Gauracandra Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Anyone catch 60 Minutes II tonight? They had a segment on the Catholic church's increased use of exorcism. Right now there are 4 full time exorcists working in New York, and the church has appointed another for Chicago. Unfortunately, 60 Minutes decided to focus on a rogue Catholic Bishop who has brought discredit to his church. Still the official church people gave an interesting account. First there are 4 signs of demonic possession: 1) Exhibition of supernatural strength 2) Fierce reaction to holy things 3) Exhibition of hidden knowledge 4) Speaking in foreign languages (unknown to the person). The priest also gave the official words used to rebuke the demon (fallen angel) who has possessed the individual. It was an interesting program. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Heard about it, but missed it. Like Audrey Rose & Exorcist? How many cases they show? Did they mention "ghostly haunted"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted January 31, 2002 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 They showed a few cases where the person's face was blurred out. But again, unfortunately they were being done by the disgraced Bishop. He was the one who was married to a woman he met the day before in a wedding conducted by the "Reverend" Moon. Later the Pope ordered him to break off his marriage and repent. It was pointed out that he was making up his own procedures and not saying the proper things to rebuke the demon. I wished they had just gone to the traditional Bishops rather than trying to sensationalize it with this person. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Just like some people become taken over by demons for a short time, do you think it can happen that the higher spiritual entity may take posessesion of some persons sometimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Definitely. That why we do HarinAm at Timessquare! SankIrtan cannot become truly ecstatic until we become possessed. Read "Kabe gaura vane" translation for details. Without madness, chanting has no meaning. Only vain repetition. Consult RAmAnanda-samvAd for fathomless, boundless, careless joy. Demons also participate by breakdancing & chanting along. If you're asurik, wear clothes you won't mind getting ripped a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 1, 2002 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Shashi, I must think so. That good spirits can inhabit a person and cause them to do great things. In fact, there was a mystic Christian tradition (I don't think it was the Cathars, but it might have been) that views Christ in this manner. Basically their view was that Christ was a normal man, and that the Holy Spirit went within him and made him divine. This same spirit could and would inhabit people throughout time, making such individuals divine messengers. I'll research it some more and see what I can find. Any examples of such activity in Vedic scripture? Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valaya Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Originally posted by Tarun: Definitely. That why we do HarinAm at Timessquare! SankIrtan cannot become truly ecstatic until we become possessed. Read "Kabe gaura vane" translation for details. Without madness, chanting has no meaning. Only vain repetition. Consult RAmAnanda-samvAd for fathomless, boundless, careless joy. Demons also participate by breakdancing & chanting along. If you're asurik, wear clothes you won't mind getting ripped a bit. Yep, that's how I remember it! Unfortunately, Bhakti Marg Swami is strictly into choreography on chanting parties these days. His real joy lies in producing, directing and acting in plays for the pleasure of the ISKCON Toronto congregation. Must admit, they are good, though. Would be great if the shows could travel more. I'm not criticizing him in any way. His main concern is simply with the `congregation`. At least they, almost all Indians, seem happy at festivals and Sunday feasts. Otherwise, few actually live in the temple and public sankirtan is mostly a memory. There is one brahmacari however who is into book distribution I think. Hope you can visit soon. Winter just started here with our first snow. Usually there's a warm spell sometime in February. If we get along well with each other, perhaps I could drive you back to NYC (via New Vrindavan?)... valaya http://www.iskcon.net/toronto/index.html ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-01-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suryaz Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Originally posted by Shashi: Just like some people become taken over by demons for a short time, do you think it can happen that the higher spiritual entity may take posessesion of some persons sometimes? Humm yes I agree with you Shashi it can happen. It happens all the time in cyber space. Tee Hee!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valaya Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Originally posted by suryaz: Humm yes I agree with you Shashi it can happen. It happens all the time in cyber space. Tee Hee!! By golly, you might have something there...and here I was thinking some of these posts were simply ghastly, not ghostly! valaya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktashab Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 I don't recall Prabhupada ever mentioning people becoming possesed by 'good' spirits. ------------------ shab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Generally higher beings empower an individual, where as lower beings possess an individual. Possession usually occurs because the lower beings don't have a physical body of theire own to enjoy through. Thus they try to take over someone else's body and enjoy through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 JNdAs: empower vs possess. Okay, we use your terminology. Hi Low Medium Rocky... like jump-rope. Bhaktashabbyji, try more subji. Then turn to CC: word association: Post sannyAs - Puri - Fisherman - Ocean - Caught... Who said: "If I'm ghostly-haunted, who shall maintain my family?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clare Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 When I was in India, a friend and I stayed in a house at the top of a mountain in the Ghats, above Kodakainal. The family that owned the house invited us for a meal one night. It turned out to be the anniversary of the death of their daughter who had been murdered by her husband in the house we were staying in, he had punched her in the stomach. They had set up an altar with her pictures and offered the food at this altar. Then we ate the food. That night I became violently ill, my stomach, not unusual in India I guess. I just wondered though, if the food offered to Krishna is supposed to have some effect because of this, would that also be true of food offered to a deceased ancestor, if so what effect would that have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 ZZM stated: "PrasAdam's quality depends on consciousness of cook & pujArI." Clare: Do you recall any details about that offered food? In Gita's 1st chapter, Arjun mentions pinda & udaka. SP lectured on this verse in London Jun-Jul'73. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clare Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 The food was rice and a vegetable preparation, I only remember that it was alot spicier than food I would usually eat, and burnt my mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Something from the letters to editor section: One may deliver a friend or relative from this ethereal existence, and put them back on their path, by performing Vishnu puja. This is known as the shraddha ceremony, wherein food is sanctified by offering it to Vishnu, and the remnants are offered to the forefathers for their purification. If any of the forefathers had been in such a ghostly situation, they would become delivered by receiving the blessings of Vishnu prasadam. For those who are unable to perform the sraddha ceremony, the chanting of Vishnu's names should be performed, either in japam or through group bhajana. Govinda-nama-sankirtana is the most powerful method of delivering one's friends and forefathers from negative circumstances, both while they are living and after. Unfortunately few people are performing these duties properly now. Instead of worshipping Vishnu on behalf of the deceased, they are nowadays worshipping the deceased. They create altars for the dead and they offer food and other things to the dead. Instead of pleasing Vishnu which would bring ultimate benfit to the deceased, the worship is accepted by bhutas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clare Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 PAMHO Do you know what happens if a person eats food that has been accepted by a bhuta? Does chanting the Maha Mantra counteract these effects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valaya Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Originally posted by clare: PAMHO Do you know what happens if a person eats food that has been accepted by a bhuta? Does chanting the Maha Mantra counteract these effects? Chanting the mahamantra does not merely counteract all negative effects, it also provides all positive effects. Unimpedable, the purification affects not only the one chanting, but everyone and everything else as well. Still, the effects are more quickly realized if the Holy names are approached in a deeply personal way without regard for technical considerations. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to chant like a drowning person, or as if we were calling out for our mothers. Easy to see which of these is more personal, but both include a certain desperation and helplessness. As our conciousness becomes increasingly purified, our inner realizations will guide us to better connect emotionally and thus our attachment deepens. Then too, our motivations change so that offenses simply evaporate. There are certainly `no hard and fast rules` that can restrict chanting, although it is highly recommended to associate with the Holy Names constantly, somehow or other. Initially the mind tries to trick us into stopping, but this will surely pass if we just keep starting again! Soon we won't be capable of stopping for very long and the mind will have become our friend. Prabhupada tells us that we can expect the dust to fly while cleaning our house. Just keep on keeping on, with faith in God's Loving Grace rather than yourself, and rapid results are absolutely guaranteed! valaya ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-03-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Originally posted by suryaz: Humm yes I agree with you Shashi it can happen. It happens all the time in cyber space. Tee Hee!! Mr Suryaz, I don't understand how you can agree with me as I was only asking a question and not making a conclusion. Or was this part of your joke? No offense meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Yes, ViSNu-centered. For example, there must be kIrtan. Not KAlI or DurgA-kIrtan, Hari-kIrtan or KRSNa-kIrtan. In Malaysia I was chastised by ISKCON devotees for attending & performing kIrtan at zrAddha at funerals. They had some policy against it. Why? Ask them. Former ISKCON Pune president 1991-95, had a plan to raise Laxmi by regularly performing zrAddha ceremonies. GopAl KRSNa Mhrj nipped his program, calling it karma-kanda. He subsequently changed presidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suryaz Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Originally posted by Shashi: Mr Suryaz, I don't understand how you can agree with me as I was only asking a question and not making a conclusion. Or was this part of your joke? No offense meant. Dear Shashi, You wrote: Mr Suryaz, I don't understand how you can agree with me as I was only asking a question and not making a conclusion. Or was this part of your joke? Humm Yes I was just having a little fun. I am sorry if I have caused some confusion. BTW: I am not male. I am a female in all respects: I am female in my spirituality, My gender is female My psycho-physical and emotional natures are all female My mundane approach to life is typically female Shashi I am in Victoria Australia where are you? sr [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 02-04-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Do you know what happens if a person eats food that has been accepted by a bhuta? Does chanting the Maha Mantra counteract these effects? The effects will vary according to numerous variables, who accepted the offering, who prepared the offering, what was the offering, etc. In general the effects on your consciousness will be negative, and that opens up all possibilities for further influence by other entities. This is why the food offered to forefathers is not eaten by the "worshipper". It is offered to the forefather through the crows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_Baital Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Originally posted by Shashi: Just like some people become taken over by demons for a short time, do you think it can happen that the higher spiritual entity may take posessesion of some persons sometimes? In any case, possession is voluntary. If the people in the show claimed to be oppressed by the demons and wanted free of them, and then acted as if they had something inside them during the rites, it's pure charlatanism and confabulation. The Catholic Church defines authentic demonic possession as a person willfully allowing a demon to enter them and internally control/manipulate them. Demonic obsession is defined as a demon externally manipulating a person against their knowing will (assuming that they are conscious of such manipulations). The church does not officially condone or promote exorcism of the demonically possessed, because that would be interfering with the free will of the demoniac; they are possessed because they choose to be. Those dmonically obsessed can pray for deliverance/protection, as exorcism would be unnecessary in such cases; exorcism is only used to cast demons out of a person or place, not prevent them from tempting the weakminded. As for other beings possessing the willing, this is a common facet of most religions. Giving one's life to Jesus Christ is a form of divine possession, as is being moved by the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc. Therianthropy is another example (i.e., werewolves being possessed by wolf spirits, living Vampires being possessed by bat spirits, etc.). Pseudochristian propagandists try to make it out to be something obligatory and against a person's will, but that's not the case; a person converting from Satanism to Christianity does not have to undergo exorcism to drive out any demons, and demons are not in a position to possess practicing Christians. According to Christian doctrine, a demon canot enter a person without their consent, and a demon cannot enter a place where the Holy Spirit is indwelling; i.e., a practicing Christian or a church in which they congregate. The idea that one can be possessed by malevolent spirits against one's will is borrowed from eastern religions and has no real place in Christianity. The media comes up with docudramas of this sort for the purpose of scaring peole with false propaganda, and creating an atmosphere of confabulation. Based on the principle that people imitate art, more or less. More money in the pockets of charlatans posing as "exorcists", and more sensationalism for reporters to investigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarun Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Keep in mind. Don't forget. Possession is 9/10 of the Law. Whatever you possess you retain, at least for some time. Whatever you have you tend to hold. Demons inclusief. Stay tuned for more equally profound realizations & revelations. Can we contact Church Lady from SNL to share with us her thoughts? "Satan I rebuke thee!" (blame, scold, reprimand sharply) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shashi Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Shashi Originally posted by suryaz: Shashi I am in Victoria Australia where are you? Stone the crows! GEE its beena LONG time since someone asked me that! I live near Waverley Cemetry in Sydney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.