Spiritual Gender

[bhaktashab]

Haribol,

I have a question about gender in terms of one’s siddha deha (spiritual body) and how this relates to our material gender. Our philosophy states that the jiva souls are classed as sakti (energy) and are therefore female; yet we see that there are other males in the spiritual world apart from Krishna. Also, is one’s siddha deha eternally the same or can it change? For example Uddhava desired to worship Krishna in the mood of the gopis (or so I believe, please correct me if I am wrong), does this mean that Krishna would grant the desire of one of His eternal associates to experience another rasa, a different kind of relationship? Also we hear that our Vaisnava Acaryas were actually gopis and they knew it. How did this knowledge of their eternal identity influence their gender as males here. Where some of them effeminate? I have heard that some people thought Lord Chaitanya was effeminate. Another question, We see in so many pictures that Krishna looks feminine, it is even described that He has hips like a girl. My understanding is that if you saw Krishna then He would be unmistakably male (being the eternal Purusa) but that this is difficult to capture in paint. Does anyone have any detailed explanations of gender and how they relate to material identities? There are so many confused people who don’t know what gender they are; how has this happened? Girls that want to be boys, that are actually girls (being sakti). You see how confusing this is?

 

 

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shab.

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktashab (edited 01-24-2002).]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

This would be one topic you can work out WHEN YOU GO BACK TO VAIKUNTHA--it really is a dangerous thing to start on that here.

 

I myself do believe that one does change relationships in Vaikuntha--yet it cannot be our focus here.

 

Srila Prabhupada rightly did not spend much energy into it--talking about what we are going to do a week from the time we escape a burning house--it makes little difference till you are out.

 

 

 

[bhaktashab]

Please understand that these are my doubts about reality. I am not at all thinking offensively, it's just that this issue seems to be coming up a lot lately. One devotee friend of mine has decided to live in a homosexual relationship and he is trying to rationalise his position by saying that it is natural because gender seems to be a vague issue in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. He made the claim that we are all female anyway and that all the pictures you see show nitya siddhas who look female. It wasn't that he couldn't see what he was doing was wrong, it was more the extent to which it is wrong. I am unsure about this also. I would really like this cleared up for me so that if I ever get asked these questions myself I will be able to give the proper answer that will fully satisfy the querent.

 

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shab.

[bhaktajoy]

Dear Bhakta Don,

Very nice to see you here!!!

 

Hare Krishna!

[Pita das]

we are all female in our elationship with Krishna because he is the Adhi Purusha the frist Original enjoyer.

 

As He is the one who is the enjoyer the servants only desire is to please Him in which ever way they have to ablilty to know which ways His pleasure may best be served.

 

We all know that Srimate Radharani pleases Him the most and Her pleasure in doing so even supasses His whom is the Oringal enjoyer so much so that He desires to taste this enjoyment as Shree Chaitanya Deva.

 

I have heard Srila Prabhupada comment on the changing on ones rasa this Srila Prabhupada said In the spritual world Krishna will falciate what ever desire we have to serve Him.

At the same time we have our etenal relationship and service wanting for us to take up.As we preform service these spirtual bodies are forming.

 

Devottees at the time expressed the desire that when they meet Srila Prabhupada in the Spiritual World would His Divine Grace appear to them as he was as we know him?

 

"Srila Prabhupada told us You will know me"

But we want to see you then as we see you now Srila Prabhupada and then he said "yes that can be done."

 

"They will say this is Bhaktivedanta Swami and his nice disclips" so in serving Krishna what He wants is always formost.

There is no separte desire which is not His disire one of the basic steps in Surrendering to Krishna.

 

The eternal servant of Krishna appearing as our acaryas like His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddanta Prabhupada never forget thier position of service to Krishna althrough to us they may appear to as we are conditioned with this prision house.

 

They are comming out of commpassion for us and to satisfy the anxiety of the Lord over our hopeless condition here rotting in this material world for zillions of births from germ to devata.

 

To your friend he has a misconseption and seems not so serious about getting out of this material world.

 

There was one story my Godbrother Guru Kripa Prabhu told me about refering to HH Vishnu Maharaja the disclip of srila BV Puri Maharaja.

 

One student of a well known preacher of Krishna Consciousness made to him in Puri Dham.

 

That student expressed to Maharaja that he was very happy to pull Lord Jagganaths cart form Puri temple to Gandicya temple but he would never assit in the return yatra because this means he is takeing Krishna away from Vrindaban and back to Dawarka

 

And this in his heart he could never particapate in.!!!!!!

 

Maharaja told him "If you are at the stage of Love of Krishna when you can not tell if it is day or night we can acceapt your statement but seeing you arnt then this is simply sahaja "

 

 

[bhaktashab]

Thanks guys for the replies.

Anyone else like to comment on this?

BE BRAVE...

 

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shab.

[stonehearted]

We are female in a relative sense. As explained by Pita das earlier, Krishna is the original purusha, or enjoyer, and his shaktis are prakriti, enjoyed. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the our svarupa, except that its essence is loving service to Krishna. In fact, certain sects of "Gaudiya Vaishnavas" do encourage their devotees to externally assume a female persona, but these have been condemned by our acharyas as deviant practices based on a misunderstanding of Lord Chaitanya's teachings.

 

Your friend's immature understanding of Gaudiya philosophy enables him to rationalize his living in a same-sex relationship. It would be better for him to just be honest and deal with his desires head on. If the partners include regular hearing and chanting in the company of progressive devotees, they may become purified to the point that sexual activity becomes nil, just as serious, mature heterosexual married couples do. (This may be more difficult, but good association helps a lot. Unregulated heterosexual activity also increases attachment to the body, and so is regulated by serious devotees until it ceases altogether, not because it's repressed or because they're impotent, but beacause they can't stand distractions from their service to Krishna.) That would certainly be progress, but that's ultimately between them and and their guru(s).

 

If your friend is able to find good association, devotees who can encourage him to surrender gradually but steadily so he makes real progress, and don't condemn him as perverted or whatever, he should be able to make slow, steady advancement. It would also help if his partner has similar goals, just as in a heterosexual relationship.

 

In case this is taken as an excuse to turn this thread into another flame war focusing on homosexuality, it would be well to remember that Srila Prabhupada sometimes said that both straight and gay sex are disgusting, like wet and dry stool.

[theist]

When in a male body we have the duties of a man.When in a female body we have the duties of a woman.

 

Anything contrary strikes me as confusion.Trying to mix siddha-deha into it makes it even more so.

 

It may be of more practical benefit to us to realize ourselves as spiritsouls with an identity not dependent on the false pyschophysical circumstances that we are presently in.

[Rati]

The siddha gender deha in NO WAY relates to the gender of the sAdhaka's physical form. Why would you even ask such question, unless you totally misunderstood the nature of the siddha deha?

 

 

[raga]

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Please understand that these are my doubts about reality. I am not at all thinking offensively, it's just that this issue seems to be coming up a lot lately. One devotee friend of mine has decided to live in a homosexual relationship and he is trying to rationalise his position by saying that it is natural because gender seems to be a vague issue in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. He made the claim that we are all female anyway and that all the pictures you see show nitya siddhas who look female. It wasn't that he couldn't see what he was doing was wrong, it was more the extent to which it is wrong. I am unsure about this also. I would really like this cleared up for me so that if I ever get asked these questions myself I will be able to give the proper answer that will fully satisfy the querent.

 

 

The practical understanding of the issue is summed up by Rupa Gosvamin in his Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu:

<center>sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa

siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi

tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA

vraja-lokAnusArataH</center>

 

"Serving in the sadhaka-form as well as in the siddha-form, by following in the footsteps of the residents of Vraja-loka, one should desire to obtain a mood similar to theirs."

 

Visvanatha Cakravartipada explains the meaning of following the residents of Vraja-loka in sadhaka-form and in siddha-form in his Raga Vartma Candrika (1.11):

<blockquote>How to follow in the footsteps of the people of Vraja? In one's physical body, one follows in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Gosvami and other saints that lived in Vraja, and in the mentally conceived spiritual body, one follows in the footsteps of Srimati Rupa Manjari and other eternal associates of Krishna.</blockquote>

Srila Cakravartipada wrote his Raga Vartma Candrika to clarify the orthodox Gaudiya practice in regards to this verse. During his time, there was an on-going ill-conceived notion that one could emulate the gopis' activities and moods with one's physical body. This branch of thought was then ousted from among the orthodox Gaudiya lineage.

 

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The Sacred Realm of Raganuga-bhakti -- http://www.raganuga.org

[Guest guest]

We are not female.

We are spirit.

We can be male or female.

God is not male or female.

God can be male or female.

God is spirit.

Sakti refers not to femininity.

I refers to that which is dependent.

In relative terms,because males are strong,and females are less strong,in relation to God,the all powerfull,we are described as being dependent on the strong,as we are weaker.

This has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

It is wrong to see the jiva as male or female.

Those are bodily designations,and you are, whatever you are right now.

To consider yourself to be like the Six Goswamis,or other eternal expansions of Radha,Gopis incarnated for lila,is a mistake.

We are not them.

We are able to be either male or female,our best position,in our minds,is to consider ourselves as the aservant of the servant of Mahaprahu,using our present body to its fullest capacity to serve.

The self indulgent,selfish,self serving,attitude of focusing our day to day existence on some future fantasy,is missusing the opportunity to use our present body,and mind,in the service of Mahaprabhus lila,and his devotee.

Mahaprabhus lila,is non different from Krsna lila,this consciousness is the consciousness of the pure devotee.

Take advantage of this fact.

Wasting time and energy,trying to become something your not,wastes the opportunity to taste divine love, in the here and now.

Pleasing the devotee of Mahaprabhu,is more pleasing to Radha Krsna,then attempting to please them directly.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-05-2002).]

[Dharma]

Bhaktashab,

In some esoteric traditions such as alchemy, the soul of the male was said to be female and the soul of the female was said to be male. Others considered the soul to always be feminine.

 

There are some references to the Christ as the bridegroom of the soul. There was also a term "Yeshuah" which has several meanings it can be "without evil" or "passionless Birth" or "I'suone who is born sexless."

 

There was a time when it was an ultimate sign of attainment in some cultures for the male to change sex (much like an oyster in "r" months) or to become physically genderless. However many kind of helped it along with the practice of castration.

 

There is some reference in obscure writings to Zarathustra (Zoraaster) being born in this genderless state. Some would say that Christian religions are made up of the history & miracles of Zarathustra. It's interesting to research if interested in origins of religion.

 

[This message has been edited by Dharma (edited 05-05-2002).]