City older than Mohenjodaro unearthed

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

City older than Mohenjodaro unearthed

 

REUTERS [ WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 16, 2002 6:25:32 PM ]

 

EW DELHI: Indian scientists have made an archaeological find dating back to 7500 BC suggesting the world's oldest cities came up about 4,000 years earlier than is currently believed, a top government official said on Wednesday.

 

The scientists found pieces of wood, remains of pots, fossil bones and what appeared like construction material just off the coast of Surat, Science and Technology Minister Murli Manohar Joshi told a news conference.

 

"Some of these artefacts recovered by the NIOT (National Institute of Ocean Technology) from the site such as the log of wood date back to 7500 BC, which is indicative of a very ancient culture in the present Gulf of Cambay, that got submerged subsequently," Joshi said.

 

Current belief is that the first cities appeared around 3500 BC in the valley of Sumer, where Iraq now stands, a statement issued by the government said.

 

"We can safely say from the antiquities and the acoustic images of the geometric structures that there was human activity in the region more than 9,500 years ago (7500 BC)," S.N. Rajguru, an independent archaeologist, said.

 

The findings, if confirmed, will dislodge the Harappan Civilisation dating back to 2500 BC as India's oldest civilisation.

 

[bhaktashab]

Interesting Prabhu.

Please keep us updated on the impact this find has on the scientific community. I expect some text books will need rewriting. Or will we see the Indologists and Anthropoligists hide and ignore it.

 

------------------

shab.

[Avinash]

Hey, it is really interesting.

[Gauracandra]

Yeah, interesting stuff. I found a website once that showed some of the underwater pictures of Dwaraka off the coast of Gujarat. That was very interesting as well. Hopefully there will be more such discoveries. We see so much archaeology done in Greece, Egypt and China. Though I rarely hear of much in India. So it is good to see reports like this.

 

Gauracandra

[Avinash]

Yes, it is true that not much of archaelogy is done in India. But, can't blame archaelogists also. They do not get that much of fund.

[jijaji]

Here is the story from another source...

 

BBC News

 

Wednesday, 16 January, 2002, 13:14 GMT

Indian civilisation '9,000 years old'

 

 

By Rajyasri Rao in Delhi

Marine scientists in India say an archaeological site off India's western coast may be up to 9,000 years old.

 

The revelation comes about 8 months after acoustic images from the sea-bed suggested the presence of built-up structures resembling the ancient Harappan civilisation, which dates back around 4,000 years.

 

The Harappan civilisation is the oldest in the subcontinent.

 

Although Palaeolithic sites dating back around 20,000 years have been found on the coast of India's western state of Gujarat before, this is the first time there are indications of man-made structures as old as 9,500 years found deep beneath the sea surface.

 

Search impeded

 

Known as the Gulf of Cambay, the area has been subject to a great deal of archaeological interest due to its proximity to another ancient submerged site - Dwaraka - in the nearby Gulf of Kutch.

 

Harappan remains have been found in India and Pakistan

 

But investigations in the Cambay region have been made more difficult by strong tidal currents running at around two to three metres per second.

 

They impede any sustained underwater studies.

 

Marine scientists led by the Madras-based National Institute of Ocean Technology said they got around this problem by taking acoustic images off the sea-bed and using dredging equipment to extract artefacts.

 

A second round of investigations was conducted about three months ago.

 

'Glorious past'

 

The Indian Minister for Ocean Technology, Murli Manohar Joshi, told journalists the images indicated not only symmetrical man-made structures but also a paleo-river, running for around nine kilometres, on whose banks all the artefacts were discovered.

 

Experts say submerged pottery may offer a clue

 

Carbon dating carried out on one of these artefacts - a block of wood bearing the signs of deep fissures - suggested it had been around since about 7,595 BC.

 

Mr Joshi said his ministry planned to set up a multi-disciplinary group to look into what this discovery really meant and what relation it might have to other ancient sites in the area.

 

Critics say the minister, who has been in the eye of a storm recently for attempts to Hinduise school history textbooks, may well be presenting these archaeological discoveries as proof of India's glorious and ancient past.

 

But others say only further scientific studies can tell whether such a claim can be made at all.

 

 

[karthik_v]

Dear Jijaji Prabhu,

 

A valid observation. If we assume that MAhabharat was fought in our dimensions, then I think the numbers mentioned therein might often be exaggerations. Let us not forget that the original Mahabharata has been embellished over a period of time and there are countless versions. Often each king had his chroniclers include his name too. One example is that of Cheralathan, a Chera king, who claimed to have fed both the armies. Such thing is not even mentioned in the original.

 

So, there is a distinct possibility of exaggeration.

 

But, let us also consider another side. European universities have been rewarding Indians for advancing theories that categorise all our epics as myths. One such example is Romilla Thapar getting her D.Litt from Oxford last week. And, these 'scholars' have not done so on the basis of any facts. They have simply advanced their theories on 'previously accepted' notions. So, this camp is even worse.

 

Another possibility is that Mahabharata was fought in a different plane or dimension. Now Quantum mechanics tells us that an entity can exist in multiple dimensions simultaneously. We simply exist in 3-D plus time. What if Mahabharat was fought in a higher dimension and the sages just recorded that for us? If so, we won't find any archeological evidence, even if the war had ended just this morning. QM now allows for atleast 11 dimensions.

[shvu]

 

For instance, there was the Bhandarkar foundation [indians], which carried out excavation around Hastinapura during early and mid 20th century. The oldest date of activity in that area was determined to be 600 BC. I 'll pull out the exact details.

 

Also the Dwaraka excavation by Rao, which was dated as 1500 - 800 BC.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Excavations cannot be done in Hastinapur because there is a city of millions of people still existing there.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 01-17-2002).]

[jijaji]

B.B. Lal, Director General (Retd.) Archaeological Survey of India

 

I. The ‘Why’ of the Ayodhya Excavations

There exists a great divergence of opinion regarding the historicity of the two Indian epics, viz. the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. According to some, everything mentioned in these texts is true to the very letter, whi.le others regard them as mere figments of the imagination. Such confusion seems to prevail because there are no inscriptions contemporary with the events mentioned in these epics, which could indisputably authenticate their historicity. The earliest inscriptions available in India date back to the third-fourth century BC (letting aside the inscriptions of the Indus Civilization, which, unfortunately, still remain undeciphered). On the other hand, the events narrated in the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, if these had a basis in historical reality, are unlikely to have been later than the time of the Buddha, i .e. the sixth century BC, since the history of India after the Buddha is so well known that it is difficult to accommodate the Mahabharata and Ramayana events thereafter .

2. Since no contemporary inscriptional. evidence is available to establish the historicity of these two epics, the only way in which an archaeologist can tackle the issue is to excavate/explore the sites associated with the respective texts . And the great advantage in approaching the problem in such a matter is that all the sites mentioned in these epics bear the same names even today. This is mainly because these sites have remained under almost continuous occupation ever since the first settlement began thereat. Hence the authenticity of their names. ‘Thus, for example, there is only one Hastinapura, one Mathura and only one Ayodhya and one Chitrakuta.

 

3. With the aforesaid background, I took up, way back in the early l95Os, excavations/exploratios at Hastinapura and other sites associated with the Mahabharata story and discovered a common material culture, (called in archaeological parlance the Painted Grey Ware Culture) in the lower levels thereof. The settlement at Hastinapura, the keysite in the story dated to a period from ca. 1100 to 800 BC. Not only were the sites interlocked with one and the same material culture but a very significant archaeological evidence also turned up fully corroborating the literary statement which runs as follows:

 

Gari gayapahrte tasmin, nagare nagasahvaye Tyaktva Nichakshur-nagaram Kausambyam sa nivatsyati “ i e. ‘‘ When the city of Hastinapura is carried away by the Gari ga, Nichakshu will abandon it and will go to Kaudambi. “

 

Excavations at Hastinapura have brought to light evidence of a massive destruction of the Painted Grey Ware settlement on account of a flood in the nearby Gari ga. Not only were large-scale erosional scars duly identified on the river-side face of the mound but even a part of the washed-away material was recovered f’rom the borings done in the river-bed f rom as much as 15 metres below the surface. Further, excavations at Kausamba, have brought to light from its lowest levels archaeological material which represents a continuum from Hastinapura.

 

4. The results of the excavations/explorations at Hastinapura and other sites associated with the Mahabharata story were publised in Anclent India, nos lO and 11 (1954-55), pp. 4-151. Archaeologists and historians all over the world have since accepted that there did exist a kernel of truth at the base of the epic, though no doubt archaeology cannot provide evidence of Lord Krishna having spilled the butter pot!

 

5. The question then arose about the historicity of the Ramayana. And the same methodology was applied in this case as well. Five sites associated with the story were excavated; viz. Ayodhya, the capita1 of the Kosala kingdom; Sringaverapura where Rama, Lakshmana and Sita were ferried across the Ganga by the Nishada chieftain Guha; Bharadvaja Asrama where they sojourned for a while to pay their obeisance to the sage Chitrakuta where they stayed for quite some time before proceeding further south, and Nandigrama from where Bharata looked after the kingdom in the absence of Rama. The work commenced in 1975 and continued up to 1986 -- a long period of twelve years. A full report on the Sringaverapura tank has since (1993) been published. Work on the other Report is in hand. It may take another four to five years to bring out these Reports.

 

6. However, the net outcome may be mentioned here very briefly. All these sites have yielded the lowest common denominator in the form of the Northern Black Polished ware (NBPW) Culture, dating back to ca. Seventeenth century BC. More importantly, sites like Bharadvaja Asrama, which is just a flat piece of land and not a mound as all other sites are, has also yielded the same kind of material in its earliest levels as did Ayodhya. Further, the occurrence of the NBP potsherds in a stray manner, often mixed up with the riversand, and the finding of postholes and clay lumps with reed impressions showed that the site was only casually inhabited with wattle and daub huts, as one might expect in the case of an asrama. These discoveries were first published in Antiquity (England), vol . LV 1981, pp. 27-34, and have been well received.

 

7. As stated in the opening paragraph, it is next to impossible to get any contemporary inscription to authenticate the historicity of these epics. Thus one has to depend on the kind of archaeological evidence such as discussed above. In sum, it seems that these epics did have a basis in historical reality, were originally sung as ballads and 1ater on, when the art of writing became common, were reduced to a textua1 format. In this process, a lot of interpolation took place and poetic imagination had its play. For example, the Mahabharata, which consists of approximately 100, 000 verses now, was at one time known as the Bharata comprising 24,000 verses and at a still earlier stage had only 8, 000 verses and was called the Jaya.

 

8. A nearly 60-page long paper entitled “ Historicity of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana: What has Archaeology to say in the Matter” was presented at an international conference on ‘New Archaeology and India’, organized by the Indian Council of Historical Research way back in 1988. Every time an enquiry is made about the publication of the paper, I am told that the proceedings are in the press. Let it be hoped that this crucial publication is out soon so that all of those interested in the subject may have a detailed picture of the issue.

 

[Gauracandra]

Wasn't there some discovery a while back of a city that was extremely irradiated in India that dated from many thousands of years ago? I always read these things but never note down where I saw it, or the article etc... Some suggest these were the effects of the Brahmastras.

 

Gauracandra

[laksri]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Dear Jijaji Prabhu,

 

A valid observation. If we assume that MAhabharat was fought in our dimensions, then I think the numbers mentioned therein might often be exaggerations. Let us not forget that the original Mahabharata has been embellished over a period of time and there are countless versions. Often each king had his chroniclers include his name too. One example is that of Cheralathan, a Chera king, who claimed to have fed both the armies. Such thing is not even mentioned in the original.

 

 

I think, we should not make sweeping decisions without giving time for research and proper analysis. rAmAyanA states millions of people where living. mAhAbharata states so. It is not correct to say, "what we like is ok, but what we don't like is corrupted version ".

 

BTW the way, it is udipi chieftian and not chEra chieftian incharge of cooking. It is a big job to organize to manage many chefs, who manged cooks. kauravas and pandavas, though they fought the war, they where ready to partake and organize cooking through common resources (debit hastinapura and riches brought by kings while coming ). pAndyan king fought on the side of kauravas (owing alleigience to throne of hastinApurA). Lord sri krishnA used to indicate to the cook's how much to prepare ( how many akshOnis to cook for) by eating the number of cashews everyday before in the camp, thouse many chashew aksonis will be killed in the war subsequent day. Remember cooking is done by males. Women wher only in nursing and service. There where actually lot of doctors and other "humanitarian" neutral teams, who are mentioned during the course of the war. But, they where completely overwhelmed by the magnitude of destruction, and sheer numbers. It was for all practical purposes non existent.

 

Any how, the scale is true , though unbelievably large scale. There are enough evidences of it.

 

Lastly, there are authentic sources of mahAbhArathA available. When I say authentic, it has earned the approval of the succesive masters who lived through last thousand years. It is not something, that is going to be offered to us, but one has to seek it. May be we don't like it, we are used to being pampered, being used to information at our mouse clicks. Information gets lost due to our lack of understanding in addition to the than lack of documents.

 

I share your concern for correctness, and authenticity. But there are somethings, that can be retrived from books, which are fading in mueseums, ignored in goverment houses, some locked in colonial documents bundles (read UK foreign office and berlin centre) and private collectors of indology in europe. I was surprised that even an american scholar in maratha territory in the 1800's could get 3 copies of surya siddhanta ( appox. 5th century book with commentary, ofcourse he could get people to translate too). The number of original copies of purAnAs and itihAsAs procured by oriental specialists from europe is mind boggling.

Above all, I recd. a email today from a person involved with digitizing old documents, that he got 3 17th and 18th century books from private collection. Great God, government has forsaked us for now, it depends on individuals and groups.

 

 

[This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-17-2002).]

[laksri]

Originally posted by shvu:

For instance, there was the Bhandarkar foundation [indians], which carried out excavation around Hastinapura during early and mid 20th century. The oldest date of activity in that area was determined to be 600 BC. I 'll pull out the exact details.

 

Also the Dwaraka excavation by Rao, which was dated as 1500 - 800 BC.

 

Cheers

 

 

I would like to point out, that because of the change of course of rivers, it is not possible to even determine, pandavAs hastinapura so easily. balarAma walks along the saraswati river, mahAbhArat describes the holy thitAs, that he visited along it and else where. Surprisingly you will find hastinApurA along the river called gangA. (Can you check bhagavatA and tell me.)

 

 

[This message has been edited by laksri (edited 01-17-2002).]

[shvu]

I would like to point out, that because of the change of course of rivers, it is not possible to even determine, pandavAs hastinapura so easily. balarAma walks along the saraswati river, mahAbhArat describes the holy thitAs, that he visited along it and else where. Surprisingly you will find hastinApurA along the river called gangA. I am not sure, whether this is printing error or name change.

Good point. Perhaps the present day Hastinapura is not that Hastinapura, which may have changed names over time. Besides the Mahabharata of today is unreliable considering that it exists in many recensions where whole cantos are different and even the common portions are ordered differently and so on indicating the Mahabharata has come a long way from it's original form.

 

Basically, our history has been lost, many portions probably for ever.

Without a doubt. Indian historians are clear that Indian history is reliably known only from the period of the Buddha onwards and that too with several points uncertain and unknown. Anything before this period is mostly speculation.

 

Cheers

 

[jijaji]

The thing that concerns me is that every time an article like this comes out in support of an ancient Indian city most devotees rush forward as if this supports their faith in a an Advanced Vedic civilization.

If fact more often than not these findings do not support a distant advanced civilzation. What has been shown is that these ancient un-earthed cities were living in the copper-bronze age! They had not even yet discovered IRON.

 

Which brings us to why modern archaeologists and geologists do not accept the antiquity of the Mahabharata war..

If a Mahabharata war had actually been fought on the scale reported, nearly five million fighting men killed each other in an 18-day battle between Delhi and Thanesar; about 130,000 chariots (with their horses), an equal number of elephants and thrice that many riding horses were deployed. This means at least as many camp-followers and attendants as fighters. A host of this size could not be supplied without a total population of 200 millions, which India did not attain till the British period, and could not have reached without plentiful and cheap iron and steel for ploughshares and farmers' tools. Iron was certainly not available in any quantity to Indian peasants before the 6th century BC.

 

just presenting the other side...

 

jijaji

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Nearly every scripture and ancient culture in the world describe a devastating flood that took place aproximately 5,000 years ago destroying civilization.

 

The same story is found in the Puranas. And this would explain why most archeological sites are very recent.

 

[Guest guest]

If u see western countries, They never give up the history or roots of their homeland.

 

That is our mistake that even we are not in a situation to excavate or show proper interest on our ancestor roots.

 

I blame indian political system for this.