great devoted ones; aanayasva= invite them; nR^ipa+aaj~nyaa= by king's, orders Line translation: "Them be invited as early as possible with all their followers, relatives...and all these kings be invited by envoys of great devotement...by the orders of our king... [Thus Sage Vashishta said to minister Sumantra.]" 1:13:30: -------- Sanskrit verse: vasiSTha vaakyam tat shrutvaa suma.ntraH tvaritaH tadaa vyaadishat puruSaan tatra raaj~naam aanayane shubhaan Word by word translation: vashishta+vaakyam= Sage Vashishta's words; tat= those; shrutvaa=on hearing; SumantraH= Minister Sumantra; tvaritaH+tada= expeditiously, thus; vyaadishat= ordered; puruSaan= his men, [envoys]; tatra= thither; raajnanam+aanayane= kings, to be invited; shubhaan= devout men [envoys]. Line translation: "On hearing the Sage Vashishta's those words, Minister Sumantra expeditiously ordered his envoys, devout ones, to invite all those kings...thither..." 1:13:31: -------- Sanskrit verse: svayam eva hi dharmaatmaa prayaato muni shaasanaat suma.ntraH tvarito bhuutvaa samaanetum mahaamatiH Word by word translation: svayam+eva= personally, thus; dharmaatmaa= virtuous one; prayayou= journeyed; muni+shaashanaat= by sage's, orders; SumantraH= Sumantra; twaritaH+bhuutva= brisk, be became; samaanetum= to fetch; mahii+kshitaH= earth's, rulers. Line translation: "Sumantra, the virtuous minister became brisk upon the Sage's words and personally journeyed to fetch all the rulers on the earth." 1:13:32: -------- Sanskrit verse: te ca karmaantikaaH sarve vasiSThaaya ca maharSaye sarvam nivedayanti sma yaj~ne yat upakalpitam Word by word translation: te= those; karmaantikaaH= artisans; sarve= all; Vashishtaaya+cha= to Sage Vashishta; maharSaye= to the sage; sarvam= all details; nivedayanti+sma= have, reported; yajne= in ritual works; yat+upakalpitam= that which accomplished. Line translation: "All those artisans [engaged in the ritual works] have reported to that sage Vashishta, the details of all those ritual works that are accomplished by them." 1:13:33: -------- Sanskrit verse: tataH priito dvija shreSThaH taan sarvaan munir abraviit avaj~nayaa na daatavyam kasya cit liilayaa api vaa Word by word translation: tataH= then; priitaH= satisfied; dwija+shreshtaH= Brahmin, the eminent [sage Vashishta]; taan+sarvaan= to, all of them; muniH+abraviit= the sage, said; avaj~nayaa= with disrespect; na= not; daatavyam= to be endowed; kasya+chit= to anyone; liilaya+api= deceptively, also, also; vaa= either. Line translation: "Then the satisfied Sage Vashishta, Brahmin, the eminent, spoke this way to all of them, "Nothing to be endowed to anyone with disrespect or deceptively, either..."" I don't have Satapatha Brahmana with me. Perhaps, J N Das can help you with that. Anyway, this should have convinced you not to take what all those abusive sites claim on face value. The best course is to learn from a bonafide acharya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Raghuraman: I think you are referring to a Saudi funded Muslim site called themodernreligion.com, which alleges that Kausalya had sex with the horse, by quoting those verse numbers from VR. First of all, as J N Das pointed out those verses have nothing to do with Asvamedha yagna. And the verses that pertain to Asvamedha yagna talk nothing of sex as that site alleges. In fact the word sex itself doesn't occur anywhere in the context.In fact, those verses clearly state that the horse was killed. I guess one cannot have sex with a dead horse! These garbage sites just quote verse numbers and if you research, you will find one of the 2 things: 1. The verse itself doesn't exist. 2. It has a totally different meaning. I think a good way for you to learn VR is by getting the Sanskrit-English edition from Gita Press. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laksri Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 Originally posted by karthik_v: Hare Krishna Raghuraman: Let us review verses 1:13:24-33 along with their exact translation. We will find that the truth bears absolutely no relationship to what this fraud site claims. .... 1:13:26: -------- Sanskrit verse: tathaa kosala raajaanam bhaanuma.ntam susatkR^itam magadha adhipatim shuuram sarva shaastra vishaaradam Word by word translation: tathaa= like that; kosala+raajaanam= Kosala's, king; bhaanuma.ntam= Bhanumanta; susatkR^itam= well honoured; magadha+adhipatim= Magadha, king; shuuram= brave one; sarva+shaastra+vishaaradam= in all scriptures, profound. Line translation: "Like that King of Kosala namely Bhanumanta, be honoured [and invited and likewise] King of Magadha, a brave one and a profound one in all scriptural knowledge..." .... I don't have Satapatha Brahmana with me. Perhaps, J N Das can help you with that. Anyway, this should have convinced you not to take what all those abusive sites claim on face value. The best course is to learn from a bonafide acharya. I am having a quick doubt. For example this verse is not to be found in the version I have. Bhanumata is the king of Kosala ? To my knowledge Kosala is the country of Sri rAmA (from sri manu's time). Refer verse in Bala Kandam, Sargam Five, Verse 6 [if it is the same]. kOsalO nAm muditah sphItO janapadO mahAn | nivishtah sarayUtIrE prabhUtadanadAnyavAn || This verse tells us the greatness of the country in which sri rAmA was born, the wealth of the famous vast country sprawling the two banks of saraiyu. deeper meaning words: muditah - citizens who are filled with joy. spItah - having samruti. Since the interpretation seems to be sometimes different in emphasis, for example in previously quoted 1:13:24 - mine had interpretation, "Even in the old age" instead of the interpretation given here to mean "one who is in old age", I will leave it to the individuals. I am also noting grouping of verses might be different in verses it looks like. Basically, 26,27 [first two lines] are not there in mine. [This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-12-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 HAre Krishna Laksri: Very nice observation. I didn't compare 1.13.26 and 1.5.6 before. I compared the versions published by Gita Press and the one from valmikiramayan.net and both contain the same verses (quoted here). I think both follow the eastern recenssion. Logically, Dasaratha should have been the king of Kosala, but that verse says otherwise. I don't have an explanation. Or does it have anything to do with Kausalya? Is her name derived from Kosala or something like that? May be if J N Das is not too busy, he can help clarify this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 What do you think about mahidhara and uvata? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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