orion67589 Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Hari Bhol ! Please forgive me if any of my words offend any of you. I know Lord Krishna and his energies are inconceivable even by Lord Siva and Lord Brahma So what to say of my imperfect intelligence and senses. I (Offender of the Highest degree) pretending infront of you as a humble servant of the supreme would like to put forward some questions. 1) What happens when somebody uses his freewill and commit suicide?. By doing that, I hope he is going against his predestined time determined by the planetary positions at the time of birth. Is it true that his subtle body will remain in this earth till his predestined time has reached?. Will he be allowed to take his next body only after spending that much time with his subtle body in this earth?. Is it true in the cases of people who died in accidents and disasters.? Can we find the answers in Srimad Bhagavatam ? 2)Is the description of the Universe in Srimad Bhagavatam is based on the degree of Sense restriction?. What I mean here is not related to the Universe perceived externally but perceived internally according to the degree of sense restriction?.(sorry for using the most offending nature of speculation). Hare Krishna ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajoy Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Haribol Orion! www.near-death.com has many profound near death experiences,some are of sucides.Yes sometimes after sucide a soul remains in his subtle body caught up between the two worlds. Srimad Bhagvatam also narrates nde of Ajamila and how he was saved calling upon Lord's holy names.A very similar nde account is to be found in the site where a man calls upon jesus and the lord saves him. Site is cool with all the relevant facts put together like religion(s) and why people see or experience different things.Everybody is on a different level of understanding and thus many religions,all leading to our Divine father. Combine santana dharma and those nde's and you will notice they are not at all false.Truth is really beautiful... Looking forward to hear from you soon. Hare Krishna,may he purify our conciousness! joy [This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 01-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 The following is from the letters to the editor section: The scriptures state that one who commits suicide will have to remain as a ghost for the period of time that one's body was supposed to exist. A ghost is nothing but a person with no physical body. According to the sankhya system, our body is made up of two coverings, the sukshma-sharira (subtle body) and the sthula-sharira (gross body). The gross body is made up of the panca-bhutas (earth, water, fire, air and ether), and the subtle body is made up of the mind (manas), intelligence (buddhi) and identification (ahankara). It is the subtle body which accompanies the soul into the next body at the time of death. The gross physical body has a particular duration of existence based on one's prarabdha karma. When one commits suicide, one brings one's physical body to an end prior to it having completed it's alloted time. One's next body is prepared in the akasha, ready to manifest at the end of one's alloted time (the normal death of one's physical body). Thus if one was supposed to live for 100 years, one's next body will be waiting for you after that 100 years. If for some reason one were to commit suicide at the age of 50, then one's next body will not be ready, and one will remain in an ethereal state until the ballance 50 years of existence pass. This state of existing as a ghost is a great suffering for the individual, as they lack the senses through which to act. The desires to act remain, as the mind, intelligence and identification of the subtle body are still existing. But lacking a physical body with senses, it becomes impossible to satisfy the desires one has. This leads to a hellish state of existence for the soul. One may deliver a friend or relative from this ethereal existence, and put them back on their path, by performing Vishnu puja. This is known as the shraddha ceremony, wherein food is sanctified by offering it to Vishnu, and the remnants are offered to the forefathers for their purification. If any of the forefathers had been in such a ghostly situation, they would become delivered by receiving the blessings of Vishnu prasadam. For those who are unable to perform the sraddha ceremony, the chanting of Vishnu's names should be performed, either in japam or through group bhajana. Govinda-nama-sankirtana is the most powerful method of delivering one's friends and forefathers from negative circumstances, both while they are living and after. Yours in service, Jahnava Nitai Das, Bhaktivedanta Ashram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mawab Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 how about if one lives in a way that shortens one's natural lifespam by smoking cigarettes or what might be considered subtle suicide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwin Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Many devotees overestimate people's willpower and their ability to choose between living and committing suicide. The truth is that people commit suicide to escape extreme suffering or because they are depressed. I remember devotees telling me that souls who are trapped on the hellish planets are not able to make good decisions because they are too distracted by their suffering. Insurance companies often cover death by suicide in their life insurance policies. They know that people don't always have real a choice, and they won't often commit suicide to get money for their families. At the same time, as suicide becomes more accepted for sick and terminally ill people, the doctors and hospitals will start coercing them to agree to kill themselves in order to save money. The best way to fight this is to empower people and value them and stand up for peoples self determination and give them hope, not make up silly ghost stories to threaten them with. All this talk about hell and being a ghost does not help to prevent suicide or give people a life worth living or give them the hope that things will get better. [This message has been edited by darwin (edited 01-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktashab Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Originally posted by darwin: The best way to fight this is to empower people and value them and stand up for peoples self determination and give them hope, not make up silly ghost stories to threaten them with. All this talk about hell and being a ghost does not help to prevent suicide or give people a life worth living or give them the hope that things will get better. The silly ghost stories worked on me. There's no way I would even consider committing suicide now that I know I would have to suffer as a tormented ghost. ------------------ shab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 All this talk about hell and being a ghost does not help to prevent suicide or give people a life worth living or give them the hope that things will get better. You assume that stating a reality must be for the purpose of changing the reality. I hope you can see the flaw in this line of thought. If someone says the sun hasn't risen, it does not help the sun rise, nor was it ever meant to make the sun rise. It was simply said to state the reality. As far as getting people to value their life, it requires gettng them to understand themselves beyond the body. Self esteem centers on understanding the self, not in fooling our self into thinking we are something we are not (i.e. a false bodily conception). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darwin Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Originally posted by jndas: You assume that stating a reality must be for the purpose of changing the reality. I hope you can see the flaw in this line of thought. No, I think that the stories about ghosts and hellish planets are false. Bhaktivinoda Thakura teaches that the hellish planets do not exist. [This message has been edited by darwin (edited 01-22-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajoy Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Hell is our own state of mind which we dig with our own selfish desires.www.near-death.com,many saw life on all the planetary systems,and different levels of heaven and hell also.Hell is described as a spiritual condition where one is not able to surrender unto love of Godhead(Krishna is in hell too but they cannot see him or don't want to see him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 No, I think that the stories about ghosts and hellish planets are false. Literally every single acharya in Vedic lineage accepts the existance of ghostly beings. You will find throughout their writings (regardless of which school they belong to) mentionings of such beings. Shankaracharya was himself taught by such entities. I would suggest you are confused as to what Bhaktivinoda Thakur has taught. Regardless, it is clear that Srila Prabhupada, whom you may or may not follow, has accepted the existence of ghostly beings as factual, as well as the existence of heavenly and hellish abodes. Bhaktivinoda Thakura teaches that the hellish planets do not exist. You may have misunderstood my statement: "This leads to a hellish state of existence for the soul. This has nothing to do with hellish planets, but is a description of the situation. It is a "hellish" situation to exist in. "Ghosts" live right here with us. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 01-23-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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