Is the Koran derived from Manu Samhita?

[Bhaktavasya]

 

I saw a program last night about how muslims, being traders and travellers, incorporated various teachings and traditions into their culture. If at one time the whole planet was a Vedic culture, Bharat Varsha, then it's entirely possible that certain laws from the Manu Samhita were embraced by Islam. For example, the cutting off of bodily parts. In the Manu Samhita, a sudra can have his tongue cut out for speaking against a brahman, his hand cut off for striking a brahman. In the Koran there is no caste, but for the crime of theft a person is to be sentenced to amputation of one hand for the first offense, the second hand for the second offense. And it seems that the view on women is the same in both the Manu Samhita and the Koran.

 

[InvidShockTrooper]

The muslim god is named "Allah". Allah was the name of the moon god, in the old Arab Pagan religion. Look closely at the flag of Islam. It is green background, with a star and moon.

[valaya]

Originally posted by InvidShockTrooper:

The muslim god is named "Allah". Allah was the name of the moon god, in the old Arab Pagan religion. Look closely at the flag of Islam. It is green background, with a star and moon.

Guess that makes the star Radha--hey, I knew it all along!

 

 

[Puru Das Adhikari]

From Moses to Mahaprabhu

 

by Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura

http://bvml.org/SBTP/fmtm.html

 

"If the reader carefully considers, it will be found that the spiritual science gradually evolved from

ancient times and became more simple, more clear and more condensed. The more impurities

arising from time and place are removed, the more the beauties of the spiritual science brightly

shine before us. This spiritual science took birth in the land of kusha grass on the banks of the

Sarasvati river in Brahmavarta. As it gradually gained strength, this spiritual science spent its

childhood in the abode of Badarikashram, which is covered with snow. It spent its boyhood in

Naimisharanya on the banks of the Gomati river and its youth on the beautiful banks of the Kaveri

river in the province of Dravida. The spiritual science ayyained maturity in Navadvip, on the banks

of the Ganges, which purifies the universe.

 

By studying the history of the world, it is found that the spiritual science reached its peak in

Navadvip. The Supreme Absolute Truth is the only object of love for the living entities. Unless

one worhips Him with attachment, however, the living entity can never attain Him. Even if a

person gives up all affection for this world and thinks of the Supreme Lord, He is still not easily

achieved. He is controlled and attained by transcendental mellows alone. These mellows are of

five types - shanta, dasya, sakya, vatsalya and madhurya.

 

The first mellow, shanta, is the stage in which the living entity surpasses the pains of material

existence and situates himself in transcendence. In that state there is a little happiness, but no

feeling of independence. At that time the relationship between the practitioner and the Lord is not

yet established.

 

Dasya rasa is the second mellow. It contains all the ingradients of shanta rasa as well as affection.

"The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant". This type of relationship is found in dasya

rasa. No one cares much for any of the best things of this world unless they are connected with

affection. Therefore dasya rasa is superior to shanta rasa in many ways.

 

Sakya is superior to dasya. In dasya rasa there is a thorn in the form of awe and reverence, but

the main ornament in sakya rasa is the feeling of friendship in equality. Among the servants, one

who is a friend is superior. There is no doubt about it. In sakya rasa all the wealth of shanta and

dasya is included.

 

It is easy to understand that vatsalya is superior to sakya. A son gives more affection and

happiness than any friend. Therefore in vatsalya rasa we find the wealth of four rasas. Although

vatsalya rasa is superior to these other rasas, it appears insgnificant before madhurya rasa. There

may be many secrets unknown between father and son, but this not the case between husband

and wife. Therefore, if we deeply consider, it will be seen that all the above-mentioned rasas attain

perfection within madhurya rasa.

 

If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly understood that shanta rasa was seen

in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with

material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda,

Narada and Lord Shiva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence

and realized shanta rasa. Much later, dasya rasa manifested in Hanuman, the servant of Sri

Ramachandra. That same dasya rasa gradually expanded in the northwest and manifested in a

great personality named Moses.

 

In the age of Dvapara, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya rasa. They

preached this rasa throughout the world. Gradually tha rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries

and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles.

 

Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different

forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named

Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.

 

Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of

conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This

confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with

His followers.

 

Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named

Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and

America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus

Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking

the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.

 

It has been seen tha any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries,

therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in

India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears

first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries."

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Puru, I don't see the connection with the Manu Samhita and the laws in the Koran. Could you give you personal view on the subject?

[Puru Das Adhikari]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Puru, I don't see the connection with the Manu Samhita and the laws in the Koran. Could you give you personal view on the subject?

God is one, guru is one and religion is one. Simply there are different manifestations of the same according to time and circumstance, and according to the capacity of the audience to receive the divine message and the method of approaching the divine couple. In the introduction to his Sri Krsna Samhita,(which I posted a segment of) Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains in some detail how the theological history of the planet culminated in the appearnce of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Pure devotees see events of this world from the eternal perspective, and the Thakura is giving an overview which includes the different sectarian faiths that have also manifest over time, and how they connect to the 5 rasas of the spiritual realm,goloka vrndavana.

 

While there is no specific reference as to how the Manu Samhita and the Koran are connected, we can understand that the Koran was written by Mohammed in his samadhi bhasya. He was illiterate otherwise, yet he offered this scripture for his followers to adhere to ,to make gradual progress towards bhakti. Lord Jesus did the same thing in his sermons. Such shyaktavesa avataras are directly empowered by the Supreme Lord to preach according to time and circumstance and often give the masses of people sub religious principles ( a sin Lord Buddha's case), mode of goodness instructions (as in Lord Jesus' preaching) or religiosity of some kind (Mohammed taught basic morality) so that they can progress toward a sinless life and in future come in contact with bhakti.

 

The Thakura also writes in one of his essays,

Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma,

http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.html that as vaisnavas, or aspiring devotees, we should not criticise or reject other religious practices. That these practices are there by the will of the Supreme Lord so that jiva souls can make gradual progress towards him.

He says in this article:

 

Actually religious principles followed by people in general are different only due to the different qualifications of the

practitioners, but the constitutional religious principles of all living entities are one. It is not proper for swanlike persons to reject the religious principles that people in general follow according to

their situation."

 

If you read his entire piece,

Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma,

http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.html

you will get a god feeling for his broad minded approach to religion, even though he was an eternally liberated nitya-siddha manjari himself, Kamala manjari.

 

Actualy in hs Sri Krsna samhita introduction

 

[ Sri Krsna Samhita is SBT's commentary on what he considered the most important slokas of the Srimad Bhagavatam. It is one of his earlier books]

 

the Thakura explains how the conflict between the demons and the daivas (devotees) started with the sacrifice of Daksa and his conflict with Lord Siva and has manifested in other way afterward to diminish the influence of the demigods on this planet.

 

This is all part of the Lords grand plan for kali yuga. Krsna has His grand plan to deliver all the jiva souls and ultimately for this age He wanted to offer the world the highest understanding of Radha and Krsna thorugh the appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

In the same way that there are so many preliminary events in the Mahabharata leading up to the 5th chapter, all took place so that Lord Krsna could enact his plan to give the Bhagavad-gita. In the same way so many events (explained in SBT's introduction to Sri Krsna Samhita) are explained in connection to the ultimate appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the offering to the jiva's of his Sikshastakam, which embody the highest understanding eternal.

 

So the connection of the Koran to the Manu Samhita must be there in a subtle if not gross way, as Mohammed is part of Krsna's plan as was Manu. That is how I see it, since you asked.

 

I'll post the shikastakam if you like and you can refer to them.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 01-12-2002).]

[Puru Das Adhikari]

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed His disciples to write books on the science of Krsna, a task which His followers have continued to carry out down to the present day. The elaborations and expositions on the philosophy taught by Lord Caitanya are, in fact, the most voluminous, exacting, and consistent, due to the system of disciplic succession. Although Lord Caitanya was widely

renowned as a scholar in His youth, He left only eight verses, called Siksastaka. These eight verses clearly reveal His mission

and precepts. These supremely valuable prayers are translated

herein.

 

1

 

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha--davagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam

 

 

Glory to the sri-krsna-sankirtana, which cleanses the heart of

all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire

of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This

sankirtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity

at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon.

It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the

ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste

the nectar for which we are always anxious.

 

 

2

 

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah

 

 

O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction

to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of

names, like Krsna and Govinda. In these transcendental

names You have invested all Your transcendental energies.

There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these

names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily

approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate

that I have no attraction for them.

 

 

3

 

trnad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

 

 

One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble

state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the

street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all

sense of false prestige, and should be ready to offer all

respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the

holy name of the Lord constantly.

 

 

4

 

na dhanam na janam na sundarim

kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye

mama janmani janmanisvare

bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi

 

 

O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor

do I desire beautiful women nor do I want any number of

followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service,

birth after birth.

 

 

5

 

ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram

patitam mam visame bhavambudhau

krpaya tava pada-pankaja-

sthita-dhuli-sadrsam vicintaya

 

 

O son of Maharaja Nanda (Krsna], I am Your eternal servitor,

yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth

and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and

place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.

 

 

6

 

nayanam galad-asru-dharaya

vadanam gadgada-ruddhaya gira

pulakair nicitam vapuh kada

tava nama-grahane bhavisyati

 

 

O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of

love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When

will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body

stand on end at the recitation of Your name?

 

 

7

 

yugayitam nimesena

caksusa pravrsayitam

sunyayitam jagat sarvam

govinda-virahena me

 

 

O Govinda! Feeling Your separations I am considering a

moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing

from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant

in the world in Your absence.

 

 

8

 

aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam

adarsanan marma-hatam karotu va

yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato

mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah

 

 

I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so

even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me

brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is

completely free to do anything and everything, for He is

always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally.

 

 

Siksastakam

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 01-12-2002).]

[Tarun]

Koran derived from Manu-smRti? Of course, where else?

dharmAn tu saxAd bhagavat-praNItAm...

What doesn't?

According to 3 modes...

[Avinash]

If we find some ideas in common between Manu Samhita and Quran, then this is not sufficient to conclude that Quran is derived from Manu Samhita. We have also to prove that those who wrote Quran had read Manu Samhita (either completely or partially).

[laksri]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

 

I saw a program last night about how muslims, being traders and travellers, incorporated various teachings and traditions into their culture.

 

If at one time the whole planet was a Vedic culture , Bharat Varsha, then it's entirely possible that certain laws from the Manu Samhita were embraced by Islam.

 

There is story in Vishnu purAna, of one instance of races being forced to downgrade their rights to earlier duites.

 

This in between in the story of King sAgarA.

Those who can consult Vishnu Purana Book 4 Chapter 3 Verse 17.

------------

 

When the boy grew up and was capable of reflection he said to the mother one day,

"why are we dwelling in this ashram of our guru , where is my father, and who is he ? "

His mother replied to him all that happened.

 

On hearing that he became highly concerned, and vowed to recover his [father's] ancestors kingdom and take revenge on haihaya and talajangha people.

 

When he became a man, he nearly put whole of haihaya to death for destroying the vedic culture. And proceeded to destroy sakas, yavanas, kambojas, paradas, pahnavas. But Sage vasishta, the family priest of sAgarA, intewined and stopped him by saying, " enough is enough, do not continue your anger any further on whom you can assume as no more threat. In order to fulfil your vow, I will slower their regeneration of their tribes, and seperate them away from their earlier duties of their caste".

 

sAgarA in compliance with the injunctions of his spirutual guide, restricted himself to the imposition of distinguishing marks on the vanquished countries.

 

for example, he made the yavanas[greeks/ionians] shave the upper half of their heads. And the paradas[gypsies] wore a long hair. pahnavas [persians] their bread grow.

 

All this to show thier obedience to command and policies [based on scriptures].

 

[History shows for a Tartars shove front part of the head. Greeks have a peculiar shave, so do Chineese have a single tuft, and persians long breads.]

 

Having found the war mongers, unfit for the pursuit of their caste duties, they were deprived of the oblation to fire and study of associated scriptures.Thus excluded from these scriptural study, they were abonded by the brahmins, and slowly became melechas.

 

sAgara after the sucessful recovery, ruled over all the seven zones of the earth with authority.

------------

 

All this before the age of sri rAmA, so just as now, then too for a long time, only the culture of religion was left out for errosion, there was no mechanism in place to sustain it.

 

Slowly, events and history fuse, collective memories and new circumstances create different beliefs and norms for socially accepted behaviour.

 

 

[gHari]

As Darwin would point out, it could actually be a common ancestor from which both authorities manifested; not that one evolved into the other. It seems that perhaps Puru das also suggested this in so many words.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I dont think the punishment of crimes is a proof that one evolved from the other. There is a natural instinct for society to punish criminals, which would naturally manifest in the form of harm or restriction.

[Ananga]

I challenge anyone to show how Manu Samhita fits in with the movement of Sri Caitanya. It seems to be counter to the whole spirit of bhakti. The idea of prohibitions against cruel and unusal punishment is so much more civilized. The appalling conditions in U.S. prisons is bad enough, without resorting to hacking off people's limbs on top of everything else. After all, everyone knows that the prison system in America is overcrowded mainly with drug addicts (who need medical treatment more than hard time) and not violent criminals. An effective system of justice is indispensible for keeping law and order in the land, but it must be truly just and not unduly harsh and barbaric. As far as the repression of women in Eastern and Western culture, that speaks for itself (definitely not in line with Mahaprabhu's teachings). It would be best to not mention texts like Manu Samhita at all.

 

[valaya]

Don't know whether this is at all relevant to the thread or topics under discussion, but since it was brought up in the previous post I must say that the movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has little or nothing to do with religion as such. In fact, it distills the essence of all religions into their purest form as a loving interpersonal relationship with the Absolute Supreme Divinity. His teachings can only be truly realized from the perspective of Raganuga, sometimes called para-bhakti, while blindly following regulated vaidhi can often be a hindrance to progress, individual or institutional.

 

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 01-13-2002).]

[laksri]

Originally posted by Ananga:

I challenge anyone to show how Manu Samhita fits in with the movement of Sri Caitanya.

Neither I am an expert in Manu or Sri Caitanya, but let us see the spirit of the verses. Since this was written for all ages, it is very important for us to resolve this question. Especially to hint that sri manu as being cruel, is unjust.

 

Let us see about compassion :

 

"If a blow is struck against men or animals in order to (give them) pain, (the judge) shall inflict a fine in proportion to the amount of injury (caused). "

 

Example of shared responsibility and unbias to rich:

 

"If the driver is skilful (but negligent), he alone shall be fined; if the driver is unskilful, also the (owner) occupants [who is expected to be careful in hiring the driver] of the carriage (also) shall be each fined one hundred (panas)."

 

Warning to power abusing kings :

 

" Know that a king who heeds not the rules (of the law), who is an atheist, and rapacious, who does not protect (his weak subjects, but) devours them, will sink low (after death)."

 

Thank god [read as krishna], kings don't rule, other than as parlimentary monarchy and or may be countries like Bhutan, so they can live without being concerned about human right abuses.

 

But manu tells more, which regular rule books may not say,

"For by punishing the wicked and by favouring the virtuous, kings are constantly sanctified, just as twice-born men by sacrifices."

 

But who cares, god [krsna], let's think first of this life, even if it means hell in next.

 

Similar to governer/president's pardon :

 

"A king who desires welfare may (mostly)forgive litigants, infants, aged and sick men (and helpless), who inveigh against him." i.e "He who, being abused by men in pain, pardons (them), will in reward of that (act) be exalted in heaven; but he who, (proud) of his kingly state, forgives them not, will for that (reason) sink into hell."

 

Ok now let us come to the difficult portions,

For example, let us say theft etc, was a very very serious crime, much more than injuring etc or not paying debt etc. Due to the extraordinary emphasis on theft, it is stated,

 

"An offence (of this description), which is committed in the presence (of the owner) and with violence, will be robbery; if (it is committed) in his absence, it will be theft; likewise if (the possession of) anything is denied after it has been taken."

 

"On that man who may steal (any of) the above-mentioned articles, when they are prepared for (use), let the king inflict the first (or lowest) amercement [fine]; likewise on him who may steal (a sacred) fire out of the room (in which it is kept)."

 

"In addition, with whatever limb a thief in any way commits (an offence) against men, even of that (the king) shall deprive him in order to prevent repetitions of the crime."

 

But even beyond king is not even given the option in rape. It is dealt with very severely,

"This rule does not apply to the wives of actors and singers, nor (of) those who live on (the intrigues of) their own (wives); for such men send their wives (to others) or, concealing themselves, allow them to hold criminal intercourse."

 

"Yet he who secretly converses with such women, or with female slaves kept by one (master), and with female medicants, shall be compelled to pay a small fine."

 

"He who violates an unwilling maiden shall instantly suffer corporal punishment; but a man who enjoys a willing maiden shall not suffer corporal punishment, if (his caste be) the acceptable with hers (or as hers)."

 

There are other considerations, which are out of preview of our discussion, like castes. Because Krishna says he vreated the castes, so manu is strict with it, especially here.

 

"For by (adultery) caused by a mixture of the castes (varna) among men; thence (follows) sin, which cuts up even the roots and causes the destruction of everything. "

 

But let us stick to justness of pushnishment, which is our topic, you will rarely find severe punishment mentioned, if it is, it is when it is too henious and repetitive ( or were considered once severe). The conditions required by those are also as extreme and <u>history shows, it was not required to be followed</u> before, since it is not record so in history, while other kinds of punishment where. It was a powerful like a deterent, much better than nuclear threats to bring terrorists to justice or loose innocent people and have tribunals in secrecy. Because this is a guide book, it is comprehensive and smaller compared to long lawyer centric constitutions.

 

So to make judgements like these on very sensitive writs, one has to be careful. Though I am not trying to justify any rules or the rule book, one has to understand

1) that large sections are meaningful if not applicable after many eons as guide

2) even developed countries have corporal punishment to this date

3) some systems have very severe treatment, which is nothing in comparision

4) most systems give a raw deal to aliens compared to locals, which is absent in this

 

This system has worked so beatifully, atleast till 10th century through local self governments. Surely, either we are not suitable for it now or we do not understand it or may be we are at a point in development of civilization where it makes no sense any more. What ever is the case, there is lot worth in understanding, especially to appreciate sri chaitanya's teachings better in its light.

 

I do not challenge anybody to show anything though. [sorry pun intended]

 

Sorry, just a way of registering a humble protest to strong words, in defence of the first man of the human race, - call it genetic self defence.

 

 

[This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-13-2002).]

[YASH]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

I saw a program last night about how muslims, being traders and travellers, incorporated various teachings and traditions into their culture. If at one time the whole planet was a Vedic culture, Bharat Varsha, then it's entirely possible that certain laws from the Manu Samhita were embraced by Islam. For example, the cutting off of bodily parts. In the Manu Samhita, a sudra can have his tongue cut out for speaking against a brahman, his hand cut off for striking a brahman. In the Koran there is no caste, but for the crime of theft a person is to be sentenced to amputation of one hand for the first offense, the second hand for the second offense. And it seems that the view on women is the same in both the Manu Samhita and the Koran.

-----

If Alaya (as in Himalaya = snow home in sanskrit)

= Allah (sound alike) then

maybe Mohammed a well off Arab living under then foreign non Arab rulers came up with

a mantra for Arab home rule and then some more in the guise of Islam.

-- as did Jesus before him . ??

based on the notion of

karta, karam, karan (-bahi,-antah,-adhi).

[xvi000]

Don't you feel this topic & this sort of topics will raise too many questions?

[Bhaktavasya]

 

I know Manu Samhita has nothing to do with Bhakti yoga, but seeing as Manu is mentioned as 'the father of mankind', for curiousity's sake, check out Manu Samhita (just type in the words in the address bar)and then go to 'Laws of Manu'. This is where the marriage of a woman with red hair is forbidden, for example, in chapter 8 (VIII). In the same chapter it is mentioned that the 'sudra' can have his (or her)tongue cut out for speaking against a brahman, and hot oil poured into his ear to 'arrogantly' teaching a brahman his duty.

It is very clear to me that Krishna's pastimes are enacted to contradict such cruel and unusual punishments, for example the Manu Samhita forbids the union of a brahman with a sudra or low caste woman, yet Vyasadev favoured the mother of Vidura, a maidservant, and the great sage Vidura was born from her womb.

Rupa and Sanatana Goswamis, being born in muslim families (and therefore considered outcasts or less than sudra by Manu Samhita standards) would have had, by Manu's laws, hot oil poured into their ears for teaching the real duty of brahmans; to give up their pride and follow in the footsteps of the milkmaids of Vrndavan.

A corelation to the laws of the Koran can be found in the 8th chapter , verse 78;

"She who shows disrespect to a husband who is addicted to some evil passion, is a drunkard, or diseased SHALL BE DESERTED FOR 3 MONTHS AND BE DEPRIVED OF HER ORNAMENTS AND FURNITURE." In the next verse, strangely, she can leave her husband if he is a eunuch or not manly enough!

 

In Islam, a woman who divorces her husband loses custody of her children.

 

There is also prohibition in MS against a brahman marrying a woman who is named after a river or a tree (chapter 3! I guess Tulasi and Ganga weren't popular girl names during that time period.

 

Manu, Shmanu. Father of mankind, maybe but not humankind.

 

 

[laksri]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

There is also prohibition in MS against a brahman marrying a woman who is named after a river or a tree (chapter 3! I guess Tulasi and Ganga weren't popular girl names during that time period.

 

Manu, Shmanu. Father of mankind, maybe but not humankind.

 

Please see even kAmsutra, it mentions the same, first one should study and deliberate, why when who has told what, what is the meaning. simply getting upset will not help the situation.

 

Anyhow, a very important principle, is give honorable persons the respect, even if you diagree (right now). May be your, mine, our understanding will change tommorrow. Since many of our ancestors given respect, so let us appreciate the intelligence of our ancestors first and give them the benefit of doubt. By taking shallow view of history, to judge eons by lifetime is itself a challenge.

 

I was reading in a purAna, how in kali yuga, fire will burn upside down, which I thought were the works of crazy. slowly i saw the context to releaise the translation is about tube bulbs hanging upside down. So please understand, words have different meaning in different eras, because of the context of use.

 

also when aryabhatta was mentioning some 1500 years ago in astronomical treatise about earth going around sun, the succesive commentators thought the great guy was slipping.

 

Can you imagine being without a car - to walk where you want to go, live few hourse without electricity - no lights, ac , heater, no hot water in pipes. Then how can we imagine life even few centuries back. Imagine law and order, social condition, and how the civilization endured to give a chance to us. What made them tick, same rules as now ? surely not.

 

 

[This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-15-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I challenge anyone to show how Manu Samhita fits in with the movement of Sri Caitanya. It seems to be counter to the whole spirit of bhakti.

Manu samhita has everything to do with Sri Chaitanya's monement as well as any movement that follows the Vedic culture.

 

Sri Chaitanya accepted the Srimad Bhagavatam as the highest authority, and therein we find:

 

manvantarani sad-dharmah

 

"The laws of Manu are the sat-dharma, eternal religious principles."

 

Your sentimental rejection of sat-dharma in favour of your conditioned veiw of the modern political situation, and comparison of it to sat-dharma, is less than useful.

 

Furthermore, Svayambhuva Manu himself is one of the twleve Mahajana's (great authorities of devotion), and this samhita was authored by him, not the present Manu. It is the writing of a pure devotee of the Lord, and as Srimad Bhagavatam states, "We must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas, the twelve authorities of bhakti."

 

As to whether it has practical application in the Kali yuga, that is another point. First, there is no religious king, therefore religious rule is automatically meaningless.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 01-15-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It is very clear to me that Krishna's pastimes are enacted to contradict such cruel and unusual punishments...

You are confused as to the purpose of Krishna's pastimes. He does not descend for any mundane reason such as stopping "cruel and unusual punishment". He Himself, as a king, ruled according to Manu's law and gave out direct punishment to many people.

 

What is the purpose of Lord Krishna's descent? The Bhagavatam states it is to reclaim the lost conditioned souls.

 

Any other mundane purpose which we attribute to His divine descent is just our own inability to differentiate between the divine and material natures.

 

[Tarun]

Connection between all Vedas & Koran was nicely delineated in 1-2 VNN articles about 2 years ago.

What to speak of connections within, Om = Aum = AUM is written on every bonafide Koran's cover ever printed.

Only one stipulation:

You'll have to hold your Koran facing your mirror to notice.

Some go so far as to say:

Prophet Mohammed was a reincarnation, id est, transmigration of Samba, KRSNa's naughtiest Dvarka-dhAm child.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by jndas:

You are confused as to the purpose of Krishna's pastimes. He does not descend for any mundane reason such as stopping "cruel and unusual punishment". He Himself, as a king, ruled according to Manu's law and gave out direct punishment to many people.

 

What is the purpose of Lord Krishna's descent? The Bhagavatam states it is to reclaim the lost conditioned souls.

 

Any other mundane purpose which we attribute to His divine descent is just our own inability to differentiate between the divine and material natures.

lord Krishna appeared to deliver the pious (who were being persecuted by miscreat kings and rulers) and anniliate the miscreants, as well as to establish eternal religious principals. Disciriminating between higher and lower caste persons is not an eternal religious principal, neither is cutting out someone's tongue for speaking their minds.

Cruel and unusal punishment is not a mundane thing, except maybe in your own mind.

I've been thorough this scenerio before, swapping contradictory quotes to establish each other's point of view. I believe what I want, you will hold on to what you accept as 'highest truth' in scripture. Here's one back at you:

 

"The Vedas are meant for those who are still in the modes of material nature; RISE ABOVE THE MODES, O ARJUNA, BE TRANSCENDENTAL TO ALL OF THEM"

 

Please re-examine talks between Lord Chaitanya and Ramananda Raya to get a better grip on the Lord's view of what is really the highest duty for all living beings.

 

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

 

p.s. if suffering (due to cruelty or otherwise) was something mundane then Vasudeva Datta would have been a mundane sentimentalist, which he of course was not.

[Gauracandra]

Since we can reject Manu I suggest we also reject Veda Vyasa. Hell, I don't like the hells in the 5th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Veda Vyasa Smeda Vyasa. In fact, I also don't care that much for the incarnation of Parasurama - Parasurama Parasmurama. And the Bhagavad Gita? It says that children who die do so because of their Karma. What? Bhagavad Gita Smagavad Gita. In fact anytime I don't 'feel' like accepting something, I'll just reject it. No drinking alcohol? What was Srila Prabhupada thinking? Srila Prabhupada Smila Prabhupada.

 

Gauracandra