mark Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 Hi everybody. Hare Krsna. I've been away from the Internet forums for quite a few months now and upon returning I see the same old arguments going on. Not so much here although I'm sure if I looked around the archives I could pull something up. I'm referring to the debate that's going on over on the Dharma Mela. It's the old Diksa vs Siksa guru argument that never seems to die. Why is this such an issue among so many devotees? It seems like too much time and energy is wasted on this subject. When I read through the various arguments it actually turns me off of Krsna Consciousness and begins to remind me of the strict political hierarchy of the Catholic church; as if the politics were more important than the religion. I'm just wondering why this is such a big issue with those who follow in the teachings of ISKCON and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Who really cares whether your guru is siksa or diksa or whatever. If you're so fortunate enough as to be able to actually find a guru who is true to his beliefs and convictions and loves God/Krsna and understands the intricacies of it all and is willing to share them with you as a disciple then isn't that all that matters? I'm asking this because I truly don't know. I'm very ignorant when it comes to this so any reply to this would be most helpful. I'm just trying hard to make sense out of it. Thanks. Mark [This message has been edited by mark (edited 01-15-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janus Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Hi everybody. Hare Krsna. I've been away from the Internet forums for quite a few months now and upon returning I see the same old arguments going on. Not so much here although I'm sure if I looked around the archives I could pull something up. I'm referring to the debate that's going on over on the Dharma Mela. It's the old Diksa vs Siksa guru argument that never seems to die. Why is this such an issue among so many devotees? It seems like too much time and energy is wasted on this subject. When I read through the various arguments it actually turns me off of Krsna Consciousness and begins to remind me of the strict political hierarchy of the Catholic church; as if the politics were more important than the religion. I'm just wondering why this is such a big issue with those who follow in the teachings of ISKCON and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Who really cares whether your guru is siksa or diksa or whatever. If you're so fortunate enough as to be able to actually find a guru who is true to his beliefs and convictions and loves God/Krsna and understands the intricacies of it all and is willing to share them with you as a disciple then isn't that all that matters? I'm asking this because I truly don't know. I'm very ignorant when it comes to this so any reply to this would be most helpful. I'm just trying hard to make sense out of it. Thanks. Mark Dear Mark What I get from the recomendation that a guru should not accept very many disciples is that guru's and their small bands of disciples are autonomous, having only the shastra and their direct liniage as their spiritual authority. The idea that there should be a GBC or any establishment hierarchy seems to me to be meant only to cover the business end, the establishment of facilities for spiritual and cultural growth and for preaching purposes, not as a means to control the individual gurus and their disciples. Such an interpretation as the later presents demonstrates an attitude of distrust, not only of the guru's integrity and of the disciples common sense, but also of the process which would only have to be managed in this way if it did not work, if by following the process of Krsna Consciousness one could make no advancement even up to the point whereat one could be trusted to perform the duties of the disciple/guru relationship with sincerity. What else it could imply is that there are indeed persons who wish to institutionalize themselves in positions of power. I would not be dissuaded from persueing my own individual path to perfection by the appearance upon the road of various sights that agitate me, but the debate between Rocana das and Bhrama das upon Guru tattva has not been without attraction for me for it has strengthened my conviction and dispersed my doubts on a number of issues. Through the efforts of Bhrama das and others I have now a portrait of Guru that testifies to unity and which thus promotes harmony, excatly what you hope for, the recognition that whether siska or diksa and whenever and wherever they may appear; all are like cool water to lips parched by ages of living in the fire. Hari bol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citta Hari Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 " It's the old Diksa vs Siksa guru argument that never seems to die." Mark, the argument does not die because there are those whose understanding of the siddhanta is rather limited but haven't figured that out yet. That in itself is not a problem, but too often such devotees of tender faith and little realization are the champions of their limited conceptions of the truth, which can (and obviously does) unfortunately take the form of opposing those who actually do understand and accurately represent the teachings. We are cultivating the ability to see Sri Guru everywhere, and until we can we are in a somewhat dangerous position. If we can't see our Guru in everyone and everything then we must seek out competent guidance. It's reasonable, is it not? Yet there are those who, in the name of being 'chaste' and so forth vehemently oppose such an idea. Their lack of understanding of guru-tattva is made obvious by their dealings with other Vaisnavas. Usually the best we can do is respect them from a great distance. -Citta Hari dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valaya Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Originally posted by Citta Hari: " It's the old Diksa vs Siksa guru argument that never seems to die." Mark, the argument does not die because there are those whose understanding of the siddhanta is rather limited but haven't figured that out yet. That in itself is not a problem, but too often such devotees of tender faith and little realization are the champions of their limited conceptions of the truth, which can (and obviously does) unfortunately take the form of opposing those who actually do understand and accurately represent the teachings. We are cultivating the ability to see Sri Guru everywhere, and until we can we are in a somewhat dangerous position. If we can't see our Guru in everyone and everything then we must seek out competent guidance. It's reasonable, is it not? Yet there are those who, in the name of being 'chaste' and so forth vehemently oppose such an idea. Their lack of understanding of guru-tattva is made obvious by their dealings with other Vaisnavas. Usually the best we can do is respect them from a great distance. -Citta Hari dasa Right on fer sure!!! ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pita das Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 As Im now just starting to reread Shree Chaintanya Charitumrita in the introduction Srila Prabhupada comments about Srila Krishna Das Kavirajas paying of obeisances to his spiritual masters. Srila Prabhupadas comments are here SKK is saying spritual masters in the pural meaning the entire Guru Parumpara. One has his spiritual master and the disclip chain the parumpara are also consider all to be our Gurus Then S.KK pays His obeisances to Lord Chaitanya and to the devottees. When we hear from devottees it is understood that if they are respeaking what we have frist hear for our spiritual master It is also our Guru Maharaja speaking threw them. Some devottees tho when approching various advanced Vashnnavas want to devlop a very close realationship with them and see these siskas gurus as one and different than ones original spiritual master which it seems to me to be a misunderstanding . Srila Prabhupada has therefore warned us when hearing from other spiritual authoirties that if they speak something even a little different you will be confused So you see Mark many become confushed and underestamate the relationship they have with thier original guru Maharaja who has given them the knowledge to even hear from others. It remainds me of the verse in the Gita where Krishna explain that those who worship the demigods He makes there faith strong. It was the quaifications given from Srila Prabhupada that has given these devottees the knowledge to understand any siska Guru therefore He is our Siska and Dikya Guru combined. At the same time one has the duty to hear from and search out the highest spiritual assoication which is advailable and render service o Them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valaya Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 First realize complete helplessness Then accept absolute dependence On His Divine Grace alone. Clinging only to Her As a humble servant Always unworthy Less than all. We see Guru As that One In everyone. ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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