King Follett's Discourse - By Joseph Smith

[Gauracandra]

… I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.

 

I will go back to the beginning, before the [world] was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.

 

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, - I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form – like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

 

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how god came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that god was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

 

[to be continued...]

[gHari]

This is sick.

[Gauracandra]

Haribol Ghari. It certainly is a very controversial view of God. Most people believe that Mormons are Christian. But they have an entirely different view of God. I have heard some say that Mormons are to Christianity, what Christianity was to Judaism - an entirely different religion. Still, I think it important to read, so that we can understand their perspective.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra]

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a manlike us; yeah, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power” – to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious – in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you [going] to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

 

Here, then, is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you – namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one – from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

 

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and thus you learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said.

 

When you climb a ladder, you must being at the bottom, and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel: you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the vail before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world: it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I did, I think there are so many overwise men here, that they would cry “treason” and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today.

 

[To be continued…]

[bhaktashab]

What a masterful spiritual theory. It is truly brilliant. Unfortunately it is flawed, for example if God was once a man who lived on earth and then attained exaltation, who was it that created that earth he lived on? It also appeals to the selfish desire of the living entity who wants to be a master himself, a god, nay a GOD - thus denying the sweetness of intimacy required in order to have a truly surrendered loving relationship with God.

 

Keep it coming Gauracandra, post it all at once

 

 

 

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shab.

[atma]

 

Thanks Lord Krsna for sending Srila Prabhupada to teach us who is God!

[Gauracandra]

I'll try to post more. That is one major flaw I see in the view that God was once a man. Basically if God was once a man, then who was the God of this God, the father of the son.... So it goes on into infinity. The reason I'm posting this is because I think it is important to understand one of the fastest growing religions in the world today. This Friday the Olympics will be taking place in Salt Lake City, Utah, the spiritual home of Mormonism. I for one will be looking for any symbolism they may impart to their opening ceremonies. After posting the full text (it will take a while) I'll also point out a number of other differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity (eg. Satan and Christ are brothers, preexistence of the soul in heaven before entering a human body, baptisms for the dead etc...). Here is the next part.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra]

[This next section is interesting as it lays out the pantheistic views of Mormons. They do not worship many gods (polytheistic) or one god (monotheistic) but rather accept a head God with a council of other gods].

 

I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible. I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible - Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith – in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh – the head. Sheit – grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the Baith there. An old Jew, without authority, added the word. He thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read first, “The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods.” That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signifies to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus, the head God brought forth the Gods in grand council.

 

I will transpose and simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand counselors sat at the head in yonder heavens, and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at that time…

 

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to learn the only true God and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him and how to ask so as to receive an answer.

 

When we understand the character of God and know how to come to him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us.

 

Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost. They account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a [fool]. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow; and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the worlds; and I will associate myself with him.

 

You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, “Don’t the Bible say he created the world?” And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word [baurau], which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize – the same as a man would organize materials to build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos – chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed: they may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.

 

[To be continued….]

[bhaktashab]

OOPS

Sorry I didn't realise you were typing it all.

 

 

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shab.

[bhaktashab]

Can someone please describe what it means to attain liberation in Vaikuntha? What does Vishnu award to the jiva?

 

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shab.

[suryaz]

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Can someone please describe what it means to attain liberation in Vaikuntha? What does Vishnu award to the jiva?

 

 

Can someone please describe what it means to attain liberation in Vaikuntha? What does Vishnu award to the jiva?

 

 

Can one really say one knows “what it means to attain Vaikunta”?

 

However Rupa Goswami explains the means for the award of Vaikunta-vas in his “Bhakti-rasamrita-sindu” Eastern division: Second Wave (The Methods of Realisation). In 303 of this section Rupa discussing the attainment of womanhood status of the sages of Da.ndaka forest in Ram lila said:

 

“He who has great amorous desire (for Krsna), but acts only by means of the path of injunctions (Vaidhi-bhakti), become a queen in the city (i.e. Dwarka)”

 

 

My view of this is that those who having found their primary bhakti-rupa or form (i.e. male actor or female actor in one of the 5 primary rasa) will attain the appropriate bhakti-swarup in Vaikunta if “desire (for Krsna)” is enacted “only by means of the path of injunctions (Vaidhi-maarga)”.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 02-05-2002).]

[bhaktashab]

Sorry Suryaz that's not what I meant. There are four attainments given to the jiva upon achieving liberation in Vaikuntha. I just can't remember them all so I was wondering if anyone else knew them. I know that they are relevant to this discussion.

 

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shab.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Perhaps you are refering to the four kinds of liberation, all of which one receives upon attaining Vaikuntha. These four are:

 

sarupya - attaining a body similar to the Lord.

 

salokya - attaining the same planet as the Lord.

 

sarshti - attaining the same oppulences as the Lord.

 

samipya - attaining the association of the Lord.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In terms of the present topic, it does seem valid in one sense to say one becomes a god, as one attains all opulences and features of the Lord. But the distinction between the Supreme Lord and the living entities is eternal, nor did the Lord never attain "godhood". I'm not sure what the Mormon view on this is, but it does sound like God became God.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 02-05-2002).]

[bhaktashab]

Originally posted by jndas:

Perhaps you are refering to the four kinds of liberation, all of which one receives upon attaining Vaikuntha. These four are:

 

sarupya - attaining a body similar to the Lord.

 

salokya - attaining the same planet as the Lord.

 

sarshti - attaining the same opulences as the Lord.

 

samipya - attaining the association of the Lord.

That's it. Thanks very much Prabhu.

 

Attaining a body similar to the Lord and attaining the same opulences as the Lord. I wonder if this is cohesive with Joseph Smith's ideas. Quite often we speak of Christians as worshipers of Vishnu in a mood of awe and reverence. I wonder how much of the actual truth is there in the philosophy of Joseph Smith.

 

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shab.

[Gauracandra]

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man. But it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall, therefore, just touch upon it; for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead – namely, the soul, the mind of man, the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning. But it is not so. The very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine. I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a [fool] before I get through, if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

 

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principle? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. [Referred to the old Bible] How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth, and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

 

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is coequal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends re only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

 

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.

 

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man – on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man – the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two, then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

 

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

 

[To be continued...]

[Gauracandra]

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

 

This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know you believe them….

 

The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead… for it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fullness of the dispensation of times – a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man…

 

You don’t know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history, I cannot tell it; I shall never undertake it. I don’t blame anyone for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. I never did harm any man since I was born in the world. My voice is always for peace. I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor do anything to the harm of my fellow-man. When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen.

 

[The End]

[bhaktashab]

I think this verse and purport, from Sri Brahma Samhita 5.21 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, explains more accurately the difference between the jiva souls and the Supreme Godhead.

 

The same jiiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

PURPORT

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jives are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krsna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Gita it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

 

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shab.

[Gauracandra]

I found several points interesting in this sermon by Joseph Smith. While I don't agree with all, some points are similar to the Vedic teachings. For instance, the notion of progress through varying levels of godhood. While we do not view this as the aim of spiritual practice, it is true that we accept that by living a pious and virtuous life one can either progress or digress (if a sinful life) to higher or lower life forms. One can move to higher and higher heavenly life forms, each with a greater expanse of perfection.

 

Another point of interest is that Joseph Smith acknowledges the eternality of the spirit. The spirit was not created and will never be destroyed. While not discussed in this sermon, they also have a sort of view of karmic law. According to Mormon theology (as I understand it), everyone lives in the world of spirits. Then God sends down these spirits to take birth in bodies, in order to engage in a test of worthiness. We are given the freewill and choice to engage in good or bad conduct. Now, then why are some people born in poor families, others in rich ones? or some are born in certain races etc.... According to Mormon theology, we are placed in a body based on our prior conduct in the spirit world (which we have no remembrance of). Thus if we behaved good or bad, in this world of spirits, we enter into particular human bodies. From their perspective, Satan was cast out of heaven because he refused to take on a human form, thus going against God's plan. He remains solely as spirit.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra]

Now getting a little bit further into Mormon theology, we have the so called 'Adam-God' doctrine. This was first proposed by Brigham Young (the second president of the Church). His view was that the God of the Old Testament was Adam after he attained Godhood. Essentially, God placed the spirit in Adam's body. After eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge he fell down. But to Mormons the eating of this fruit was good (not bad), because it is what caused man to be sent out into the world. It gave man a chance to test his worthiness, by truly becoming human. Brigham Young's view was that Adam attained Godhood, and inherited this planet to rule over. Thus the God that is mentioned (besides the very beginning) in the old testament was Adam. It should be noted that this view was later rejected by the church, and is not the current philosophy. The current philosophy places Adam and Jesus as brothers (along with Satan). Satan refused to accept a body and is only spirit. Adam 'fell down' thus giving man a chance to become human. And I think Jesus's role was not so much to absolve people of their sins, but rather to show the way that others could become deified. Something like that (it gets a bit convoluted). Essentially, Jesus is seen as a necessary partner with Adam to bring about the fulfillment of God's plan.

[Gauracandra]

I have a question regarding Brahma's creation of the universe. Did he create 'ex nihilo' - out of nothing? or did he arrange the materials that were provided within the universe itself?

[Avinash]

As I understand it, according to Bhagwatam, he used the lotus to create the universe. So, it was not out of nothing.

[Gauracandra]

There is the classic question of whether God knows everything. From the Mormon perspective, God is a physical person bound by space and time. So when we ask does God know the future (and thus does man have freewill), from a Mormon perspective the answer is no God doesn't know the future (and yes man has freewill).

 

Another major break from traditional Christianity, is the notion of original sin. In the Mormon world view, there is no original sin. Each person comes into the world, and must live and succeed and fail based on their own merits. We are not considered fallen because of the decisions that Adam made.

 

As such, Mormons do not focus much on the crucifixion of Christ. Rather, to them Christ's prayers at the garden of Gethsemane are the most important. You will not find the symbol of the cross in any Mormon temple.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Inthe Bhagavatam there are two distinct levels of creation, known as sarga (primary creation) and visarga (secondary creation). In sarga, Maha Vishnu creates the sixteen principles of matter (senses, sense objects, mind, intelligence, etc.). These are the sixteen raw ingredients that make up the material existence. This sixteen is also seen as 24 items, 8 items, etc., according to other angles of vision.

 

In the stage of visarga, or secondary creation, Brahma utilizes these sixteen principles to "create" the planets and their inhabitants. Thus Brahma is actually an engineer, manipulating ingredients provided by Maha Vishnu.

 

[Gauracandra]

Another interesting facet to Mormon theology is Baptism of the dead. For years, Christian denominations have argued over the proper way to perform baptisms. Can it be a little water sprinkled, or full immersion. Can the participant be a child, or must they be old enough to make the decision on their own.

 

Mormon's came up with an entirely different add on to this debate. They allow baptisms to take place for the departed. Because of this, the largest geneological database in the world is in Salt Lake City (I believe that is where it is). The Mormons have carefully noted down births and deaths to the tune of over 1 billion individuals in their database.

 

They have received some bad publicity for this practice. For instance, at one point they were caught performing Mormon baptisms for dead holocaust Jews. They had accumulated the names of these individuals and would perform the baptisms by proxy. By proxy means that an individual takes on the role of the dead person, and engages in a full immersion baptism.

 

Baptisms are important in Mormonism, because it is a key to entering heaven. In Mormon cosmology, the universe is divided into 3 sections: the terrestial, the telestial, and the celestial. Since spirit is never destroyed, there really isn't a notion of hell (as far as I can tell). Those who lived impiously will live on the terrestial plane (basically earth). Those who are pious, but did not follow the Mormon code go to the telestial plane (a sort of heavenly abode). And the most worthy go to the celestial plane and become gods themselves.

 

Baptisms give a person a second chance to enter this celestial plane. Essentially when they are resurrected, they will be given the option to choose or not to choose. Those who have not been baptised will not be given this option.